Finding an hour to take a short rest, depending on how the adventure is set up, can be difficult.
Some classes are far more dependent on short rests than others, and would thus want to rest when other classes want to push onward.
Unlimited short rests per day, depending on the resource being recovered, can cause severe issues (see Coffeelock for example)
If you look at the encounter design guidelines in the 5e DMG, it appears that they were assuming two short rests per day. It's just that there's no mechanism to enforce that. So, my proposal is really simple:
Short Rests Require Spending at least Half Your Level (minimum 1) Hit Dice
The purpose here is very simple: you can only take two short rests per adventuring day (technically, you can take 3 at level 3...nbd)
Short Rests Take 10 Minutes
This is a lot easier to fit into an adventure timeline. I chose 10 minutes because it matches the time to perform a ritual, and most classes that don't have much use for short rests are ritual casters.
Problem: feats, features, and items that allow/force you to expend hit dice turn off short rests in this model, which is supposed to encourage/force short rests.
Suggestion: add the line "you cannot benefit from another short rest until you complete a long rest" to the rules for short rests. Then rejigger game around the assumption of only one pacing-killing adventure stopping siesta per day. It's easy to remember if your last rest was long or short so none of this "did we already take two short rests today?" buggery that just arbitrarily limiting short rests would lead to. You can alternate short and long or you can skip the shorts because everybody does, but it eliminates edge case cheese like Coffeelock and gives a stable, reliable, expectable level of performance to goddamn freaking short rests.
I think 15 minutes would be good for a short rest.
To fix short rests at my table I actually made an adjustment to long rests in that you only regain half your HP maximum on along rest but regain all Hit Dice on a long rest. That has the effect of encouraging PCs to o actually want to take short rests since Hit Dice become a “free” free resource but HP are more restricted.
I also wish that all classes had some features that reset on a short rest as that would also encourage them. That’s why when I create subclasses for long rest/no rest classes, I try to give them subclass features that reset on a short rest. Conversely, I give subclasses for short rest classes features that reset on long rests or require no resets to give them something for when the party can’t/doesn’t take short rests. I think if all classes were redesigned to benefit from both short and long rests it would solve a lot of problems.
I'm not sure how to vote. I agree in part with the spending of hit dice, but 1/2 your level seems harsh. Like warlocks may be balanced around 2, but there still would be times they only get 1 or maybe 0, so opening up the possibility for 3 or 4 seems right to me. I think just requiring at least one hit die to be spent would be enough as generally you will be needing those to regain health as well. Outside the really low levels I'm spending multiple when I take a short rest anyways as if I'm down hit points is rarely just 5 or something. Further more assuming they keep only regain 1/2 your hit dice on a short rest the warlock would always be behind. But sure 10 minute short rests would solve the I can;t take short rests problem for people who aren't taking it to the absurdly extreme.
Problem: feats, features, and items that allow/force you to expend hit dice turn off short rests in this model, which is supposed to encourage/force short rests.
Honestly, the concept of hit dice in 5e was poorly thought out, I'd rather just have
Short Rest: recover half your max hit points. You may only take two short rests per day.
and toss the entire concept of hit dice, but there's just enough mechanics that key off of them that it's impractical.
Short Rests Require Spending at least Half Your Level (minimum 1) Hit Dice
The purpose here is very simple: you can only take two short rests per adventuring day (technically, you can take 3 at level 3...nbd)
Short Rests Take 10 Minutes
This is a lot easier to fit into an adventure timeline. I chose 10 minutes because it matches the time to perform a ritual, and most classes that don't have much use for short rests are ritual casters.
1) The first one screws over parties with no dedicated healer, which defeats the purpose of Hit Dice healing on a short rest to begin with. (Not to mention all the other things they are planning for us to spend Hit Dice on, see Adept of the Black Robes.)
2) The second one turns every short rest ability into an encounter power which is not how they're designed. The expectation is that you'll have to do without them for some fights, at least if you're following the 6-8 guidance which is also found in the DMG.
Problem: feats, features, and items that allow/force you to expend hit dice turn off short rests in this model, which is supposed to encourage/force short rests.
Honestly, the concept of hit dice in 5e was poorly thought out, I'd rather just have
Short Rest: recover half your max hit points. You may only take two short rests per day.
and toss the entire concept of hit dice, but there's just enough mechanics that key off of them that it's impractical.
