If we're altering wording. I think Ehanced Arcane Focus shouldn't be restricted to wand/staff/rod. It should also include the Tool Sets that the artificer can use as a focus... sure it mostly only comes up with Alchemist-who requires the tools in specific to gain their bonus damage (where as artilirist can use their firearm which can stack with the EAF or a normal magical wand).
Alchemist can't actually use EAF if they want Int to heal/damage I believe.. as they're both required to use a specific focus and you can not overlap them.
Technically you can overlap them. EAF only requires that you be holding the item not that it actually be used as a focus. So hold the EAF in one hand and whatever bit from your alchemist supplies in the other hand and bam. The mechanical benefits from both. It can be awkward to imagine it directly. But it works mechanically.
My favorite image of using the EAF in this way is to literally use this enhanced wand as a stirring rod to help activate a chemical reaction. Or if you're flavoring the EAF as a gun-like object load it up with enhanced alchemical ammo ("crafted" using your alchemist supplies) and fire that spell at your foes.
Granted, I still very much would like infusions that can be applied to tools (hence the homebrew one I posted earlier).
Well.. now I want improvised weapons and have the EAF Rod as my Self Defense Baton--that also sprays stuff like Poison Spray or Shocking Grasp. Probably combine it somehow.
Though the EAF implies it must be the focus kind of Rod. It would be hilarious to be allowed to use a Alchemy Kit's stirring rod as the EAF. Rawr let me wave this tiny glass rod at your face. Or as you said Stir this beaker agressively while giving them the eye of death before tossing it at them. yep. That is a great way to think of it. Thanks
Technically you can overlap them. EAF only requires that you be holding the item not that it actually be used as a focus. So hold the EAF in one hand and whatever bit from your alchemist supplies in the other hand and bam. The mechanical benefits from both. It can be awkward to imagine it directly. But it works mechanically.
My favorite image of using the EAF in this way is to literally use this enhanced wand as a stirring rod to help activate a chemical reaction. Or if you're flavoring the EAF as a gun-like object load it up with enhanced alchemical ammo ("crafted" using your alchemist supplies) and fire that spell at your foes.
Granted, I still very much would like infusions that can be applied to tools (hence the homebrew one I posted earlier).
This is exactly they kind of answer I was looking for! You're right it only says you need to hold it. You can't hold a shield anymore, though. But you can now choose between offense and defense.
Maybe use a rod like some sort of antenna, to channel arcane energy into your alchemical concoctions before using them.
Realistically, why bother with an EAF? It is only useful to 5 artificer spells and 4 of those are cantrips. The only non-cantrip spell is 5th level (Bigby's Hand). The EAF also uses one of your attunement slots - this part may not be a big deal since you get additional, but I can easily see the EAF being the first dropped attuned item.
If you really want to use an EAF for those few and get the alchemist bonus then point out that in the players handbook arcane focus is not limited to Wand/Staff/Rod and that the listing in Eberron is shorthand for a general arcane focus and not meant to be a hard limitation.
Enhanced Arcane Focus specifies wand/rod/staff so alchemists aren't double-dipping EAF with Alchemical Savant. Based on the way abilities are written, they intend for that to be the wheelhouse of the artillerist. The mad scientists chucking smoking vials get more consistent damage by applying int bonus, artillerists get random damage and ignore half cover.
Large portion is because the Alchemist is cantrip reliant (or one attack via weapon). I'd argue the artilirist and the alchemist are inclined to use EAF. They both have their own way of adding damage (d8 or int). Artilist just works simplier. but in general the Alchemist has slightly awkward wording and or requirements compared to the other two. My alchemist will probably have a shield, but I wouldn't mind rocking Rod in one hand, Tools in the other to get more accurate cantrip damage.
Enhanced Arcane Focus specifies wand/rod/staff so alchemists aren't double-dipping EAF with Alchemical Savant. Based on the way abilities are written, they intend for that to be the wheelhouse of the artillerist. The mad scientists chucking smoking vials get more consistent damage by applying int bonus, artillerists get random damage and ignore half cover.
