My character has a decent stealth so I'm thinking the disadvantage wouldn't be that big of a hit. About half the party has stealth and I find myself on point about 1/2 the time. Would you switch to breast plate to avoid disadvantage on stealth or stick with the half plate to get that +1 one and hope your skill gets you through the day? For note I'm running 1 bard 2 warlock and the rest sorcerer. I have the choice of +1 breast plate or +1 half plate.
Yes, disadvantage would be a big problem for you. It's something like a -4 or -5 penalty. I'm not sure what you consider a "decent" stealth score but you don't want to roll at disadvantage every time you make a stealth check.
I just got some half plate armor myself, and I'm not actually wearing it until I get the Medium Armor Master feat so I can ignore the Stealth penalty.
There are several ways to get rid of the disadvantage, e.g. the Medium Armor Master feat, the Enhance Ability and Pass without a Trace spells or simply doffing it when you know you have to be stealthy.
Maybe also talk to your DM. I would absolutely allow you to doff only part of the armor to reduce it to a Breastplate for sneaking.
The math for disadvantage doesn't usually work out to be as bad as -5, but it is still not great. If you need to be stealthy often and can't mitigate the disadvantage, I'd save the armor until later.
Disadvantage means 2 chances to get that roll of 1. Say you have +12 stealth, that's a 13 which means many creatures can pick you up with a passive perception check.
Half-plate is +5 to AC, Breastplate is +4. For the AC different, the disadvantage to stealth is not worth the +1 AC difference. Now Mithril half plate, if you can get it, would be a different matter, but a +1 breastplate would give the same AC.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I'd probably go with the breastplate. However if I had a Dex of 16 and was close to an ASI/Feat level-up, I'd probably lean towards the half-plate and grab Medium Armor Master when I could.
Thanks for all the input, I'll start off with the breastplate then swap it for the half plate if I feel the need for more armor. I'll roll 2 dice for stealth and see how often I would have failed if wearing half-plate.
There are several ways to get rid of the disadvantage, e.g. the Medium Armor Master feat, the Enhance Ability and Pass without a Trace spells or simply doffing it when you know you have to be stealthy.
Maybe also talk to your DM. I would absolutely allow you to doff only part of the armor to reduce it to a Breastplate for sneaking.
I like that idea of being able to doff a portion of the armor... I think that half-plate is essentially just a breastplate with pauldrons and bracers. So it would make logical sense to be able to just take off part of it.
Disadvantage means 2 chances to get that roll of 1. Say you have +12 stealth, that's a 13 which means many creatures can pick you up with a passive perception check.
Half-plate is +5 to AC, Breastplate is +4. For the AC different, the disadvantage to stealth is not worth the +1 AC difference. Now Mithril half plate, if you can get it, would be a different matter, but a +1 breastplate would give the same AC.
Nat 1s only count as critical failures in combat. Most people houserule that it counts for everything, but technically it does not.
I don't think Mergon was referring to crit fails; just that, if you roll a 1 on your stealth, even with a +12 you have a total of only 13, and many (possibly most) creatures have a passive perception higher than that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
I don't think Mergon was referring to crit fails; just that, if you roll a 1 on your stealth, even with a +12 you have a total of only 13, and many (possibly most) creatures have a passive perception higher than that.
Some furniture true polymorphed into monsters have higher passive perceptions than a 13
Making armor decisions around what will happen if you roll a 1 (only a 9.75% chance even with disadvantage) is betting against yourself. You're a hero, play heroically.
Not clear what level you are, but if you have Expertise (Stealth) and your dex is in the range to make medium armor attractive over light (either +2 or +3 at most), then I think you're somewhere in the +6-+15 range based on level and should be okay with disadvantage. A lot of creatures have no perception modifier at all and average wisdom, or add proficiency but have low wisdom, or have high wisdom but don't add their proficiency bonus to perception in their statblock. Your proficiency bonus is probably enough to already counterbalance the downward deviation a disadvantage roll will cause, and if you have expertise, then really you're probably still ahead and can get away with rolls of 6 or higher, which you're 64% likely to do even with disadvantage.
Taking disadvantage on Stealth rolls for just +1 AC is a bad move if you intend to be on point. A really bad move.
