Looking at doing a good Crit Fishing Build with range weapon, but not sure on how to calculate the math for the % to land a crit per turn.
Build idea is Eladrin Variant Elf for heavy crossbow proficiency with origin replacement option and then later the Elven Accuracy feat. Going Rogue for Steady Aim for advantage and additional sneak attack damage to maximize crits. Will also pick up Crossbow feat for extra attack in Fighter multiclass and Piercer feat to roll another crit damage. Fighter multiclass will give Champion for crit on 19 to 20 and give extra attack. Other benefits such as Arcane Trickster will assist with spells such as misty step to teleport since I won't move while sniping and silvery barbs to assist in advantage.
So, what is the crit % per turn if:
Champion Fighter crit 19 to 20 while Steady Aim giving advantage to hit, also adding Elven Accuracy. Then second attack with Extra Attack.
In my opinion, the best way to take advantage of these types of builds is with sharpshooter/Great Weapon master feat. Not so much for the crit itself, which doesn't double the +10, but to make your dps more consistent even without crit.
Regarding the class, obviously you will have more critical chance if you make more attacks. The problem is that you won't be able to do it with a crossbow (except with the Crossbow Expert feat, which is too many feats), so that champion better go with a longbow.
With the rogue you play it with a single roll, but if you play well you will add your sneak attack, which makes your crit much more effective.
Another build to do this is a hexblade with an improved pact weapon and Thirsting Blade. With Darkness or Shadow of moil you will attack with advantage every turn. The main problem with this build is someone counterspelling or dispel magic on you. But otherwise it works very well.
Let's start with the odds of a crit with 1 attack from a level 1 commoner...You need to roll a 20 on a d20, so the odds are 1 in 20, or 5%.
What if the commoner has advantage? Well, now you need to roll a 20 on one of 2 d20s. At this point the trick of figuring out the odds of the opposite and subtracting them from 1 becomes easier...so what are the odds that you DON'T roll a 20 on either dice? Well on a single die it is 19 in 20, or 95%...we can double that to 2 dice by squaring the number...so .95*.95=.9025...1-.9025=.0975 or 9.75%.
What if the commoner is an elf that has the elven accuracy feat some how (not possibly by rules...but we are slowly making the math more complex...so go with me.) At that point we are adding a third die...so it's just .95 cubed instead of squared...so .95*.95*.95=.857375. 1-.857375=.142625 or 14.2625%
Alright...that's our elven accuracy. Now...what about increasing the crit range.
Well, we are just doubling the range, right...need to roll a 19 or 20. So the base odds are now 10% instead of 5%. so for super advantage champion it would be 1-(.90*.90*.90)=1-.729= 27.1%. But remember, only a natural 20 automatically hits. The 19 only hits if the modified attack roll beats the monster's AC still...so in practice the crit chance is up to 27.1% but could be as low as 14.2625% on high AC monsters.
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Founding Member of the High Roller Society.(Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
In my opinion, the best way to take advantage of these types of builds is with sharpshooter/Great Weapon master feat. Not so much for the crit itself, which doesn't double the +10, but to make your dps more consistent even without crit.
Regarding the class, obviously you will have more critical chance if you make more attacks. The problem is that you won't be able to do it with a crossbow (except with the Crossbow Expert feat, which is too many feats), so that champion better go with a longbow.
With the rogue you play it with a single roll, but if you play well you will add your sneak attack, which makes your crit much more effective.
Another build to do this is a hexblade with an improved pact weapon and Thirsting Blade. With Darkness or Shadow of moil you will attack with advantage every turn. The main problem with this build is someone counterspelling or dispel magic on you. But otherwise it works very well.
So my character concept feels good to me from what I am seeing on the numbers.
By level 9:
Eladrin Variant Elf for Heavy Crossbow proficiency with Origin Replacement Option.
Standard Array of 15 Dexterity then 17 Dexterity with racial bonus, and finally a 18 Dexterity with the half feat Elven Accuracy at level 4 Rouge ASI or feat bonus.
Eladring Variant Elf also gives Misty Step for retreating without moving, so you can still use Steady aim.
Rogue level 3 gives advantage with Steady aim, then Rogue level 4 with Elven Accuracy gives "extra advantage".
Rogue level 3 for subclass Arcane Trickster for spells such as Absorb Elements, Shield, and Silver Barbs; and eventually more Misty Step. More defenses if up close to an enemy and possible ways to get advantage with Silvery Barbs.
Fighter level 1 for Archery to increase hit chance with the already extra advantage.
Fighter level 2 for Action Surge.
Fighter level 3 for Champion giving critical hits on 19 and 20.
Fighter level 4 for the feat Crossbow Expert to no longer worry about disadvantage at close range but also Extra Attack potential.
Fighter level 5 for Extra Attack.
So critical hit chance per turn by going to level 9 in this way with the first 4 levels being Rogue then last 5 levels being Fighter is:
Level 1: 5%
Level 2: 5%
Level 3: 9.75% (Steady Aim)
Level 4: 14.27% (Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy)
Level 5: 14.27%
Level 6: 14.27% (Action Surge would be 18.55%)
Level 7: 21.7% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy) (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 8: 21.7% (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 9: 34.39% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy and Crossbow Expert combined with Extra Attack) (Action Surge would be 46.86%)
Average damage by level 9 would be the following if we assume a hit on both attacks with Steady Aim on the first to trigger Elven Accuracy and Sneak Attack:
26 damage on average at base = (Heavy Crossbow) 1d10 + 4 (Dexterity 18) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d10 + 4
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 51 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 37 damage instead.)
