Or to put it differently, the Infiltrator model in the UA felt like it makes you great at infiltrating and opened up the whole social infiltration aspect but the released one feels like it just makes you not suck at sneaking. Something you honestly don't even need if someone in your party is casting Silence or better yet Pass without Trace for the other party members anyway.
I like the Infiltrator model as well, but the "armour under clothes" part always seemed a bit odd to me, and really you're not really losing much.
Artificers can already take Disguise Self which is one of the best social stealth options, plus you can don and doff your Arcane Armour as an action, so if you're concerned someone might touch you and reveal the presence of your armour, you can just take it off and hide or carry it.
In practice it really just means you have to be a bit more strategic in how you do the social stealth, which I don't think is a big loss, as it keeps things a bit tense if you might need to burn a turn re-applying your armour if a fight breaks out.
Otherwise I think it's a good option; the lightning launcher is a really good ranged weapon, and at range it matters a lot less that you don't have the temporary hit points or "taunt fists", plus advantage on stealth is a big deal if you might end up filling in for a rogue if your party doesn't have one, or joining one on recon if you do.
My only complaint about the Infiltrator is that for some reason I had it in my head that the lightning launcher fired a line to send the electricity along (like a modern tazer), and had thought we might get a grapnel gun type ability for quickly scaling walls. But that's my own fault 😄
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It's not that weird if you consider mithril armor is a thing to be honest and yeah Disguise Self works but that would also work for the Guardian model so it's not really an Infiltrator thing, really.
Sure, but it's more about what are you trying to do with Infiltrator model armour versus Guardian model; Guardian is the one you might social stealth with if you're there in case a fight breaks out. Infiltrator is the one you use if your intention is to slip away from a party and look for clues or whatever.
Infiltrator is also interesting for its use with non-disadvantage on stealth armours, though that again raises the issue of whether a light armour counts as a "suit of armor" or not (I assume so, since Infiltrator doesn't have a feature tied to gauntlets); but a Dexterity Artificer with stealth proficiency and full advantage on stealth could end up out sneaking a Rogue. Even better if you take a one or two level dip into Rogue for the expertise and optionally Cunning Action, you can end up with a Infiltrator that could get away with sneaking around on their target's back. 😂
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My only complaint about the Infiltrator is that for some reason I had it in my head that the lightning launcher fired a line to send the electricity along (like a modern tazer), and had thought we might get a grapnel gun type ability for quickly scaling walls. But that's my own fault 😄
I am so making that an infusion. How is a grapple gun/wand/gauntlet/whatever not an infusion already?
Also in reference to the infiltrator, I do wish they had been given something to do with their bonus action similar to the guardian's defensive field. I would have loved it if the powered steps feature, instead of giving you an extra 5 feet of movement, gave you a bonus action dash or disengage. I can just see a suit of infiltrator arcane armor humming to life as it suddenly catapults the artificer out of (or into) danger.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bark side up, bark side down, it really, truly does not matter.
I'm curious as to how the "gemlike node" weapon of the infiltrator operates as a weapon. if mounted on your chest, I assume you don't need to use your hands? And seeing as the armor becomes your spellcasting focus, your hands are free for other things?
Like dual-wielding shields?
With level dipping and magic initiating shield of faith and shield spells, my quad shield toting shield dwarf can now keep up with the rest of the party, tippy-toe away when he wants to, tank and zap from a nice safe distance #the sheltered life#
Personally I wish the guardian felt chunkier... It's hard to exactly put into words.. But it's like.. The infiltrator feels very much like a light, agile character.. the battlemaster is a medium pet character... and I wish the guardian had a stronger focus on being heavy and really had some weight behind it.. Some kind shield attachment to it's arms.. maybe a bonus action shove attack.. Tha kinda stuff.
When I'm thinking guardian.. I'm thinking a steam punk version of the marine armor from starcraft.. this massive hulking construction.. I'm just not just not feeling it I guess.
Personally I wish the guardian felt chunkier... It's hard to exactly put into words.. But it's like.. The infiltrator feels very much like a light, agile character.. the battlemaster is a medium pet character... and I wish the guardian had a stronger focus on being heavy and really had some weight behind it.. Some kind shield attachment to it's arms.. maybe a bonus action shove attack.. Tha kinda stuff.
When I'm thinking guardian.. I'm thinking a steam punk version of the marine armor from starcraft.. this massive hulking construction.. I'm just not just not feeling it I guess.
