So I was coming up with a character and felt like probably going open hand monk, when I had the idea to tack on 2 levels of wizard for portent, because that would play really nicely with stunning strike or open hand technique, plus rituals and cantrips offer decent utility, so it seems pretty win win. Then I thought, is there any class that wouldn't necessarily benefit from Portent and its associated wizard bells and whistles? Especially since you don't necessarily need decent INT, and it's such a small dip that it doesn't really hurt any build too much.
What do you think? Not worth a 2 level dip, or am I onto something?
Not worth having putting 13 into Intelligence and two full levels. Just take the luck feat instead. That said, Monk is one of the classes that, at least if you go all the way to level 20, can easily afford a 1-level dip into another class.
What is unfortunate about wizard splashes is, intelligence saves are pretty rare, so 13 or 14 int can feel wasted in a tight build. It’s somewhat redeemed by being used for quite a few RP skills, however, and the treasure- and trap-finding investigation.
That said... suck it up and drop your con a few points, or wear a headband of intellect, and you’ll be fine. A couple levels of wizard for rituals, shield, absorb elements, and feather fall will be great even on a 13 int dummy, and help just about any character that isn’t already a caster. Monks, fighters, rogues, maybe barbs, etc... they’ll all feel classier for a splash of wizard.
But if you assume pointbuy/standard array, classes that need 3 primary stats are preaty much out of luck. Because to multiclass your unmodified int needs to be 13 ( no spells, potions or items can help you here, only ASIs).
I didn't say it was too much. Just that it takes planning, because you'll probably need to point buy 13 Constitution instead of 15 to afford the Intelligence bump at character creation. Nobody needs Constitution, apart from melee concentration casters who can't afford to fail concentration saves and naked barbarians who need it for AC, so... its very doable.
As far as the "don't multi wizard, just take Lucky" thought process goes... multiclassing as a Divination Wizard essentially gets you Magic Initiate+, Ritual Caster-, and Lucky~ for the price of two levels. Depending on the level range you're playing at, levels may be a more easily spent resource than feats are, so it's worth considering.
I didn't say it was too much. Just that it takes planning, because you'll probably need to point buy 13 Constitution instead of 15 to afford the Intelligence bump at character creation. Nobody needs Constitution, apart from melee concentration casters who can't afford to fail concentration saves and naked barbarians who need it for AC, so... its very doable.
As far as the "don't multi wizard, just take Lucky" thought process goes... multiclassing as a Divination Wizard essentially gets you Magic Initiate+, Ritual Caster-, and Lucky~ for the price of two levels. Depending on the level range you're playing at, levels may be a more easily spent resource than feats are, so it's worth considering.
You need to actually read what people write before replying. If the goal was simply to get portent for open hand techniques and stunning strikes, it's not very cost effective. If you also want some other stuff then yes, it might be worth it. But the two classes to mix together very well.
Worth it for a full or 1/2 spellcasting class that happens to have an Int of 13+ - such as Eldritch Fighter or Artificer.
Not so much for a class that does not have Int requirements. It's a lot of stat points and levels for minimal gain.
But, for example, look at a Wiz 2/ Eldritch Fighter 5,
Gives up:
Some hitpoints (d10 vs d6 - make sure your first level is Fighter - you want the Con saves for spell casting, heavy armor and first level max hp)
6th level feat/ASI
War magic ability to take a single attack when you cast a cantrip
one eldritch spell fighter known but....
You get:
Portents
Ritual spell casting
A LOT more first level spells known (a minimum of 8 Wizard spells - which lets you trade all your Eldritch Fighter spells for the 2nd level, using wizards for 1st)
3 extra cantrips
1 extra 2nd level spell slot to use for your Eldritch Fighter spell.
It's not an obvious choice, but I think it is worth it for this build. The extra spells known, extra spell slots, ritual casting are all great things on top of the Portents.
But they really help 1/2 casters more than anything else. For full casters, you are giving up your highest level spells, for non-casters, low level spells are not worth it most of the time.
My arcane trickster Rogue is 7 Rogue and 2 Div Wizard. I love it. Our games are very social based, and pulling in a lean portent roll with a nice +11 to some skills. Makes a guaranteed fun house on occasions. The extra spells really helped with the fluff of the character also. Now he really is a thief extrodenaire.
A 2 level dip is fine. Shield spell very useful and an Owl familiar (yay flyby) to help with some advantage when you need it. You get a lot of utility for that 2 level dip for Portent.
