Is it just me? I mean, that extra radiant/necrotic damage is beastly, and overall I love the flavor of it. But its features? I'm just not very wowed. I mean, zealous presence sounds really good. Until you realize your party buff only lasts one turn, and it's gone until the next adventuring day.
I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some key piece to this puzzle to make a zealot barbarian who can really shine?
Zealous Presence gives all allies within the radius advantage on ALL attack rolls and saving throws for a turn. At level 10, that can be a huge swing in favour. Also, since you're only going to use it against "the boss", the long rest doesn't hurt so much - much like the Berserker.
Also, there's that whole "you don't die" string of abilities. The Zealot is all about getting stuck deep into combat and not being unstuck from it. Personally I find the Storm Herald more underwhelming, though I'm sure it has its niche.
Hmm I guess that's what bothered me about it. It's a slow boil. The really neat stuff doesn't kick in until later on, and I'm used to playing stuff like battle master fighter, where all your bread and butter is laid out right away.
Storm herald to me seems neat for what it is. Barbarian with a minor AOE. The only thing is there's a lot of book-keeping involved, but it makes it semi flexible.
Considering how the Zealot was in UA (a freaking AoE killing machine) I felt the XgtE version a bit undewhelming as well, but after reading it a bit better it's neat subclass, and much more balanced than the UA version (albeit less "flashy" and seemingly less badass).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I like the concept, though some of the features I'm kind of neutral on as a player.
Now as a DM, I think the class would make a great antagonistic NPC in a fight. Being able to bolster its allies and grant them all advantage, and the lack of a material component for a Resurrection means they can become a potential recurring threat. I can dig it.
Zealot is one of the three best barb subclass, the others being totem and ancestor. It is the most damaging subclass other than berserker but without the huge drawbacks and for free. You said that the good stuff doesnt come around until later and while yes that stuff is seriously amazing, divine fury is such a good free boost of damage and it scales well. Plus the free revive spells on you and the reroll a saving throw which can literally save your life a lot. Add the amazing 10lvl and 14lvl stuff and this subclass is S tier
Divine Fury might not be flashy but it makes Path of the Zealot the subclass of choice for damage optimization. Path of the Berserker does start off doing more damage but it doesn't stay that way.
Consider a 5th Berserker with an ASI in Strength and a 5th level Zealot with PAM wielding a greatsword and glaive respectively, and a 20 and 18 Strength respectively:
Berserker: 3(2d6+5+2) = 42 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Zealot: 2(1d10+4+2) + (1d4+4+2) + (1d6+2) = 37 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
If you factor in hit and crit chance the advantage goes more towards the Berserker. Now let's look at them at level 8. The Berserker takes an ASI in Con n and the Zealot takes an ASI in Strength:
Berserker: 3(2d6+5+2) = 42 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Zealot: 2(1d10+5+2) + (1d4+5+2) + (1d6+4) = 42 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
They are now tied. If you factor in hit and crit chance the advantage goes to the Zealot because they only need one of their three attacks to hit to proc Divine Fury. Also all of this only applies to the rounds after you rage. And this ignores that Frenzy costs a level of exhaustion.
I am not a fan of the flavor of the Zealot but it makes a good basis for comparison to know if a homebrew subclass is doing too much damage.
Why is the berserker increasing CON instead of STR in your comparison? I get what you're getting at, but the comparison isn't entirely fair. Also, do note that the discrepancy will be bigger when you do consider hit chance. If, for example, we consider the berserker increased STR at 8th level, then the berserker's on curve with an expected hit chance of 65%, whereas the zealot is expected to hit around 60% of the time. Before factoring in hit chance, they'd stand at 45 vs 42, for a difference of 3 DPR. Factor in the discrepancy, and it's 29.25 vs 25.2, for little more than 4 points difference.
In a lvl 1-11 campaign, we should always expect to see a berserker outdamaging a zealot if we use the comparison of 20 str vs 18 str+PAM. However, this is only when the berserker is in a frenzy, which they won't always be.
Why is the berserker increasing CON instead of STR in your comparison? I get what you're getting at, but the comparison isn't entirely fair. Also, do note that the discrepancy will be bigger when you do consider hit chance. If, for example, we consider the berserker increased STR at 8th level, then the berserker's on curve with an expected hit chance of 65%, whereas the zealot is expected to hit around 60% of the time. Before factoring in hit chance, they'd stand at 45 vs 42, for a difference of 3 DPR. Factor in the discrepancy, and it's 29.25 vs 25.2, for little more than 4 points difference.
