I am currently playing a lore bard and i am very dissapointed with bardic inspiration.
There are so many other ways to get bonuses to attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws that most of the bardic inspirations i have given out 1) never needed to be used 2) were forgotten about or 3) rolled when the player need a very high inspiration so ended up failing anyways. Probably one inspiration die in ten actually comes in clutch. Maybe less. For a core class feature i was expecting more. Its quite meh.
Cutting words is decent for causing an attack to miss now and then and is great fun for the insults but not enough to make up for the dissapointment of standard bardic inspiration.
We have an artificer in the party and Flash of Genius is built much better. Being able to add a number to a roll as a reaction and you know its going to work feels way more useful.
I believe the designers thought so as well and during playtest 2.
Using Bardic Inspiration. You can use your Bardic Inspiration die in the following ways:
Boost a d20 Test. When another creature within 60 feet of you that you can see or hear fails a d20 Test, you can use your Reaction to give the creature a Bardic Inspiration die. The creature rolls that die and adds the number rolled to the d20, potentially turning the failure into a success.
Heal. Immediately after another creature within 60 feet of you that you can see or hear takes damage, you can use your Reaction to roll your Bardic Inspiration die and restore a number of Hit Points to the creature equal to the number rolled.
But clearly people didn't like it in the survey and it promptly got changed back. I am playing a warlock/bard in a campaign and I've given probably 1 inspiration out because people tend to forget to use them and I don't want to go, "oh don't forget you have bardic inspiration". So when building my concept of my character, I'm going with a swords bard so I don't have to give them out.
I really like Mantle of Inspiration. Up to your charisma modifier a number of creatures get a plus 5 to hit points any creature upon receiving the hit points can move its speed with no opportunity attacks. I use it on are party to move in and out of combate while avoiding hits. and you can potentially do this 3,4,5 times in a battle. Shifting the battle field on your turn each time you use it.
I am currently playing a lore bard and i am very dissapointed with bardic inspiration.
There are so many other ways to get bonuses to attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws that most of the bardic inspirations i have given out 1) never needed to be used 2) were forgotten about or 3) rolled when the player need a very high inspiration so ended up failing anyways. Probably one inspiration die in ten actually comes in clutch. Maybe less. For a core class feature i was expecting more. Its quite meh.
Cutting words is decent for causing an attack to miss now and then and is great fun for the insults but not enough to make up for the dissapointment of standard bardic inspiration.
We have an artificer in the party and Flash of Genius is built much better. Being able to add a number to a roll as a reaction and you know its going to work feels way more useful.
Rant over.
Flash of Genius is not better than Bardic Inspiration.
For starters, Bardic Inspiration is usable from 1st level. Flash of Genius is not available until 7th level. A bonus is better than no bonus.
By the time artificers have access to Flash of Genius, which recharges per day, bards bards recharge Bardic Inspiration on a short rest. Short rest recharge is better than long rest recharge.
Bardic Inspiration can be applied to more types of checks. IE Bardic Inspiration at it's base applies to an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw. Flash of Genius only applies to an ability check or saving throw. Enabling a successful attack can be quite useful if it's a high damage or status effect attack.
While it does cost a bonus action to give Bardic Inspiration over a reaction, it doesn't require any action at all for someone with Bardic Inspiration to use it. The range on Flash of Genius is only 30 ft but bestowing Bardic Inspiration is 60 ft and the duration means the recipient doesn't need to be anywhere near the bard at all to activate the bonus.
Bard subclasses add to Bardic Inspiration options while Artificer subclasses to no add to Flash of Genius options.
Placing an appropriate die in front of a player who has Bardic Inspiration on them will help them remember they have that option.
It's true that Flash of Genius allows for knowing the results of the check before using but it's not difficult to avoid adding the bonus to high rolls or avoid it with low rolls. Make the check, and if it looks like it might fail but pass with a small bonus after looking at the roll but before being told the results then use it.
