Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
You can't use your Frenzy attack on the first round because raging takes up your bonus action.
Yes, Berzerker can make more use of feats, but not so much that there is a giant gap between them and other barbarians using feats (and even then, only while they are frenzied). So the Berserker will be doing some more damage for that single fight per day, at the cost of damage in every other fight.
Also, its very easy to over-state their immunity to charm and fear. That only works during a rage or when they are free to rage. Has the big bad targeted you with hypnotic pattern or dominate person before your first go? Congrats, you are worse off than an elk-totem warrior.
And I think persistent rage has already been explained.
Berserker isn't totally unplayable or anything. But its a trap for new players who don't know the exhaustion mechanic, and effectively not having a 3rd level ability most of the time is just underwhelming.
You can't please everybody, but that doesn't mean WotC hasn't been trying. There's a little something for everyone; even if you don't like everything in their books. You play what appeals to you and captures your interest. And finding something uninteresting is not a clarion call for change. Everyone's tastes are different. Let them be, and don't tell them they're wrong for liking something.
That's putting words in people's mouths. Most of the complaints I've seen haven't been about the archetype being uninteresting, but instead about issues with its balance and playability.
I haven't been putting words in anyone's mouths. People dislike the subclass because it doesn't appeal to them. It doesn't appeal to them because they think, wrongly, that it's unbalanced and unplayable. But this doesn't stop people from complaining anyway. People always want stuff for free. The entire game is built around risk versus reward mechanics, but all too often people forget that.
If you think the cost is too high, that's a personal judgment. You're not comfortable taking the associated risks. That doesn't mean the risk/reward is poorly measured.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
This has been said multiple times, but a rage only lasts one minute.
Persistent Rage
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends EARLY only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.
Persistent rage only prevents the rage from ending early, it doesn't prevent it from ending. Further, there would be no point to having unlimited rages at 20 if persistent rage made it so that you only needed to have 1 rage. You actually get your sixth rage at 17th level, why wouldn't you just get unlimited rages at 15 if you only needed 1 most of the time anyway?
As for not using the bonus action attack during the first round that you rage, you can't because you've already used your bonus action to rage. Frenzy doesn't require anything extra, but it still requires that you rage.
Oh, yeah, you seem to be right ;D sad times, still you're correct but wrong. It would still have a point because even though you might be able to rage forever it might not always be proper, you could actually want to cast a spell, you could be put to sleep or similar (not the berserker but that ability is in general for all barbarians). You could simply be put down to 0 hitpoints, which, if you go into a frenzy is probably bound to happen sooner or later. So unlimited uses wouldn't be wasted.
Still, seems you're right in that it does only last a minute unfortunately. There goes a fun character idea I wasn't going to play anyways ;) But it still doesn't make it bad, just not as overpowered.
There's an easy way around it though, as long as you're a follower of Purphoros and get his hammer. Immune to exhaustion, easy. ;) Another easy way would be to simply become undead, no problems left in the world.
I'd hardly call acquiring a legendary artifact unique to one setting "easy". And not every undead is immune to exhaustion. Vampires aren't, and the template for Player Characters doesn't confer it, either. Earlier editions did, but this isn't those editions.
What part of my comment made you think it was being serious?
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
You can't use your Frenzy attack on the first round because raging takes up your bonus action.
Yes, Berzerker can make more use of feats, but not so much that there is a giant gap between them and other barbarians using feats (and even then, only while they are frenzied). So the Berserker will be doing some more damage for that single fight per day, at the cost of damage in every other fight.
Also, its very easy to over-state their immunity to charm and fear. That only works during a rage or when they are free to rage. Has the big bad targeted you with hypnotic pattern or dominate person before your first go? Congrats, you are worse off than an elk-totem warrior.
And I think persistent rage has already been explained.
Berserker isn't totally unplayable or anything. But its a trap for new players who don't know the exhaustion mechanic, and effectively not having a 3rd level ability most of the time is just underwhelming.
Yeah, most of the issues was brought up already, I just misunderstood the persistent rage.
The charm and frightened immunity though is wrong, from level 7 and onwards you can react during even a surprise round and trigger it, which would let you act and break the effect (well, rather delay it, but it gives you a full 10 rounds of beating that bastard enough times for the concentration to break anyways).
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
You can't use your Frenzy attack on the first round because raging takes up your bonus action.
Yes, Berzerker can make more use of feats, but not so much that there is a giant gap between them and other barbarians using feats (and even then, only while they are frenzied). So the Berserker will be doing some more damage for that single fight per day, at the cost of damage in every other fight.
Also, its very easy to over-state their immunity to charm and fear. That only works during a rage or when they are free to rage. Has the big bad targeted you with hypnotic pattern or dominate person before your first go? Congrats, you are worse off than an elk-totem warrior.
And I think persistent rage has already been explained.
Berserker isn't totally unplayable or anything. But its a trap for new players who don't know the exhaustion mechanic, and effectively not having a 3rd level ability most of the time is just underwhelming.
Yeah, most of the issues was brought up already, I just misunderstood the persistent rage.
The charm and frightened immunity though is wrong, from level 7 and onwards you can react during even a surprise round and trigger it, which would let you act and break the effect (well, rather delay it, but it gives you a full 10 rounds of beating that bastard enough times for the concentration to break anyways).
Feral Instinct doesn’t allow for a berserker to ignore such effects in order to rage. It just lets them go on a surprise round as if it were not a surprise round. If they go after an enemy spellcaster who hits them with suggestion, dominate person, etc. then they usually cannot rage to get out of the effect.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
You can't use your Frenzy attack on the first round because raging takes up your bonus action.
Yes, Berzerker can make more use of feats, but not so much that there is a giant gap between them and other barbarians using feats (and even then, only while they are frenzied). So the Berserker will be doing some more damage for that single fight per day, at the cost of damage in every other fight.
Also, its very easy to over-state their immunity to charm and fear. That only works during a rage or when they are free to rage. Has the big bad targeted you with hypnotic pattern or dominate person before your first go? Congrats, you are worse off than an elk-totem warrior.
And I think persistent rage has already been explained.
Berserker isn't totally unplayable or anything. But its a trap for new players who don't know the exhaustion mechanic, and effectively not having a 3rd level ability most of the time is just underwhelming.
Yeah, most of the issues was brought up already, I just misunderstood the persistent rage.