I actually like rolling Hit Dice. It feels right to me.
I really like the IDEA of hit dice. A pool of dice that represents your vitality and vigor, and thus a way to spend that vitality and vigor without direct HP loss, is a really cool mechanic.
Wizards absolutely *refuses* to use it the way it's begging to be used.
Why can't I expend hit dice to enhance my spells with blood magic? Why is there no psychic class that expends hit dice to empower its abilities, in homage to all the tropes of psychic powers putting great strain on the brain/body? Why are there no enemies that steal your hit dice to fuel their own healing, no vitality leeches? Why does Exhaustion not interact with hit dice in any way? Why are there so few feats that make use of hit dice, and all they ever do is fake a short rest?
Wizards gave us a super cool, story-rich resource and effectively no way to spend it except to not play D&D for an hour to regain some HP. That SUCKS. I want all the GOOD SHIT we could get by having this mechanical structure that represents vitality and vigor without representing *health*.
I'd say they're working on the "blood magic" stuff. Again, I point to Dragonlance which was their first ever foray into weaponizing hit dice in this way (to my knowledge.) I could definitely see other setting-specific groups doing this kind of thing, like Rakdos and Golgari from the Ravnica setting.
Give it time, in other words. But in the meantime, monkeying too much with short rests and what they do is going to make things more complicated than not.
1) The first one screws over parties with no dedicated healer, which defeats the purpose of Hit Dice healing on a short rest to begin with. (Not to mention all the other things they are planning for us to spend Hit Dice on, see Adept of the Black Robes.)
2) The second one turns every short rest ability into an encounter power which is not how they're designed. The expectation is that you'll have to do without them for some fights, at least if you're following the 6-8 guidance which is also found in the DMG.
Neither of these arguments make any sense to me.
1) does not screw over parties with no dedicated healer. You get exactly the same amount of healing per day as you get currently. The point of (1) is to make sure that you can't take more than two short rests per day. As for adept of the black robes: they really aren't going to suffer from only getting one short rest per day.
2) If you have 6-8 encounters, you aren't going to short rest after every encounter for the simple reason that (1) means you only get two short rests per day.
1) The first one screws over parties with no dedicated healer, which defeats the purpose of Hit Dice healing on a short rest to begin with. (Not to mention all the other things they are planning for us to spend Hit Dice on, see Adept of the Black Robes.)
2) The second one turns every short rest ability into an encounter power which is not how they're designed. The expectation is that you'll have to do without them for some fights, at least if you're following the 6-8 guidance which is also found in the DMG.
Neither of these arguments make any sense to me.
1) does not screw over parties with no dedicated healer. You get exactly the same amount of healing per day as you get currently. The point of (1) is to make sure that you can't take more than two short rests per day. As for adept of the black robes: they really aren't going to suffer from only getting one short rest per day.
2) If you have 6-8 encounters, you aren't going to short rest after every encounter for the simple reason that (1) means you only get two short rests per day.
1) Under the proposal, you're forced to spend half your HD to get the benefits of the rest whether that makes tactical sense/is wasteful or not. You don't see any problem?
2) Not all encounters are combat encounters, the 6-8 includes the other two pillars as well. So your ability to have short rest powers up for every combat or most combats is increased if short rests take substantially less time, even if you get the same number of them.
This may come as a surprise, but from what I understand, people do change how often you can get a short rest.
The problem?
Its usually LENGTHENING them. Making short rests into 8hours and long rests into "til next downtime."
For the people who like these super gritty, low healing, low resources games? Making 10 minute short rests is counter productive. I see this proposed solution to the warlock pact magic constantly. However? It is NOT a simple nor elegant solution. It changes much, and in a direction quite a number of people dislike in their games.
EDIT - if you want Pact Magic / Ki to still recharge after 10 minute break, that's something that's going to have to come from within those classes. Because changing short rests come with a large number of compounding issues for a significant number of tables and players.
Not sure what that has to do with the proposed idea(s)? Gritty Realism rules are optional for a reason. Yes, making long rests rare and impractical to obtain "fixes" short rests but not in any way anybody is really concerned with on this or other threads.