I’m playing a bard for the first time, and I’m using it frequently. Yes, I make the effort to remind players and the DM (for NPCs). So what? I figure it goes along with the support caster role, and I’m leaning into it. I haven’t been keeping stats, but it has resulted in a few misses turning into hits. Nothing do or die yet, but I’ve only played a few sessions.
Flash of Genius is not better than Bardic Inspiration.
For starters, Bardic Inspiration is usable from 1st level. Flash of Genius is not available until 7th level. A bonus is better than no bonus.
By the time artificers have access to Flash of Genius, which recharges per day, bards bards recharge Bardic Inspiration on a short rest. Short rest recharge is better than long rest recharge.
Bardic Inspiration can be applied to more types of checks. IE Bardic Inspiration at it's base applies to an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw. Flash of Genius only applies to an ability check or saving throw. Enabling a successful attack can be quite useful if it's a high damage or status effect attack.
While it does cost a bonus action to give Bardic Inspiration over a reaction, it doesn't require any action at all for someone with Bardic Inspiration to use it. The range on Flash of Genius is only 30 ft but bestowing Bardic Inspiration is 60 ft and the duration means the recipient doesn't need to be anywhere near the bard at all to activate the bonus.
Bard subclasses add to Bardic Inspiration options while Artificer subclasses to no add to Flash of Genius options.
Placing an appropriate die in front of a player who has Bardic Inspiration on them will help them remember they have that option.
It's true that Flash of Genius allows for knowing the results of the check before using but it's not difficult to avoid adding the bonus to high rolls or avoid it with low rolls. Make the check, and if it looks like it might fail but pass with a small bonus after looking at the roll but before being told the results then use it.
While that is all true and as a whole bardic inspiration is a more impactful feature than flash of genius the annoying thing with bardic inspiration is it sometimes doen't get used. This can either happen because the need doesn't come up within 10 minutes (you give it to the low athletics PC before they attemt to climb a wall and they roll a natural 20), the player of the inspired PC forgets they have it or they save it for a better moment (they don't use it when they miss a weapon attack on a dragon in case they need it to save from the breath weapon and the dragon never gets its breath weapon back)
I really like Mantle of Inspiration. Up to your charisma modifier a number of creatures get a plus 5 to hit points any creature upon receiving the hit points can move its speed with no opportunity attacks. I use it on are party to move in and out of combate while avoiding hits. and you can potentially do this 3,4,5 times in a battle. Shifting the battle field on your turn each time you use it.
I agree. I think this is the best subclass ability in the game for level 3 and below. In games I have played this has been more powerful than even Twilight Sanctuary.
What it also works great for is AOE spells. You want to cast Fear or Hypnotic Pattern but your tank and cleric are in the way. Use this and have them move as a Bonus action and then cast your crowd pleaser! Works if your Wizard buddy is next in initiative and wants to use fireball too.
Flash of Genius is not better than Bardic Inspiration.
For starters, Bardic Inspiration is usable from 1st level. Flash of Genius is not available until 7th level. A bonus is better than no bonus.
By the time artificers have access to Flash of Genius, which recharges per day, bards bards recharge Bardic Inspiration on a short rest. Short rest recharge is better than long rest recharge.
Bardic Inspiration can be applied to more types of checks. IE Bardic Inspiration at it's base applies to an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw. Flash of Genius only applies to an ability check or saving throw. Enabling a successful attack can be quite useful if it's a high damage or status effect attack.
While it does cost a bonus action to give Bardic Inspiration over a reaction, it doesn't require any action at all for someone with Bardic Inspiration to use it. The range on Flash of Genius is only 30 ft but bestowing Bardic Inspiration is 60 ft and the duration means the recipient doesn't need to be anywhere near the bard at all to activate the bonus.
Bard subclasses add to Bardic Inspiration options while Artificer subclasses to no add to Flash of Genius options.
Placing an appropriate die in front of a player who has Bardic Inspiration on them will help them remember they have that option.
It's true that Flash of Genius allows for knowing the results of the check before using but it's not difficult to avoid adding the bonus to high rolls or avoid it with low rolls. Make the check, and if it looks like it might fail but pass with a small bonus after looking at the roll but before being told the results then use it.