In a lvl 1-11 campaign, we should always expect to see a berserker outdamaging a zealot if we use the comparison of 20 str vs 18 str+PAM. However, this is only when the berserker is in a frenzy, which they won't always be.
In my example both characters start at level 1 with 18 Strength. At level 4 the Berserker takes an ASI to raise their strength to 20 and the Zealot takes PAM. At level 8 the Berserker cannot take another ASI in Strength as an ASI cannot raise an attribute above 20. I mention the fact that hit and crit chance has not been included explicitly in the calculations and how it would impact each comparison. The extra +1 to hit and crit chance account for a larger portion of your expected DPR the higher the target's AC becomes. Giving a more precise answer that does account for hit and crit chance would require graphing out the expected DPR across a range of target AC values. If you are interested I made a Google Sheet for this purpose: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13HQ3VlR880OU8EEmJAWkB3L1WrcXDkMlZFfDH4J-y-0/edit?usp=sharing
Yes, I simplified the math to make it easier to follow. My main point is that at level 8 the extra damage from Divine Fury equals the damage dice difference between a greatsword and a glaive with PAM, 7 + 7 + 7 = 5.5 + 5.5 + 2.5 + 3.5 + 4. The reason factoring in hit chance at level 8 favors the Zealot is that to get the full Divine Fury damage you only need one attack to hit. So if you assume a 60% chance to hit then the extra damage from Divine Fury equals (1d6+4)(1-(0.4)^3) = 7.03 rather than (1d6+4)(0.6) = 4.5. Factoring crit chance in on top of this does favor the Berserker but not by enough to overcome the more reliable Divine Fury damage. And Divine Fury continues to scale pulling the Zealot further and further ahead of the Berserker.
Yes, the Berserker could have taken a feat at level 8 like GWM. Or they could both be variant humans who both took the feat at level 1. I was trying to keep the example strictly as simple as it needed to be. We have both also ignored that PAM gives a fairly reliable way to attack with your reaction because it is difficult to account for how often it will come up. When comparing Zealot to Berserker I find it useful to think of the Zealot as being one ASI behind the Berserker but without the exhaustion penalty.
Why are you starting each with at 18? You may only start at 17 at most using either point buy or standard array. A variant human would have to use their starting half feat to get to 17 STR.
Why are you starting each with at 18? You may only start at 17 at most using either point buy or standard array. A variant human would have to use their starting half feat to get to 17 STR.
I'm not Fangeye, but Tasha's Custom Lineage can start at 18/15/15 by choosing a half-feat and stacking the ability bonus with their racial mod. Skill Expert (Strength, Athletics) is an intrinsically reasonable choice for a TCL Barbarian.
That said, Berserkers deal garbage DPR without truly bizarre assumptions (e.g. they shouldn't be Frenzying more than once per day, as doing so over time literally kills the character), so I have absolutely no interest in proving that Zealot is better.
Easy there, friend, no one is challenging you to prove the zealot is better to begin with. Custom Lineage isn't allowed everywhere, so I wouldn't count on that as being as being a given. I'm not even arguing that the berserker is better. What I am arguing is that it does better DPR while in frenzy if we consider the very realistic 20 STR berserker vs 18 STR+PAM zealot in a realistic setting.
Why are you starting each with at 18? You may only start at 17 at most using either point buy or standard array. A variant human would have to use their starting half feat to get to 17 STR.
I chose 18 because it helped make an illustrative example. It does bake in some assumptions about the character build though. As quindraco points out an 18 is possible using standard array or point buy by using Custom Lineage. My reasoning for the choice though is that if you roll stats you have a 56.76% chance of rolling one stat that is 16 or higher. I assume that the player would put their highest stat in Strength and then choose a race that gets their Strength to at least 18. I go with rolled stats because they average slightly better than Standard Array and average either equal to or slightly better than Point Buy depending on how you spend the points.
I compare Zealot against Berserker to show that the damage from Divine Fury is quite good, even if it isn't engaging to play at a table. I don't mean to denigrate the Berserker subclass, rather I chose Berserker to compare against as they are both the top damage dealing options, with Berserker winning in the early tiers and Zealot winning in the later tiers.
Easy there, friend, no one is challenging you to prove the zealot is better to begin with. Custom Lineage isn't allowed everywhere, so I wouldn't count on that as being as being a given. I'm not even arguing that the berserker is better. What I am arguing is that it does better DPR while in frenzy if we consider the very realistic 20 STR berserker vs 18 STR+PAM zealot in a realistic setting.