As to whether it is worth it? Often yes, with one or two exceptions like Druid (Archdruid is too good to pass up) or Cleric (guaranteed divine intervention?!).
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Generally what I'm seeing is that it might not be feasible to have good Dex, Wis, ok Con, AND still meet the INT prerequisite with point buy or standard array, but I typically roll my stats, and in my experience it's not so outside the realm of possibility that I'll have at least a 13 to throw into int, especially considering I can dump cha and even str if absolutely necessary.
This is also for a solo campaign, so as far as self self sufficiency and survivability go, rituals, familiar, shield, and absorb elements all sound pretty good too. I'll also be playing v.human to get Lucky at level 1 because I have my ASI's earmarked for Dex and Wis.
If I roll the stats well enough to be able to put a 13 into INT, I'll go for it. Otherwise, I'm sure I'll manage. The dice will tell.
I didn't say it was too much. Just that it takes planning, because you'll probably need to point buy 13 Constitution instead of 15 to afford the Intelligence bump at character creation. Nobody needs Constitution, apart from melee concentration casters who can't afford to fail concentration saves and naked barbarians who need it for AC, so... its very doable.
As far as the "don't multi wizard, just take Lucky" thought process goes... multiclassing as a Divination Wizard essentially gets you Magic Initiate+, Ritual Caster-, and Lucky~ for the price of two levels. Depending on the level range you're playing at, levels may be a more easily spent resource than feats are, so it's worth considering.
For the love of all that is holy do not listen to this....
Anyone who tells you its ok to dump CON especially with 2 levels of wizard does not have your best interests in mind lol
From an HP perspective, it really doesn't. The only time that a Monk with X HP feels different from a Monk with Y HP is if you take damage sufficient to knock Y unconscious which would not knock X unconscious. For the difference between a +1 Con Mod and a +2 Con Mod... that's 1 HP difference per level, which creates a number of points of difference just going to equal character level.
A monk, for example, at level 5 will have a base of 8+(4x5) HP, or 28 HP. If that Monk started with a +2 Con Mod, make that 38 HP. If they started with a +1 Mod, make that 33 HP. The two monks feel exactly the same at the table, unless they take 33-37 HP. 32 or less, both monks are standing and ready to receive healing. 38 or more, both monks are unconscious. Is that a difference? Yes, but possibly not as significant as the opportunity to pick up additional class features may be.
Blah blah the wizard levels also effect the spread, yeah I get it... but the point being.... HP only has a concrete effect on the table when you hit a sweet spot of damage. And in practice, it's pretty rare to be skating around in that sliver of the bottom of your HP tank where it makes a difference.
From an HP perspective, it really doesn't. The only time that a Monk with X HP feels different from a Monk with Y HP is if you take damage sufficient to knock Y unconscious which would not knock X unconscious. For the difference between a +1 Con Mod and a +2 Con Mod... that's 1 HP difference per level, which creates a number of points of difference just going to equal character level.
A monk, for example, at level 5 will have a base of 8+(4x5) HP, or 28 HP. If that Monk started with a +2 Con Mod, make that 38 HP. If they started with a +1 Mod, make that 33 HP. The two monks feel exactly the same at the table, unless they take 33-37 HP. 32 or less, both monks are standing and ready to receive healing. 38 or more, both monks are unconscious. Is that a difference? Yes, but possibly not as significant as the opportunity to pick up additional class features may be.
Blah blah the wizard levels also effect the spread, yeah I get it... but the point being.... HP only has a concrete effect on the table when you hit a sweet spot of damage. And in practice, it's pretty rare to be skating around in that sliver of the bottom of your HP tank where it makes a difference.
I mean it's a big difference if you don't want to die.
Can't use the other stats if your dead. And as a monk you have to spend ki to disengage so if you run out you are likely just gonna die.
Monk AC isn't effected by CON technically but it's likely you don't have great AC if you have so much of a point spread.
Sure they should. If you ever have to pick between 8 strength and 12 con or 12 strength and 8 con, +2 to your Athletics score is far more likely to eventually save you from a “save or die” athletics check to climb a rope or jump over a pit or something than 2 hp/level will. There’s a reason that few people stan the Tough feat, padding your HP is a luxury not a necessity.
The only characters that NEED con are those that use it for non-hp purposes, especially melee casters that need to pass frequent concentration checks. But even they can mitigate low con, such as with Resilient (Con) and Warcaster, Paladin auras, etc.