It sounds like your problem with Artificers is on some level the problem that I have with them. For the most part they are too much magic, not enough gadgetry and steam punk or crazy fantasy machinery like they were in some earlier versions. They poof too much into existence and alter it with a touch rather than crafting and machining on it and getting that tinkerer/inventor vibe going. It's all just kind of too much magical handwaving and sleek woosh "Because Magic!" hand waving going on with them in the final release.
Personally I wish the guardian felt chunkier... It's hard to exactly put into words.. But it's like.. The infiltrator feels very much like a light, agile character.. the battlemaster is a medium pet character... and I wish the guardian had a stronger focus on being heavy and really had some weight behind it.. Some kind shield attachment to it's arms.. maybe a bonus action shove attack.. Tha kinda stuff.
When I'm thinking guardian.. I'm thinking a steam punk version of the marine armor from starcraft.. this massive hulking construction.. I'm just not just not feeling it I guess.
It sounds like your problem with Artificers is on some level the problem that I have with them. For the most part they are too much magic, not enough gadgetry and steam punk or crazy fantasy machinery like they were in some earlier versions. They poof too much into existence and alter it with a touch rather than crafting and machining on it and getting that tinkerer/inventor vibe going. It's all just kind of too much magical handwaving and sleek woosh "Because Magic!" hand waving going on with them in the final release.
I actually dunno if I'd reached that conclusino myself... But I find myself agreeing with you. I guess the flavor text of the artificer does imply that you should explain a lot of the spells via gadgets ect... which is a good base for other reflavoring stuff... But I actually think it's kinda lame how it's just a spell list... doesn't even have any unique spells as far as I'm aware...
I think It would've been cooler with a list of upgrades and ability which become available through levels (sort of like envocations for the warlock) and which would cost money/time to gather the materials for... Of course they would be more potent.. some may even require consumable components .
ALso.. things like changing armor modes on a long rest... or ressing your pet. I can understand why they're there.. It makes the class far more convenient to play.. But it also takes away from the "substance" of the class as being an inventor and buider.. since nothing takes any time.. as you say.. things just "poof"... It's too much of a caster in terms of flavor where as it should be closer to a rogue with more options.
So, without wanting to resurrect the whole Thunder Gauntlet discussion, is the whole argument perhaps a case of confusion as to what RAW actually means? Because like many people have pointed out, the Rules As Written are quite clear about the subject even though it doesn't really make any sense.
Anyway, I agree with those who say that the Guardian armour feels kind of 'meh'. In certain ways, the Infilitrator is actually better in open battle than the Guardian, which feels kind of weird.
So, without wanting to resurrect the whole Thunder Gauntlet discussion, is the whole argument perhaps a case of confusion as to what RAW actually means? Because like many people have pointed out, the Rules As Written are quite clear about the subject even though it doesn't really make any sense.
If you had actually read the arguments then you would've seen that no, there was RAW disagreement as well. It's far from clear.
I did read them and it seems more that the confusion is about what RAW actually means than there being conflicted texts in the book. But yes, it is quite clear. There is no item called "Thunder Gauntlets" that in the book has a prescribed value. None of the lists of items that can be purchased has that particular item with a value assigned to it, yes? Therefor, the Rules are not Written to include that item in the Rules As Written that has a value.
So, without wanting to resurrect the whole Thunder Gauntlet discussion, is the whole argument perhaps a case of confusion as to what RAW actually means? Because like many people have pointed out, the Rules As Written are quite clear about the subject even though it doesn't really make any sense.
Anyway, I agree with those who say that the Guardian armour feels kind of 'meh'. In certain ways, the Infilitrator is actually better in open battle than the Guardian, which feels kind of weird.
I don't think that's really fair; they're both good.
Infiltrator is a pretty solid ranged fighter without using spells, and can double as a scout. You can pair it with heavier armour to counter disadvantage on stealth, or lighter armours to get full advantage, which is pretty neat. 15th level bonus makes the ranged attacks even nastier.
Guardian is more of a pure tank; the big feature of the thunder gauntlets isn't the damage (or the ability to stack them with cantrips regardless of whether you think they should) it's the ability to impose disadvantage to force enemies to target you rather than someone else. This is very much geared towards the best possible armour you can apply it to, slathered in armour infusions, since you're going to have attacks coming your way. Defensive Field only has two uses early on, and it's not a huge amount of temporary HP, but it's still a good bonus for when you're likely to take damage. It scales up quite nicely though, as six uses of up to 20 HP a pop isn't bad at all. 15th level bonus turns you into Scorpion from Mortal Kombat. I also consider the ability to use INT for your attacks to be more of a feature of this armour model; primary Infiltrators will probably lean towards DEX/INT being their top stats (so the boost from using INT won't be that high, if any), while primary Guardians can go CON/INT instead and still hit hard.