The charm and frightened immunity though is wrong, from level 7 and onwards you can react during even a surprise round and trigger it, which would let you act and break the effect (well, rather delay it, but it gives you a full 10 rounds of beating that bastard enough times for the concentration to break anyways).
Feral Instinct doesn’t allow for a berserker to ignore such effects in order to rage. It just lets them go on a surprise round as if it were not a surprise round. If they go after an enemy spellcaster who hits them with suggestion, dominate person, etc. then they usually cannot rage to get out of the effect.
It says they can act during a surprise round as long as they rage on their turn. When they rage they can frenzy. Frenzy specifically mentions this effect working even if charmed or frightened.
Feral instinct says: "Additionally, if you are surprised at the beginning of combat and aren’t incapacitated, you can act normally on your first turn, but only if you enter your rage before doing anything else on that turn." In other words, unless you are incapacitated before combat starts (the spell being cast is part of combat/surprise round so it's not made before combat) you can rage, and when you rage you can frenzy.
and from frenzy: "If you are charmed or frightened when you enter your rage, the effect is suspended for the duration of the rage." So, you could indeed be affected by the spell, but it would have to last longer than the 1minute rage/frenzy duration + if it's a concentration spell they would have to maintain concentration.
In my personal opinion, almost every subclass can be useful however some only shine in very rare situations. The berserker is one of the subclasses that are very situational I would like frenzy a lot more if there were multiple ways to get it, such as fall below a certain threshold of heath, and the the current way of just activating it would lead to exhaustion.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
You can't use your Frenzy attack on the first round because raging takes up your bonus action.
Yes, Berzerker can make more use of feats, but not so much that there is a giant gap between them and other barbarians using feats (and even then, only while they are frenzied). So the Berserker will be doing some more damage for that single fight per day, at the cost of damage in every other fight.
Also, its very easy to over-state their immunity to charm and fear. That only works during a rage or when they are free to rage. Has the big bad targeted you with hypnotic pattern or dominate person before your first go? Congrats, you are worse off than an elk-totem warrior.
And I think persistent rage has already been explained.
Berserker isn't totally unplayable or anything. But its a trap for new players who don't know the exhaustion mechanic, and effectively not having a 3rd level ability most of the time is just underwhelming.
Yeah, most of the issues was brought up already, I just misunderstood the persistent rage.
The charm and frightened immunity though is wrong, from level 7 and onwards you can react during even a surprise round and trigger it, which would let you act and break the effect (well, rather delay it, but it gives you a full 10 rounds of beating that bastard enough times for the concentration to break anyways).
Feral Instinct doesn’t allow for a berserker to ignore such effects in order to rage. It just lets them go on a surprise round as if it were not a surprise round. If they go after an enemy spellcaster who hits them with suggestion, dominate person, etc. then they usually cannot rage to get out of the effect.
It says they can act during a surprise round as long as they rage on their turn. When they rage they can frenzy. Frenzy specifically mentions this effect working even if charmed or frightened.
Feral instinct says: "Additionally, if you are surprised at the beginning of combat and aren’t incapacitated, you can act normally on your first turn, but only if you enter your rage before doing anything else on that turn." In other words, unless you are incapacitated before combat starts (the spell being cast is part of combat/surprise round so it's not made before combat) you can rage, and when you rage you can frenzy.
and from frenzy: "If you are charmed or frightened when you enter your rage, the effect is suspended for the duration of the rage." So, you could indeed be affected by the spell, but it would have to last longer than the 1minute rage/frenzy duration + if it's a concentration spell they would have to maintain concentration.
You are reading way too much into "act normally." You "act normally in terms of the round not being a surprise round, not in terms of ignoring any status effect on you like paralyzation, charmed, unconscious, etc. To read it the way you are, if the BBEG goes before you and sends you unconscious, you should still be able to take your turn normally. That is obviously not what it means.
And if you are under an effect like some of the charm spells I have given as an example, then you are not free to activate your rage to begin with. You do not get to take an action directly contrary to the demands of dominate person, or use a bonus action while incapacitated by Hypnotic Pattern.
There is no such thing as a "surprise round". Characters are either surprised or they aren't. In the above case, Feral Instincts simply allows the barbarian to act normally even if they don't notice the threat through their Wisdom (Perception); passive or otherwise.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
If you are surprised in the first round of combat, ie the "surprise round", you can't do an action or anything so if you and the rest of the party all fail to notice the enemy/enemies they get a full round of attacking and doing stuff without the players doing anything... If one player notices the threat, they are not surprised and can act and so on. This is the general rule. Also, since you can't use reactions until after your turn (if surprised) this means everyone still rolls initiative like normal. If your intiative is higher than the enemies and you are surprised you can do nothing, BUT if, let's say you have the polearm master feat, you could use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity when the enemy charges you (since your turn is over, you are allowed to use your reaction). So, for anyone surprised that's all they can do, a reaction AFTER your initiative.
As for the Feral instinct I specifically mentioned incapacitated so saying I meant it would work while unconscious is a bit much, even though I might have mentioned hypnotic pattern (ill get back to that). But you would roll your initiative as normal, with advantage so the odds of acting first are pretty good and even if not there are many spells you could break easily, depending on the situation. Before going into this more you should note that the rules for bonus actions state that:
"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."
Since rage doesn't have any limitations for when you use it (like end of turn, which would have prevented everything I'll say after this) the only current limits of this is now that using a bonus action, ie rage, requires you to be able to use your action which you normally can't while surprised. When the barbarian gets access to Feral instinct however, they CAN act in their turn even when surprised, though they have to use their bonus action to rage before doing anything else. Now, a few spells:
For instance a charm person would only make you friendler towards the caster, so it's not weird to rage if the enemies are attacking your friends at the same time (then again this seems an unlikely time to use this spell in particular)... A dominate person would take 1 action to use and another action to controll fully, which means it would be easy to break by simply frenzying before their next action, unless they used metamagic to cast it as a bonus action, then you're screwed ;)
The Fear spell forces you to use your action to Dash, but Rage is a bonus action, and you can use your bonus action before your regular action, which would let you enter a frenzy, becoming immune to the frightened condition and thus you would ignore the Fear effect that forces you to run.
Hypnotic pattern, not sure if I brought it up before or not but if I did I remembered the spell wrong because I thought it only made you charmed and simply just had you stand there like a nutter, which is basically what you do BUT it specifically says you are incapacitated and the Feral instinct would NOT work because of this! So, if I did use that as an example it was wrong.