+1 AC will allow you to avoid one additional attack 5% of the time. A failed stealth roll may well result in losing surprise for an entire encounter, having to fight an unwanted combat that could be avoided, or otherwise causing your party strategic problems. All of those are far more important than +1 AC.
Think of it this way: would you take a Ring of Protection +1 that gave disadvantage on stealth? If you're a clanking fighter in full player, sure. Otherwise it's effectively a cursed item.
I'm going to assume that you have +6 to stealth (+2 proficiency, +4 Dex) and calculate your chance of failing Stealth rolls against 4 different DCs. However, first note that (no matter what modifier you have) the chance of a Critical Success roll of 20 because 1 in 400 if you have disadvantage (double 20 roll needed), compared to 1 in 20 without. However, your chance of a Critical Failure increases to 9.75%.
DC 10 Stealth Check: Succeed 80% without disadvantage, 64% with. Roughly equivalent to -3 on a single roll.
DC 15 Stealth Check: Succeed 60% without disadvantage, 36% with. Roughly equivalent to -5 on a single roll.
DC 20 Stealth Check: Succeed 35% without disadvantage, 12.25% with Roughly equivalent to -4/-5 on a single roll.
DC 25 Stealth Check Succeed 5% without disadvantage, 0.25% with. Roughly equivalent to making bothering to roll effectively just a technicality.
Note that if you're getting -5 on a roll and you only have +6 to Stealth checks, you're effectively getting rid of your bonus. If you opt for the AC, let someone else go be the stealthy one.
I'm going to assume that you have +6 to stealth (+2 proficiency, +4 Dex) and calculate your chance of failing Stealth rolls against 4 different DCs. However, first note that (no matter what modifier you have) the chance of a Critical Success roll of 20 because 1 in 400 if you have disadvantage (double 20 roll needed), compared to 1 in 20 without. However, your chance of a Critical Failure increases to 9.75%.
Critical success and critical failure do not apply to (Stealth) checks RAW, only to combat rolls. Technically no matter what you have the exact same probably of rolling a crit success and/or a crit failure if you have a straight roll, disadvantage, or advantage because the chance of getting a crit either way is always 0%.
If you have a level 17+ character with expertise in Stealth and a DEX of 20, then you get +17 to your (Stealth) checks, so even if you roll a natural 1, you still succeeded at a DC 18 Stealth check.
I'm going to assume that you have +6 to stealth (+2 proficiency, +4 Dex) and calculate your chance of failing Stealth rolls against 4 different DCs. However, first note that (no matter what modifier you have) the chance of a Critical Success roll of 20 because 1 in 400 if you have disadvantage (double 20 roll needed), compared to 1 in 20 without. However, your chance of a Critical Failure increases to 9.75%.
Critical success and critical failure do not apply to (Stealth) checks RAW, only to combat rolls. Technically no matter what you have the exact same probably of rolling a crit success and/or a crit failure if you have a straight roll, disadvantage, or advantage because the chance of getting a crit either way is always 0%.
If you have a level 17+ character with expertise in Stealth and a DEX of 20, then you get +17 to your (Stealth) checks, so even if you roll a natural 1, you still succeeded at a DC 18 Stealth check.
A lot of people play critical success/failure on ability and proficiency checks, so I figured it was worth including.
Fair. I play it that way myself as well. But since it’s not technically RAW I thought that was worth mentioning too. For all we know they’re AL players.
Taking disadvantage on Stealth rolls for just +1 AC is a bad move if you intend to be on point. A really bad move.
+1 AC will allow you to avoid one additional attack 5% of the time. A failed stealth roll may well result in losing surprise for an entire encounter, having to fight an unwanted combat that could be avoided, or otherwise causing your party strategic problems. All of those are far more important than +1 AC.
Think of it this way: would you take a Ring of Protection +1 that gave disadvantage on stealth? If you're a clanking fighter in full player, sure. Otherwise it's effectively a cursed item.
I'm going to assume that you have +6 to stealth (+2 proficiency, +4 Dex) and calculate your chance of failing Stealth rolls against 4 different DCs. However, first note that (no matter what modifier you have) the chance of a Critical Success roll of 20 because 1 in 400 if you have disadvantage (double 20 roll needed), compared to 1 in 20 without. However, your chance of a Critical Failure increases to 9.75%.
DC 10 Stealth Check: Succeed 80% without disadvantage, 64% with. Roughly equivalent to -3 on a single roll.
