This is getting silly, can someone point me to the part of the PHB where it delineates the difference between "armor" and a "suit of armor" I looked and couldn't find it. You are adding rules where there are none, and this entire discussion has devolved into those who believe the rules as written are actually rules as intended. The RAW does not define armor as a "suit" or "not a suit" and because Tasha's removed heavy armor as a requirement then leather armor will work as power armor because that is exactly how the rules are written.
Until someone can show me in a rule book or errata where "Gauntlets" or "Thunder Gauntlets" have a value of sp1 or greater then RULES AS WRITTEN do not allow the use BB or GFB. You can argue all you want about what the rules intend or what can be implied by the rules, but as they are written the spells do not work with Thunder Gauntlets.
By all means in your home game follow the logic and make it work, that is what I am doing. But if I was going to run an AL game, which wants the players to be miserable, then I'd stick to the RAW so I did not set any of my players up for disappointment and argument when they go to their next AL game with a different DM. It is a crappy situation but imagine for a moment that you are at a Con and you're playing in your first AL of the day, you're an Armorer level 3, and you try to use BB with Thunder Gauntlets. The DM knowing the RAW just hand waves it away, no harm no foul. Later in the day you're in another AL game, and this DM knowing the RAW says nope BB doesn't work with your Thunder Gauntlets, what kind of experience is that for the player who just had their character nerfed after they had already played it a different way. This is why the RAW is strict so that the play experience is consistent.
Scenerio: Armorer buys gauntlets, puts gauntlets on, makes gauntlets into Thunder Gauntlets, takes off gauntlets. They are no longer Thunder Gauntlets, thus cannot be sold as Thunder Gauntlets and cannot have a monetary value. The regular gauntlets can, but not as Thunder Gauntlets.
Scenerio: Armorer buys gauntlets, puts gauntlets on, makes gauntlets into Thunder Gauntlets, takes off gauntlets. They are no longer Thunder Gauntlets, thus cannot be sold as Thunder Gauntlets and cannot have a monetary value. The regular gauntlets can, but not as Thunder Gauntlets.
Armorer goes to buy gauntlets, realizes that gauntlets are not a discrete item in any rule book and therefore cannot buy them. Poor Armorer.
What I find really funny is that it's Thunder Gauntlets and cantrips that are causing an argument. It gets worse, check out Helm of Awareness, per RAW this infusion cannot be created because "Helm" is not a mundane item in any rule book and thus cannot be purchased to be infused. RAW are super dumb, which is why DMs are allowed leeway,
There is no difference between a suit of armor and armor in the books. If your suit of armor doesn't include gauntlets, the Arcane Armor produces them. However, if your armor already had gauntlets (like Plate Armor), they become Thunder Gauntlets, and they share the value of the set of armor you are wearing, thus RAW Thunder Gauntlets work with Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade. As pointed out by DevanAvalon, the suit of armor expands to cover your whole body, which causes the Gauntlets to be part of your Arcane Armor. Thus, even for Leather Armor or any other armor set worth at least 1 sp, BB/GFB works with Thunder Gauntlets.
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Actually in the books the phrase "Suit of Armor" is used to describe Heavy Armor in the equipment section of the Player's Handbook, none of the other armor types has that phrase in them. So you could say, by RAW Heavy armor is still the limitation for the Power Armor
Actually in the books the phrase "Suit of Armor" is used to describe Heavy Armor in the equipment section of the Player's Handbook, none of the other armor types has that phrase in them. So you could say, by RAW Heavy armor is still the limitation for the Power Armor
Except that there is no mechanical difference between "armor" and a "suit of armor", so they are considered the same thing.
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extending to cover them... as in extending to cover something that no longer exists, generating a new gauntlet which is then treated as a Thunder Gauntlet. *hmmm*
What is your point here?
Any gauntlets that appear in order to replace a missing limb are still part of the armour, because it's the armour itself that has extended to replace them. It's literally in the rule "Arcane Armor" feature describing how your suit of armour functions.
Thunder Gauntlets is a separate feature (part of Armor Model) which then causes the gauntlets that are part of the armour, if designated as the Guardian model, to also be usable as simple melee weapons. It does not specify they are an item in their own right in any way; you have arcane armour with the thunder gauntlets feature, you do not have separate armour and thunder gauntlets items, if that were the case the rule would say so (that's what Rules As Written means after all).
So are you arguing that thunder gauntlets do or do not have a value at this point? Because it's very clear that they do in RAW, as the only item involved is a suit of armour, any of which is worth more than 1sp.
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extending to cover them... as in extending to cover something that no longer exists, generating a new gauntlet which is then treated as a Thunder Gauntlet. *hmmm*
What is your point here?
Any gauntlets that appear in order to replace a missing limb are still part of the armour, because it's the armour itself that has extended to replace them. It's literally in the rule "Arcane Armor" feature describing how your suit of armour functions.