How is it that Alch's cant double dip but Artilrist can? Their lv 5 isn't inherently different than the alchemists. Except for the ease of doubleing up with a mundane non magical rod as the base for the lv5 and EAF. (compared to Alchemist requireing two hands). It would've made sense if Alchemists were set up to be the "save cantrip" based concept Like Clerics kind of are. The "not really physical attacker, but also no targeting cantrips" situation they have.
Actuallly this situation is one reason I sort of wish they had gotten Toll the Dead, so they could be more Save based like a Cleric style. There is Bonfire and a few other save b ased of course-I love poison spray, but toll the dead is the main one with actualy decent range. Well just another reason I'm inclined for magic initiate wizard I guess
I'm only interpreting what's written. I may be getting the reasoning wrong, but the rules are written the way they are for a reason.
Also, regarding a rod in one hand, tools in the other...one or the other would be acting as a focus. Not channeling through both objects, only one bonus would be applied per spell anyway. So something g like firebolt through the rod, poison spray, healing touch, etc through the alchemy tools. But that would cause you to lose INT to damage on the rod spells.
EAF doesnt' have to function as a focus actually. Only held. "While holding this item, a creature gains a +1 bonus to spell attack rolls. In addition, the creature ignores half cover when making a spell attack." Alchemist supplies do infact require being the focus though.
Now maybe EAF was intended to be used as a focus to gain the benefit, but that isn't how its written (to me anyway). It only requires being held as far as I can tell. As far as I am aware you should be able to hold both, and use the tools as the focus alright.
not being able to use a shield with combo will hurt a looot. As other than firebolt, you wont' have a lot of longer than 60ft range choices inherently. Also just generalized limitation of handedness/cantrip based combat
It's worded similar to Wand of the War Mage and that item is probably worded how it is specifically because some Wizard, Sorceror, or Warlock spells don't require an arcane focus and so those wouldn't RAW benefit from the +1 if it required "casting a spell using this wand as a spellcasting focus" since for them a spellcasting focus just replaces most material components.
I'm only interpreting what's written. I may be getting the reasoning wrong, but the rules are written the way they are for a reason.
Also, regarding a rod in one hand, tools in the other...one or the other would be acting as a focus. Not channeling through both objects, only one bonus would be applied per spell anyway. So something g like firebolt through the rod, poison spray, healing touch, etc through the alchemy tools. But that would cause you to lose INT to damage on the rod spells.
I'm honestly curious as to why they're written that way. The artillerist can double dip and get the damage from their pet. The battle smith gets an extra attack and pet support. While the alchemist gets a random effect? If the potions weren't random and somehow scaled with tier. What was there thought process that they ranked all 3 subclasses equally effective?
EAF doesnt' have to function as a focus actually. Only held. "While holding this item, a creature gains a +1 bonus to spell attack rolls. In addition, the creature ignores half cover when making a spell attack." Alchemist supplies do infact require being the focus though.
Now maybe EAF was intended to be used as a focus to gain the benefit, but that isn't how its written (to me anyway). It only requires being held as far as I can tell. As far as I am aware you should be able to hold both, and use the tools as the focus alright.
not being able to use a shield with combo will hurt a looot. As other than firebolt, you wont' have a lot of longer than 60ft range choices inherently. Also just generalized limitation of handedness/cantrip based combat
Nice catch!
And yes, that sounds right. So you should make sure that your spell cast needs a focus (alchemist tools) and you hold the wand in the other hand. I like how that all makes sense now.
And after all, I can see why the alchemist is rather balanced, despite looking very underpowered compared to the rest.