45 damage on average with Action Surge = 4d10 + 16 + 2d6
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 70 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 56 damage instead.)
The way to figure out critical chance per turn when rolling multiple attacks is to figure out the chance of not getting a critical on any one die, and then exponentiating. Thus:
Crit chance 10%, one attack without advantage: your chance of not getting a critical is 0.9 (90%)
Crit chance 10%, one attack with advantage: your chance of not getting a critical is 0.9 x 0.9 (81%)
Crit chance 10%, one attack with elven accuracy: your chance of not getting a critical is 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 (73%)
Crit chance 10%, one attack with elven accuracy, one normal attack: your chance of not getting a critical is 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 (66%)
etc
However, I'm not sure why you care about crit chance per turn there, as there don't seem to be any once per turn effects.
The sneak attack damage is once per turn...but the key to that (if you are reasonably sure you will hit with all of your attacks) is to put the SA on the last attack of the round...or the first attack that comes up as a crit.
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Founding Member of the High Roller Society.(Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
The sneak attack damage is once per turn...but the key to that (if you are reasonably sure you will hit with all of your attacks) is to put the SA on the last attack of the round...or the first attack that comes up as a crit.
If your hit chance is less than 90%, waiting for the last attack will be a net loss of damage.
Here's the problem you're going to run into with this build... the particular combination of subclasses you took means you'll get much higher chances of critting each turn than if you had just gone straight with one class, but you also don't have a lot you can DO with that crit compared to other classes. By 8th level you're only a 3rd level Rogue, so your Sneak Attack is only adding 2d6 to one attack per round. You've got pretty good odds of bumping that up to 4d6 with your increased crit odds... or you could just go full Rogue and add 4d6 guaranteed with just about every round of combat, with pretty good odds of landing a crit and turning it into 8d6.
I dunno, I get what you're going for and I think it will work in the long run, but it definitely feels like it's more of a gimmick than a reliable playstyle. Part of me feels like you'd be better off just taking a single dip into Hexblade Warlock for Hexblade's Curse... you can't use it as often, but against big targets you can get that 19-20 crit range.
I think it would also be useful to take a class like Paladin with their smites, or subclasses like Battlemaster Fighter or Swords Bard which let you tack on damage to an attack after it lands (so you can save it for when you get that crit).
Here's the problem you're going to run into with this build... the particular combination of subclasses you took means you'll get much higher chances of critting each turn than if you had just gone straight with one class, but you also don't have a lot you can DO with that crit compared to other classes. By 8th level you're only a 3rd level Rogue, so your Sneak Attack is only adding 2d6 to one attack per round. You've got pretty good odds of bumping that up to 4d6 with your increased crit odds... or you could just go full Rogue and add 4d6 guaranteed with just about every round of combat, with pretty good odds of landing a crit and turning it into 8d6.
I dunno, I get what you're going for and I think it will work in the long run, but it definitely feels like it's more of a gimmick than a reliable playstyle. Part of me feels like you'd be better off just taking a single dip into Hexblade Warlock for Hexblade's Curse... you can't use it as often, but against big targets you can get that 19-20 crit range.
I think it would also be useful to take a class like Paladin with their smites, or subclasses like Battlemaster Fighter or Swords Bard which let you tack on damage to an attack after it lands (so you can save it for when you get that crit).
Thank you for the feedback and the way you presented it.
A 9th level Rogue assuming its attack hits with same weapon, race, and EA feat for similar comparison, except bonus Dexterity to 20 instead of Crossbow feat for extra +1 to hit and damage:
— Crits 14.27% per turn instead of 34.39% per turn, a 20.12% critical hit chance loss.
— Average damage is 27 (1d10 + 5 + 5d6) compared to the 26. (Although original build is 28 if point buy or good roll instead of standard array.)
— Average crit damage is 51 (2d10 + 5 + 10d6) compared to 37 to 51 (depending on if crit is on sneak attack.) [Original build is 39 to 53 if point buy or good rolls for stats in Dex.]
— None of this counts Action Surge to go nuclear
The original build can deal more base damage and more crit damage; however the accuracy of my original build to do base damage may be less since it relies on the extra attack hitting with its +2 to hit on fighting style, but the crit chance is massively increased.
Here's the problem you're going to run into with this build... the particular combination of subclasses you took means you'll get much higher chances of critting each turn than if you had just gone straight with one class, but you also don't have a lot you can DO with that crit compared to other classes. By 8th level you're only a 3rd level Rogue, so your Sneak Attack is only adding 2d6 to one attack per round. You've got pretty good odds of bumping that up to 4d6 with your increased crit odds... or you could just go full Rogue and add 4d6 guaranteed with just about every round of combat, with pretty good odds of landing a crit and turning it into 8d6.
I dunno, I get what you're going for and I think it will work in the long run, but it definitely feels like it's more of a gimmick than a reliable playstyle. Part of me feels like you'd be better off just taking a single dip into Hexblade Warlock for Hexblade's Curse... you can't use it as often, but against big targets you can get that 19-20 crit range.
I think it would also be useful to take a class like Paladin with their smites, or subclasses like Battlemaster Fighter or Swords Bard which let you tack on damage to an attack after it lands (so you can save it for when you get that crit).
I totally agree with you. What happens is that the OP seems to want to make a build to fish crits without caring about anything else. In that regard, this build works perfectly. I can't think of another build with a higher critical chance.