I go on about this in threads in the Monk sub-forum, but the ability to change combat role on the fly for Monks is something that's very underrated; of course an Armourer isn't doing that, but being able to potentially change your load-out completely to better fit your party and its evolving fighting style is pretty sweet. If your party has a limited front-line then Guardian may be a better fit than more ranged, but you can still potentially swap to Infiltrator when you know you're going to have to sneak in someplace and either don't have a Rogue, or want to go in as their backup.
My only issue with the Guardian armour model is I kind of feel like Defensive Field should be a reaction; that would certainly help with the limited uses at lower levels, though the extra hit points do persist so it's not a huge deal.
So, without wanting to resurrect the whole Thunder Gauntlet discussion, is the whole argument perhaps a case of confusion as to what RAW actually means? Because like many people have pointed out, the Rules As Written are quite clear about the subject even though it doesn't really make any sense.
If you had actually read the arguments then you would've seen that no, there was RAW disagreement as well. It's far from clear.
There's no disagreement in RAW; nowhere in RAW does it state that the gauntlets become a separate item, so if only one item is involved (the armour) then that's where the value comes from, it really can't get much simpler than that. The only disagreements seem to come from people inventing extra steps/conditions that aren't written anywhere (so not RAW arguments).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
So, without wanting to resurrect the whole Thunder Gauntlet discussion, is the whole argument perhaps a case of confusion as to what RAW actually means? Because like many people have pointed out, the Rules As Written are quite clear about the subject even though it doesn't really make any sense.
Anyway, I agree with those who say that the Guardian armour feels kind of 'meh'. In certain ways, the Infilitrator is actually better in open battle than the Guardian, which feels kind of weird.
I don't think that's really fair; they're both good.
Infiltrator is a pretty solid ranged fighter without using spells, and can double as a scout. You can pair it with heavier armour to counter disadvantage on stealth, or lighter armours to get full advantage, which is pretty neat. 15th level bonus makes the ranged attacks even nastier.
Guardian is more of a pure tank; the big feature of the thunder gauntlets isn't the damage (or the ability to stack them with cantrips regardless of whether you think they should) it's the ability to impose disadvantage to force enemies to target you rather than someone else. This is very much geared towards the best possible armour you can apply it to, slathered in armour infusions, since you're going to have attacks coming your way. Defensive Field only has two uses early on, and it's not a huge amount of temporary HP, but it's still a good bonus for when you're likely to take damage. It scales up quite nicely though, as six uses of up to 20 HP a pop isn't bad at all. 15th level bonus turns you into Scorpion from Mortal Kombat.
I agree that the Guardian isn't bad per se, it's just that it doesn't really bring anything worthwhile to the table that the Infilitrator doesn't. If we go by pure AC, they are the same. At higher levels the Guardian is a bit more durable due to more temporary HP but the AC and disadvantage is still the same. And of course, Infilitrators can attack from a distance, lowering the risk of taking damage.
I go on about this in threads in the Monk sub-forum, but the ability to change combat role on the fly for Monks is something that's very underrated; of course an Armourer isn't doing that, but being able to potentially change your load-out completely to better fit your party and its evolving fighting style is pretty sweet. If your party has a limited front-line then Guardian may be a better fit than more ranged, but you can still potentially swap to Infiltrator when you know you're going to have to sneak in someplace and either don't have a Rogue, or want to go in as their backup.
The versatility of the Artificer class, no matter the subclass, is one of it's greatest benefits, totally. Again, the guardian really doesn't bring that much to the table between about levels 3 and 12.
My only issue with the Guardian armour model is I kind of feel like Defensive Field should be a reaction; that would certainly help with the limited uses at lower levels, though the extra hit points do persist so it's not a huge deal.
That's an interesting suggestion and a fair point.
So, without wanting to resurrect the whole Thunder Gauntlet discussion, is the whole argument perhaps a case of confusion as to what RAW actually means? Because like many people have pointed out, the Rules As Written are quite clear about the subject even though it doesn't really make any sense.
If you had actually read the arguments then you would've seen that no, there was RAW disagreement as well. It's far from clear.