Hmm, I gotta say, I don't think its balanced compared to the other subclasses. Too many features fight each other. the main issue (for me still, as I play mine) is that B.Smith can go at it for most of the day, and can get away with not using much resources, and such due to pet and weapon. Artilirist has a good damabe bonus---that can be applied to items that work in concert with other class features (taking a mundane rod or wand and you can have EAF and lv5 in one hand, and still have a shield or a weapon/etc in the other hand) and 1 slot gets them 1 hr (or until killed) feature. Where as Alchemist must always have a dead hand (holding tools--though can be improvised weapon I guess) that doesn't combine with other features, (i.e. the above "two hand for eaf and lv5, or give up one of them for a shield). and the slots to elixirs are 1:1, while the elixir effects last the shortest of all the choices. And, you present as a very lovely target--once you show yourself as a healer, or if you don't have a shield. Or you might be viewed as ignorable to an extent-since you spent your slots of elixirs and now you just plink with a cantrip every round (cause your reserving last few slots for bonus action healing)
So I can't call it well balanced in terms of subclass options. But I rather enjoy it. It certainly works, but it doesn't jive or work similiar to anything else in the game I can think of. It works more similiarly (in terms of resource gobbling/limitation) to Warlocks it sort of feels like. Except it doesn't have renewel. Lot of fun though.
~home brew topics below~ I think it would be a bit better aligned if you could spend 1 spell slot and gain the random exlirs back (but have them not random) so that the economy of it would scale as you leveled up. As well as giving 5 total random elixirs. This would let you actuallly get use out of them, and would make it so you still have a use at higher levels to spend a spell slot on them. Since I've noticed as I level up-they're getting far less useful outside of specific choices (handing off Temp HP+heal or Temphp+AC mainly- The D4 would work better if anyone remembered to add their d4) the utility ones just fall off in terms of applicability as levels and items become more plentiful). but that kind of ratio for the 1 slot would make it work due to how very limited slots wise you have (more so if you are the off healer-I can't imagine how it would work if you were the main one)
I would personally enjoy it more if they either brought back the Alchemist Satchen bag--which counts as Alchemical Tools for focus purposes--for free Acid/ Alch fire/Tanglefoot/Thunderstone/healing elixirs. Unless otherwise stated, all items last only until the end of the current round before becoming innert. Acid/alch fire working as per the items (to avoid confusion), doing 2d6+dex or 1d4+dex(per rd) (cause they're ranged attacks). Tanglefoot doing a Save vs restrained or making difficult terrain. Thundrestand doing Save vs knock down or knock back changing the ranges to 20/60. (not that that causes any issues with the save based ones) Could possibly give option of INT to hit/damage, instead of dex. If sticking with dex only, then I'd have it so it adds Int to damage at lv 5. Healing Elixir doing 1d8 (+int after lv 5). Scales in the same way as cantrips. Only effects a person once per long rest. You can have up to INT in existance at a given time. They become innert when you take your next long rest.
That would give them something better than cantrips-something fun as well with choices. ALso would remove the awkward "spells vs elixirs" problem. I would also take some kind of Infusion that created something like that. Even if it was a specific to Alchemist infusion. Though I think it does too much for an infusion. So if an infusion I would cut back and limit it to Acid/Alch fire, with the expanded range. (and no interaction with INT). Would count as Alchemist Tools still.
if you cannot think of anything that fits YOU, try thinking of infusions that might fit your party, the artificer is like tha bard in that while it stands on its own and can be used in many difrent ways from tank to dps, its main focus is support, and alchemist takes that idea a bit further.
If you really have no idea, try spending all your gold on 100gp gemstones and build yourself an small army of humonculi. while you only have one bonus action per turn, meaning that mot of your little minions will have absolutely nothing to do, you can have them carry you everywhere to flex on you fellow party members
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I’m not 100% sure yet, but I’m pretty sure that the two house rules that I will be using for any Alchemists in the campaign I DM for will be as follows if you care to take a look. I think they will balance the subclass better with the other two. For Experimental Elixir I have underlined what I have Changed.
“Experimental Elixir. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever you finish a long rest, you can either magically produce an experimental elixir in an empty flask you touch, or maintain an existing experimental elixir. Roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir's effect, which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir. As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature. Creating an experimental elixir requires you to have alchemist supplies on your person, and any elixir you create with this feature lasts until it is drunk, or until the end of your next long rest unless you have maintained it. When you reach certain levels in this class, you can make or maintain more elixirs at the end of a long rest: two at 6th level and three at 15th level. Roll for each elixir's effect separately. Each elixir requires its own flask. You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir's effect from the Experimental Elixir table.”