Now, in my opinion, any of the classes involved, in singleclass is going to be better than that multiclass. Of course, it will not have that brutal rate of critics. I especially think that the Soulkinfe rogue with elven accuracy + sharpshooter is a tremendously effective build. But that's another build that, moreover, is never going to have a crit ratio as high as the one the OP is proposing (But it comes close). Though when you do a critical, you're going to do tremendous damage. Much more than the build proposed by the OP. And the damage is going to be very consistent even without crit. But like I say, that's another build.
Here's the problem you're going to run into with this build... the particular combination of subclasses you took means you'll get much higher chances of critting each turn than if you had just gone straight with one class, but you also don't have a lot you can DO with that crit compared to other classes. By 8th level you're only a 3rd level Rogue, so your Sneak Attack is only adding 2d6 to one attack per round. You've got pretty good odds of bumping that up to 4d6 with your increased crit odds... or you could just go full Rogue and add 4d6 guaranteed with just about every round of combat, with pretty good odds of landing a crit and turning it into 8d6.
I dunno, I get what you're going for and I think it will work in the long run, but it definitely feels like it's more of a gimmick than a reliable playstyle. Part of me feels like you'd be better off just taking a single dip into Hexblade Warlock for Hexblade's Curse... you can't use it as often, but against big targets you can get that 19-20 crit range.
I think it would also be useful to take a class like Paladin with their smites, or subclasses like Battlemaster Fighter or Swords Bard which let you tack on damage to an attack after it lands (so you can save it for when you get that crit).
I totally agree with you. What happens is that the OP seems to want to make a build to fish crits without caring about anything else. In that regard, this build works perfectly. I can't think of another build with a higher critical chance.
Now, in my opinion, any of the classes involved, in singleclass is going to be better than that multiclass. Of course, it will not have that brutal rate of critics. I especially think that the Soulkinfe rogue with elven accuracy + sharpshooter is a tremendously effective build. But that's another build that, moreover, is never going to have a crit ratio as high as the one the OP is proposing (But it comes close). Though when you do a critical, you're going to do tremendous damage. Much more than the build proposed by the OP. And the damage is going to be very consistent even without crit. But like I say, that's another build.
So the build is focused on critical hits, but not in disregard of everything else. If I went Fighter 16 and Rogue 4, then maybe that would be true.
At level 20 of this build going Fighter 5 and Rogue 15 (FS) compared to Rogue (R) at 20:
To hit is +13 (FS) compared to +11 (R). (FS) gets edge due to Archery Fighting Style.
Average damage if all attacks hit per turn without crits is 49 (FS) compared to 45 (R). (FS) gets edge due to Extra Attack.
Average crit chance per turn is 34.39% (FS) compared to 14.26% (R). (FS) gets edge due to Extra Attack and Champion subclass.
Average crit damage with Piercer feat is 60 without Sneak Attack or 88 with Sneak Attack (FS) compared to 86 (R). (FS) has same critical hit chance of 14.26% event without the Extra Attack, so the chances of getting the first attack to crit is the same for Sneak Attack except (FS) deals more damage if so; (FS) gets edge.
(FS) also has Action Surge and plenty of spells such as Misty Step, Counterspell, Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silver Barbs.
Plenty of other defensive and social abilities within the Rogue class and Fighter's Second Wind.
In my opinion, the best way to take advantage of these types of builds is with sharpshooter/Great Weapon master feat. Not so much for the crit itself, which doesn't double the +10, but to make your dps more consistent even without crit.
Regarding the class, obviously you will have more critical chance if you make more attacks. The problem is that you won't be able to do it with a crossbow (except with the Crossbow Expert feat, which is too many feats), so that champion better go with a longbow.
With the rogue you play it with a single roll, but if you play well you will add your sneak attack, which makes your crit much more effective.
Another build to do this is a hexblade with an improved pact weapon and Thirsting Blade. With Darkness or Shadow of moil you will attack with advantage every turn. The main problem with this build is someone counterspelling or dispel magic on you. But otherwise it works very well.
A level 20 Rouge (R) compared to this multiclass of level 5 Fighter with 15 levels of Rouge (FS):
To hit -2. (R) is more likely to miss attacks.
Average damage per turn if attacks hit -4. (R) is dealing less damage.
Critical hit chance per turn is -20.13%. (R) is dealing a critical hit on an average of 1 out of every 2 encounters if you consider encounters to be around 3 to 4 turns, instead of around once every encounter. Meaning around -15 damage less per every other encounter on top of other damage reductions at minimum. (Don't know how to calculate the average loss here, just the minimum.)
Critical hit total damage is -2.
(FS) has a more affective critical by % to hit and damage.
(FS) has super advantage on its first attack every turn even against other enemies that can see in magical darkness, doesn't require spell slots, and doesn't need to worry about counterspell or dispel magic if comparing to Warklock.
Taking Elven Accuracy, Crossbow Expert, and Piercer feats isn't too many feats if Dexterity is the only stat interested in maxing. With Point Buy or Standard Array, you max out Dexterity by level 12 and have all three of these feats; since two of these feats are half feats. Longbow instead of Crossbow would reduce the average damage per turn if all attacks hit by -2 and critical hit total damage would also be reduced by -3. The Crossbow Expert feat is also useful for close range fighting if forced into the situation.
- We were comparing two lvl9 builds (what you had proposed). What you said was R4 F5, whose sneak attack is 2d6 (one per turn). A lvl 9 rogue does 5d6 (on its only attack).