While that is all true and as a whole bardic inspiration is a more impactful feature than flash of genius the annoying thing with bardic inspiration is it sometimes doen't get used. This can either happen because the need doesn't come up within 10 minutes (you give it to the low athletics PC before they attemt to climb a wall and they roll a natural 20), the player of the inspired PC forgets they have it or they save it for a better moment (they don't use it when they miss a weapon attack on a dragon in case they need it to save from the breath weapon and the dragon never gets its breath weapon back)
Rolling a natural 20 is the exception, not the rule.
My advice is save the Bardic Inspiration for when a battle is expected or a situation with multiple rolling required. In the climbing example a climber's kit affords falling protection and getting a good climber to lead ahead and attach pitons for the poor climber makes it easier. Climbing is possible to make easier through equipment, the help action, and/or group checks.
If a player ignores the reminder and doesn't use the BI die, then stop giving it to that player and give it to another player who does use it. In any event, losing the usefulness of the die is part of the game and isn't really any different than any other finite resource with an all or nothing effect.
The 2024 updates look like they're moving away from that as too given both versions are based on failing the roll, and the second version is a carry with ability that lasts an hour instead of ten minutes.
Rolling a natural 20 is the exception, not the rule.
My advice is save the Bardic Inspiration for when a battle is expected or a situation with multiple rolling required. In the climbing example a climber's kit affords falling protection and getting a good climber to lead ahead and attach pitons for the poor climber makes it easier. Climbing is possible to make easier through equipment, the help action, and/or group checks.
If a player ignores the reminder and doesn't use the BI die, then stop giving it to that player and give it to another player who does use it. In any event, losing the usefulness of the die is part of the game and isn't really any different than any other finite resource with an all or nothing effect.
The 2024 updates look like they're moving away from that as too given both versions are based on failing the roll, and the second version is a carry with ability that lasts an hour instead of ten minutes.
The Natural 20 was an example, as was climbing, less exceptionally:
Say the players are low level and so the inspiration dice is a d6. The PC has to get a 16 make the save / hit with the attack / make the skill check. If they roll 16 or higher or less than 10 there is no point rolling the inspiration dice because it can not impact the result. Usually the AC / DC is unknown but often the player has a good idea what it might be if previously a 17 on an attack roll has hit but a 15 has missed the AC must be 16 or 17. Thinking about climbing a wall the player could ask the DM "how easy does the wall look to climb? is it smooth or are there places I can use as foot and handholds?" If the DM replies "There are plenty of footholds and handholds you think with your athletics training and natural strength it should be fairly striaghtforward to climb but there is a risk of falling if you seriously mess it up", the player is likely to think anything more than a natural 5 is unlikely to need inspiration.
I agree the bard can do things like give out inspiration when the character is likely to make multiple rolls in the next 10 minutes but they might choose to use it differently than the bard would like. The (say level 11) fighter might use it to make one of his attacks hit doing an extra 10 damage only to have dominate person cast on him later in the round which he fails the save by one or two, and in the next round beats up the bard. Conversely the fighter might choose not to use inspiration when asked to make a wis save because he thinks he has scored high enough without only to find the DC was higher than he expected (and again beats up the bard on his next turn). The bard can choose not to give inspiration to the fighter but that doesb't stop him getting beaten up when the fighter has dominate person cast on them.
If it the fact that giving out a bardic inspiration passes control of when it is used to another player which bard players can find frrustraing and it looks as if this will be addressed in 5e2024.
As someone who played a bard for two years, I believe that the OP has a good point if we only look at the basic function of the bardic inspiration. However, I do think that the subclass specific use of BI was extremely powerful for some subclasses. I was an Eloquence Bard and dominated the field using Unsettling Words in combination with my own spells or someone else's when we had another caster on the team. I would argue that playing Eloquence makes for the most satisfying experience using BI and that it is very satisfying forcing failed saves almost always. Some subclasses though, just are awful with it and if that is the case, having the core use of BI being a bit of a snooze just makes playing those lesser subclasses all the more challenging.