Ah, I see. Well, that analysis is fairly straightforward. Since we're discussing S20 I'll assume level 8 barbarians and a target with an AC of 16. The DMG assumes a 3-round combat, so I'll include analysis of round 1, rounds 2 and 3, and then the amortized amount as recommended by the DMG. All attacks are assumed to be Reckless.
Berserker with Greatsword, Strength 20, Frenzy: 25.935 DPR on round 1, 38.9025 on rounds 2 and 3, amortized 34.58
Zealot with Glaive, PAM+Strength 18: 29.7764 DPR on round 1, 38.1701 on rounds 2 and 3, amortized 35.3722
Easy there, friend, no one is challenging you to prove the zealot is better to begin with. Custom Lineage isn't allowed everywhere, so I wouldn't count on that as being as being a given. I'm not even arguing that the berserker is better. What I am arguing is that it does better DPR while in frenzy if we consider the very realistic 20 STR berserker vs 18 STR+PAM zealot in a realistic setting.
Ah, I see. Well, that analysis is fairly straightforward. Since we're discussing S20 I'll assume level 8 barbarians and a target with an AC of 16. The DMG assumes a 3-round combat, so I'll include analysis of round 1, rounds 2 and 3, and then the amortized amount as recommended by the DMG. All attacks are assumed to be Reckless.
Berserker with Greatsword, Strength 20, Frenzy: 25.935 DPR on round 1, 38.9025 on rounds 2 and 3, amortized 34.58
Zealot with Glaive, PAM+Strength 18: 29.7764 DPR on round 1, 38.1701 on rounds 2 and 3, amortized 35.3722
To no-one's great surprise the Zealot wins.
I can see how you got the berserker's numbers, as mine seem to match but how're you getting 38.1 on the zealot's other rounds?
Zealot should be getting 28 for their first round, and 35 for their subsequent rounds. Averaged, or "amortized" as you like to put it, 32.6 DPR. My calculator says the berserker wins.
Let's break it down, with a target AC of 16, the S20 berserker will do that about 65% of the time, or 87.75% of the time when reckless. For our purposes, zealot's hitting 84% of the time.
round 1, berserker does (2d6+7)*2, or 14 per hit, or 28 that round. Factor in reckless and we're at 24.5
The zealot does (1d10+6)*2 +1d6+4, 30.5 damage that round. Factor in reckless, and we're at 25. 6. So far, yes, the zealot pulls ahead with only two hits, but no one's surprised.
Round 2 and onward,
Berserker does 42 damage with (2d6+7)*3, or 36.8
Zealot does 39 damage, (2d10+12=23)+(1d6+4=7.5)+(1d4+6=8.5), or 32.7
Berserker, over three rounds, does 32.7 DPR
Zealot, over 3 rounds, does 30.3 DPR.
I'm sorry to say, but these numbers seem to contradict your statement, much to your surprise I'd assume.
You might have hit the nail on the head, so to speak.
The damage boost is always there, and always useful in combat.
The ability to shrug off death / get resurrected for free is thematic; but will only come up if you actually perish.
And "Zealous Presence" is a super-potent buff for your allies...but will only be used between long periods when you really need it.
All of this serves to make this particular Barbarian a truly intimidating presence on the battlefield...which boils down to a REALLY effective barbarian.
For variety & zest, however, I'd probably recommend a Wild Magic Barbarian...describing how their magical effects manifest...on top of their furious pummeling...is a lot of fun; and may spice up the Barbarian experience.
I don't quite get quindraco's numbers either cgarciao but it looks like you are adding up the expected damage and then multiplying it be the chance to hit.
This doesn't account for crit chance and damage and also doesn't account for the fact that Divine Fury only needs one attack in a turn to proc. So given an 84% chance to hit then Divine Fury has a 97.44% chance to proc on round one and a 99.59% chance to proc on rounds 2 and 3.
Still ignoring crit chance this makes the Zealot's expected damage for round one 26.63 and 33.93 for rounds two and three. So that puts Berserker at 32.7 and Zealot at 31.5 for their expected DPR over three rounds. Maybe factoring in crit chance would make up the difference but I expect that to favor the Berserker further.
*Edit* I put an 18 Str Zealot and a 20 Str Berserker into my sheet and here is what I get for their expected damage including crit chance. Zealot has a round one damage of 28.35 and 36.17 for rounds two and three. Berserker gets a round one damage of 25.94 and 38.9 for rounds two and three. This gives Zealot a three round average of 33.57 and Berserker a three round average of 34.58.
My sheet has the 1d6 of divine fury being effected by crits which may not be accurate. Also I think I have it calculating the chance of criting on the hit that procs Divine Fury in a way that favors the Zealot.