- What you propose now is R15 F5. Well, you would have 2 attacks of 1d10+5, and one with +8d6 from the sneak attack. The lvl20 rogue would do an attack + sneak attack. For simplicity we will assume that you do it with a crossbow as well. 1d10+5+10d6. That makes an average of 52 (5 from 1d10 +10 flat +4 from each d6) vs 50 (5 from 1d10 +5 flat +4 from d6). If you get the critical the thing goes off, I don't think it's necessary to do numbers.
- What I was saying was to replace the feat Crossbow Expert (necessary for the extra attack) with Sharpshooter, so each turn you will add another fixed +10 to the damage. Obviously going up to lvl 20 you could find room for it. But at lvl9 you don't have it. And of course, if you use Sharpshooter, then the extra attack becomes much juicier. Even then, if you could get the adv by other means, the lvl20 Fighter's 4 attacks are tremendous (+60 flat damage each turn if all attacks hit). But there you would have to collaborate with your teammates or rely on a magic item, which is completely outside the analysis of a build.
In short, the lvl 20 rogue is going to do more damage on crits and about the same damage without crit. But, in addition, the lvl 20 rogue (or fighter) gains one more ASIS (or feat). And specifically, the rogue gains Elusive and Stroke of Luck which are fantastic features.
Where your build clearly comes out on top is in crit rate (having more chance to hit is kind of marginal when we're talking about making your attacks with 3 dice). And if you want to do that, go ahead. As I told you before, I can't think of a build with a higher critical rate.
The big problem is that you're saddled with Champion, and Champions are terrible.
I'm all good in hearing you out, since I can get off the Champion saddle; however I don't see a counter argument that backs your claim currently in this specific multiclass example, since the numbers look good so far with better to hit, damage, crit %, and crit damage compare to a level 20 rogue for example. I agree if you mean level 20 champion, but no one is suggesting that yet.
The big problem is that you're saddled with Champion, and Champions are terrible.
I'm all good in hearing you out, since I can get off the Champion saddle; however I don't see a counter argument that backs your claim currently in this specific multiclass example, since the numbers look good so far with better to hit, damage, crit %, and crit damage compare to a level 20 rogue for example. I agree if you mean level 20 champion, but no one is suggesting that yet.
Champions are the best for crit fishing. Crit fishing is a pretty poor tactic, though. You're getting a 34.4% crit rate per round, as compared to the 18.5% of a non-champion that's otherwise identical, so you're landing an extra 0.159 crits per turn; at level 9 using a longbow each crit is a bonus 11.5 damage, so you bonus dpr is 1.83.
A Battle Master using his superiority dice for damage will do an average of +18 base damage, and because those dice can crit too the real bonus is around +21, meaning it takes 12 rounds for the Champion setup to catch up. 12 rounds per short rest is not unheard of in 5e, but it's a severe anomaly, and the battle master is also applying status effects. A psi warrior would have a base 8 psi dice per day at level 9 and probably recovers another 2; with 12 Int that's 55 damage per day (with crits, 60+) and you need 33 rounds combat per day for the champion to catch up. And so on.
- We were comparing two lvl9 builds (what you had proposed). What you said was R4 F5, whose sneak attack is 2d6 (one per turn). A lvl 9 rogue does 5d6 (on its only attack).
- What you propose now is R15 F5. Well, you would have 2 attacks of 1d10+5, and one with +8d6 from the sneak attack. The lvl20 rogue would do an attack + sneak attack. For simplicity we will assume that you do it with a crossbow as well. 1d10+5+10d6. That makes an average of 52 (5 from 1d10 +10 flat +4 from each d6) vs 50 (5 from 1d10 +5 flat +4 from d6). If you get the critical the thing goes off, I don't think it's necessary to do numbers.
- What I was saying was to replace the feat Crossbow Expert (necessary for the extra attack) with Sharpshooter, so each turn you will add another fixed +10 to the damage. Obviously going up to lvl 20 you could find room for it. But at lvl9 you don't have it. And of course, if you use Sharpshooter, then the extra attack becomes much juicier. Even then, if you could get the adv by other means, the lvl20 Fighter's 4 attacks are tremendous (+60 flat damage each turn if all attacks hit). But there you would have to collaborate with your teammates or rely on a magic item, which is completely outside the analysis of a build.
In short, the lvl 20 rogue is going to do more damage on crits and about the same damage without crit. But, in addition, the lvl 20 rogue (or fighter) gains one more ASIS (or feat). And specifically, the rogue gains Elusive and Stroke of Luck which are fantastic features.
Where your build clearly comes out on top is in crit rate (having more chance to hit is kind of marginal when we're talking about making your attacks with 3 dice). And if you want to do that, go ahead. As I told you before, I can't think of a build with a higher critical rate.
R4/F5 in the original example would still be good with EA feat at R4 and Crossbow Expert feat at F5.
R4/F5 in the original example compared to R9:
R4/F5: 1d10 (5) + 4 + 2d6 (7) & 1d10 (5) + 4
To hit = 10 (+1)
Average damage per turn if all attacks hit = 25 (-2)
Critical hit chance per turn = 34.39% (+20.13%)
Average critical hit total damage = 31 to38 (-13)
Average a critical hit every 3 to 4 turn encounters.
Can also Action Surge for an average damage of all attacks hitting at 42 and with a critical average chance of 46.85% instead for a total crit average damage of 48 to 65.
R9: 1d10 (5) + 5 + 5d6 (17)
To hit = 9 (-1)
Average damage per turn if attack hits = 27 (+2)
Critical hit chance per turn = 14.26% (-20.13%)
Average critical hit total damage = 51 (+13)
Average a critical hit every other 3 to 4 turn encounters.