1) Under the proposal, you're forced to spend half your HD to get the benefits of the rest whether that makes tactical sense/is wasteful or not. You don't see any problem?
No. If you're not hurt (which is the usual reason to not want to spend hit dice) do something else for those ten minutes. Not everyone needs to rest at the same time.
2) Not all encounters are combat encounters, the 6-8 includes the other two pillars as well. So your ability to have short rest powers up for every combat or most combats is increased if short rests take substantially less time, even if you get the same number of them.
The DMG standard is for combat encounters -- the 6-8 figure comes from dividing the daily budget by the budget for a medium encounter.
Not sure what that has to do with the proposed idea(s)? Gritty Realism rules are optional for a reason. Yes, making long rests rare and impractical to obtain "fixes" short rests but not in any way anybody is really concerned with on this or other threads.
My point is that people are aware of the ability to change short rests and generally don't want it, because they understand that there's implications behind it. All these "change short rests to fix old warlock" always claim its simple answer when it is not.
Trying to balance a warlock around making short rests more common and easier to take comes with problems and complications.
While I think Short Rests (particularly which classes are affected by short rests) need fixing, the proposed solution has issues that were already mentioned by others. Let's analyze the situation.
Adventuring days can be a variety of types. This depends on table, DM, adventure, or dungeon.
1 large encounter in a single day. This can happen during traveling, story battles, etc.
2 large encounters in a single day with no rest. Such as when the first battle alerts reinforcements.
2-3 large combats with 1 rest. Like stopping for lunch on the way to a dungeon.
"Standard Adventuring Day" of 6-8 encounters with 2 short rests. A dungeon crawl with multiple rooms.
[abnormal] I did once have an adventuring day with 12 encounters and 4 short rests. But that was with a high level party full of Short Rest classes and a DM who likes old school giant dungeon crawls.
So in my mind Short Rests are to (1) give each class a way to recover HP using Hit Dice and (2) provide a way to recover resources on long dungeon crawls.
Reviewing each 1DnD class released so far:
Bards (7th level) recover Bardic Inspiration.
Ranger (11th level) gains temp HP and reduces Exhaustion.
Rogues (18th level) regains Stroke of Luck.
Druids, Paladins, and Clerics will regain Channel Divinity.
Barbarians (15th level) Relentless Rage DC resets.
Fighters (2nd level) regain Action Surge.
Sorcerers (15th level) Sorcerous Restoration regain 4 Sorcery points, same upon rolling Initiative.
Warlocks regain nothing on Short Rests.
Wizards (2nd level) regain spell slots with Arcane Recovery.
While I would like each class to regain something comparable on Short Rests, that does not seem to be the direction the design team is moving.
in dnd "Time" isn't a stable metric. At its core the game is narrative and as such the narrative stretches and shrinks time. often we don't care about how long things happen it just becomes a vague issue. most tables don't count rounds outside of combat. a person searching a desk, room , loot pile isn't given a "time" until it makes a difference such as how much you can do while the Caster preforms their ritual.
So what does this mean for rests. In particular saying 10 Min or even an hour or 8 hours are meaningless without practical definitions. This is where other games or editions use generic phrases like "while in area of relative safety." For rpg s these phrases are usually more technically accurate than just saying when you take 10 min.
So really the issues with short rests are at least partly adventure pacing design problem not a class problem. In particular 5e was designed with a pacing some dms don't use. and as Psyren said encounters aren't all combat but some players/dms don't see the game that way.
one solution is to train dms along the lines of pacing. Another is to change the class design to match. You can do a little of both but the community is obsessed focused on the classes. Now because wotc is insisting on "compatibility" the best approach IMO is to do most of the work for dms. They really need to Teach dms about non combat encounters and how chaining encounters increases the difficulty. Many RPGs use the concept of "scenes" to help control pacing for abilities and they are not incomparable with 5e(sorry for the double negative). that is one approach to create clear pacing. There are others.
Aren't the devs already set on getting rid of short rest mechanics? Isn't that the reason that Tasha's onwards Subclasses all get stuff recharged on long rest? If so, what's the consequence of this discussion for purposes of OneD&D?