And:
”Alchemical Homunculi. Whenever you use an Infusion to create a Homunculus Servant, you instead create an Alchemical Homunculus as described in the Wayfarer’s Guide to Eberron.”
I don't think you can have multiple hummunculi out and about at once right? Just the one? LIke any other infusion. 1 slot only and only one iteration.
If you could have multiple though, that would be quite a dandy way to shove Cure Wounds on folks at a distance. Which is the main reason I am looking at humculus. Rather than using it to actually attack. I like the idea of it hanging out with certain party members (depending on the situation). So they can either use the Help Action to give advantage- or for the Reaction to cast my Cure Wounds spell (as it'll heal more than healing word). Well I"m sure there are other good buffs too that I just don't remember at the moment. (as an Alchemist its interesting that I rarely use the slots for actual elixir. Outside of a few specific "that monster looks scary before we go into this room t ake these D4's and you take this AC")
Technically you can overlap them. EAF only requires that you be holding the item not that it actually be used as a focus. So hold the EAF in one hand and whatever bit from your alchemist supplies in the other hand and bam. The mechanical benefits from both. It can be awkward to imagine it directly. But it works mechanically.
My favorite image of using the EAF in this way is to literally use this enhanced wand as a stirring rod to help activate a chemical reaction. Or if you're flavoring the EAF as a gun-like object load it up with enhanced alchemical ammo ("crafted" using your alchemist supplies) and fire that spell at your foes.
Granted, I still very much would like infusions that can be applied to tools (hence the homebrew one I posted earlier).
Well.. now I want improvised weapons and have the EAF Rod as my Self Defense Baton--that also sprays stuff like Poison Spray or Shocking Grasp. Probably combine it somehow.
Though the EAF implies it must be the focus kind of Rod. It would be hilarious to be allowed to use a Alchemy Kit's stirring rod as the EAF. Rawr let me wave this tiny glass rod at your face. Or as you said Stir this beaker agressively while giving them the eye of death before tossing it at them.
yep. That is a great way to think of it. Thanks
This is exactly they kind of answer I was looking for! You're right it only says you need to hold it. You can't hold a shield anymore, though. But you can now choose between offense and defense.
Maybe use a rod like some sort of antenna, to channel arcane energy into your alchemical concoctions before using them.
It says “holding,” does it specify “in hand?” Could a character with a prehensile tail hold it with that?
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Realistically, why bother with an EAF? It is only useful to 5 artificer spells and 4 of those are cantrips. The only non-cantrip spell is 5th level (Bigby's Hand). The EAF also uses one of your attunement slots - this part may not be a big deal since you get additional, but I can easily see the EAF being the first dropped attuned item.
If you really want to use an EAF for those few and get the alchemist bonus then point out that in the players handbook arcane focus is not limited to Wand/Staff/Rod and that the listing in Eberron is shorthand for a general arcane focus and not meant to be a hard limitation.
Enhanced Arcane Focus specifies wand/rod/staff so alchemists aren't double-dipping EAF with Alchemical Savant. Based on the way abilities are written, they intend for that to be the wheelhouse of the artillerist. The mad scientists chucking smoking vials get more consistent damage by applying int bonus, artillerists get random damage and ignore half cover.
Large portion is because the Alchemist is cantrip reliant (or one attack via weapon).
I'd argue the artilirist and the alchemist are inclined to use EAF. They both have their own way of adding damage (d8 or int). Artilist just works simplier.
but in general the Alchemist has slightly awkward wording and or requirements compared to the other two.
My alchemist will probably have a shield, but I wouldn't mind rocking Rod in one hand, Tools in the other to get more accurate cantrip damage.