DC 15 Stealth Check: Succeed 60% without disadvantage, 36% with. Roughly equivalent to -5 on a single roll.
DC 20 Stealth Check: Succeed 35% without disadvantage, 12.25% with Roughly equivalent to -4/-5 on a single roll.
DC 25 Stealth Check Succeed 5% without disadvantage, 0.25% with. Roughly equivalent to making bothering to roll effectively just a technicality.
Note that if you're getting -5 on a roll and you only have +6 to Stealth checks, you're effectively getting rid of your bonus. If you opt for the AC, let someone else go be the stealthy one.
I find it interesting that you are assuming that they are tier one with 18 dex, even more so when they are considering between 2 +1 armors. I'd assume that they are at least tier 2, possibly tier 3 and include that with the analysis. That's increased 5-10% success rate on straight rolls and something between an extra 1.25% to 5% with disadvantage, maybe higher? Without adding in the possibility of higher dex... (possibly lower dex even since they are going medium armor...). Still, it's a good counter argument against getting it.
The choice here is between a 16 AC (breast plate with no Medium Armor Master), 17 AC w/ disadvantage (half plate with no medium armor master), or 18 AC (half plate with medium armor master). The choice between the 16 and 17 options in Tier 1 is one thing, but the 18 option should be a given by the time you're at tier 2, or definitely by tier 3. Quit doing analysis for Tier 2 and 3, because he's only a level 3 character right now, and obviously he'll get Medium Armor Master down the line if AC and stealth continue to be important for him.
The way I see it, when your AC fails you it uses up resources (you get hit, requiring you to heal, or possibly taking you out of a fight). When your stealth check fails, you end up in an encounter... which you maybe would have been in anyway, if someone else in the party failed a stealth check? Or if your party decided to get into it anyway? Or if you roll low on your stealth check? I dunno, it just seems to me like disadvantage is a hypothetical disadvantage (hey, maybe you roll well twice, or maybe you would have ended up in that encounter either way?) whereas getting struck by an attack is a concrete disadvantage (you will get hit 5% more often over the life of your character, and getting hit will cost your group resources and endanger you).
The choice here is between a 16 AC (breast plate with no Medium Armor Master), 17 AC w/ disadvantage (half plate with no medium armor master), or 18 AC (half plate with medium armor master). The choice between the 16 and 17 options in Tier 1 is one thing, but the 18 option should be a given by the time you're at tier 2, or definitely by tier 3. Quit doing analysis for Tier 2 and 3, because he's only a level 3 character right now, and obviously he'll get Medium Armor Master down the line if AC and stealth continue to be important for him.
The way I see it, when your AC fails you it uses up resources (you get hit, requiring you to heal, or possibly taking you out of a fight). When your stealth check fails, you end up in an encounter... which you maybe would have been in anyway, if someone else in the party failed a stealth check? Or if your party decided to get into it anyway? Or if you roll low on your stealth check? I dunno, it just seems to me like disadvantage is a hypothetical disadvantage (hey, maybe you roll well twice, or maybe you would have ended up in that encounter either way?) whereas getting struck by an attack is a concrete disadvantage (you will get hit 5% more often over the life of your character, and getting hit will cost your group resources and endanger you).
I see your reasoning, but I'd also say that you're not applying your own logic to getting hit.
What if he doesn't get attacked by physical attacks? What if successful stealth rolls means he doesn't get attacked as much?
If you roll low on your stealth check you fail. Obviously. But what if monsters roll low on their attacks? The same logic applies, but a single failed Stealth check is going to have a much bigger impact than taking one more hit every 20 attacks. It's true that one extra hit might take you out, but that's not because you had one less armour, that's because other things had already gone wrong (unless the DM is throwing massive one-shotting attacks at you, which is a different issue).
Your party can of course choose to get into it anyway. But given that this is specifically a question about how he tends to do lots of Stealth stuff, that's kind of moot. If he chooses the stealth option then he carries on being stealthy, if he opts for a single point of armour he effectively loses that option, as his stealth will be worse than most other members of the party.