As someone who played a bard for two years, I believe that the OP has a good point if we only look at the basic function of the bardic inspiration. However, I do think that the subclass specific use of BI was extremely powerful for some subclasses. I was an Eloquence Bard and dominated the field using Unsettling Words in combination with my own spells or someone else's when we had another caster on the team. I would argue that playing Eloquence makes for the most satisfying experience using BI and that it is very satisfying forcing failed saves almost always. Some subclasses though, just are awful with it and if that is the case, having the core use of BI being a bit of a snooze just makes playing those lesser subclasses all the more challenging.
Eloquence is a great subclass but I think unsettling words is overated.
The problem with unsettling words is you use the inspiration up before the roll is made. Say you are at level 3, with a +3 to charisma trying to cast blindness. Your save DC is 13. If the enemy rolls 12 or less on the save (before the unsettling words) they would have failed anyway so the dice does nothing. If they roll 19 or more again the inspration dice is wasted because they are guaranteed ot make the save, it is only if they roll between 13 and 18 (maximum 30% chance) that the inspiration dice does nothing.
With vanilla BI, if they need your friend needs to pass a DC13 save they will only use the BI is they roll between 7 and 12, the 70% of the time they roll outside of this they will keep it until next time. Unfailing inspiration and Infectious inspiration really boost bardic inspiration but even before level 6 I think most of the time the eloquence bard is better off giving friend their inspiration.
As someone who played a bard for two years, I believe that the OP has a good point if we only look at the basic function of the bardic inspiration. However, I do think that the subclass specific use of BI was extremely powerful for some subclasses. I was an Eloquence Bard and dominated the field using Unsettling Words in combination with my own spells or someone else's when we had another caster on the team. I would argue that playing Eloquence makes for the most satisfying experience using BI and that it is very satisfying forcing failed saves almost always. Some subclasses though, just are awful with it and if that is the case, having the core use of BI being a bit of a snooze just makes playing those lesser subclasses all the more challenging.
Eloquence is a great subclass but I think unsettling words is overated.
The problem with unsettling words is you use the inspiration up before the roll is made. Say you are at level 3, with a +3 to charisma trying to cast blindness. Your save DC is 13. If the enemy rolls 12 or less on the save (before the unsettling words) they would have failed anyway so the dice does nothing. If they roll 19 or more again the inspration dice is wasted because they are guaranteed ot make the save, it is only if they roll between 13 and 18 (maximum 30% chance) that the inspiration dice does nothing.
With vanilla BI, if they need your friend needs to pass a DC13 save they will only use the BI is they roll between 7 and 12, the 70% of the time they roll outside of this they will keep it until next time. Unfailing inspiration and Infectious inspiration really boost bardic inspiration but even before level 6 I think most of the time the eloquence bard is better off giving friend their inspiration.
Well, if your DC is 13 at level 3, you are going to benefit from a -3.5 to a save more than you won't. The average wisdom save modifier for monsters is 1.8, which means that without UW, the average successful save is about 50%. With the average of UW, at level 3 with that save DC, you would decrease successful saves to roughly 32%. That is pretty close to imposing disadvantage on a roll.
For anyone who rolls or does point buy and has a 4 or 5 to their charisma modifier, it's even better and the power of BI goes up as you level. I believe I started with +4 and maxed my charisma with my first ASI, then BI becomes a d8 at level 5. I ran my bard until level 12 and the number of times my targets successfully saved could have probably been counted on one hand. Part of that is just the math and the other part of it was choosing great targets using good guesses on which spells to use, but I would hardly call UW overrated even using Standard Array at level 3.
Unfailing Inspiration was the only reason I used standard BI at all.
Well, if your DC is 13 at level 3, you are going to benefit more from a -3.5 to a save more than you won't. The average wisdom save modifier for monsters is 1.8, which means that without UW, the average successful save is about 50%. With the average of UW, at level 3 with that save DC, you would decrease successful saves to roughly 32%. That is pretty close to imposing disadvantage on a roll.