Phantasmal killer makes the target frightened but the psychic damage is end of turn so as long as you frenzy, you won't take the damage.
Eyebite has a few options and I'd suggest you use the Sleep one since then the barbarian is unconscious and can't act... The panicked option means it's frightened and once again must use its action to dash away... Bonus action rage/frenzy and that's solved. So, sleep would work and if the target is an elf or similar that can't be put to sleep, then the sickened option is probably best. Or just target someone else.
Modify memory would actually work quite well, since it makes the target incapacitated.. But anyway, as you can see, most of the spells that inflict a charmed or frightened condition that has some control over the target, allow for them to use a bonus action to rage and frenzy and thus ignoring the effects.
In other words it's basically the sleep spell and eyebite that could take out anyone not immune to sleep, or the modify memory and hypnotic pattern that could realistically affect the berserker out of the spells that deal with the charmed and frightened condition. Of course there are other ways to deal with them, like Hold spells, flesh to stone, hideous laughter, stuns or banishment. Neither of those allow you to make the barbarian attack his friends though.
One more thing though.. Since you have two options at the start of combat, if surprised... You either have to simply decide that nah, I don't wanna rage, and then you would only get your reaction after your turn comes up.. In this case, of course anyone controlling you would actually controll you (I mean, if you're at 5 exhaustion already it might not be worth dying when the frenzy ends, over breaking the spell).. OR you decide to rage and frenzy, which you have to do before anything else on your turn, meaning you will be immune to charmed and frightened conditions and simply break all the effects as shown above.
The DM could decide that you need to decide before actions are declared, but by RAW you don't need to and could simply decide after the spell was cast... Though, to be fair, I'd probably not say what spell was cast unless they managed a knowledge arcana check in this instance :p But if the DM wants to let the barbarian that can break free of the spell, know what it is for free, then sure.. Your problem :p
Still, it works, since none of the spells state that you have to move or use your action or similar at the start of your turn. If this was the case it would happen before you could rage and then none of the examples I made would work, but the way it's written now it works. And considering you take a level of exhaustion afterwards, it SHOULD work. It's the biggest reason this subclass isn't the crappiest :p
Just using "surprise round" colloquially to mean "the round in which you are surprised."
Yeah, I mean, since there isn't a full round of surprise anymore, that's the way I say it, though "surprise turn" or just "while surprised" would be more correct... I'd have commented something about not being a smart ass and misinterpretting people on purpose, nitpicking words and so on if it wasn't for the fact that I know a lot of people actually use full "surprise rounds", so it actually makes some sense commenting on it ;D
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
If you are surprised in the first round of combat, ie the "surprise round", you can't do an action or anything so if you and the rest of the party all fail to notice the enemy/enemies they get a full round of attacking and doing stuff without the players doing anything... If one player notices the threat, they are not surprised and can act and so on. This is the general rule. Also, since you can't use reactions until after your turn (if surprised) this means everyone still rolls initiative like normal. If your intiative is higher than the enemies and you are surprised you can do nothing, BUT if, let's say you have the polearm master feat, you could use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity when the enemy charges you (since your turn is over, you are allowed to use your reaction). So, for anyone surprised that's all they can do, a reaction AFTER your initiative.
As for the Feral instinct I specifically mentioned incapacitated so saying I meant it would work while unconscious is a bit much, even though I might have mentioned hypnotic pattern (ill get back to that). But you would roll your initiative as normal, with advantage so the odds of acting first are pretty good and even if not there are many spells you could break easily, depending on the situation. Before going into this more you should note that the rules for bonus actions state that:
"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."
Since rage doesn't have any limitations for when you use it (like end of turn, which would have prevented everything I'll say after this) the only current limits of this is now that using a bonus action, ie rage, requires you to be able to use your action which you normally can't while surprised. When the barbarian gets access to Feral instinct however, they CAN act in their turn even when surprised, though they have to use their bonus action to rage before doing anything else. Now, a few spells:
For instance a charm person would only make you friendler towards the caster, so it's not weird to rage if the enemies are attacking your friends at the same time (then again this seems an unlikely time to use this spell in particular)... A dominate person would take 1 action to use and another action to controll fully, which means it would be easy to break by simply frenzying before their next action, unless they used metamagic to cast it as a bonus action, then you're screwed ;)
The Fear spell forces you to use your action to Dash, but Rage is a bonus action, and you can use your bonus action before your regular action, which would let you enter a frenzy, becoming immune to the frightened condition and thus you would ignore the Fear effect that forces you to run.
Hypnotic pattern, not sure if I brought it up before or not but if I did I remembered the spell wrong because I thought it only made you charmed and simply just had you stand there like a nutter, which is basically what you do BUT it specifically says you are incapacitated and the Feral instinct would NOT work because of this! So, if I did use that as an example it was wrong.
Phantasmal killer makes the target frightened but the psychic damage is end of turn so as long as you frenzy, you won't take the damage.
Eyebite has a few options and I'd suggest you use the Sleep one since then the barbarian is unconscious and can't act... The panicked option means it's frightened and once again must use its action to dash away... Bonus action rage/frenzy and that's solved. So, sleep would work and if the target is an elf or similar that can't be put to sleep, then the sickened option is probably best. Or just target someone else.
Modify memory would actually work quite well, since it makes the target incapacitated.. But anyway, as you can see, most of the spells that inflict a charmed or frightened condition that has some control over the target, allow for them to use a bonus action to rage and frenzy and thus ignoring the effects.
In other words it's basically the sleep spell and eyebite that could take out anyone not immune to sleep, or the modify memory and hypnotic pattern that could realistically affect the berserker out of the spells that deal with the charmed and frightened condition. Of course there are other ways to deal with them, like Hold spells, flesh to stone, hideous laughter, stuns or banishment. Neither of those allow you to make the barbarian attack his friends though.
One more thing though.. Since you have two options at the start of combat, if surprised... You either have to simply decide that nah, I don't wanna rage, and then you would only get your reaction after your turn comes up.. In this case, of course anyone controlling you would actually controll you (I mean, if you're at 5 exhaustion already it might not be worth dying when the frenzy ends, over breaking the spell).. OR you decide to rage and frenzy, which you have to do before anything else on your turn, meaning you will be immune to charmed and frightened conditions and simply break all the effects as shown above.