Sure they should. If you ever have to pick between 8 strength and 12 con or 12 strength and 8 con, +2 to your Athletics score is far more likely to eventually save you from a “save or die” athletics check to climb a rope or jump over a pit or something than 2 hp/level will. There’s a reason that few people stan the Tough feat, padding your HP is a luxury not a necessity.
The only characters that NEED con are those that use it for non-hp purposes, especially melee casters that need to pass frequent concentration checks. But even they can mitigate low con, such as with Resilient (Con) and Warcaster, Paladin auras, etc.
Not true at all! Omg that's terrible advice.
Not only is health one of your primary concerns but saves from monsters are VERY commonly CON saves:
Not only that but as a caster your concentration checks are extremely important to getting the most out of your spells and literally every martial class should have at least a 14 in CON.
There is literally no reason to ever take a CON less than 12 unless you roll for stats and roll poorly across the board.
The ONLY exception is Moon Druid as you are inflating your HP pool with wild shape.
So I was coming up with a character and felt like probably going open hand monk, when I had the idea to tack on 2 levels of wizard for portent, because that would play really nicely with stunning strike or open hand technique, plus rituals and cantrips offer decent utility, so it seems pretty win win. Then I thought, is there any class that wouldn't necessarily benefit from Portent and its associated wizard bells and whistles? Especially since you don't necessarily need decent INT, and it's such a small dip that it doesn't really hurt any build too much.
What do you think? Not worth a 2 level dip, or am I onto something?
Not worth having putting 13 into Intelligence and two full levels. Just take the luck feat instead. That said, Monk is one of the classes that, at least if you go all the way to level 20, can easily afford a 1-level dip into another class.
What is unfortunate about wizard splashes is, intelligence saves are pretty rare, so 13 or 14 int can feel wasted in a tight build. It’s somewhat redeemed by being used for quite a few RP skills, however, and the treasure- and trap-finding investigation.
That said... suck it up and drop your con a few points, or wear a headband of intellect, and you’ll be fine. A couple levels of wizard for rituals, shield, absorb elements, and feather fall will be great even on a 13 int dummy, and help just about any character that isn’t already a caster. Monks, fighters, rogues, maybe barbs, etc... they’ll all feel classier for a splash of wizard.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
But if you assume pointbuy/standard array, classes that need 3 primary stats are preaty much out of luck. Because to multiclass your unmodified int needs to be 13 ( no spells, potions or items can help you here, only ASIs).
Barbarian Str/Dex/Con
Paladin Str/Con/Cha
Druid Wis/Con/Dex
Ranger Dex/Con/Wis
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]That combination is nice in theory, but I agree with everyone else. You’re giving up way too much to get those two levels of wizard.
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I didn't say it was too much. Just that it takes planning, because you'll probably need to point buy 13 Constitution instead of 15 to afford the Intelligence bump at character creation. Nobody needs Constitution, apart from melee concentration casters who can't afford to fail concentration saves and naked barbarians who need it for AC, so... its very doable.
As far as the "don't multi wizard, just take Lucky" thought process goes... multiclassing as a Divination Wizard essentially gets you Magic Initiate+, Ritual Caster-, and Lucky~ for the price of two levels. Depending on the level range you're playing at, levels may be a more easily spent resource than feats are, so it's worth considering.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You need to actually read what people write before replying. If the goal was simply to get portent for open hand techniques and stunning strikes, it's not very cost effective. If you also want some other stuff then yes, it might be worth it. But the two classes to mix together very well.
Worth it for a full or 1/2 spellcasting class that happens to have an Int of 13+ - such as Eldritch Fighter or Artificer.
Not so much for a class that does not have Int requirements. It's a lot of stat points and levels for minimal gain.
But, for example, look at a Wiz 2/ Eldritch Fighter 5,
Gives up:
You get:
It's not an obvious choice, but I think it is worth it for this build. The extra spells known, extra spell slots, ritual casting are all great things on top of the Portents.
But they really help 1/2 casters more than anything else. For full casters, you are giving up your highest level spells, for non-casters, low level spells are not worth it most of the time.
My arcane trickster Rogue is 7 Rogue and 2 Div Wizard. I love it. Our games are very social based, and pulling in a lean portent roll with a nice +11 to some skills. Makes a guaranteed fun house on occasions. The extra spells really helped with the fluff of the character also. Now he really is a thief extrodenaire.