In my example both characters start at level 1 with 18 Strength. At level 4 the Berserker takes an ASI to raise their strength to 20 and the Zealot takes PAM. At level 8 the Berserker cannot take another ASI in Strength as an ASI cannot raise an attribute above 20.
Since you're only comparing damage output and not survivability then building the Berserker and Zealot differently is only making the comparison less fair. It would make more sense to either build both with Polearm Master or both with Great Weapon Master (or Zealot with PAM and Berserker with GWM if we assume one feat each is fair enough).
While both feats have overlap with Berserker features, they're still a net benefit, as you can still use the GWM and PAM bonus attacks when you're not using Frenzied Rage (or even Rage) and the PAM reaction attack doesn't really overlap with the Berserker's Retaliation since PAM triggers on entering reach, while Retaliation triggers on taking damage, so you can usually use PAM early, then Retaliation later for a consistent reaction attack on most turns (especially if you're going Reckless a lot).
GWM is a big benefit to the Berserker during Frenzied Rage, because the combination of Frenzied Rage + Reckless Attack + GWM attacks turns an already decent burst of damage into an even deadlier one, it also enables them to keeps their damage up the rest of the time as well.
Also, I think any comparison between Berserker and Zealot needs to factor in the criticals, as the extra attacks (and higher damage dice) makes it a crucial element of the Berserker's performance. I know it makes it a lot more difficult to calculate, but it matters that PAM's bonus attack is only a d4 when you're considering critical hits as well as Brutal Criticals, since the Berserker is most likely going to be using the largest die size they can to really maximise the extra chance of a full weapon attack critical.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Hello Haravikk, I discussed the reasoning for why I created the example in the fashion I did with others in this thread. It was not meant to be a strict apples to apples comparison but rather to help highlight why Divine Fury is effective even if it isn't engaging to play. If you want to dive deep lets compare the following characters, Bob the Berserker and Bob the Zealot.
They are both Half-Orcs and start with the same point buy stats. BtB uses a mundane Great Axe, BtZ uses a mundane Glaive. At lvl 4 BtB takes GWM and BtZ takes PAM. At lvls 8 and 12 they both take an ASI in Strength. At lvl 16 BtB takes PAM and BtZ takes GWM. At lvl 19 they both take Sentinel.
Here are tables comparing their damage. The first table compares their round 1 damage when they both use their Bonus Action to rage. The values were calculated by taking Bob the Zealot's expected damage and subtracting Bob the Berserker's expected damage. Also previously I had Divine Fury always being applied to a critical hit if one occurred that round, this time around I am assuming that Divine Fury is not affected at all by critical hits.
As you can see Bob the Zealot and Bob the Berserker have a fair bit of overlap with BtZ being favored when the target has higher ACs and BtB being favored when the target AC is lower due to GWM. Looking at the second table in that sheet we see that Bob the Berserker stays on top for even higher target ACs on the following rounds where his stronger Bonus Action attack comes into play.
So if the target's AC is below 18 Bob the Berserker generally wins out. The exact threshold target AC varies depending on the exact character level and how long the combat lasts. But one important note is that at level 16 once they both have GWM then Bob the Zealot comes out ahead against all of the target ACs considered. The fact that Bob the Zealot gets GWM so late is really skewing our results. Also I chose Half-Orc to help emphasize the impact of critical hits with their racial trait Savage Attacks. Lets turn Bob the Zealot into Optimized Bob the Zealot!
Optimized Bob the Zealot also uses point buy but pulls 2 points out of Charisma to keep their starting total in Strength 16 and takes PAM as their racial feat. OBtZ uses a mundane Glaive. At lvl 4 OBtZ takes GWM. At lvls 8 and 12 OBtZ takes an ASI in Strength. At lvl 16 OBtZ takes Sentinel. At lvl 19 OBtZ takes an ASI in Constitution.