How is it that Alch's cant double dip but Artilrist can? Their lv 5 isn't inherently different than the alchemists. Except for the ease of doubleing up with a mundane non magical rod as the base for the lv5 and EAF. (compared to Alchemist requireing two hands). It would've made sense if Alchemists were set up to be the "save cantrip" based concept Like Clerics kind of are. The "not really physical attacker, but also no targeting cantrips" situation they have.
Actuallly this situation is one reason I sort of wish they had gotten Toll the Dead, so they could be more Save based like a Cleric style. There is Bonfire and a few other save b ased of course-I love poison spray, but toll the dead is the main one with actualy decent range.
Well just another reason I'm inclined for magic initiate wizard I guess
I'm only interpreting what's written. I may be getting the reasoning wrong, but the rules are written the way they are for a reason.
Also, regarding a rod in one hand, tools in the other...one or the other would be acting as a focus. Not channeling through both objects, only one bonus would be applied per spell anyway. So something g like firebolt through the rod, poison spray, healing touch, etc through the alchemy tools. But that would cause you to lose INT to damage on the rod spells.
EAF doesnt' have to function as a focus actually. Only held. "While holding this item, a creature gains a +1 bonus to spell attack rolls. In addition, the creature ignores half cover when making a spell attack." Alchemist supplies do infact require being the focus though.
Now maybe EAF was intended to be used as a focus to gain the benefit, but that isn't how its written (to me anyway). It only requires being held as far as I can tell. As far as I am aware you should be able to hold both, and use the tools as the focus alright.
not being able to use a shield with combo will hurt a looot. As other than firebolt, you wont' have a lot of longer than 60ft range choices inherently. Also just generalized limitation of handedness/cantrip based combat
It's worded similar to Wand of the War Mage and that item is probably worded how it is specifically because some Wizard, Sorceror, or Warlock spells don't require an arcane focus and so those wouldn't RAW benefit from the +1 if it required "casting a spell using this wand as a spellcasting focus" since for them a spellcasting focus just replaces most material components.
I'm honestly curious as to why they're written that way. The artillerist can double dip and get the damage from their pet. The battle smith gets an extra attack and pet support. While the alchemist gets a random effect? If the potions weren't random and somehow scaled with tier. What was there thought process that they ranked all 3 subclasses equally effective?
Nice catch!
And yes, that sounds right. So you should make sure that your spell cast needs a focus (alchemist tools) and you hold the wand in the other hand. I like how that all makes sense now.
And after all, I can see why the alchemist is rather balanced, despite looking very underpowered compared to the rest.
Hmm, I gotta say, I don't think its balanced compared to the other subclasses.
Too many features fight each other. the main issue (for me still, as I play mine) is that B.Smith can go at it for most of the day, and can get away with not using much resources, and such due to pet and weapon. Artilirist has a good damabe bonus---that can be applied to items that work in concert with other class features (taking a mundane rod or wand and you can have EAF and lv5 in one hand, and still have a shield or a weapon/etc in the other hand) and 1 slot gets them 1 hr (or until killed) feature.
Where as Alchemist must always have a dead hand (holding tools--though can be improvised weapon I guess) that doesn't combine with other features, (i.e. the above "two hand for eaf and lv5, or give up one of them for a shield). and the slots to elixirs are 1:1, while the elixir effects last the shortest of all the choices. And, you present as a very lovely target--once you show yourself as a healer, or if you don't have a shield. Or you might be viewed as ignorable to an extent-since you spent your slots of elixirs and now you just plink with a cantrip every round (cause your reserving last few slots for bonus action healing)
So I can't call it well balanced in terms of subclass options. But I rather enjoy it. It certainly works, but it doesn't jive or work similiar to anything else in the game I can think of. It works more similiarly (in terms of resource gobbling/limitation) to Warlocks it sort of feels like. Except it doesn't have renewel. Lot of fun though.