Imagining a DC15 stealth check and the stats I gave above, you'll fail 5 more stealth checks of every 20 compared to getting hit one more time in 20. You'll always get hit eventually, but Stealth used well might reduce the number of attacks that come your way, and lead to your party attacking with Surprise, which is a massive bonus to the whole party, far in excess of +1AC for one player, and that's really the key thing. Stealth affects your group, armour affects you and you alone.
My character has a decent stealth so I'm thinking the disadvantage wouldn't be that big of a hit. About half the party has stealth and I find myself on point about 1/2 the time. Would you switch to breast plate to avoid disadvantage on stealth or stick with the half plate to get that +1 one and hope your skill gets you through the day? For note I'm running 1 bard 2 warlock and the rest sorcerer. I have the choice of +1 breast plate or +1 half plate.
Yes, disadvantage would be a big problem for you. It's something like a -4 or -5 penalty. I'm not sure what you consider a "decent" stealth score but you don't want to roll at disadvantage every time you make a stealth check.
I just got some half plate armor myself, and I'm not actually wearing it until I get the Medium Armor Master feat so I can ignore the Stealth penalty.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I would take the Half Plate.
There are several ways to get rid of the disadvantage, e.g. the Medium Armor Master feat, the Enhance Ability and Pass without a Trace spells or simply doffing it when you know you have to be stealthy.
Maybe also talk to your DM. I would absolutely allow you to doff only part of the armor to reduce it to a Breastplate for sneaking.
The math for disadvantage doesn't usually work out to be as bad as -5, but it is still not great. If you need to be stealthy often and can't mitigate the disadvantage, I'd save the armor until later.
Disadvantage means 2 chances to get that roll of 1. Say you have +12 stealth, that's a 13 which means many creatures can pick you up with a passive perception check.
Half-plate is +5 to AC, Breastplate is +4. For the AC different, the disadvantage to stealth is not worth the +1 AC difference. Now Mithril half plate, if you can get it, would be a different matter, but a +1 breastplate would give the same AC.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I'd probably go with the breastplate. However if I had a Dex of 16 and was close to an ASI/Feat level-up, I'd probably lean towards the half-plate and grab Medium Armor Master when I could.
Thanks for all the input, I'll start off with the breastplate then swap it for the half plate if I feel the need for more armor. I'll roll 2 dice for stealth and see how often I would have failed if wearing half-plate.
I like that idea of being able to doff a portion of the armor... I think that half-plate is essentially just a breastplate with pauldrons and bracers. So it would make logical sense to be able to just take off part of it.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Nat 1s only count as critical failures in combat. Most people houserule that it counts for everything, but technically it does not.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I don't think Mergon was referring to crit fails; just that, if you roll a 1 on your stealth, even with a +12 you have a total of only 13, and many (possibly most) creatures have a passive perception higher than that.
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
Some furniture true polymorphed into monsters have higher passive perceptions than a 13
Making armor decisions around what will happen if you roll a 1 (only a 9.75% chance even with disadvantage) is betting against yourself. You're a hero, play heroically.
Not clear what level you are, but if you have Expertise (Stealth) and your dex is in the range to make medium armor attractive over light (either +2 or +3 at most), then I think you're somewhere in the +6-+15 range based on level and should be okay with disadvantage. A lot of creatures have no perception modifier at all and average wisdom, or add proficiency but have low wisdom, or have high wisdom but don't add their proficiency bonus to perception in their statblock. Your proficiency bonus is probably enough to already counterbalance the downward deviation a disadvantage roll will cause, and if you have expertise, then really you're probably still ahead and can get away with rolls of 6 or higher, which you're 64% likely to do even with disadvantage.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
don't forget about mithral
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Taking disadvantage on Stealth rolls for just +1 AC is a bad move if you intend to be on point. A really bad move.
+1 AC will allow you to avoid one additional attack 5% of the time.
A failed stealth roll may well result in losing surprise for an entire encounter, having to fight an unwanted combat that could be avoided, or otherwise causing your party strategic problems. All of those are far more important than +1 AC.
Think of it this way: would you take a Ring of Protection +1 that gave disadvantage on stealth? If you're a clanking fighter in full player, sure. Otherwise it's effectively a cursed item.
I'm going to assume that you have +6 to stealth (+2 proficiency, +4 Dex) and calculate your chance of failing Stealth rolls against 4 different DCs. However, first note that (no matter what modifier you have) the chance of a Critical Success roll of 20 because 1 in 400 if you have disadvantage (double 20 roll needed), compared to 1 in 20 without. However, your chance of a Critical Failure increases to 9.75%.