They could adopt a system similar to what is used in Dragonbane. Once per day characters can take a minute to catch your breath and refocus mentally to trigger effects like spell slot recovery/ki recovery/etc but you can't roll hit dice. Then on top of that you're allowed to take one 10 minute short rest once per day where you can roll hit dice to regain HP on top of your mental recovery effects. Once you use both of those up you need to get back to safety to long rest as long resting is not allowed in hostile areas.
Finding an hour to take a short rest, depending on how the adventure is set up, can be difficult.
Some classes are far more dependent on short rests than others, and would thus want to rest when other classes want to push onward.
Unlimited short rests per day, depending on the resource being recovered, can cause severe issues (see Coffeelock for example)
If you look at the encounter design guidelines in the 5e DMG, it appears that they were assuming two short rests per day. It's just that there's no mechanism to enforce that. So, my proposal is really simple:
Short Rests Require Spending at least Half Your Level (minimum 1) Hit Dice
The purpose here is very simple: you can only take two short rests per adventuring day (technically, you can take 3 at level 3...nbd)
Short Rests Take 10 Minutes
This is a lot easier to fit into an adventure timeline. I chose 10 minutes because it matches the time to perform a ritual, and most classes that don't have much use for short rests are ritual casters.
The problem with Short Rests is that Long Rests are too good, & characters that benefit from Short Rest features (Warlock) also benefit from Long Rest features, but classes that benefit most from Long Rest (Most Casters) don't benefit as much from Short Rest.
The drawback to Long Rests is they take 8 hours.. except they don't. To the player's perspective they are instant.
If a party has a Warlock, Cleric, Druid and Fighter, the Warlock might want a Short Rest, and the Cleric, Druid and Fighter will vote for Long Rest every time.
They only take 8 hours meaningfully when the DM imposes a time-limit to a dungeon or adventure in some way. The DMG presumes the DM will do this. But most DMs seemingly aren't and haven't ever. The pace of the game the DMG supposes of 6 encounters in 'a day' is nonsense on the face of it, the game is too slow and this is possibly the fastest version of it in a long time. A whole dungeon might get 6 encounters.
Changing the Short Rest feature to 10 minutes makes them more tempting but doesn't solve the initial problem (this problem was very well alive in 4th Edition as well).
Ultimately the reason this feature fails is due to designing for a method of play virtually no table seems to be doing (and even the published adventures aren't written with this presumption either).
Mathematically it might work out, but nobody is rolling 6 medium encounters a session.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but when both cost the same (nothing), then the "correct" answer is always Long Rest.
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Short rest problems come in three flavors:
If you look at the encounter design guidelines in the 5e DMG, it appears that they were assuming two short rests per day. It's just that there's no mechanism to enforce that. So, my proposal is really simple:
Short Rests Require Spending at least Half Your Level (minimum 1) Hit Dice
The purpose here is very simple: you can only take two short rests per adventuring day (technically, you can take 3 at level 3...nbd)
Short Rests Take 10 Minutes
This is a lot easier to fit into an adventure timeline. I chose 10 minutes because it matches the time to perform a ritual, and most classes that don't have much use for short rests are ritual casters.
Problem: feats, features, and items that allow/force you to expend hit dice turn off short rests in this model, which is supposed to encourage/force short rests.
Suggestion: add the line "you cannot benefit from another short rest until you complete a long rest" to the rules for short rests. Then rejigger game around the assumption of only one pacing-killing adventure stopping siesta per day. It's easy to remember if your last rest was long or short so none of this "did we already take two short rests today?" buggery that just arbitrarily limiting short rests would lead to. You can alternate short and long or you can skip the shorts because everybody does, but it eliminates edge case cheese like Coffeelock and gives a stable, reliable, expectable level of performance to goddamn freaking short rests.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think 15 minutes would be good for a short rest.
To fix short rests at my table I actually made an adjustment to long rests in that you only regain half your HP maximum on along rest but regain all Hit Dice on a long rest. That has the effect of encouraging PCs to o actually want to take short rests since Hit Dice become a “free” free resource but HP are more restricted.
I also wish that all classes had some features that reset on a short rest as that would also encourage them. That’s why when I create subclasses for long rest/no rest classes, I try to give them subclass features that reset on a short rest. Conversely, I give subclasses for short rest classes features that reset on long rests or require no resets to give them something for when the party can’t/doesn’t take short rests. I think if all classes were redesigned to benefit from both short and long rests it would solve a lot of problems.