Now I chose not to update Bob the Berserker because we are only considering Frenzy damage for the Berserker. PAM is only used by the Berserker when not using Frenzy. So I thought it would be to Bob the Berserker's benefit to remain a Half-Orc and keep Savage Attacks. This combined with the fact that these computations were done with the assumption that Divine Fury does not benefit from critical hits should help emphasize any impact critical hit damage has on their expected DPR. Look at the first table for their round 1 comparison (OBtZ damage - BtB damage):
Well that doesn't look good for Bob the Berserker. At level 3 it isn't until the targets AC is 24 or higher that the extra critical hit damage BtB gets makes up for the extra Divine Fury damage OBtZ gets. At this point critical hits are accounting for half of all their hits. Now looking at the second table the following rounds should favor Bob the Berserker more thanks to his stronger Bonus Action attack:
And indeed that is what we see. Bob the Berserker clearly leads through level 5 and is almost always better in levels 6 and 7. Level 8 goes almost entirely to Optimized Bob the Zealot though, with Bob the Berserker only leading against ACs 11 and lower. And this isn't by enough to make up the extra damage Optimized Bob the Zealot did in round 1, even if the combat lasts until Rage/Frenzy ends. Level 9 sees Bob the Berserker pull ahead a bit thanks to Brutal Critical favoring his Greataxe, and even by enough that if the combat runs long enough Bob the Berserker may end up doing more damage overall. However, at level 9 for targets with AC 15 or higher Optimized Bob the Zealot wins out and stays in the lead for all levels after 9 for all of the AC values considered.
If you want to look at the code used to calculate the expected DPR just open the Google sheet, click on the 'Extensions' drop down menu, and select the 'Apps Script' option.
<Edit>Since the tables are staying on google sheets I color coded the cells. Bob the Berserker is red and (Optimized) Bob the Zealot is blue. The more intense the color the bigger the difference in their damage.</Edit>
Is it just me? I mean, that extra radiant/necrotic damage is beastly, and overall I love the flavor of it. But its features? I'm just not very wowed. I mean, zealous presence sounds really good. Until you realize your party buff only lasts one turn, and it's gone until the next adventuring day.
I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some key piece to this puzzle to make a zealot barbarian who can really shine?
Zealous Presence gives all allies within the radius advantage on ALL attack rolls and saving throws for a turn. At level 10, that can be a huge swing in favour. Also, since you're only going to use it against "the boss", the long rest doesn't hurt so much - much like the Berserker.
Also, there's that whole "you don't die" string of abilities. The Zealot is all about getting stuck deep into combat and not being unstuck from it. Personally I find the Storm Herald more underwhelming, though I'm sure it has its niche.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Hmm I guess that's what bothered me about it. It's a slow boil. The really neat stuff doesn't kick in until later on, and I'm used to playing stuff like battle master fighter, where all your bread and butter is laid out right away.
Storm herald to me seems neat for what it is. Barbarian with a minor AOE. The only thing is there's a lot of book-keeping involved, but it makes it semi flexible.
Considering how the Zealot was in UA (a freaking AoE killing machine) I felt the XgtE version a bit undewhelming as well, but after reading it a bit better it's neat subclass, and much more balanced than the UA version (albeit less "flashy" and seemingly less badass).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I like the concept, though some of the features I'm kind of neutral on as a player.
Now as a DM, I think the class would make a great antagonistic NPC in a fight. Being able to bolster its allies and grant them all advantage, and the lack of a material component for a Resurrection means they can become a potential recurring threat. I can dig it.
Zealot is one of the three best barb subclass, the others being totem and ancestor. It is the most damaging subclass other than berserker but without the huge drawbacks and for free. You said that the good stuff doesnt come around until later and while yes that stuff is seriously amazing, divine fury is such a good free boost of damage and it scales well. Plus the free revive spells on you and the reroll a saving throw which can literally save your life a lot. Add the amazing 10lvl and 14lvl stuff and this subclass is S tier
Divine Fury might not be flashy but it makes Path of the Zealot the subclass of choice for damage optimization. Path of the Berserker does start off doing more damage but it doesn't stay that way.
Consider a 5th Berserker with an ASI in Strength and a 5th level Zealot with PAM wielding a greatsword and glaive respectively, and a 20 and 18 Strength respectively:
Berserker: 3(2d6+5+2) = 42 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Zealot: 2(1d10+4+2) + (1d4+4+2) + (1d6+2) = 37 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
If you factor in hit and crit chance the advantage goes more towards the Berserker. Now let's look at them at level 8. The Berserker takes an ASI in Con n and the Zealot takes an ASI in Strength:
Berserker: 3(2d6+5+2) = 42 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Zealot: 2(1d10+5+2) + (1d4+5+2) + (1d6+4) = 42 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
They are now tied. If you factor in hit and crit chance the advantage goes to the Zealot because they only need one of their three attacks to hit to proc Divine Fury. Also all of this only applies to the rounds after you rage. And this ignores that Frenzy costs a level of exhaustion.
I am not a fan of the flavor of the Zealot but it makes a good basis for comparison to know if a homebrew subclass is doing too much damage.