The DM could decide that you need to decide before actions are declared, but by RAW you don't need to and could simply decide after the spell was cast... Though, to be fair, I'd probably not say what spell was cast unless they managed a knowledge arcana check in this instance :p But if the DM wants to let the barbarian that can break free of the spell, know what it is for free, then sure.. Your problem :p
Still, it works, since none of the spells state that you have to move or use your action or similar at the start of your turn. If this was the case it would happen before you could rage and then none of the examples I made would work, but the way it's written now it works. And considering you take a level of exhaustion afterwards, it SHOULD work. It's the biggest reason this subclass isn't the crappiest :p
Dominate Person doesn't take 2 rounds to prevent raging. It establishes a direct psychic connection that allows general commands akin to the Suggestion spell. An enemy can just demand the Barbarian stand by and do nothing for free on the first turn. There is also a question of whether a berserker under that kind of charm + a command. The Berserker isn't free to do something that directly counters orders, and purposefully breaking free of the charm does that.
So theoretically, one can't even get out of Charm Person if the point of raging is knowing that will allow you to wail on your "friend."
And this isn't just an issue with spells, but with all the various spell like charm effects creatures have. And there are "charm" spells that do not actually employ the charmed condition like Suggestion.
All of this is to say that Mindless Rage is nice, but it is really much better at contending with fear than charm. And if your DM wants to run enemies that use charm, they will occasionally hit you with such effects before combat or before you can rage.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
If you are surprised in the first round of combat, ie the "surprise round", you can't do an action or anything so if you and the rest of the party all fail to notice the enemy/enemies they get a full round of attacking and doing stuff without the players doing anything... If one player notices the threat, they are not surprised and can act and so on. This is the general rule. Also, since you can't use reactions until after your turn (if surprised) this means everyone still rolls initiative like normal. If your intiative is higher than the enemies and you are surprised you can do nothing, BUT if, let's say you have the polearm master feat, you could use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity when the enemy charges you (since your turn is over, you are allowed to use your reaction). So, for anyone surprised that's all they can do, a reaction AFTER your initiative.
As for the Feral instinct I specifically mentioned incapacitated so saying I meant it would work while unconscious is a bit much, even though I might have mentioned hypnotic pattern (ill get back to that). But you would roll your initiative as normal, with advantage so the odds of acting first are pretty good and even if not there are many spells you could break easily, depending on the situation. Before going into this more you should note that the rules for bonus actions state that:
"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."
Since rage doesn't have any limitations for when you use it (like end of turn, which would have prevented everything I'll say after this) the only current limits of this is now that using a bonus action, ie rage, requires you to be able to use your action which you normally can't while surprised. When the barbarian gets access to Feral instinct however, they CAN act in their turn even when surprised, though they have to use their bonus action to rage before doing anything else. Now, a few spells:
For instance a charm person would only make you friendler towards the caster, so it's not weird to rage if the enemies are attacking your friends at the same time (then again this seems an unlikely time to use this spell in particular)... A dominate person would take 1 action to use and another action to controll fully, which means it would be easy to break by simply frenzying before their next action, unless they used metamagic to cast it as a bonus action, then you're screwed ;)
The Fear spell forces you to use your action to Dash, but Rage is a bonus action, and you can use your bonus action before your regular action, which would let you enter a frenzy, becoming immune to the frightened condition and thus you would ignore the Fear effect that forces you to run.
Hypnotic pattern, not sure if I brought it up before or not but if I did I remembered the spell wrong because I thought it only made you charmed and simply just had you stand there like a nutter, which is basically what you do BUT it specifically says you are incapacitated and the Feral instinct would NOT work because of this! So, if I did use that as an example it was wrong.
Phantasmal killer makes the target frightened but the psychic damage is end of turn so as long as you frenzy, you won't take the damage.
Eyebite has a few options and I'd suggest you use the Sleep one since then the barbarian is unconscious and can't act... The panicked option means it's frightened and once again must use its action to dash away... Bonus action rage/frenzy and that's solved. So, sleep would work and if the target is an elf or similar that can't be put to sleep, then the sickened option is probably best. Or just target someone else.
Modify memory would actually work quite well, since it makes the target incapacitated.. But anyway, as you can see, most of the spells that inflict a charmed or frightened condition that has some control over the target, allow for them to use a bonus action to rage and frenzy and thus ignoring the effects.
In other words it's basically the sleep spell and eyebite that could take out anyone not immune to sleep, or the modify memory and hypnotic pattern that could realistically affect the berserker out of the spells that deal with the charmed and frightened condition. Of course there are other ways to deal with them, like Hold spells, flesh to stone, hideous laughter, stuns or banishment. Neither of those allow you to make the barbarian attack his friends though.
One more thing though.. Since you have two options at the start of combat, if surprised... You either have to simply decide that nah, I don't wanna rage, and then you would only get your reaction after your turn comes up.. In this case, of course anyone controlling you would actually controll you (I mean, if you're at 5 exhaustion already it might not be worth dying when the frenzy ends, over breaking the spell).. OR you decide to rage and frenzy, which you have to do before anything else on your turn, meaning you will be immune to charmed and frightened conditions and simply break all the effects as shown above.
The DM could decide that you need to decide before actions are declared, but by RAW you don't need to and could simply decide after the spell was cast... Though, to be fair, I'd probably not say what spell was cast unless they managed a knowledge arcana check in this instance :p But if the DM wants to let the barbarian that can break free of the spell, know what it is for free, then sure.. Your problem :p
Still, it works, since none of the spells state that you have to move or use your action or similar at the start of your turn. If this was the case it would happen before you could rage and then none of the examples I made would work, but the way it's written now it works. And considering you take a level of exhaustion afterwards, it SHOULD work. It's the biggest reason this subclass isn't the crappiest :p
Dominate Person doesn't take 2 rounds to prevent raging. It establishes a direct psychic connection that allows general commands akin to the Suggestion spell. An enemy can just demand the Barbarian stand by and do nothing for free on the first turn. There is also a question of whether a berserker under that kind of charm + a command. The Berserker isn't free to do something that directly counters orders, and purposefully breaking free of the charm does that.
So theoretically, one can't even get out of Charm Person if the point of raging is knowing that will allow you to wail on your "friend."
And this isn't just an issue with spells, but with all the various spell like charm effects creatures have. And there are "charm" spells that do not actually employ the charmed condition like Suggestion.