I would say that R9 has more damage potential overall and R4/F5 has more damage accuracy, so both are good build options for a middle level campaign.
R15/F5 in the expanded example compared to R20:
R4/F5: 1d10 (5) + 5 + 8d6 (28) & 1d10 (5) + 5
To hit = 13 (+2)
Average damage per turn if all attacks hit = 48 (+3)
Critical hit chance per turn = 34.39% (+20.13%)
Average critical hit total damage = 54 to 82 (-4)
Average a critical hit every 3 to 4 turn encounters.
Can also Action Surge for an average damage of all attacks hitting at 68 and with a critical average chance of 46.85% instead for a total crit average damage of 74 to 102.
R9: 1d10 (5) + 5 + 10d6 (35)
To hit = 11 (-2)
Average damage per turn if attack hits = 45 (-3)
Critical hit chance per turn = 14.26% (-20.13%)
Average critical hit total damage = 86 (+4)
Average a critical hit every other 3 to 4 turn encounters.
R15/F5 will now outperform overall; although R9 can still outshine in specific encounters if it gets the same amount of crits.
I think the build seems to have more potential due to the high crit rate and Action Surge, but they are comparable in general. I could do Fighter 16 and Rogue 4 for a critical average per turn of 55.62%, but that would have less average damage and less crit damage; however critting every other turn sounds fun. (But I wouldn't do that build since the damage is less.)
In my opinion, the best way to take advantage of these types of builds is with sharpshooter/Great Weapon master feat. Not so much for the crit itself, which doesn't double the +10, but to make your dps more consistent even without crit.
Regarding the class, obviously you will have more critical chance if you make more attacks. The problem is that you won't be able to do it with a crossbow (except with the Crossbow Expert feat, which is too many feats), so that champion better go with a longbow.
With the rogue you play it with a single roll, but if you play well you will add your sneak attack, which makes your crit much more effective.
Another build to do this is a hexblade with an improved pact weapon and Thirsting Blade. With Darkness or Shadow of moil you will attack with advantage every turn. The main problem with this build is someone counterspelling or dispel magic on you. But otherwise it works very well.
So my character concept feels good to me from what I am seeing on the numbers.
By level 9:
Eladrin Variant Elf for Heavy Crossbow proficiency with Origin Replacement Option.
Standard Array of 15 Dexterity then 17 Dexterity with racial bonus, and finally a 18 Dexterity with the half feat Elven Accuracy at level 4 Rouge ASI or feat bonus.
Eladring Variant Elf also gives Misty Step for retreating without moving, so you can still use Steady aim.
Rogue level 3 gives advantage with Steady aim, then Rogue level 4 with Elven Accuracy gives "extra advantage".
Rogue level 3 for subclass Arcane Trickster for spells such as Absorb Elements, Shield, and Silver Barbs; and eventually more Misty Step. More defenses if up close to an enemy and possible ways to get advantage with Silvery Barbs.
Fighter level 1 for Archery to increase hit chance with the already extra advantage.
Fighter level 2 for Action Surge.
Fighter level 3 for Champion giving critical hits on 19 and 20.
Fighter level 4 for the feat Crossbow Expert to no longer worry about disadvantage at close range but also Extra Attack potential.
Fighter level 5 for Extra Attack.
So critical hit chance per turn by going to level 9 in this way with the first 4 levels being Rogue then last 5 levels being Fighter is:
Level 1: 5%
Level 2: 5%
Level 3: 9.75% (Steady Aim)
Level 4: 14.27% (Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy)
Level 5: 14.27%
Level 6: 14.27% (Action Surge would be 18.55%)
Level 7: 21.7% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy) (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 8: 21.7% (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 9: 34.39% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy and Crossbow Expert combined with Extra Attack) (Action Surge would be 46.86%)
Correct math should be (in percents):
5
5
9.75 (Steady Aim)
14.26 (without rounding it's 14.2625, so dunno how you got to 14.27) (Steady Aim + EA)
14.26
14.26 (Action Surge gives an independent chance to crit, which means 18.55 for at least one crit, but more meaningfully speaking, average number of crits - expressed as a percentage so our numbers remain comparable - is now 19.26)
27.1 (did you transpose digits?) (Steady Aim + EA + Champion crit range); odds of at least one crit with Action Surge is 34.39 but total expected crits is 37.1
See row 7 assuming you don't use Crossbow Expert (which, agreed, you shouldn't - EA is better).
See row 7 for baseline numbers now (Steady Aimed shot + regular shot); Action Surge takes you to 46.86 of at least one crit and 0.571 total crits.
However, there are numerous ways to do significantly better than the above math by finding a source of advantage that outlasts 1 attack. Examples of this include Samurai and any of several ways to cast Darkness and see through it (Shadow Sorcerer, Warlock with Devil's Sight, Shadow Monk with a Fighter dip for Blind Fighting; you generally need Sorcerer levels to do this as a bonus action), and of course Gloom Stalkers are pretty infamous if you have access to regular old normal darkness. In fact, your build has a better way to do this than Steady Aim, since you're an Arcane Trickster; why are we ignoring your owl for our math?
Average damage by level 9 would be the following if we assume a hit on both attacks with Steady Aim on the first to trigger Elven Accuracy and Sneak Attack:
Assuming you hit defeats the purpose of crit-fishing.
26 damage on average at base = (Heavy Crossbow) 1d10 + 4 (Dexterity 18) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d10 + 4
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 51 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 37 damage instead.)