Thunder Gauntlets is a separate feature (part of Armor Model) which then causes the gauntlets that are part of the armour, if designated as the Guardian model, to also be usable as simple melee weapons. It does not specify they are an item in their own right in any way; you have arcane armour with the thunder gauntlets feature, you do not have separate armour and thunder gauntlets items, if that were the case the rule would say so (that's what Rules As Written means after all).
So are you arguing that thunder gauntlets do or do not have a value at this point? Because it's very clear that they do in RAW, as the only item involved is a suit of armour, any of which is worth more than 1sp.
except it is very clear they are not in RAW. they do not have a defined value. This is the only passage in Armorer that tells you the properties of the Thunder Gauntlets.
"Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit. A creature hit by the gauntlet has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn, as the armor magically emits a distracting pulse when the creature attacks someone else."
I do not see any of the listed properties including a defined gold value. Literally, this is all the rules say they have. These are the only properties they have. This is all there is on the Thunder Gauntlets.
I see no defined gold value. 100% strictly RAW, they do not have a value. and again, from the Arcane Armor feature: "The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces." Hmm, that means that if your arm gets chopped off, you get a whole new armor replacement... which would include a new Thunder Gauntlet. Which means that you can just infinitely make them. And if you removed the gauntlets at all, they cease being Thunder Gauntlets, so they have no defined value. They do not appear in any of the equipment listings in any of the books as a separate item, indicating no defined value in the books.
let me repeat: Strictly RAW they have no defined value and cannot be used for SCAGtrips.
yes, LOGICALLY AND AT THE TABLE, I agree they should and do work with the SCAGtrips, but if you have any DM (be it AL or otherwise) who needs a written in ink and paper on a WotC glossy page saying "Thunder Gauntlets have a value of 1 sp" you can't point anywhere to say it. You have yet to show a defined value anywhere, and keep looping back to the same "but they're part of the armor so they have value" okay, where ***is it written they share the armor value*** when I can just keep lopping off my Arcane Armored arms and still get new ones, remove the gauntlets from the Armor, grow new ones, and be left with a ton of either mundane gauntlets (not a separate defined mundane item) or a ton of useless scrap
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Except, that is incorrect, DevanAvalon. The Thunder Gauntlets are the same object as the armor that it is a part of, so they have the same value as the armor. Like I stated in this post, being a weapon does not separate them from the armor. If it's part of the armor, it has the same value.
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Except, that is incorrect, DevanAvalon. The Thunder Gauntlets are the same object as the armor that it is a part of, so they have the same value as the armor. Like I stated in this post, being a weapon does not separate them from the armor. If it's part of the armor, it has the same value.
You know I like you, Sundering, but would you mind looking at the rest of my points too? Infinitely generated items, with an express paragraph describing all of the properties that they possess as weapons, which does not include a defined value... It literally doesn't have anything written.
alternatively, show me where it is explicitly stated that they share the value as the armor. We aren't looking for Rules as Intended (which I have stated I agree they should), we are looking for the Rules as Written. Because logically, we have rules where you can purchase spells, and a 2nd level spell is something like 50 gp? or buying the spell on the spell scrolls which have a value of more than 1 sp... and yet Shadow Blade doesn't count as having a value of 1 sp or greater despite logic dictating they should because we have rules in place to dictate their value.
It's the same thing here: Logic doesn't matter, what's written does.
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DevanAvalon, we do typically agree and get along, and this is just a minor disagreement on a combination that we both agree on the RAI of.
It doesn't explicitly that the Thunder Gauntlets have the same value as the armor, because it doesn't have to:
Arcane Armor
The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action.
Armor Model
You can customize your Arcane Armor. When you do so, choose one of the following armor models: Guardian or Infiltrator. The model you choose gives you special benefits while you wear it.
Each model includes a special weapon.
Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit.
Based on this, your armor grows the special weapons, which are included as parts of the armor, and they count as weapons. That means that the weapons are a part of the armor, and have the same value. If they're part of the same object and count as weapons, they have the same price as the total object, and then qualify for being a "weapon worth 1sp or more" for Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade. This isn't logic based or from how I think the rule was intended, it's strictly based on how the rules are written.
The spell scroll shadow blade thing is a completely different matter, as a spell scroll is consumed when the spell is cast, which makes the scroll be the object with a value, not the weapon. Thunder Gauntlets aren't summoned, they're explicitly part of the armor that created them, granting them the same value.
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except it is very clear they are not in RAW. they do not have a defined value. This is the only passage in Armorer that tells you the properties of the Thunder Gauntlets.
"Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit. A creature hit by the gauntlet has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn, as the armor magically emits a distracting pulse when the creature attacks someone else."
I do not see any of the listed properties including a defined gold value. Literally, this is all the rules say they have. These are the only properties they have. This is all there is on the Thunder Gauntlets.
You can't claim it is clear in RAW when what you're arguing isn't written in the rules.