A 2 level dip is fine. Shield spell very useful and an Owl familiar (yay flyby) to help with some advantage when you need it. You get a lot of utility for that 2 level dip for Portent.
As to whether it is worth it? Often yes, with one or two exceptions like Druid (Archdruid is too good to pass up) or Cleric (guaranteed divine intervention?!).
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Generally what I'm seeing is that it might not be feasible to have good Dex, Wis, ok Con, AND still meet the INT prerequisite with point buy or standard array, but I typically roll my stats, and in my experience it's not so outside the realm of possibility that I'll have at least a 13 to throw into int, especially considering I can dump cha and even str if absolutely necessary.
This is also for a solo campaign, so as far as self self sufficiency and survivability go, rituals, familiar, shield, and absorb elements all sound pretty good too. I'll also be playing v.human to get Lucky at level 1 because I have my ASI's earmarked for Dex and Wis.
If I roll the stats well enough to be able to put a 13 into INT, I'll go for it. Otherwise, I'm sure I'll manage. The dice will tell.
For the love of all that is holy do not listen to this....
Anyone who tells you its ok to dump CON especially with 2 levels of wizard does not have your best interests in mind lol
From an HP perspective, it really doesn't. The only time that a Monk with X HP feels different from a Monk with Y HP is if you take damage sufficient to knock Y unconscious which would not knock X unconscious. For the difference between a +1 Con Mod and a +2 Con Mod... that's 1 HP difference per level, which creates a number of points of difference just going to equal character level.
A monk, for example, at level 5 will have a base of 8+(4x5) HP, or 28 HP. If that Monk started with a +2 Con Mod, make that 38 HP. If they started with a +1 Mod, make that 33 HP. The two monks feel exactly the same at the table, unless they take 33-37 HP. 32 or less, both monks are standing and ready to receive healing. 38 or more, both monks are unconscious. Is that a difference? Yes, but possibly not as significant as the opportunity to pick up additional class features may be.
Blah blah the wizard levels also effect the spread, yeah I get it... but the point being.... HP only has a concrete effect on the table when you hit a sweet spot of damage. And in practice, it's pretty rare to be skating around in that sliver of the bottom of your HP tank where it makes a difference.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I mean it's a big difference if you don't want to die.
Can't use the other stats if your dead. And as a monk you have to spend ki to disengage so if you run out you are likely just gonna die.
Monk AC isn't effected by CON technically but it's likely you don't have great AC if you have so much of a point spread.
All in all never dump CON...
Agree to disagree, the things that make builds great aren't the last 5-10% of their HP pool, its everything else.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
But if you can spend a reaction to bump your AC by 5 or absorb half of the Dragonsbreath damage, you do not need those extra 10 hp.
The fact that we argue back and forth and can not agree on one clear best solution, just means that the game is more or less balanced in this area.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]I mean you get at best a few castings of that a day and you take away a good amount of spells to just do what HP does anyway....
Agree to disagree I guess. At least you are suggesting a 12 CON and not an 8.
Literally no character should have a CON less than 12.
Sure they should. If you ever have to pick between 8 strength and 12 con or 12 strength and 8 con, +2 to your Athletics score is far more likely to eventually save you from a “save or die” athletics check to climb a rope or jump over a pit or something than 2 hp/level will. There’s a reason that few people stan the Tough feat, padding your HP is a luxury not a necessity.
The only characters that NEED con are those that use it for non-hp purposes, especially melee casters that need to pass frequent concentration checks. But even they can mitigate low con, such as with Resilient (Con) and Warcaster, Paladin auras, etc.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Not true at all! Omg that's terrible advice.
Not only is health one of your primary concerns but saves from monsters are VERY commonly CON saves:
Monsters call for
Strength saves 34 times,
Dexterity saves 87 times,
Constitution saves 120 times,
Intelligence saves 3 times, (bonus if you guess which 2 monsters)
Wisdom saves 57 times,
Charisma saves 4 times.
This is just the Monster Manual!
Not only that but as a caster your concentration checks are extremely important to getting the most out of your spells and literally every martial class should have at least a 14 in CON.
There is literally no reason to ever take a CON less than 12 unless you roll for stats and roll poorly across the board.
The ONLY exception is Moon Druid as you are inflating your HP pool with wild shape.
Oh an Tough is the second most picked feat overall so you are wrong there as well:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/02/14/top-feats-and-top-feats-by-class-dndbeyond/