~home brew topics below~
I think it would be a bit better aligned if you could spend 1 spell slot and gain the random exlirs back (but have them not random) so that the economy of it would scale as you leveled up. As well as giving 5 total random elixirs. This would let you actuallly get use out of them, and would make it so you still have a use at higher levels to spend a spell slot on them. Since I've noticed as I level up-they're getting far less useful outside of specific choices (handing off Temp HP+heal or Temphp+AC mainly- The D4 would work better if anyone remembered to add their d4) the utility ones just fall off in terms of applicability as levels and items become more plentiful).
but that kind of ratio for the 1 slot would make it work due to how very limited slots wise you have (more so if you are the off healer-I can't imagine how it would work if you were the main one)
I would personally enjoy it more if they either brought back the Alchemist Satchen bag--which counts as Alchemical Tools for focus purposes--for free Acid/ Alch fire/Tanglefoot/Thunderstone/healing elixirs. Unless otherwise stated, all items last only until the end of the current round before becoming innert.
Acid/alch fire working as per the items (to avoid confusion), doing 2d6+dex or 1d4+dex(per rd) (cause they're ranged attacks).
Tanglefoot doing a Save vs restrained or making difficult terrain.
Thundrestand doing Save vs knock down or knock back
changing the ranges to 20/60. (not that that causes any issues with the save based ones) Could possibly give option of INT to hit/damage, instead of dex. If sticking with dex only, then I'd have it so it adds Int to damage at lv 5.
Healing Elixir doing 1d8 (+int after lv 5). Scales in the same way as cantrips. Only effects a person once per long rest. You can have up to INT in existance at a given time. They become innert when you take your next long rest.
That would give them something better than cantrips-something fun as well with choices. ALso would remove the awkward "spells vs elixirs" problem.
I would also take some kind of Infusion that created something like that. Even if it was a specific to Alchemist infusion. Though I think it does too much for an infusion. So if an infusion I would cut back and limit it to Acid/Alch fire, with the expanded range. (and no interaction with INT). Would count as Alchemist Tools still.
if you cannot think of anything that fits YOU, try thinking of infusions that might fit your party, the artificer is like tha bard in that while it stands on its own and can be used in many difrent ways from tank to dps, its main focus is support, and alchemist takes that idea a bit further.
If you really have no idea, try spending all your gold on 100gp gemstones and build yourself an small army of humonculi. while you only have one bonus action per turn, meaning that mot of your little minions will have absolutely nothing to do, you can have them carry you everywhere to flex on you fellow party members
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Zwordsman,
I’m not 100% sure yet, but I’m pretty sure that the two house rules that I will be using for any Alchemists in the campaign I DM for will be as follows if you care to take a look. I think they will balance the subclass better with the other two. For Experimental Elixir I have underlined what I have Changed.
“Experimental Elixir.
Beginning at 3rd level, whenever you finish a long rest, you can either magically produce an experimental elixir in an empty flask you touch, or maintain an existing experimental elixir. Roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir's effect, which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir. As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature.
Creating an experimental elixir requires you to have alchemist supplies on your person, and any elixir you create with this feature lasts until it is drunk, or until the end of your next long rest unless you have maintained it.
When you reach certain levels in this class, you can make or maintain more elixirs at the end of a long rest: two at 6th level and three at 15th level. Roll for each elixir's effect separately. Each elixir requires its own flask.
You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir's effect from the Experimental Elixir table.”
And:
”Alchemical Homunculi. Whenever you use an Infusion to create a Homunculus Servant, you instead create an Alchemical Homunculus as described in the Wayfarer’s Guide to Eberron.”
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I don't think you can have multiple hummunculi out and about at once right? Just the one? LIke any other infusion. 1 slot only and only one iteration.
If you could have multiple though, that would be quite a dandy way to shove Cure Wounds on folks at a distance. Which is the main reason I am looking at humculus. Rather than using it to actually attack. I like the idea of it hanging out with certain party members (depending on the situation). So they can either use the Help Action to give advantage- or for the Reaction to cast my Cure Wounds spell (as it'll heal more than healing word). Well I"m sure there are other good buffs too that I just don't remember at the moment.
(as an Alchemist its interesting that I rarely use the slots for actual elixir. Outside of a few specific "that monster looks scary before we go into this room t ake these D4's and you take this AC")
healing someone isnt an ability check nothing is doubled sadly:(