The section you refer to is a feature of a chosen Armour Model, it does not define an item (it would say so if it did). Arcane Armour is a set of armour that gains a bunch of extra features, one of which may be Thunder Gauntlets. Thunder Gauntlets allows you to make melee weapon attacks using your armour.
At no point in RAW is there a new item named "thunder gauntlets"; the only item involved is the armour you designated as your Arcane Armour, so that is the item you use to determine the value of the weapon you are using. You haven't explained at any point in RAW where the entirely new and separate item apparently comes from, because the Thunder Gauntlets feature certainly doesn't say that.
I just can't understand why you keep insisting you're arguing a position in RAW when you are actually having to invent steps and requirements that don't exist in order to make your case. To summarise as simply as possible:
Arcane Armour gives a set of armour a bunch of extra features.
Armor Model lets you pick additional Arcane Armor features.
Thunder Gauntlets (Guardian Armor Model) lets you attack using part of your armour when not holding anything.
The only item is your armour, which you are attacking with, ergo the value of the "weapon" is the value of your armour.
This is the simplest possible reading of RAW; anything that requires additional steps, such as redefining an armour feature as an item cannot be.
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This argument serves as proof of both why lawyers exist (imagine if billions of dollars or the lives and freedoms of thousands hung on this sort of semantic game), and as proof of why Adventurer's League is ******* horrible for the game. It's obvious at this point that both positions have credible reads of the RAW, and there's no resolving it beyond dispute. Normally there would be no need to, but Adventurer's League demands all players be uniformly miserable so....here we are.
If I might change the subject for a bit because this is super tiresome...might I ask why people are so quick to dismiss the Infiltrator's armor? I've seen it waved off as "just a shitty warlock", but I don't really understand that line of reasoning. Certainly, the loss of the ability to wear the armor under clothing is both baffling and super annoying (that capability should be restored by the DM, wherever possible), but even without that the Infiltrator's lightning launcher allows the armorer to make a ranged weapon attack without having to use either hand. This is 'unprecedented' in itself, and allows a much greater degree of flexibility than is typical for ranged fighters. It's effectively a third arm in a way that avoids the obnoxious DM headaches of "I wanna be a thri-kreen!".
The armor also offers multiple passive, always-on benefits as opposed to the Guardian's total lack of any passive boosts. Anyone who sees the extra five feet of movement and thinks "Oh whatever, nobody cares" has either never played on a tactical map or...well, no. They've just never played on a tactical map. Any amount of additional movement is super cool to have, and the infiltrator armor also offers permanent, non-conditional Stealth advantage. No asking the DM "is this a sight/sound-based Stealth check?" for Whatevers of Elvenkind (which means no more wasting infusions on either of those), which also means never having to roll Stealth with disadvantage ever again. Even if you Infiltrator a set of heavy armor and have to eat permanent disadvantage as well, heck - I know plenty of plate wearers who'd give quite a bit to just turn off the penalty to their stealth.
I get that the Guardian offers a taunt and that immediately catches the attention of all the Warcraft players out there, but man. The infiltrator armor is pretty slick. it used to be much better, but it's still pretty slick.
I agree with the first paragraph, Yurei. I think we've all made up our minds at this point, and all of us seem to agree on the RAI.
I don't see anyone dismissing the Infiltrator Armor, we're more just discussing how the more popular armor model combines with some of the most popular cantrips in the game. I like the Infiltrator armor, and it is very good (especially with Sharpshooter), and it allows you to have a shield and spellcasting focus as well as a ranged weapon. That alone makes the Infiltrator Armor worthwhile, and its even better with the speed increase and stealth benefit.
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An infiltrator can carry a shield, an All-Purpose Tool and its lightning launcher, all without issue. Guardian can't do that. Heh. Frankly, I posit that the cavalier is a better taunty tank than the Guardian armor anyways. I wanna be a Bubblegum Crisis jet-boosting lightning-blasting pillar of awesome when I run an Armorer, not a metal monk.
Think about it. You've just hit tenth level on your Armorer and have finally figured out your Jet Boots, integrating them into your armor. You've gotten your Radiant Weapon modification for your lightning launcher down pat - not only is it a powerful weapon, it's also a hands-free light source and a handy defense. Your Enhanced Defense means you've probably got the best AC on the field, and your [Tooltip Not Found] acts as an autonomous drone linked to your suit, complete with its own dock that allows it to ride around on your back/shoulders. The Helm of Telepathy you've also bolted into your armor works great with your stealth field, allowing you to skim the thoughts of nearby creatures to improve your reconnaissance, as well as detecting hidden threats regardless of their stealth. And when push comes to shooting-lightning? You get to be a flying lightning-blasting power armor anime hero with a Mass Effect omnitool to empower your spells.
How is that not so much freaking cooler than Iron Punchy Boi? Q_Q
An infiltrator can carry a shield, an All-Purpose Tool and its lightning launcher, all without issue. Guardian can't do that. Heh. Frankly, I posit that the cavalier is a better taunty tank than the Guardian armor anyways. I wanna be a Bubblegum Crisis jet-boosting lightning-blasting pillar of awesome when I run an Armorer, not a metal monk.