Why is the berserker increasing CON instead of STR in your comparison? I get what you're getting at, but the comparison isn't entirely fair. Also, do note that the discrepancy will be bigger when you do consider hit chance. If, for example, we consider the berserker increased STR at 8th level, then the berserker's on curve with an expected hit chance of 65%, whereas the zealot is expected to hit around 60% of the time. Before factoring in hit chance, they'd stand at 45 vs 42, for a difference of 3 DPR. Factor in the discrepancy, and it's 29.25 vs 25.2, for little more than 4 points difference.
In a lvl 1-11 campaign, we should always expect to see a berserker outdamaging a zealot if we use the comparison of 20 str vs 18 str+PAM. However, this is only when the berserker is in a frenzy, which they won't always be.
In my example both characters start at level 1 with 18 Strength. At level 4 the Berserker takes an ASI to raise their strength to 20 and the Zealot takes PAM. At level 8 the Berserker cannot take another ASI in Strength as an ASI cannot raise an attribute above 20. I mention the fact that hit and crit chance has not been included explicitly in the calculations and how it would impact each comparison. The extra +1 to hit and crit chance account for a larger portion of your expected DPR the higher the target's AC becomes. Giving a more precise answer that does account for hit and crit chance would require graphing out the expected DPR across a range of target AC values. If you are interested I made a Google Sheet for this purpose: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13HQ3VlR880OU8EEmJAWkB3L1WrcXDkMlZFfDH4J-y-0/edit?usp=sharing
Yes, I simplified the math to make it easier to follow. My main point is that at level 8 the extra damage from Divine Fury equals the damage dice difference between a greatsword and a glaive with PAM, 7 + 7 + 7 = 5.5 + 5.5 + 2.5 + 3.5 + 4. The reason factoring in hit chance at level 8 favors the Zealot is that to get the full Divine Fury damage you only need one attack to hit. So if you assume a 60% chance to hit then the extra damage from Divine Fury equals (1d6+4)(1-(0.4)^3) = 7.03 rather than (1d6+4)(0.6) = 4.5. Factoring crit chance in on top of this does favor the Berserker but not by enough to overcome the more reliable Divine Fury damage. And Divine Fury continues to scale pulling the Zealot further and further ahead of the Berserker.
Yes, the Berserker could have taken a feat at level 8 like GWM. Or they could both be variant humans who both took the feat at level 1. I was trying to keep the example strictly as simple as it needed to be. We have both also ignored that PAM gives a fairly reliable way to attack with your reaction because it is difficult to account for how often it will come up. When comparing Zealot to Berserker I find it useful to think of the Zealot as being one ASI behind the Berserker but without the exhaustion penalty.
Why are you starting each with at 18? You may only start at 17 at most using either point buy or standard array. A variant human would have to use their starting half feat to get to 17 STR.
I'm not Fangeye, but Tasha's Custom Lineage can start at 18/15/15 by choosing a half-feat and stacking the ability bonus with their racial mod. Skill Expert (Strength, Athletics) is an intrinsically reasonable choice for a TCL Barbarian.
That said, Berserkers deal garbage DPR without truly bizarre assumptions (e.g. they shouldn't be Frenzying more than once per day, as doing so over time literally kills the character), so I have absolutely no interest in proving that Zealot is better.
Easy there, friend, no one is challenging you to prove the zealot is better to begin with. Custom Lineage isn't allowed everywhere, so I wouldn't count on that as being as being a given. I'm not even arguing that the berserker is better. What I am arguing is that it does better DPR while in frenzy if we consider the very realistic 20 STR berserker vs 18 STR+PAM zealot in a realistic setting.
I chose 18 because it helped make an illustrative example. It does bake in some assumptions about the character build though. As quindraco points out an 18 is possible using standard array or point buy by using Custom Lineage. My reasoning for the choice though is that if you roll stats you have a 56.76% chance of rolling one stat that is 16 or higher. I assume that the player would put their highest stat in Strength and then choose a race that gets their Strength to at least 18. I go with rolled stats because they average slightly better than Standard Array and average either equal to or slightly better than Point Buy depending on how you spend the points.
I compare Zealot against Berserker to show that the damage from Divine Fury is quite good, even if it isn't engaging to play at a table. I don't mean to denigrate the Berserker subclass, rather I chose Berserker to compare against as they are both the top damage dealing options, with Berserker winning in the early tiers and Zealot winning in the later tiers.
Ah, I see. Well, that analysis is fairly straightforward. Since we're discussing S20 I'll assume level 8 barbarians and a target with an AC of 16. The DMG assumes a 3-round combat, so I'll include analysis of round 1, rounds 2 and 3, and then the amortized amount as recommended by the DMG. All attacks are assumed to be Reckless.
To no-one's great surprise the Zealot wins.