There's no disagreement in RAW; nowhere in RAW does it state that the gauntlets become a separate item, so if only one item is involved (the armour) then that's where the value comes from, it really can't get much simpler than that. The only disagreements seem to come from people inventing extra steps/conditions that aren't written anywhere (so not RAW arguments).
This is very true. There are a lot of people bringing up things that aren't RAW as arguments about what is RAW.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I like the Infiltrator model as well, but the "armour under clothes" part always seemed a bit odd to me, and really you're not really losing much.
Artificers can already take Disguise Self which is one of the best social stealth options, plus you can don and doff your Arcane Armour as an action, so if you're concerned someone might touch you and reveal the presence of your armour, you can just take it off and hide or carry it.
In practice it really just means you have to be a bit more strategic in how you do the social stealth, which I don't think is a big loss, as it keeps things a bit tense if you might need to burn a turn re-applying your armour if a fight breaks out.
Otherwise I think it's a good option; the lightning launcher is a really good ranged weapon, and at range it matters a lot less that you don't have the temporary hit points or "taunt fists", plus advantage on stealth is a big deal if you might end up filling in for a rogue if your party doesn't have one, or joining one on recon if you do.
My only complaint about the Infiltrator is that for some reason I had it in my head that the lightning launcher fired a line to send the electricity along (like a modern tazer), and had thought we might get a grapnel gun type ability for quickly scaling walls. But that's my own fault 😄
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Sure, but it's more about what are you trying to do with Infiltrator model armour versus Guardian model; Guardian is the one you might social stealth with if you're there in case a fight breaks out. Infiltrator is the one you use if your intention is to slip away from a party and look for clues or whatever.
Infiltrator is also interesting for its use with non-disadvantage on stealth armours, though that again raises the issue of whether a light armour counts as a "suit of armor" or not (I assume so, since Infiltrator doesn't have a feature tied to gauntlets); but a Dexterity Artificer with stealth proficiency and full advantage on stealth could end up out sneaking a Rogue. Even better if you take a one or two level dip into Rogue for the expertise and optionally Cunning Action, you can end up with a Infiltrator that could get away with sneaking around on their target's back. 😂
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I am so making that an infusion. How is a grapple gun/wand/gauntlet/whatever not an infusion already?
Also in reference to the infiltrator, I do wish they had been given something to do with their bonus action similar to the guardian's defensive field. I would have loved it if the powered steps feature, instead of giving you an extra 5 feet of movement, gave you a bonus action dash or disengage. I can just see a suit of infiltrator arcane armor humming to life as it suddenly catapults the artificer out of (or into) danger.
Bark side up, bark side down, it really, truly does not matter.
I'm curious as to how the "gemlike node" weapon of the infiltrator operates as a weapon. if mounted on your chest, I assume you don't need to use your hands? And seeing as the armor becomes your spellcasting focus, your hands are free for other things?
Like dual-wielding shields?
With level dipping and magic initiating shield of faith and shield spells, my quad shield toting shield dwarf can now keep up with the rest of the party, tippy-toe away when he wants to, tank and zap from a nice safe distance #the sheltered life#
You can't benefit from a shield's AC bonus more than once, so dual-wielding shields has no benefit.
I actually wrote a feat for that:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/228084-a-pair-of-shields
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Dual-wielding shields is not a viable option, but with enough gold and downtime, wielding one or more defenders is totally doable.
Bark side up, bark side down, it really, truly does not matter.
You can't attune to more than one copy of a particular item at a time, so only one Defender.
True, true, I tend to forget that.
Bark side up, bark side down, it really, truly does not matter.
. . . Back on topic?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Personally I wish the guardian felt chunkier... It's hard to exactly put into words.. But it's like.. The infiltrator feels very much like a light, agile character.. the battlemaster is a medium pet character... and I wish the guardian had a stronger focus on being heavy and really had some weight behind it.. Some kind shield attachment to it's arms.. maybe a bonus action shove attack.. Tha kinda stuff.
When I'm thinking guardian.. I'm thinking a steam punk version of the marine armor from starcraft.. this massive hulking construction.. I'm just not just not feeling it I guess.
It sounds like your problem with Artificers is on some level the problem that I have with them. For the most part they are too much magic, not enough gadgetry and steam punk or crazy fantasy machinery like they were in some earlier versions. They poof too much into existence and alter it with a touch rather than crafting and machining on it and getting that tinkerer/inventor vibe going. It's all just kind of too much magical handwaving and sleek woosh "Because Magic!" hand waving going on with them in the final release.