Think about it. You've just hit tenth level on your Armorer and have finally figured out your Jet Boots, integrating them into your armor. You've gotten your Radiant Weapon modification for your lightning launcher down pat - not only is it a powerful weapon, it's also a hands-free light source and a handy defense. Your Enhanced Defense means you've probably got the best AC on the field, and your Homunculus Servant acts as an autonomous drone linked to your suit, complete with its own dock that allows it to ride around on your back/shoulders. The Helm of Telepathy you've also bolted into your armor works great with your stealth field, allowing you to skim the thoughts of nearby creatures to improve your reconnaissance, as well as detecting hidden threats regardless of their stealth. And when push comes to shooting-lightning? You get to be a flying lightning-blasting power armor anime hero with a Mass Effect omnitool to empower your spells.
How is that not so much freaking cooler than Iron Punchy Boi? Q_Q
@Yurei, I agree that the Infiltrator Armor has a lot of great benefits, but I disagree that it is "so much freaking cooler than Iron Punchy Boi". Take Thoradin "Thunderpunch" Thevruk, for instance.
(It's a character I've been developing for one of the next of Dorkforge's 5e Throwdowns.)
Simple, dumbed down backstory:
Thoradin is a mountain dwarf, raised in the dwarven mining stronghold of Mordain's Fist of the Evrost Mountains. Unlike other clans of mountain dwarves, Clan Thevruk focused on artifice and smithing, not on weapon or armor training, selling the weapons they forged with their elven allies, the High Elves of the Varynth Forest, and trading their armors with the Dragonborn of the Veldan Plains, to aid them in their war against the Giants of Avaria. Thoradin was the apprentice of the clan's oldest and most experienced blacksmith, Dlaera "Stronghammer" Thevruk, who was his great aunt. Dolrin trained Thoradin in the art of the smithy for many years, until his skill in crafting exceeded that of his instructor. Thoradin mastered the art of creating armors of all kinds, and decided to leave Mordain's Fist to aid the Dragonborn and Elves in their war against the Giants with his powerful and useful inventions.
While serving in the war against the giants, Thoradin was trained in the art of Bladesinging by his elven comrades, combining his powerful thundering strikes with his heavy, metallic gauntlets with the swift magic of bladesingers. This caused him to become the best warrior of the force against the giants, granting him the nickname "Thunderpunch" due to his reputation of punching so swiftly that the crack of his enemies' ribs made the sound of thunder. Due to his training in Wizardry, he was able to move quickly across the battlefield with his badger familiar, Trufflehunter, and block deadly attacks from his giant enemies with a magical shield.
Thoradin is a level 14 Armorer Artificer/level 6 Bladesinger Wizard that focuses on being a literal, living tank, having arcane propulsion armor and animated shield. Thoradin uses Booming Blade with his Thunder Gauntlets, uses the Bladesinger's Extra Attack to Booming Blade-Thunderpunch and Thunderpunch, then uses a Hasted action to Booming Blade-Thunderpunch, and then uses his bonus action to Thunderpunch from the Dual Wielder feat. His badger helps him in battle, distracting his enemies to aid him in combat, as Thoradin throws his gauntlets into the face of a towering giant.
With builds like this, you literally get to chuck your thunder-fists into the face of people 6 times your height, dash across the battlefield with your speed-increasing boots, and have your badger with metallic claws nip at the feet of a giant in order to give you advantage on your next thunderpunch to the groin of a [monster]hill giant[/spell], after leaping more feet into the air than you are tall and blocking the boulder of a giant using a floating, magical shield. If you want, you can even give your familiar a Spell Storing Item with Thunderwave so you can have a badger launching your enemies across the field.
How is that not at least as cool as (if not cooler than) the Anime Shocky-Girl? ;)
An infiltrator can carry a shield, an All-Purpose Tool and its lightning launcher, all without issue. Guardian can't do that. Heh. Frankly, I posit that the cavalier is a better taunty tank than the Guardian armor anyways. I wanna be a Bubblegum Crisis jet-boosting lightning-blasting pillar of awesome when I run an Armorer, not a metal monk.
Think about it. You've just hit tenth level on your Armorer and have finally figured out your Jet Boots, integrating them into your armor. You've gotten your Radiant Weapon modification for your lightning launcher down pat - not only is it a powerful weapon, it's also a hands-free light source and a handy defense. Your Enhanced Defense means you've probably got the best AC on the field, and your Homunculus Servant acts as an autonomous drone linked to your suit, complete with its own dock that allows it to ride around on your back/shoulders. The Helm of Telepathy you've also bolted into your armor works great with your stealth field, allowing you to skim the thoughts of nearby creatures to improve your reconnaissance, as well as detecting hidden threats regardless of their stealth. And when push comes to shooting-lightning? You get to be a flying lightning-blasting power armor anime hero with a Mass Effect omnitool to empower your spells.