No, a critical hit would add 18 damage with Sneak Attack.
45 damage on average with Action Surge = 4d10 + 16 + 2d6
Your math is getting steadily worse, because of Sneak Attack's 1/turn nature: as you make more attacks the odds of you having failed to deliver your Sneak Attack damage exponentially decreases, which in this case means diminishing returns on more attacks.
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 70 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 56 damage instead.)
Well actually my suggestion from rogue lvl9 was to replace the feat crossbow expert with shapshooter and the sneak attack.
But let's focus on your build. I would never make a multiclass of more than 3 levels in the secondary class. But if I did get that R4 F5, I would definitely go longbow and substitute crossbow expert for shapshooter. Rolling 3 dice, the -5 does not matter and you will add a fixed +10 to the damage. And between 1d8 and a 1d10, the difference is marginal. The big impact is on flat damage (or if you roll a lot more dice).
There's also one thing I think you're missing. If you're going to start with 5 levels in one class, and 4 in another, and work your way up to lvl20, you shouldn't overlook the impact that has on your progress. If your main is Rogue, you will get your sneak attack dice 5 levels later. Also, the rest of the rogue's features (which are generally fantastic) you will get 5 levels later. And considering you're AT, you're going to get your lvl2 spells at your lvl 12. And your lvl 3 at 18. If you're okay with that, that's fine. But you shouldn't think of build as static.
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Looking at doing a good Crit Fishing Build with range weapon, but not sure on how to calculate the math for the % to land a crit per turn.
Build idea is Eladrin Variant Elf for heavy crossbow proficiency with origin replacement option and then later the Elven Accuracy feat. Going Rogue for Steady Aim for advantage and additional sneak attack damage to maximize crits. Will also pick up Crossbow feat for extra attack in Fighter multiclass and Piercer feat to roll another crit damage. Fighter multiclass will give Champion for crit on 19 to 20 and give extra attack. Other benefits such as Arcane Trickster will assist with spells such as misty step to teleport since I won't move while sniping and silvery barbs to assist in advantage.
So, what is the crit % per turn if:
Champion Fighter crit 19 to 20 while Steady Aim giving advantage to hit, also adding Elven Accuracy. Then second attack with Extra Attack.
Thanks! Any suggestions are appreciated.
In my opinion, the best way to take advantage of these types of builds is with sharpshooter/Great Weapon master feat. Not so much for the crit itself, which doesn't double the +10, but to make your dps more consistent even without crit.
Regarding the class, obviously you will have more critical chance if you make more attacks. The problem is that you won't be able to do it with a crossbow (except with the Crossbow Expert feat, which is too many feats), so that champion better go with a longbow.
With the rogue you play it with a single roll, but if you play well you will add your sneak attack, which makes your crit much more effective.
Another build to do this is a hexblade with an improved pact weapon and Thirsting Blade. With Darkness or Shadow of moil you will attack with advantage every turn. The main problem with this build is someone counterspelling or dispel magic on you. But otherwise it works very well.
Here is an article with some maths regarding Elven Accuracy:
https://thinkdm.org/2018/04/07/how-strong-is-elven-accuracy/
Nature or Survival are probably the best skills for Fishing.
Let's start with the odds of a crit with 1 attack from a level 1 commoner...You need to roll a 20 on a d20, so the odds are 1 in 20, or 5%.
What if the commoner has advantage? Well, now you need to roll a 20 on one of 2 d20s. At this point the trick of figuring out the odds of the opposite and subtracting them from 1 becomes easier...so what are the odds that you DON'T roll a 20 on either dice? Well on a single die it is 19 in 20, or 95%...we can double that to 2 dice by squaring the number...so .95*.95=.9025...1-.9025=.0975 or 9.75%.
What if the commoner is an elf that has the elven accuracy feat some how (not possibly by rules...but we are slowly making the math more complex...so go with me.) At that point we are adding a third die...so it's just .95 cubed instead of squared...so .95*.95*.95=.857375. 1-.857375=.142625 or 14.2625%
Alright...that's our elven accuracy. Now...what about increasing the crit range.
Well, we are just doubling the range, right...need to roll a 19 or 20. So the base odds are now 10% instead of 5%. so for super advantage champion it would be 1-(.90*.90*.90)=1-.729= 27.1%. But remember, only a natural 20 automatically hits. The 19 only hits if the modified attack roll beats the monster's AC still...so in practice the crit chance is up to 27.1% but could be as low as 14.2625% on high AC monsters.
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
Thank you for the link!
So my character concept feels good to me from what I am seeing on the numbers.
By level 9:
So critical hit chance per turn by going to level 9 in this way with the first 4 levels being Rogue then last 5 levels being Fighter is:
Level 1: 5%
Level 2: 5%
Level 3: 9.75% (Steady Aim)
Level 4: 14.27% (Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy)
Level 5: 14.27%
Level 6: 14.27% (Action Surge would be 18.55%)
Level 7: 21.7% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy) (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 8: 21.7% (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 9: 34.39% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy and Crossbow Expert combined with Extra Attack) (Action Surge would be 46.86%)
Average damage by level 9 would be the following if we assume a hit on both attacks with Steady Aim on the first to trigger Elven Accuracy and Sneak Attack:
26 damage on average at base = (Heavy Crossbow) 1d10 + 4 (Dexterity 18) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d10 + 4
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 51 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 37 damage instead.)
45 damage on average with Action Surge = 4d10 + 16 + 2d6
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 70 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 56 damage instead.)