All of this is to say that Mindless Rage is nice, but it is really much better at contending with fear than charm. And if your DM wants to run enemies that use charm, they will occasionally hit you with such effects before combat or before you can rage.
You can specify a simple and general course of action, such as "Attack that creature," "Run over there," or "Fetch that object." If the creature completes the order and doesn't receive further direction from you, it defends and preserves itself to the best of its ability.
You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn't do anything that you don't allow it to do. During this time you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well.
Dominate person allows you to do this, and a barbarian has rage, if it's supposed to preserve itself to the BEST of its ability, why would that not include raging? Would you argue that another player couldn't use their shield? I'm not saying the barbarian might KNOW how to simply break it, but it should rage because that's what barbarians do. Even if the suggestion in the first case is Attack that creature it's reasonable that a barbarian should do this to the best of its ability which would include a rage.. note that I mean this would be true for any barbarian, not just berserkers, which means a regular barbarian would rage then hit his friends in my opinion, but that's kinda optional since it doesn't specify it. There's nothing saying you can't or shouldn't rage before though so by RAW you can. BUT I do agree there's a way Dominate person would work actually, if the command is "Stay calm" or "Don't rage" it's obviously not ok to trigger a rage, and then by the next turn you could use the full control action of the barbarian.
As for Suggestion;
You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell.
First of all, it does deal with charmed condition and a berserker in a frenzy would indeed be immune to it. Second of all, you couldn't use it to make them attack their friends because it would be harmful and while you could for insance make them run away.. you also need to make it sound reasonable.. And while I'm sure it CAN be done if worded well, this is going to be tricky if this is done at the same time your friends are attacking it's friends, because it's easy to argue that a barbarian running away from battle/its friends being attacked is quite unreasonable tbh. (Pro tip though: "Quickly, we're under attack! Run to the city and get help!" could probably work really well ;) )
As for charm person:
The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance
Now, the barbarian will regard YOU as a friendly acquaintance and it will not attack YOU... But if you have friends attacking his friends he can indeed attack them, while perhaps being confused as to why his long lost friend brought these bastards to attack his friends, he's sure there's a good explanation, they probably kidnapped you or something... But that won't stop him from beating the shit out of them, and while doing this there's nothing preventing him from frenzying I'm honestly not sure if it would just break the spell, or suspend the spell for the 1 minute duration of the frenzy. I'd probably feel it's more fitting with a suspended spell while the frenzy is active, which could also lead to funny interactions afterwards if the caster is still alive.
So, while there can be ways to deal with these situations in some cases, like the caster could come up first and maybe silent spell metamagic a charm person, ask to talk with the barbarian in private because he doesn't know the rest of the party, and then when out of sight the ambush on the rest of the party could trigger, or by being very careful about wording your suggestions... It's also worth considering how horrible exhaustion is before you start trying to rule the odds against the berserker just 'cause you want your spells to work. Just like a wish spell is supposed to be (if asking something not within the regular "allowed" limits) judged in the worst possible way, a wish for immortality might put the character in a demiplane with flesh to stone cast on them and so on... The caster trying to charm the berserker should also be required to actually be this specific so that the berserker really has no way out of it... And since in most cases the situation will be a DM controlled spellcaster vs berserker player instead of a player character using charm on a berserker, is it REALLY within the interest of the game for all spellcasters you meet to be able to use these specific wordings just to get around a character who can normally break free?
Sure, certain individuals might know enough of the party or that specific character to be prepared and use this wording, but most wouldn't. I'd imagine a person who is used to being able to control the minds of most people they meet is sure enough of their abilities that they would rather be overconfident and have a nasty surprise when the barbarian leaps at them despite the spell being cast.
By RAW, they CAN break free of most charm spells, unless worded very well or in specific situations, but the DM doing that just to defeat a player is kinda a shitty move tbh. Let the player have their moment of awesomeness when they use their ability to break free of the spell before it turns into a slaughter of their friends... They'll end up with a level of exhaustion from it anyways, which requires a long rest to get rid of or a 5th level spell (and 100g)... For EACH level of exhaustion. So if this is the 2nd battle in a day and they already used frenzy once, they'd be on the 2nd level of exhaustion already. If there's 1-3 more battles that day it could get dangerous fast. I mean honestly, paladins can both be immune AND give it to the party... With no penalty. Is it really fair that every spellcaster knows exactly how to word their spells to get around the ability of one specific subclass that's slowly killing them while using it?
Like I said, certain cases if the caster knows the berserker already, or heard about their ability to break through charms.. then YES it's ok, but all the time? (even so, most of the spells you can still break free off). And anyways, like I also showed there ARE spells that work, including the hypnotic pattern and modify memory and so on.. So it's not like there aren't ways to get around it.
Dominate person allows you to do this, and a barbarian has rage, if it's supposed to preserve itself to the BEST of its ability, why would that not include raging?
If the caster gives a general order like "run away" or "do nothing," then the barbarian hasn't finished the order at the end of their turn, and is not free to start defending themselves "to the best of their ability."
There is also a meta aspect to a barbarian who can specifically break a charm (and knows that they can) legitimately following an order to attack by first very directly disobeying by breaking free.
As for suggestion, its a weird loophole. The spell itself never says that it uses the charm effect. If it lands on a berserker before they rage, its effect continues while they are raging despite Mindless rage, because it doesn't impose the charmed condition. One could argue that Mindless rage interacts with the suggestion spell to cancel it because its effect ends if the target has immunity to charm. But immunity is a specific feature that Mindless rage replicates, but doesn't actually give. The same way something that describes halving damage from an attack, like uncanny dodge or evasion, doesn't grant momentary resistance, even though the effect is similar.
Also, the target of Suggestion is only limited from obviously self-harming acts, not harmful acts towards others, as per the examples in the spell. So maybe you can't use it to convince a farmer to solo a dragon, but saying to one enemy "your friends are trying to kill me, you should help us subdue them" in a normal encounter wouldn't be suicidal.
And also, the "reasonableness" is a pretty low hurdle to the spell. It just means giving a reason, not necessarily even a good one. So its really DM discretion on how that works out.
And there are still a handful of spell like monster abilities that grant full control, like the Aboleth's Enslave ability.