How is that not so much freaking cooler than Iron Punchy Boi? Q_Q
From what I can gather it wasn't so much that people were dissing the Infiltrator armor. They were just so caught up on the OP'ness of the UA Guardian armor that it got ignored.
That out of the way... things like what you describe here are part of what I was considering about Artificer. Effectively an Infinite Ammo medium ranged weapon is a stellar thing to be able to have. And i've had a lot of games where the Cleric or the Fighter in the party would kill just to not have huge negative modifiers (PF and previous editions) or disadvantage (5e) on their stealth rolls. Even with things like Pass Without Trace cast by the druid or the Ranger they are often sweating bullets about whether they are going to give the party away when they are clunking around in that heavy armor. The Cleric in one of my games because her stealth rolls come up unbelievably bad very often usually either just stays behind or stomps right in describing how she's clanking loudly rather than make the stealth roll because inevitably every good roll she gets is ruined by a bad roll to go with it. If either roll is even good at all.
Now this comes along and I can have the Protection of Full Plate potentially and not have to worry about blowing my stealth rolls on constant disadvantage and have the possibility of potentially good rolls actually be good rolls. This is a small but powerful ability.
The 5 feet? it can come in handy. PLus once you get something like Arcane Propulsion Armor you automatically get another 5 feet. People go nuts over things like mobile's 10 feet and consider that half the reason it is a must have. Even on Classes like rogue and monk that inevitably trivialize that 10 feet before they can do so much more either because of low cost bonus action dashes or because they have innate speed boosts that are more than double that even without dashing. So you've just picked up a small version of the same thing for nothing. And on top of that it can be combined with things like the feat or certain racials on top of it if you really want to.
Then with other things they can do. If you don't want to be stuck reading peoples minds you can always take the Helm of Awareness infusion AND it's not going to mess with your armor infusion or your weapon infusion or whatever you pick for your boots. As an Example you can do Boots of Speed and have a pocket haste spell that doesn't take your spell slots or your concentration. That Shield you've got in your hand? Why not make it a Repulsion shield. With Radiant Weapon already in the mix after those 5 infusions you still have 2 more that you can use somewhere just at level 14 and 1 more that your going to pick up at a higher level. Granted this would use up your 5 attunement slots you have at level 14 but if that is a problem for you you can choose to do something like downgrade Radiant Weapon to Enhanced Weapon or the shield down to Enhanced Defense but you'd still be getting a basic +2 magic item effect out of either one.
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This is getting silly, can someone point me to the part of the PHB where it delineates the difference between "armor" and a "suit of armor" I looked and couldn't find it. You are adding rules where there are none, and this entire discussion has devolved into those who believe the rules as written are actually rules as intended. The RAW does not define armor as a "suit" or "not a suit" and because Tasha's removed heavy armor as a requirement then leather armor will work as power armor because that is exactly how the rules are written.
Until someone can show me in a rule book or errata where "Gauntlets" or "Thunder Gauntlets" have a value of sp1 or greater then RULES AS WRITTEN do not allow the use BB or GFB. You can argue all you want about what the rules intend or what can be implied by the rules, but as they are written the spells do not work with Thunder Gauntlets.
By all means in your home game follow the logic and make it work, that is what I am doing. But if I was going to run an AL game, which wants the players to be miserable, then I'd stick to the RAW so I did not set any of my players up for disappointment and argument when they go to their next AL game with a different DM. It is a crappy situation but imagine for a moment that you are at a Con and you're playing in your first AL of the day, you're an Armorer level 3, and you try to use BB with Thunder Gauntlets. The DM knowing the RAW just hand waves it away, no harm no foul. Later in the day you're in another AL game, and this DM knowing the RAW says nope BB doesn't work with your Thunder Gauntlets, what kind of experience is that for the player who just had their character nerfed after they had already played it a different way. This is why the RAW is strict so that the play experience is consistent.
Scenerio: Armorer buys gauntlets, puts gauntlets on, makes gauntlets into Thunder Gauntlets, takes off gauntlets. They are no longer Thunder Gauntlets, thus cannot be sold as Thunder Gauntlets and cannot have a monetary value. The regular gauntlets can, but not as Thunder Gauntlets.
Armorer goes to buy gauntlets, realizes that gauntlets are not a discrete item in any rule book and therefore cannot buy them. Poor Armorer.
What I find really funny is that it's Thunder Gauntlets and cantrips that are causing an argument. It gets worse, check out Helm of Awareness, per RAW this infusion cannot be created because "Helm" is not a mundane item in any rule book and thus cannot be purchased to be infused. RAW are super dumb, which is why DMs are allowed leeway,
There is no difference between a suit of armor and armor in the books. If your suit of armor doesn't include gauntlets, the Arcane Armor produces them. However, if your armor already had gauntlets (like Plate Armor), they become Thunder Gauntlets, and they share the value of the set of armor you are wearing, thus RAW Thunder Gauntlets work with Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade. As pointed out by DevanAvalon, the suit of armor expands to cover your whole body, which causes the Gauntlets to be part of your Arcane Armor. Thus, even for Leather Armor or any other armor set worth at least 1 sp, BB/GFB works with Thunder Gauntlets.