The way to figure out critical chance per turn when rolling multiple attacks is to figure out the chance of not getting a critical on any one die, and then exponentiating. Thus:
However, I'm not sure why you care about crit chance per turn there, as there don't seem to be any once per turn effects.
The sneak attack damage is once per turn...but the key to that (if you are reasonably sure you will hit with all of your attacks) is to put the SA on the last attack of the round...or the first attack that comes up as a crit.
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
If your hit chance is less than 90%, waiting for the last attack will be a net loss of damage.
Here's the problem you're going to run into with this build... the particular combination of subclasses you took means you'll get much higher chances of critting each turn than if you had just gone straight with one class, but you also don't have a lot you can DO with that crit compared to other classes. By 8th level you're only a 3rd level Rogue, so your Sneak Attack is only adding 2d6 to one attack per round. You've got pretty good odds of bumping that up to 4d6 with your increased crit odds... or you could just go full Rogue and add 4d6 guaranteed with just about every round of combat, with pretty good odds of landing a crit and turning it into 8d6.
I dunno, I get what you're going for and I think it will work in the long run, but it definitely feels like it's more of a gimmick than a reliable playstyle. Part of me feels like you'd be better off just taking a single dip into Hexblade Warlock for Hexblade's Curse... you can't use it as often, but against big targets you can get that 19-20 crit range.
I think it would also be useful to take a class like Paladin with their smites, or subclasses like Battlemaster Fighter or Swords Bard which let you tack on damage to an attack after it lands (so you can save it for when you get that crit).
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Thank you for the feedback and the way you presented it.
A 9th level Rogue assuming its attack hits with same weapon, race, and EA feat for similar comparison, except bonus Dexterity to 20 instead of Crossbow feat for extra +1 to hit and damage:
— Crits 14.27% per turn instead of 34.39% per turn, a 20.12% critical hit chance loss.
— Average damage is 27 (1d10 + 5 + 5d6) compared to the 26. (Although original build is 28 if point buy or good roll instead of standard array.)
— Average crit damage is 51 (2d10 + 5 + 10d6) compared to 37 to 51 (depending on if crit is on sneak attack.) [Original build is 39 to 53 if point buy or good rolls for stats in Dex.]
— None of this counts Action Surge to go nuclear
The original build can deal more base damage and more crit damage; however the accuracy of my original build to do base damage may be less since it relies on the extra attack hitting with its +2 to hit on fighting style, but the crit chance is massively increased.
I totally agree with you. What happens is that the OP seems to want to make a build to fish crits without caring about anything else. In that regard, this build works perfectly. I can't think of another build with a higher critical chance.
Now, in my opinion, any of the classes involved, in singleclass is going to be better than that multiclass. Of course, it will not have that brutal rate of critics. I especially think that the Soulkinfe rogue with elven accuracy + sharpshooter is a tremendously effective build. But that's another build that, moreover, is never going to have a crit ratio as high as the one the OP is proposing (But it comes close). Though when you do a critical, you're going to do tremendous damage. Much more than the build proposed by the OP. And the damage is going to be very consistent even without crit. But like I say, that's another build.
So the build is focused on critical hits, but not in disregard of everything else. If I went Fighter 16 and Rogue 4, then maybe that would be true.
At level 20 of this build going Fighter 5 and Rogue 15 (FS) compared to Rogue (R) at 20:
To hit is +13 (FS) compared to +11 (R). (FS) gets edge due to Archery Fighting Style.
Average damage if all attacks hit per turn without crits is 49 (FS) compared to 45 (R). (FS) gets edge due to Extra Attack.
Average crit chance per turn is 34.39% (FS) compared to 14.26% (R). (FS) gets edge due to Extra Attack and Champion subclass.
Average crit damage with Piercer feat is 60 without Sneak Attack or 88 with Sneak Attack (FS) compared to 86 (R). (FS) has same critical hit chance of 14.26% event without the Extra Attack, so the chances of getting the first attack to crit is the same for Sneak Attack except (FS) deals more damage if so; (FS) gets edge.
(FS) also has Action Surge and plenty of spells such as Misty Step, Counterspell, Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silver Barbs.
Plenty of other defensive and social abilities within the Rogue class and Fighter's Second Wind.
A level 20 Rouge (R) compared to this multiclass of level 5 Fighter with 15 levels of Rouge (FS):
To hit -2. (R) is more likely to miss attacks.
Average damage per turn if attacks hit -4. (R) is dealing less damage.
Critical hit chance per turn is -20.13%. (R) is dealing a critical hit on an average of 1 out of every 2 encounters if you consider encounters to be around 3 to 4 turns, instead of around once every encounter. Meaning around -15 damage less per every other encounter on top of other damage reductions at minimum. (Don't know how to calculate the average loss here, just the minimum.)
Critical hit total damage is -2.
(FS) has a more affective critical by % to hit and damage.
(FS) has super advantage on its first attack every turn even against other enemies that can see in magical darkness, doesn't require spell slots, and doesn't need to worry about counterspell or dispel magic if comparing to Warklock.
Taking Elven Accuracy, Crossbow Expert, and Piercer feats isn't too many feats if Dexterity is the only stat interested in maxing. With Point Buy or Standard Array, you max out Dexterity by level 12 and have all three of these feats; since two of these feats are half feats. Longbow instead of Crossbow would reduce the average damage per turn if all attacks hit by -2 and critical hit total damage would also be reduced by -3. The Crossbow Expert feat is also useful for close range fighting if forced into the situation.