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I'm not sure how to vote. I agree in part with the spending of hit dice, but 1/2 your level seems harsh. Like warlocks may be balanced around 2, but there still would be times they only get 1 or maybe 0, so opening up the possibility for 3 or 4 seems right to me. I think just requiring at least one hit die to be spent would be enough as generally you will be needing those to regain health as well. Outside the really low levels I'm spending multiple when I take a short rest anyways as if I'm down hit points is rarely just 5 or something. Further more assuming they keep only regain 1/2 your hit dice on a short rest the warlock would always be behind. But sure 10 minute short rests would solve the I can;t take short rests problem for people who aren't taking it to the absurdly extreme.
Honestly, the concept of hit dice in 5e was poorly thought out, I'd rather just have
Short Rest: recover half your max hit points. You may only take two short rests per day.
and toss the entire concept of hit dice, but there's just enough mechanics that key off of them that it's impractical.
1) The first one screws over parties with no dedicated healer, which defeats the purpose of Hit Dice healing on a short rest to begin with. (Not to mention all the other things they are planning for us to spend Hit Dice on, see Adept of the Black Robes.)
2) The second one turns every short rest ability into an encounter power which is not how they're designed. The expectation is that you'll have to do without them for some fights, at least if you're following the 6-8 guidance which is also found in the DMG.
I actually like rolling Hit Dice. It feels right to me.
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I really like the IDEA of hit dice. A pool of dice that represents your vitality and vigor, and thus a way to spend that vitality and vigor without direct HP loss, is a really cool mechanic.
Wizards absolutely *refuses* to use it the way it's begging to be used.
Why can't I expend hit dice to enhance my spells with blood magic? Why is there no psychic class that expends hit dice to empower its abilities, in homage to all the tropes of psychic powers putting great strain on the brain/body? Why are there no enemies that steal your hit dice to fuel their own healing, no vitality leeches? Why does Exhaustion not interact with hit dice in any way? Why are there so few feats that make use of hit dice, and all they ever do is fake a short rest?
Wizards gave us a super cool, story-rich resource and effectively no way to spend it except to not play D&D for an hour to regain some HP. That SUCKS. I want all the GOOD SHIT we could get by having this mechanical structure that represents vitality and vigor without representing *health*.
Please do not contact or message me.
I'd say they're working on the "blood magic" stuff. Again, I point to Dragonlance which was their first ever foray into weaponizing hit dice in this way (to my knowledge.) I could definitely see other setting-specific groups doing this kind of thing, like Rakdos and Golgari from the Ravnica setting.
Give it time, in other words. But in the meantime, monkeying too much with short rests and what they do is going to make things more complicated than not.
Neither of these arguments make any sense to me.
1) does not screw over parties with no dedicated healer. You get exactly the same amount of healing per day as you get currently. The point of (1) is to make sure that you can't take more than two short rests per day. As for adept of the black robes: they really aren't going to suffer from only getting one short rest per day.
2) If you have 6-8 encounters, you aren't going to short rest after every encounter for the simple reason that (1) means you only get two short rests per day.
1) Under the proposal, you're forced to spend half your HD to get the benefits of the rest whether that makes tactical sense/is wasteful or not. You don't see any problem?
2) Not all encounters are combat encounters, the 6-8 includes the other two pillars as well. So your ability to have short rest powers up for every combat or most combats is increased if short rests take substantially less time, even if you get the same number of them.
This may come as a surprise, but from what I understand, people do change how often you can get a short rest.
The problem?
Its usually LENGTHENING them. Making short rests into 8hours and long rests into "til next downtime."
For the people who like these super gritty, low healing, low resources games? Making 10 minute short rests is counter productive. I see this proposed solution to the warlock pact magic constantly. However? It is NOT a simple nor elegant solution. It changes much, and in a direction quite a number of people dislike in their games.
EDIT - if you want Pact Magic / Ki to still recharge after 10 minute break, that's something that's going to have to come from within those classes. Because changing short rests come with a large number of compounding issues for a significant number of tables and players.
Not sure what that has to do with the proposed idea(s)? Gritty Realism rules are optional for a reason. Yes, making long rests rare and impractical to obtain "fixes" short rests but not in any way anybody is really concerned with on this or other threads.