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Actually in the books the phrase "Suit of Armor" is used to describe Heavy Armor in the equipment section of the Player's Handbook, none of the other armor types has that phrase in them. So you could say, by RAW Heavy armor is still the limitation for the Power Armor
Except that there is no mechanical difference between "armor" and a "suit of armor", so they are considered the same thing.
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What is your point here?
Any gauntlets that appear in order to replace a missing limb are still part of the armour, because it's the armour itself that has extended to replace them. It's literally in the rule "Arcane Armor" feature describing how your suit of armour functions.
Thunder Gauntlets is a separate feature (part of Armor Model) which then causes the gauntlets that are part of the armour, if designated as the Guardian model, to also be usable as simple melee weapons. It does not specify they are an item in their own right in any way; you have arcane armour with the thunder gauntlets feature, you do not have separate armour and thunder gauntlets items, if that were the case the rule would say so (that's what Rules As Written means after all).
So are you arguing that thunder gauntlets do or do not have a value at this point? Because it's very clear that they do in RAW, as the only item involved is a suit of armour, any of which is worth more than 1sp.
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except it is very clear they are not in RAW. they do not have a defined value. This is the only passage in Armorer that tells you the properties of the Thunder Gauntlets.
"Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit. A creature hit by the gauntlet has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn, as the armor magically emits a distracting pulse when the creature attacks someone else."
I do not see any of the listed properties including a defined gold value. Literally, this is all the rules say they have. These are the only properties they have. This is all there is on the Thunder Gauntlets.
I see no defined gold value. 100% strictly RAW, they do not have a value. and again, from the Arcane Armor feature: "The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces." Hmm, that means that if your arm gets chopped off, you get a whole new armor replacement... which would include a new Thunder Gauntlet. Which means that you can just infinitely make them. And if you removed the gauntlets at all, they cease being Thunder Gauntlets, so they have no defined value. They do not appear in any of the equipment listings in any of the books as a separate item, indicating no defined value in the books.
let me repeat: Strictly RAW they have no defined value and cannot be used for SCAGtrips.
yes, LOGICALLY AND AT THE TABLE, I agree they should and do work with the SCAGtrips, but if you have any DM (be it AL or otherwise) who needs a written in ink and paper on a WotC glossy page saying "Thunder Gauntlets have a value of 1 sp" you can't point anywhere to say it. You have yet to show a defined value anywhere, and keep looping back to the same "but they're part of the armor so they have value" okay, where ***is it written they share the armor value*** when I can just keep lopping off my Arcane Armored arms and still get new ones, remove the gauntlets from the Armor, grow new ones, and be left with a ton of either mundane gauntlets (not a separate defined mundane item) or a ton of useless scrap
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Except, that is incorrect, DevanAvalon. The Thunder Gauntlets are the same object as the armor that it is a part of, so they have the same value as the armor. Like I stated in this post, being a weapon does not separate them from the armor. If it's part of the armor, it has the same value.
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You know I like you, Sundering, but would you mind looking at the rest of my points too? Infinitely generated items, with an express paragraph describing all of the properties that they possess as weapons, which does not include a defined value... It literally doesn't have anything written.
alternatively, show me where it is explicitly stated that they share the value as the armor. We aren't looking for Rules as Intended (which I have stated I agree they should), we are looking for the Rules as Written. Because logically, we have rules where you can purchase spells, and a 2nd level spell is something like 50 gp? or buying the spell on the spell scrolls which have a value of more than 1 sp... and yet Shadow Blade doesn't count as having a value of 1 sp or greater despite logic dictating they should because we have rules in place to dictate their value.
It's the same thing here: Logic doesn't matter, what's written does.
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DevanAvalon, we do typically agree and get along, and this is just a minor disagreement on a combination that we both agree on the RAI of.
It doesn't explicitly that the Thunder Gauntlets have the same value as the armor, because it doesn't have to:
Based on this, your armor grows the special weapons, which are included as parts of the armor, and they count as weapons. That means that the weapons are a part of the armor, and have the same value. If they're part of the same object and count as weapons, they have the same price as the total object, and then qualify for being a "weapon worth 1sp or more" for Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade. This isn't logic based or from how I think the rule was intended, it's strictly based on how the rules are written.
The spell scroll shadow blade thing is a completely different matter, as a spell scroll is consumed when the spell is cast, which makes the scroll be the object with a value, not the weapon. Thunder Gauntlets aren't summoned, they're explicitly part of the armor that created them, granting them the same value.