I actually dunno if I'd reached that conclusino myself... But I find myself agreeing with you. I guess the flavor text of the artificer does imply that you should explain a lot of the spells via gadgets ect... which is a good base for other reflavoring stuff... But I actually think it's kinda lame how it's just a spell list... doesn't even have any unique spells as far as I'm aware...
I think It would've been cooler with a list of upgrades and ability which become available through levels (sort of like envocations for the warlock) and which would cost money/time to gather the materials for... Of course they would be more potent.. some may even require consumable components .
ALso.. things like changing armor modes on a long rest... or ressing your pet. I can understand why they're there.. It makes the class far more convenient to play.. But it also takes away from the "substance" of the class as being an inventor and buider.. since nothing takes any time.. as you say.. things just "poof"... It's too much of a caster in terms of flavor where as it should be closer to a rogue with more options.
So, without wanting to resurrect the whole Thunder Gauntlet discussion, is the whole argument perhaps a case of confusion as to what RAW actually means? Because like many people have pointed out, the Rules As Written are quite clear about the subject even though it doesn't really make any sense.
Anyway, I agree with those who say that the Guardian armour feels kind of 'meh'. In certain ways, the Infilitrator is actually better in open battle than the Guardian, which feels kind of weird.
I did read them and it seems more that the confusion is about what RAW actually means than there being conflicted texts in the book. But yes, it is quite clear. There is no item called "Thunder Gauntlets" that in the book has a prescribed value. None of the lists of items that can be purchased has that particular item with a value assigned to it, yes? Therefor, the Rules are not Written to include that item in the Rules As Written that has a value.
I don't think that's really fair; they're both good.
Infiltrator is a pretty solid ranged fighter without using spells, and can double as a scout. You can pair it with heavier armour to counter disadvantage on stealth, or lighter armours to get full advantage, which is pretty neat. 15th level bonus makes the ranged attacks even nastier.
Guardian is more of a pure tank; the big feature of the thunder gauntlets isn't the damage (or the ability to stack them with cantrips regardless of whether you think they should) it's the ability to impose disadvantage to force enemies to target you rather than someone else. This is very much geared towards the best possible armour you can apply it to, slathered in armour infusions, since you're going to have attacks coming your way. Defensive Field only has two uses early on, and it's not a huge amount of temporary HP, but it's still a good bonus for when you're likely to take damage. It scales up quite nicely though, as six uses of up to 20 HP a pop isn't bad at all. 15th level bonus turns you into Scorpion from Mortal Kombat. I also consider the ability to use INT for your attacks to be more of a feature of this armour model; primary Infiltrators will probably lean towards DEX/INT being their top stats (so the boost from using INT won't be that high, if any), while primary Guardians can go CON/INT instead and still hit hard.
I go on about this in threads in the Monk sub-forum, but the ability to change combat role on the fly for Monks is something that's very underrated; of course an Armourer isn't doing that, but being able to potentially change your load-out completely to better fit your party and its evolving fighting style is pretty sweet. If your party has a limited front-line then Guardian may be a better fit than more ranged, but you can still potentially swap to Infiltrator when you know you're going to have to sneak in someplace and either don't have a Rogue, or want to go in as their backup.
My only issue with the Guardian armour model is I kind of feel like Defensive Field should be a reaction; that would certainly help with the limited uses at lower levels, though the extra hit points do persist so it's not a huge deal.
There's no disagreement in RAW; nowhere in RAW does it state that the gauntlets become a separate item, so if only one item is involved (the armour) then that's where the value comes from, it really can't get much simpler than that. The only disagreements seem to come from people inventing extra steps/conditions that aren't written anywhere (so not RAW arguments).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I agree that the Guardian isn't bad per se, it's just that it doesn't really bring anything worthwhile to the table that the Infilitrator doesn't. If we go by pure AC, they are the same. At higher levels the Guardian is a bit more durable due to more temporary HP but the AC and disadvantage is still the same. And of course, Infilitrators can attack from a distance, lowering the risk of taking damage.
The versatility of the Artificer class, no matter the subclass, is one of it's greatest benefits, totally. Again, the guardian really doesn't bring that much to the table between about levels 3 and 12.
That's an interesting suggestion and a fair point.
This is very true. There are a lot of people bringing up things that aren't RAW as arguments about what is RAW.