I can see how you got the berserker's numbers, as mine seem to match but how're you getting 38.1 on the zealot's other rounds?
Zealot should be getting 28 for their first round, and 35 for their subsequent rounds. Averaged, or "amortized" as you like to put it, 32.6 DPR. My calculator says the berserker wins.
Let's break it down, with a target AC of 16, the S20 berserker will do that about 65% of the time, or 87.75% of the time when reckless. For our purposes, zealot's hitting 84% of the time.
round 1, berserker does (2d6+7)*2, or 14 per hit, or 28 that round. Factor in reckless and we're at 24.5
The zealot does (1d10+6)*2 +1d6+4, 30.5 damage that round. Factor in reckless, and we're at 25. 6. So far, yes, the zealot pulls ahead with only two hits, but no one's surprised.
Round 2 and onward,
Berserker does 42 damage with (2d6+7)*3, or 36.8
Zealot does 39 damage, (2d10+12=23)+(1d6+4=7.5)+(1d4+6=8.5), or 32.7
Berserker, over three rounds, does 32.7 DPR
Zealot, over 3 rounds, does 30.3 DPR.
I'm sorry to say, but these numbers seem to contradict your statement, much to your surprise I'd assume.
You might have hit the nail on the head, so to speak.
The damage boost is always there, and always useful in combat.
The ability to shrug off death / get resurrected for free is thematic; but will only come up if you actually perish.
And "Zealous Presence" is a super-potent buff for your allies...but will only be used between long periods when you really need it.
All of this serves to make this particular Barbarian a truly intimidating presence on the battlefield...which boils down to a REALLY effective barbarian.
For variety & zest, however, I'd probably recommend a Wild Magic Barbarian...describing how their magical effects manifest...on top of their furious pummeling...is a lot of fun; and may spice up the Barbarian experience.
I don't quite get quindraco's numbers either cgarciao but it looks like you are adding up the expected damage and then multiplying it be the chance to hit.
This doesn't account for crit chance and damage and also doesn't account for the fact that Divine Fury only needs one attack in a turn to proc. So given an 84% chance to hit then Divine Fury has a 97.44% chance to proc on round one and a 99.59% chance to proc on rounds 2 and 3.
Still ignoring crit chance this makes the Zealot's expected damage for round one 26.63 and 33.93 for rounds two and three. So that puts Berserker at 32.7 and Zealot at 31.5 for their expected DPR over three rounds. Maybe factoring in crit chance would make up the difference but I expect that to favor the Berserker further.
*Edit* I put an 18 Str Zealot and a 20 Str Berserker into my sheet and here is what I get for their expected damage including crit chance. Zealot has a round one damage of 28.35 and 36.17 for rounds two and three. Berserker gets a round one damage of 25.94 and 38.9 for rounds two and three. This gives Zealot a three round average of 33.57 and Berserker a three round average of 34.58.
My sheet has the 1d6 of divine fury being effected by crits which may not be accurate. Also I think I have it calculating the chance of criting on the hit that procs Divine Fury in a way that favors the Zealot.
Since you're only comparing damage output and not survivability then building the Berserker and Zealot differently is only making the comparison less fair. It would make more sense to either build both with Polearm Master or both with Great Weapon Master (or Zealot with PAM and Berserker with GWM if we assume one feat each is fair enough).
While both feats have overlap with Berserker features, they're still a net benefit, as you can still use the GWM and PAM bonus attacks when you're not using Frenzied Rage (or even Rage) and the PAM reaction attack doesn't really overlap with the Berserker's Retaliation since PAM triggers on entering reach, while Retaliation triggers on taking damage, so you can usually use PAM early, then Retaliation later for a consistent reaction attack on most turns (especially if you're going Reckless a lot).
GWM is a big benefit to the Berserker during Frenzied Rage, because the combination of Frenzied Rage + Reckless Attack + GWM attacks turns an already decent burst of damage into an even deadlier one, it also enables them to keeps their damage up the rest of the time as well.
Also, I think any comparison between Berserker and Zealot needs to factor in the criticals, as the extra attacks (and higher damage dice) makes it a crucial element of the Berserker's performance. I know it makes it a lot more difficult to calculate, but it matters that PAM's bonus attack is only a d4 when you're considering critical hits as well as Brutal Criticals, since the Berserker is most likely going to be using the largest die size they can to really maximise the extra chance of a full weapon attack critical.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
<Edit> Google Sheet tables don't paste into DnDBeyond well at all XD </Edit>
Hello Haravikk, I discussed the reasoning for why I created the example in the fashion I did with others in this thread. It was not meant to be a strict apples to apples comparison but rather to help highlight why Divine Fury is effective even if it isn't engaging to play. If you want to dive deep lets compare the following characters, Bob the Berserker and Bob the Zealot.