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You can't claim it is clear in RAW when what you're arguing isn't written in the rules.
The section you refer to is a feature of a chosen Armour Model, it does not define an item (it would say so if it did). Arcane Armour is a set of armour that gains a bunch of extra features, one of which may be Thunder Gauntlets. Thunder Gauntlets allows you to make melee weapon attacks using your armour.
At no point in RAW is there a new item named "thunder gauntlets"; the only item involved is the armour you designated as your Arcane Armour, so that is the item you use to determine the value of the weapon you are using. You haven't explained at any point in RAW where the entirely new and separate item apparently comes from, because the Thunder Gauntlets feature certainly doesn't say that.
I just can't understand why you keep insisting you're arguing a position in RAW when you are actually having to invent steps and requirements that don't exist in order to make your case. To summarise as simply as possible:
This is the simplest possible reading of RAW; anything that requires additional steps, such as redefining an armour feature as an item cannot be.
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This argument serves as proof of both why lawyers exist (imagine if billions of dollars or the lives and freedoms of thousands hung on this sort of semantic game), and as proof of why Adventurer's League is ******* horrible for the game. It's obvious at this point that both positions have credible reads of the RAW, and there's no resolving it beyond dispute. Normally there would be no need to, but Adventurer's League demands all players be uniformly miserable so....here we are.
If I might change the subject for a bit because this is super tiresome...might I ask why people are so quick to dismiss the Infiltrator's armor? I've seen it waved off as "just a shitty warlock", but I don't really understand that line of reasoning. Certainly, the loss of the ability to wear the armor under clothing is both baffling and super annoying (that capability should be restored by the DM, wherever possible), but even without that the Infiltrator's lightning launcher allows the armorer to make a ranged weapon attack without having to use either hand. This is 'unprecedented' in itself, and allows a much greater degree of flexibility than is typical for ranged fighters. It's effectively a third arm in a way that avoids the obnoxious DM headaches of "I wanna be a thri-kreen!".
The armor also offers multiple passive, always-on benefits as opposed to the Guardian's total lack of any passive boosts. Anyone who sees the extra five feet of movement and thinks "Oh whatever, nobody cares" has either never played on a tactical map or...well, no. They've just never played on a tactical map. Any amount of additional movement is super cool to have, and the infiltrator armor also offers permanent, non-conditional Stealth advantage. No asking the DM "is this a sight/sound-based Stealth check?" for Whatevers of Elvenkind (which means no more wasting infusions on either of those), which also means never having to roll Stealth with disadvantage ever again. Even if you Infiltrator a set of heavy armor and have to eat permanent disadvantage as well, heck - I know plenty of plate wearers who'd give quite a bit to just turn off the penalty to their stealth.
I get that the Guardian offers a taunt and that immediately catches the attention of all the Warcraft players out there, but man. The infiltrator armor is pretty slick. it used to be much better, but it's still pretty slick.
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I agree with the first paragraph, Yurei. I think we've all made up our minds at this point, and all of us seem to agree on the RAI.
I don't see anyone dismissing the Infiltrator Armor, we're more just discussing how the more popular armor model combines with some of the most popular cantrips in the game. I like the Infiltrator armor, and it is very good (especially with Sharpshooter), and it allows you to have a shield and spellcasting focus as well as a ranged weapon. That alone makes the Infiltrator Armor worthwhile, and its even better with the speed increase and stealth benefit.
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An infiltrator can carry a shield, an All-Purpose Tool and its lightning launcher, all without issue. Guardian can't do that. Heh. Frankly, I posit that the cavalier is a better taunty tank than the Guardian armor anyways. I wanna be a Bubblegum Crisis jet-boosting lightning-blasting pillar of awesome when I run an Armorer, not a metal monk.
Think about it. You've just hit tenth level on your Armorer and have finally figured out your Jet Boots, integrating them into your armor. You've gotten your Radiant Weapon modification for your lightning launcher down pat - not only is it a powerful weapon, it's also a hands-free light source and a handy defense. Your Enhanced Defense means you've probably got the best AC on the field, and your [Tooltip Not Found] acts as an autonomous drone linked to your suit, complete with its own dock that allows it to ride around on your back/shoulders. The Helm of Telepathy you've also bolted into your armor works great with your stealth field, allowing you to skim the thoughts of nearby creatures to improve your reconnaissance, as well as detecting hidden threats regardless of their stealth. And when push comes to shooting-lightning? You get to be a flying lightning-blasting power armor anime hero with a Mass Effect omnitool to empower your spells.
How is that not so much freaking cooler than Iron Punchy Boi? Q_Q
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You just described her.
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@Yurei, I agree that the Infiltrator Armor has a lot of great benefits, but I disagree that it is "so much freaking cooler than Iron Punchy Boi". Take Thoradin "Thunderpunch" Thevruk, for instance.
(It's a character I've been developing for one of the next of Dorkforge's 5e Throwdowns.)