Please do not contact or message me.
No. If you're not hurt (which is the usual reason to not want to spend hit dice) do something else for those ten minutes. Not everyone needs to rest at the same time.
The DMG standard is for combat encounters -- the 6-8 figure comes from dividing the daily budget by the budget for a medium encounter.
My point is that people are aware of the ability to change short rests and generally don't want it, because they understand that there's implications behind it. All these "change short rests to fix old warlock" always claim its simple answer when it is not.
Trying to balance a warlock around making short rests more common and easier to take comes with problems and complications.
While I think Short Rests (particularly which classes are affected by short rests) need fixing, the proposed solution has issues that were already mentioned by others. Let's analyze the situation.
Adventuring days can be a variety of types. This depends on table, DM, adventure, or dungeon.
So in my mind Short Rests are to (1) give each class a way to recover HP using Hit Dice and (2) provide a way to recover resources on long dungeon crawls.
Reviewing each 1DnD class released so far:
While I would like each class to regain something comparable on Short Rests, that does not seem to be the direction the design team is moving.
in dnd "Time" isn't a stable metric. At its core the game is narrative and as such the narrative stretches and shrinks time. often we don't care about how long things happen it just becomes a vague issue. most tables don't count rounds outside of combat. a person searching a desk, room , loot pile isn't given a "time" until it makes a difference such as how much you can do while the Caster preforms their ritual.
So what does this mean for rests. In particular saying 10 Min or even an hour or 8 hours are meaningless without practical definitions. This is where other games or editions use generic phrases like "while in area of relative safety." For rpg s these phrases are usually more technically accurate than just saying when you take 10 min.
So really the issues with short rests are at least partly adventure pacing design problem not a class problem. In particular 5e was designed with a pacing some dms don't use. and as Psyren said encounters aren't all combat but some players/dms don't see the game that way.
one solution is to train dms along the lines of pacing. Another is to change the class design to match. You can do a little of both but the community is
obsessedfocused on the classes. Now because wotc is insisting on "compatibility" the best approach IMO is to do most of the work for dms. They really need to Teach dms about non combat encounters and how chaining encounters increases the difficulty. Many RPGs use the concept of "scenes" to help control pacing for abilities and they are not incomparable with 5e(sorry for the double negative). that is one approach to create clear pacing. There are others.Aren't the devs already set on getting rid of short rest mechanics? Isn't that the reason that Tasha's onwards Subclasses all get stuff recharged on long rest? If so, what's the consequence of this discussion for purposes of OneD&D?
They could adopt a system similar to what is used in Dragonbane. Once per day characters can take a minute to catch your breath and refocus mentally to trigger effects like spell slot recovery/ki recovery/etc but you can't roll hit dice. Then on top of that you're allowed to take one 10 minute short rest once per day where you can roll hit dice to regain HP on top of your mental recovery effects. Once you use both of those up you need to get back to safety to long rest as long resting is not allowed in hostile areas.
The problem with Short Rests is that Long Rests are too good, & characters that benefit from Short Rest features (Warlock) also benefit from Long Rest features, but classes that benefit most from Long Rest (Most Casters) don't benefit as much from Short Rest.
The drawback to Long Rests is they take 8 hours.. except they don't. To the player's perspective they are instant.
If a party has a Warlock, Cleric, Druid and Fighter, the Warlock might want a Short Rest, and the Cleric, Druid and Fighter will vote for Long Rest every time.
They only take 8 hours meaningfully when the DM imposes a time-limit to a dungeon or adventure in some way. The DMG presumes the DM will do this. But most DMs seemingly aren't and haven't ever. The pace of the game the DMG supposes of 6 encounters in 'a day' is nonsense on the face of it, the game is too slow and this is possibly the fastest version of it in a long time. A whole dungeon might get 6 encounters.
Changing the Short Rest feature to 10 minutes makes them more tempting but doesn't solve the initial problem (this problem was very well alive in 4th Edition as well).
Ultimately the reason this feature fails is due to designing for a method of play virtually no table seems to be doing (and even the published adventures aren't written with this presumption either).
Mathematically it might work out, but nobody is rolling 6 medium encounters a session.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but when both cost the same (nothing), then the "correct" answer is always Long Rest.
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