DC 10 Stealth Check:
Succeed 80% without disadvantage, 64% with.
Roughly equivalent to -3 on a single roll.
DC 15 Stealth Check:
Succeed 60% without disadvantage, 36% with.
Roughly equivalent to -5 on a single roll.
DC 20 Stealth Check:
Succeed 35% without disadvantage, 12.25% with
Roughly equivalent to -4/-5 on a single roll.
DC 25 Stealth Check
Succeed 5% without disadvantage, 0.25% with.
Roughly equivalent to making bothering to roll effectively just a technicality.
Note that if you're getting -5 on a roll and you only have +6 to Stealth checks, you're effectively getting rid of your bonus. If you opt for the AC, let someone else go be the stealthy one.
Critical success and critical failure do not apply to (Stealth) checks RAW, only to combat rolls. Technically no matter what you have the exact same probably of rolling a crit success and/or a crit failure if you have a straight roll, disadvantage, or advantage because the chance of getting a crit either way is always 0%.
If you have a level 17+ character with expertise in Stealth and a DEX of 20, then you get +17 to your (Stealth) checks, so even if you roll a natural 1, you still succeeded at a DC 18 Stealth check.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
A lot of people play critical success/failure on ability and proficiency checks, so I figured it was worth including.
Fair. I play it that way myself as well. But since it’s not technically RAW I thought that was worth mentioning too. For all we know they’re AL players.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I find it interesting that you are assuming that they are tier one with 18 dex, even more so when they are considering between 2 +1 armors. I'd assume that they are at least tier 2, possibly tier 3 and include that with the analysis. That's increased 5-10% success rate on straight rolls and something between an extra 1.25% to 5% with disadvantage, maybe higher? Without adding in the possibility of higher dex... (possibly lower dex even since they are going medium armor...). Still, it's a good counter argument against getting it.
The choice here is between a 16 AC (breast plate with no Medium Armor Master), 17 AC w/ disadvantage (half plate with no medium armor master), or 18 AC (half plate with medium armor master). The choice between the 16 and 17 options in Tier 1 is one thing, but the 18 option should be a given by the time you're at tier 2, or definitely by tier 3. Quit doing analysis for Tier 2 and 3, because he's only a level 3 character right now, and obviously he'll get Medium Armor Master down the line if AC and stealth continue to be important for him.
The way I see it, when your AC fails you it uses up resources (you get hit, requiring you to heal, or possibly taking you out of a fight). When your stealth check fails, you end up in an encounter... which you maybe would have been in anyway, if someone else in the party failed a stealth check? Or if your party decided to get into it anyway? Or if you roll low on your stealth check? I dunno, it just seems to me like disadvantage is a hypothetical disadvantage (hey, maybe you roll well twice, or maybe you would have ended up in that encounter either way?) whereas getting struck by an attack is a concrete disadvantage (you will get hit 5% more often over the life of your character, and getting hit will cost your group resources and endanger you).
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I see your reasoning, but I'd also say that you're not applying your own logic to getting hit.
What if he doesn't get attacked by physical attacks? What if successful stealth rolls means he doesn't get attacked as much?
If you roll low on your stealth check you fail. Obviously. But what if monsters roll low on their attacks? The same logic applies, but a single failed Stealth check is going to have a much bigger impact than taking one more hit every 20 attacks. It's true that one extra hit might take you out, but that's not because you had one less armour, that's because other things had already gone wrong (unless the DM is throwing massive one-shotting attacks at you, which is a different issue).
Your party can of course choose to get into it anyway. But given that this is specifically a question about how he tends to do lots of Stealth stuff, that's kind of moot. If he chooses the stealth option then he carries on being stealthy, if he opts for a single point of armour he effectively loses that option, as his stealth will be worse than most other members of the party.
Imagining a DC15 stealth check and the stats I gave above, you'll fail 5 more stealth checks of every 20 compared to getting hit one more time in 20. You'll always get hit eventually, but Stealth used well might reduce the number of attacks that come your way, and lead to your party attacking with Surprise, which is a massive bonus to the whole party, far in excess of +1AC for one player, and that's really the key thing. Stealth affects your group, armour affects you and you alone.