They are both Half-Orcs and start with the same point buy stats.
BtB uses a mundane Great Axe, BtZ uses a mundane Glaive.
At lvl 4 BtB takes GWM and BtZ takes PAM.
At lvls 8 and 12 they both take an ASI in Strength.
At lvl 16 BtB takes PAM and BtZ takes GWM.
At lvl 19 they both take Sentinel.
Here are tables comparing their damage. The first table compares their round 1 damage when they both use their Bonus Action to rage. The values were calculated by taking Bob the Zealot's expected damage and subtracting Bob the Berserker's expected damage. Also previously I had Divine Fury always being applied to a critical hit if one occurred that round, this time around I am assuming that Divine Fury is not affected at all by critical hits.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zjzp1KhNsjykN7-t7y3wAjjh0CkfNJAyFJU856Dm_wI/edit?usp=sharing
As you can see Bob the Zealot and Bob the Berserker have a fair bit of overlap with BtZ being favored when the target has higher ACs and BtB being favored when the target AC is lower due to GWM. Looking at the second table in that sheet we see that Bob the Berserker stays on top for even higher target ACs on the following rounds where his stronger Bonus Action attack comes into play.
So if the target's AC is below 18 Bob the Berserker generally wins out. The exact threshold target AC varies depending on the exact character level and how long the combat lasts. But one important note is that at level 16 once they both have GWM then Bob the Zealot comes out ahead against all of the target ACs considered. The fact that Bob the Zealot gets GWM so late is really skewing our results. Also I chose Half-Orc to help emphasize the impact of critical hits with their racial trait Savage Attacks. Lets turn Bob the Zealot into Optimized Bob the Zealot!
Optimized Bob the Zealot also uses point buy but pulls 2 points out of Charisma to keep their starting total in Strength 16 and takes PAM as their racial feat.
OBtZ uses a mundane Glaive.
At lvl 4 OBtZ takes GWM.
At lvls 8 and 12 OBtZ takes an ASI in Strength.
At lvl 16 OBtZ takes Sentinel.
At lvl 19 OBtZ takes an ASI in Constitution.
Now I chose not to update Bob the Berserker because we are only considering Frenzy damage for the Berserker. PAM is only used by the Berserker when not using Frenzy. So I thought it would be to Bob the Berserker's benefit to remain a Half-Orc and keep Savage Attacks. This combined with the fact that these computations were done with the assumption that Divine Fury does not benefit from critical hits should help emphasize any impact critical hit damage has on their expected DPR. Look at the first table for their round 1 comparison (OBtZ damage - BtB damage):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1okWaEgaU8PplaFQAtqg1EWiZugqftmXtP7-YP16Cu4I/edit?usp=sharing
Well that doesn't look good for Bob the Berserker. At level 3 it isn't until the targets AC is 24 or higher that the extra critical hit damage BtB gets makes up for the extra Divine Fury damage OBtZ gets. At this point critical hits are accounting for half of all their hits. Now looking at the second table the following rounds should favor Bob the Berserker more thanks to his stronger Bonus Action attack:
And indeed that is what we see. Bob the Berserker clearly leads through level 5 and is almost always better in levels 6 and 7. Level 8 goes almost entirely to Optimized Bob the Zealot though, with Bob the Berserker only leading against ACs 11 and lower. And this isn't by enough to make up the extra damage Optimized Bob the Zealot did in round 1, even if the combat lasts until Rage/Frenzy ends. Level 9 sees Bob the Berserker pull ahead a bit thanks to Brutal Critical favoring his Greataxe, and even by enough that if the combat runs long enough Bob the Berserker may end up doing more damage overall. However, at level 9 for targets with AC 15 or higher Optimized Bob the Zealot wins out and stays in the lead for all levels after 9 for all of the AC values considered.
Hopefully this demonstrates how much can change with one or two different build choices. If you want to compare your own builds here is a link to the Google sheet I used to generate those tables:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13HQ3VlR880OU8EEmJAWkB3L1WrcXDkMlZFfDH4J-y-0/edit?usp=sharing
If you want to look at the code used to calculate the expected DPR just open the Google sheet, click on the 'Extensions' drop down menu, and select the 'Apps Script' option.
<Edit>Since the tables are staying on google sheets I color coded the cells. Bob the Berserker is red and (Optimized) Bob the Zealot is blue. The more intense the color the bigger the difference in their damage.</Edit>