I'd still love to have Mindless Rage, its a good ability and a solid addition to a class that the party doesn't want being turned on them. I don't think anyone who has an issue with the 3rd level ability really has any issue with Mindless Rage. But if you assume it grants immunity from charm and similar mind control effects, you can be surprised.
Mindless Rage is fine, really good, even. Though I think you'd probably get some very annoyed DMs if you tried to loophole your way into activating it after you've got charmed the way dot113 suggests.
But it's not really the core problem with the Berserker either, nor is it strong enough typically to prop up the subclass on its own and let us ignore how bad the level 3 feature is.
I think most people who do not like Berserker don't hate the entire thing just the level 3 ability which to almost all of us anti-berserkers weighs it down too much we see it as a liability. If there was a second more situational such as, low health when entering rage, which would not produce exhaustion or make the exhaustion only if they fail a con save that starts at 5 and each time it is used increases by 5 and a long rest resets the check back to 5. It is just the forced exhaustion we have problem with since one of the other abilities that give exhaustion bends reality.
I mean the only reason the forced exhaustion is BAD is because you don't let the barbarian use the mindless rage the way it's written, that's my point really. It's REALLY powerful, it's not ALL powerful, it can be in some cases worded against, it can in other cases simply the the easy choice of giving that caster another spell. RAW it's written like this, the berserker can get out of a lot of stuff and they SHOULD be able to do so because this is the whole reason they are forced to take an exhaustion level for it.
If you take away the best part of the subclass, of course the big limiting factor of it is going to make it bad.
There's a paladin subclass that gives this ability for free within 30' to all allies, so saying the berserker is using a loophole is a bit of a stretch for me. Especially when, like I said, there's lots of spells that DO work against the berserker, where they would not be able to rage.
There's a paladin subclass that gives this ability for free within 30' to all allies
The aura doesn't get a 30 foot radius until 18th level, which means that for practical purposes most PCs will never get it.
But part of the issue is that people act like Mindless Rage is some sort of unstoppable power that makes up for the fact that the Berserker's 3rd level ability is so lackluster.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Frenzied Rage is the equivalent of a nova ability. It deals a tremendous amount of damage that cannot be maintained for long and comes with a heavy cost. And yet, nobody seems to ever think of it in these terms. Why is that?
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You can't use your Frenzy attack on the first round because raging takes up your bonus action.
Yes, Berzerker can make more use of feats, but not so much that there is a giant gap between them and other barbarians using feats (and even then, only while they are frenzied). So the Berserker will be doing some more damage for that single fight per day, at the cost of damage in every other fight.
Also, its very easy to over-state their immunity to charm and fear. That only works during a rage or when they are free to rage. Has the big bad targeted you with hypnotic pattern or dominate person before your first go? Congrats, you are worse off than an elk-totem warrior.
And I think persistent rage has already been explained.
Berserker isn't totally unplayable or anything. But its a trap for new players who don't know the exhaustion mechanic, and effectively not having a 3rd level ability most of the time is just underwhelming.
I haven't been putting words in anyone's mouths. People dislike the subclass because it doesn't appeal to them. It doesn't appeal to them because they think, wrongly, that it's unbalanced and unplayable. But this doesn't stop people from complaining anyway. People always want stuff for free. The entire game is built around risk versus reward mechanics, but all too often people forget that.
If you think the cost is too high, that's a personal judgment. You're not comfortable taking the associated risks. That doesn't mean the risk/reward is poorly measured.
What part of my comment made you think it was being serious?
Yeah, most of the issues was brought up already, I just misunderstood the persistent rage.
The charm and frightened immunity though is wrong, from level 7 and onwards you can react during even a surprise round and trigger it, which would let you act and break the effect (well, rather delay it, but it gives you a full 10 rounds of beating that bastard enough times for the concentration to break anyways).
Feral Instinct doesn’t allow for a berserker to ignore such effects in order to rage. It just lets them go on a surprise round as if it were not a surprise round. If they go after an enemy spellcaster who hits them with suggestion, dominate person, etc. then they usually cannot rage to get out of the effect.
It says they can act during a surprise round as long as they rage on their turn. When they rage they can frenzy. Frenzy specifically mentions this effect working even if charmed or frightened.
Feral instinct says: "Additionally, if you are surprised at the beginning of combat and aren’t incapacitated, you can act normally on your first turn, but only if you enter your rage before doing anything else on that turn." In other words, unless you are incapacitated before combat starts (the spell being cast is part of combat/surprise round so it's not made before combat) you can rage, and when you rage you can frenzy.
and from frenzy: "If you are charmed or frightened when you enter your rage, the effect is suspended for the duration of the rage." So, you could indeed be affected by the spell, but it would have to last longer than the 1minute rage/frenzy duration + if it's a concentration spell they would have to maintain concentration.
In my personal opinion, almost every subclass can be useful however some only shine in very rare situations. The berserker is one of the subclasses that are very situational I would like frenzy a lot more if there were multiple ways to get it, such as fall below a certain threshold of heath, and the the current way of just activating it would lead to exhaustion.
You are reading way too much into "act normally." You "act normally in terms of the round not being a surprise round, not in terms of ignoring any status effect on you like paralyzation, charmed, unconscious, etc. To read it the way you are, if the BBEG goes before you and sends you unconscious, you should still be able to take your turn normally. That is obviously not what it means.
And if you are under an effect like some of the charm spells I have given as an example, then you are not free to activate your rage to begin with. You do not get to take an action directly contrary to the demands of dominate person, or use a bonus action while incapacitated by Hypnotic Pattern.
If you are
There is no such thing as a "surprise round". Characters are either surprised or they aren't. In the above case, Feral Instincts simply allows the barbarian to act normally even if they don't notice the threat through their Wisdom (Perception); passive or otherwise.
Just using "surprise round" colloquially to mean "the round in which you are surprised."
If you are surprised in the first round of combat, ie the "surprise round", you can't do an action or anything so if you and the rest of the party all fail to notice the enemy/enemies they get a full round of attacking and doing stuff without the players doing anything... If one player notices the threat, they are not surprised and can act and so on. This is the general rule. Also, since you can't use reactions until after your turn (if surprised) this means everyone still rolls initiative like normal. If your intiative is higher than the enemies and you are surprised you can do nothing, BUT if, let's say you have the polearm master feat, you could use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity when the enemy charges you (since your turn is over, you are allowed to use your reaction). So, for anyone surprised that's all they can do, a reaction AFTER your initiative.