Simple, dumbed down backstory:
Thoradin is a mountain dwarf, raised in the dwarven mining stronghold of Mordain's Fist of the Evrost Mountains. Unlike other clans of mountain dwarves, Clan Thevruk focused on artifice and smithing, not on weapon or armor training, selling the weapons they forged with their elven allies, the High Elves of the Varynth Forest, and trading their armors with the Dragonborn of the Veldan Plains, to aid them in their war against the Giants of Avaria. Thoradin was the apprentice of the clan's oldest and most experienced blacksmith, Dlaera "Stronghammer" Thevruk, who was his great aunt. Dolrin trained Thoradin in the art of the smithy for many years, until his skill in crafting exceeded that of his instructor. Thoradin mastered the art of creating armors of all kinds, and decided to leave Mordain's Fist to aid the Dragonborn and Elves in their war against the Giants with his powerful and useful inventions.
While serving in the war against the giants, Thoradin was trained in the art of Bladesinging by his elven comrades, combining his powerful thundering strikes with his heavy, metallic gauntlets with the swift magic of bladesingers. This caused him to become the best warrior of the force against the giants, granting him the nickname "Thunderpunch" due to his reputation of punching so swiftly that the crack of his enemies' ribs made the sound of thunder. Due to his training in Wizardry, he was able to move quickly across the battlefield with his badger familiar, Trufflehunter, and block deadly attacks from his giant enemies with a magical shield.
Thoradin is a level 14 Armorer Artificer/level 6 Bladesinger Wizard that focuses on being a literal, living tank, having arcane propulsion armor and animated shield. Thoradin uses Booming Blade with his Thunder Gauntlets, uses the Bladesinger's Extra Attack to Booming Blade-Thunderpunch and Thunderpunch, then uses a Hasted action to Booming Blade-Thunderpunch, and then uses his bonus action to Thunderpunch from the Dual Wielder feat. His badger helps him in battle, distracting his enemies to aid him in combat, as Thoradin throws his gauntlets into the face of a towering giant.
With builds like this, you literally get to chuck your thunder-fists into the face of people 6 times your height, dash across the battlefield with your speed-increasing boots, and have your badger with metallic claws nip at the feet of a giant in order to give you advantage on your next thunderpunch to the groin of a [monster]hill giant[/spell], after leaping more feet into the air than you are tall and blocking the boulder of a giant using a floating, magical shield. If you want, you can even give your familiar a Spell Storing Item with Thunderwave so you can have a badger launching your enemies across the field.
How is that not at least as cool as (if not cooler than) the Anime Shocky-Girl? ;)
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From what I can gather it wasn't so much that people were dissing the Infiltrator armor. They were just so caught up on the OP'ness of the UA Guardian armor that it got ignored.
That out of the way... things like what you describe here are part of what I was considering about Artificer. Effectively an Infinite Ammo medium ranged weapon is a stellar thing to be able to have. And i've had a lot of games where the Cleric or the Fighter in the party would kill just to not have huge negative modifiers (PF and previous editions) or disadvantage (5e) on their stealth rolls. Even with things like Pass Without Trace cast by the druid or the Ranger they are often sweating bullets about whether they are going to give the party away when they are clunking around in that heavy armor. The Cleric in one of my games because her stealth rolls come up unbelievably bad very often usually either just stays behind or stomps right in describing how she's clanking loudly rather than make the stealth roll because inevitably every good roll she gets is ruined by a bad roll to go with it. If either roll is even good at all.
Now this comes along and I can have the Protection of Full Plate potentially and not have to worry about blowing my stealth rolls on constant disadvantage and have the possibility of potentially good rolls actually be good rolls. This is a small but powerful ability.
The 5 feet? it can come in handy. PLus once you get something like Arcane Propulsion Armor you automatically get another 5 feet. People go nuts over things like mobile's 10 feet and consider that half the reason it is a must have. Even on Classes like rogue and monk that inevitably trivialize that 10 feet before they can do so much more either because of low cost bonus action dashes or because they have innate speed boosts that are more than double that even without dashing. So you've just picked up a small version of the same thing for nothing. And on top of that it can be combined with things like the feat or certain racials on top of it if you really want to.
Then with other things they can do. If you don't want to be stuck reading peoples minds you can always take the Helm of Awareness infusion AND it's not going to mess with your armor infusion or your weapon infusion or whatever you pick for your boots. As an Example you can do Boots of Speed and have a pocket haste spell that doesn't take your spell slots or your concentration. That Shield you've got in your hand? Why not make it a Repulsion shield. With Radiant Weapon already in the mix after those 5 infusions you still have 2 more that you can use somewhere just at level 14 and 1 more that your going to pick up at a higher level. Granted this would use up your 5 attunement slots you have at level 14 but if that is a problem for you you can choose to do something like downgrade Radiant Weapon to Enhanced Weapon or the shield down to Enhanced Defense but you'd still be getting a basic +2 magic item effect out of either one.