The big problem is that you're saddled with Champion, and Champions are terrible.
Part by part:
- We were comparing two lvl9 builds (what you had proposed). What you said was R4 F5, whose sneak attack is 2d6 (one per turn). A lvl 9 rogue does 5d6 (on its only attack).
- What you propose now is R15 F5. Well, you would have 2 attacks of 1d10+5, and one with +8d6 from the sneak attack. The lvl20 rogue would do an attack + sneak attack. For simplicity we will assume that you do it with a crossbow as well. 1d10+5+10d6. That makes an average of 52 (5 from 1d10 +10 flat +4 from each d6) vs 50 (5 from 1d10 +5 flat +4 from d6). If you get the critical the thing goes off, I don't think it's necessary to do numbers.
- What I was saying was to replace the feat Crossbow Expert (necessary for the extra attack) with Sharpshooter, so each turn you will add another fixed +10 to the damage. Obviously going up to lvl 20 you could find room for it. But at lvl9 you don't have it. And of course, if you use Sharpshooter, then the extra attack becomes much juicier. Even then, if you could get the adv by other means, the lvl20 Fighter's 4 attacks are tremendous (+60 flat damage each turn if all attacks hit). But there you would have to collaborate with your teammates or rely on a magic item, which is completely outside the analysis of a build.
In short, the lvl 20 rogue is going to do more damage on crits and about the same damage without crit. But, in addition, the lvl 20 rogue (or fighter) gains one more ASIS (or feat). And specifically, the rogue gains Elusive and Stroke of Luck which are fantastic features.
Where your build clearly comes out on top is in crit rate (having more chance to hit is kind of marginal when we're talking about making your attacks with 3 dice). And if you want to do that, go ahead. As I told you before, I can't think of a build with a higher critical rate.
I'm all good in hearing you out, since I can get off the Champion saddle; however I don't see a counter argument that backs your claim currently in this specific multiclass example, since the numbers look good so far with better to hit, damage, crit %, and crit damage compare to a level 20 rogue for example. I agree if you mean level 20 champion, but no one is suggesting that yet.
Champions are the best for crit fishing. Crit fishing is a pretty poor tactic, though. You're getting a 34.4% crit rate per round, as compared to the 18.5% of a non-champion that's otherwise identical, so you're landing an extra 0.159 crits per turn; at level 9 using a longbow each crit is a bonus 11.5 damage, so you bonus dpr is 1.83.
A Battle Master using his superiority dice for damage will do an average of +18 base damage, and because those dice can crit too the real bonus is around +21, meaning it takes 12 rounds for the Champion setup to catch up. 12 rounds per short rest is not unheard of in 5e, but it's a severe anomaly, and the battle master is also applying status effects. A psi warrior would have a base 8 psi dice per day at level 9 and probably recovers another 2; with 12 Int that's 55 damage per day (with crits, 60+) and you need 33 rounds combat per day for the champion to catch up. And so on.
R4/F5 in the original example would still be good with EA feat at R4 and Crossbow Expert feat at F5.
R4/F5 in the original example compared to R9:
I would say that R9 has more damage potential overall and R4/F5 has more damage accuracy, so both are good build options for a middle level campaign.
R15/F5 in the expanded example compared to R20:
R15/F5 will now outperform overall; although R9 can still outshine in specific encounters if it gets the same amount of crits.
I think the build seems to have more potential due to the high crit rate and Action Surge, but they are comparable in general. I could do Fighter 16 and Rogue 4 for a critical average per turn of 55.62%, but that would have less average damage and less crit damage; however critting every other turn sounds fun. (But I wouldn't do that build since the damage is less.)
Correct math should be (in percents):
However, there are numerous ways to do significantly better than the above math by finding a source of advantage that outlasts 1 attack. Examples of this include Samurai and any of several ways to cast Darkness and see through it (Shadow Sorcerer, Warlock with Devil's Sight, Shadow Monk with a Fighter dip for Blind Fighting; you generally need Sorcerer levels to do this as a bonus action), and of course Gloom Stalkers are pretty infamous if you have access to regular old normal darkness. In fact, your build has a better way to do this than Steady Aim, since you're an Arcane Trickster; why are we ignoring your owl for our math?
Assuming you hit defeats the purpose of crit-fishing.
No, a critical hit would add 18 damage with Sneak Attack.
Your math is getting steadily worse, because of Sneak Attack's 1/turn nature: as you make more attacks the odds of you having failed to deliver your Sneak Attack damage exponentially decreases, which in this case means diminishing returns on more attacks.
Where are you getting 25 from?
Well actually my suggestion from rogue lvl9 was to replace the feat crossbow expert with shapshooter and the sneak attack.
But let's focus on your build. I would never make a multiclass of more than 3 levels in the secondary class. But if I did get that R4 F5, I would definitely go longbow and substitute crossbow expert for shapshooter. Rolling 3 dice, the -5 does not matter and you will add a fixed +10 to the damage. And between 1d8 and a 1d10, the difference is marginal. The big impact is on flat damage (or if you roll a lot more dice).
There's also one thing I think you're missing. If you're going to start with 5 levels in one class, and 4 in another, and work your way up to lvl20, you shouldn't overlook the impact that has on your progress. If your main is Rogue, you will get your sneak attack dice 5 levels later. Also, the rest of the rogue's features (which are generally fantastic) you will get 5 levels later. And considering you're AT, you're going to get your lvl2 spells at your lvl 12. And your lvl 3 at 18. If you're okay with that, that's fine. But you shouldn't think of build as static.