As for the Feral instinct I specifically mentioned incapacitated so saying I meant it would work while unconscious is a bit much, even though I might have mentioned hypnotic pattern (ill get back to that). But you would roll your initiative as normal, with advantage so the odds of acting first are pretty good and even if not there are many spells you could break easily, depending on the situation. Before going into this more you should note that the rules for bonus actions state that:
Since rage doesn't have any limitations for when you use it (like end of turn, which would have prevented everything I'll say after this) the only current limits of this is now that using a bonus action, ie rage, requires you to be able to use your action which you normally can't while surprised. When the barbarian gets access to Feral instinct however, they CAN act in their turn even when surprised, though they have to use their bonus action to rage before doing anything else. Now, a few spells:
For instance a charm person would only make you friendler towards the caster, so it's not weird to rage if the enemies are attacking your friends at the same time (then again this seems an unlikely time to use this spell in particular)... A dominate person would take 1 action to use and another action to controll fully, which means it would be easy to break by simply frenzying before their next action, unless they used metamagic to cast it as a bonus action, then you're screwed ;)
The Fear spell forces you to use your action to Dash, but Rage is a bonus action, and you can use your bonus action before your regular action, which would let you enter a frenzy, becoming immune to the frightened condition and thus you would ignore the Fear effect that forces you to run.
Hypnotic pattern, not sure if I brought it up before or not but if I did I remembered the spell wrong because I thought it only made you charmed and simply just had you stand there like a nutter, which is basically what you do BUT it specifically says you are incapacitated and the Feral instinct would NOT work because of this! So, if I did use that as an example it was wrong.
Phantasmal killer makes the target frightened but the psychic damage is end of turn so as long as you frenzy, you won't take the damage.
Eyebite has a few options and I'd suggest you use the Sleep one since then the barbarian is unconscious and can't act... The panicked option means it's frightened and once again must use its action to dash away... Bonus action rage/frenzy and that's solved. So, sleep would work and if the target is an elf or similar that can't be put to sleep, then the sickened option is probably best. Or just target someone else.
Modify memory would actually work quite well, since it makes the target incapacitated.. But anyway, as you can see, most of the spells that inflict a charmed or frightened condition that has some control over the target, allow for them to use a bonus action to rage and frenzy and thus ignoring the effects.
In other words it's basically the sleep spell and eyebite that could take out anyone not immune to sleep, or the modify memory and hypnotic pattern that could realistically affect the berserker out of the spells that deal with the charmed and frightened condition. Of course there are other ways to deal with them, like Hold spells, flesh to stone, hideous laughter, stuns or banishment. Neither of those allow you to make the barbarian attack his friends though.
One more thing though.. Since you have two options at the start of combat, if surprised... You either have to simply decide that nah, I don't wanna rage, and then you would only get your reaction after your turn comes up.. In this case, of course anyone controlling you would actually controll you (I mean, if you're at 5 exhaustion already it might not be worth dying when the frenzy ends, over breaking the spell).. OR you decide to rage and frenzy, which you have to do before anything else on your turn, meaning you will be immune to charmed and frightened conditions and simply break all the effects as shown above.
The DM could decide that you need to decide before actions are declared, but by RAW you don't need to and could simply decide after the spell was cast... Though, to be fair, I'd probably not say what spell was cast unless they managed a knowledge arcana check in this instance :p But if the DM wants to let the barbarian that can break free of the spell, know what it is for free, then sure.. Your problem :p
Still, it works, since none of the spells state that you have to move or use your action or similar at the start of your turn. If this was the case it would happen before you could rage and then none of the examples I made would work, but the way it's written now it works. And considering you take a level of exhaustion afterwards, it SHOULD work. It's the biggest reason this subclass isn't the crappiest :p
Yeah, I mean, since there isn't a full round of surprise anymore, that's the way I say it, though "surprise turn" or just "while surprised" would be more correct... I'd have commented something about not being a smart ass and misinterpretting people on purpose, nitpicking words and so on if it wasn't for the fact that I know a lot of people actually use full "surprise rounds", so it actually makes some sense commenting on it ;D
Dominate Person doesn't take 2 rounds to prevent raging. It establishes a direct psychic connection that allows general commands akin to the Suggestion spell. An enemy can just demand the Barbarian stand by and do nothing for free on the first turn. There is also a question of whether a berserker under that kind of charm + a command. The Berserker isn't free to do something that directly counters orders, and purposefully breaking free of the charm does that.
So theoretically, one can't even get out of Charm Person if the point of raging is knowing that will allow you to wail on your "friend."
And this isn't just an issue with spells, but with all the various spell like charm effects creatures have. And there are "charm" spells that do not actually employ the charmed condition like Suggestion.
All of this is to say that Mindless Rage is nice, but it is really much better at contending with fear than charm. And if your DM wants to run enemies that use charm, they will occasionally hit you with such effects before combat or before you can rage.
Dominate person allows you to do this, and a barbarian has rage, if it's supposed to preserve itself to the BEST of its ability, why would that not include raging? Would you argue that another player couldn't use their shield? I'm not saying the barbarian might KNOW how to simply break it, but it should rage because that's what barbarians do. Even if the suggestion in the first case is Attack that creature it's reasonable that a barbarian should do this to the best of its ability which would include a rage.. note that I mean this would be true for any barbarian, not just berserkers, which means a regular barbarian would rage then hit his friends in my opinion, but that's kinda optional since it doesn't specify it. There's nothing saying you can't or shouldn't rage before though so by RAW you can. BUT I do agree there's a way Dominate person would work actually, if the command is "Stay calm" or "Don't rage" it's obviously not ok to trigger a rage, and then by the next turn you could use the full control action of the barbarian.
As for Suggestion;
First of all, it does deal with charmed condition and a berserker in a frenzy would indeed be immune to it. Second of all, you couldn't use it to make them attack their friends because it would be harmful and while you could for insance make them run away.. you also need to make it sound reasonable.. And while I'm sure it CAN be done if worded well, this is going to be tricky if this is done at the same time your friends are attacking it's friends, because it's easy to argue that a barbarian running away from battle/its friends being attacked is quite unreasonable tbh. (Pro tip though: "Quickly, we're under attack! Run to the city and get help!" could probably work really well ;) )
As for charm person:
Now, the barbarian will regard YOU as a friendly acquaintance and it will not attack YOU... But if you have friends attacking his friends he can indeed attack them, while perhaps being confused as to why his long lost friend brought these bastards to attack his friends, he's sure there's a good explanation, they probably kidnapped you or something... But that won't stop him from beating the shit out of them, and while doing this there's nothing preventing him from frenzying I'm honestly not sure if it would just break the spell, or suspend the spell for the 1 minute duration of the frenzy. I'd probably feel it's more fitting with a suspended spell while the frenzy is active, which could also lead to funny interactions afterwards if the caster is still alive.
So, while there can be ways to deal with these situations in some cases, like the caster could come up first and maybe silent spell metamagic a charm person, ask to talk with the barbarian in private because he doesn't know the rest of the party, and then when out of sight the ambush on the rest of the party could trigger, or by being very careful about wording your suggestions... It's also worth considering how horrible exhaustion is before you start trying to rule the odds against the berserker just 'cause you want your spells to work. Just like a wish spell is supposed to be (if asking something not within the regular "allowed" limits) judged in the worst possible way, a wish for immortality might put the character in a demiplane with flesh to stone cast on them and so on...
The caster trying to charm the berserker should also be required to actually be this specific so that the berserker really has no way out of it... And since in most cases the situation will be a DM controlled spellcaster vs berserker player instead of a player character using charm on a berserker, is it REALLY within the interest of the game for all spellcasters you meet to be able to use these specific wordings just to get around a character who can normally break free?
Sure, certain individuals might know enough of the party or that specific character to be prepared and use this wording, but most wouldn't. I'd imagine a person who is used to being able to control the minds of most people they meet is sure enough of their abilities that they would rather be overconfident and have a nasty surprise when the barbarian leaps at them despite the spell being cast.
By RAW, they CAN break free of most charm spells, unless worded very well or in specific situations, but the DM doing that just to defeat a player is kinda a shitty move tbh. Let the player have their moment of awesomeness when they use their ability to break free of the spell before it turns into a slaughter of their friends... They'll end up with a level of exhaustion from it anyways, which requires a long rest to get rid of or a 5th level spell (and 100g)... For EACH level of exhaustion. So if this is the 2nd battle in a day and they already used frenzy once, they'd be on the 2nd level of exhaustion already. If there's 1-3 more battles that day it could get dangerous fast. I mean honestly, paladins can both be immune AND give it to the party... With no penalty. Is it really fair that every spellcaster knows exactly how to word their spells to get around the ability of one specific subclass that's slowly killing them while using it?
Like I said, certain cases if the caster knows the berserker already, or heard about their ability to break through charms.. then YES it's ok, but all the time? (even so, most of the spells you can still break free off). And anyways, like I also showed there ARE spells that work, including the hypnotic pattern and modify memory and so on.. So it's not like there aren't ways to get around it.
If the caster gives a general order like "run away" or "do nothing," then the barbarian hasn't finished the order at the end of their turn, and is not free to start defending themselves "to the best of their ability."
There is also a meta aspect to a barbarian who can specifically break a charm (and knows that they can) legitimately following an order to attack by first very directly disobeying by breaking free.
As for suggestion, its a weird loophole. The spell itself never says that it uses the charm effect. If it lands on a berserker before they rage, its effect continues while they are raging despite Mindless rage, because it doesn't impose the charmed condition. One could argue that Mindless rage interacts with the suggestion spell to cancel it because its effect ends if the target has immunity to charm. But immunity is a specific feature that Mindless rage replicates, but doesn't actually give. The same way something that describes halving damage from an attack, like uncanny dodge or evasion, doesn't grant momentary resistance, even though the effect is similar.
Also, the target of Suggestion is only limited from obviously self-harming acts, not harmful acts towards others, as per the examples in the spell. So maybe you can't use it to convince a farmer to solo a dragon, but saying to one enemy "your friends are trying to kill me, you should help us subdue them" in a normal encounter wouldn't be suicidal.
And also, the "reasonableness" is a pretty low hurdle to the spell. It just means giving a reason, not necessarily even a good one. So its really DM discretion on how that works out.
And there are still a handful of spell like monster abilities that grant full control, like the Aboleth's Enslave ability.
I'd still love to have Mindless Rage, its a good ability and a solid addition to a class that the party doesn't want being turned on them. I don't think anyone who has an issue with the 3rd level ability really has any issue with Mindless Rage. But if you assume it grants immunity from charm and similar mind control effects, you can be surprised.
Mindless Rage is fine, really good, even. Though I think you'd probably get some very annoyed DMs if you tried to loophole your way into activating it after you've got charmed the way dot113 suggests.
But it's not really the core problem with the Berserker either, nor is it strong enough typically to prop up the subclass on its own and let us ignore how bad the level 3 feature is.
I think most people who do not like Berserker don't hate the entire thing just the level 3 ability which to almost all of us anti-berserkers weighs it down too much we see it as a liability. If there was a second more situational such as, low health when entering rage, which would not produce exhaustion or make the exhaustion only if they fail a con save that starts at 5 and each time it is used increases by 5 and a long rest resets the check back to 5. It is just the forced exhaustion we have problem with since one of the other abilities that give exhaustion bends reality.
I mean the only reason the forced exhaustion is BAD is because you don't let the barbarian use the mindless rage the way it's written, that's my point really. It's REALLY powerful, it's not ALL powerful, it can be in some cases worded against, it can in other cases simply the the easy choice of giving that caster another spell. RAW it's written like this, the berserker can get out of a lot of stuff and they SHOULD be able to do so because this is the whole reason they are forced to take an exhaustion level for it.
If you take away the best part of the subclass, of course the big limiting factor of it is going to make it bad.
There's a paladin subclass that gives this ability for free within 30' to all allies, so saying the berserker is using a loophole is a bit of a stretch for me. Especially when, like I said, there's lots of spells that DO work against the berserker, where they would not be able to rage.
I find the reasoning pretty weird tbh
The aura doesn't get a 30 foot radius until 18th level, which means that for practical purposes most PCs will never get it.
But part of the issue is that people act like Mindless Rage is some sort of unstoppable power that makes up for the fact that the Berserker's 3rd level ability is so lackluster.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Frenzied Rage is the equivalent of a nova ability. It deals a tremendous amount of damage that cannot be maintained for long and comes with a heavy cost. And yet, nobody seems to ever think of it in these terms. Why is that?