For anyone who rolls or does point buy and has a 4 or 5 to their charisma modifier, it's even better and the power of BI goes up as you level. I believe I started with +4 and maxed my charisma with my first ASI, then BI becomes a d8 at level 5. I ran my bard until level 12 and the number of times my targets successfully saved could have probably been counted on one hand. Part of that is just the math and the other part of it was choosing great targets using good guesses on which spells to use, but I would hardly call UW overrated even using Standard Array at level 3.
Unfailing Inspiration was the only reason I used standard BI at all.
Most of your maths is correct though increased charisma doesn't increase tehe power of BI. Yo reduce the monsters success chance the same amount with or without it.
The thing you are ignoring is while UW is effective on a monster BI is mor eeffective on your friend at least if they are making multiple rolls. With one dice you can either:
Use unsettling words will reduce the monsters chance of success by 17.5%, it will turn a success into a fail
Use BI and the first time your friend rolls there is a 70% chance BI wont help so they wont use it, if it can help they might choose not to because it is unlikely to help but to keep it simple I will assume they do, there is a 1 in 6 chance it will guarantee success (if they need a 1) down to a 1/6 chance if they need a 6, on average on the 30% of the time theyuse the BI it has 58% chance of turning a success into a fail, therefore there is a 17.5% chance of turning a fail into a success on the first roll but 70% of the time the BI is unused.
If it is unused the second next roll made my the PC has a 30% chance of being helped by BI and if BI is used it has a 58% chance of turning the fail into success
If the character is making enough rolls for it to be unlikely the BI is expired due to time BI has about a 58% chance of turning a fail into a success
If the DC/AC is unknown the 30% is increased a bit and the 58% goes down but if the player needs a 6 to succeed they can choose to keep the die for when it has better odds of success then the 58% goes up.
So in cases where characters are making a lot of rolls you can either have a 58% chance of turning a friends roll from a fail to a success or a 17.5% chance of turning an ememy's roll from a success to a fail. Sometimes the impact of a save of suck spell is so great UW is better than BI but I find that the exception rather than the rule.
Well, if your DC is 13 at level 3, you are going to benefit more from a -3.5 to a save more than you won't. The average wisdom save modifier for monsters is 1.8, which means that without UW, the average successful save is about 50%. With the average of UW, at level 3 with that save DC, you would decrease successful saves to roughly 32%. That is pretty close to imposing disadvantage on a roll.
For anyone who rolls or does point buy and has a 4 or 5 to their charisma modifier, it's even better and the power of BI goes up as you level. I believe I started with +4 and maxed my charisma with my first ASI, then BI becomes a d8 at level 5. I ran my bard until level 12 and the number of times my targets successfully saved could have probably been counted on one hand. Part of that is just the math and the other part of it was choosing great targets using good guesses on which spells to use, but I would hardly call UW overrated even using Standard Array at level 3.
Unfailing Inspiration was the only reason I used standard BI at all.
Most of your maths is correct though increased charisma doesn't increase tehe power of BI. Yo reduce the monsters success chance the same amount with or without it.
The thing you are ignoring is while UW is effective on a monster BI is mor eeffective on your friend at least if they are making multiple rolls. With one dice you can either:
Use unsettling words will reduce the monsters chance of success by 17.5%, it will turn a success into a fail
Use BI and the first time your friend rolls there is a 70% chance BI wont help so they wont use it, if it can help they might choose not to because it is unlikely to help but to keep it simple I will assume they do, there is a 1 in 6 chance it will guarantee success (if they need a 1) down to a 1/6 chance if they need a 6, on average on the 30% of the time theyuse the BI it has 58% chance of turning a success into a fail, therefore there is a 17.5% chance of turning a fail into a success on the first roll but 70% of the time the BI is unused.
If it is unused the second next roll made my the PC has a 30% chance of being helped by BI and if BI is used it has a 58% chance of turning the fail into success
If the character is making enough rolls for it to be unlikely the BI is expired due to time BI has about a 58% chance of turning a fail into a success
If the DC/AC is unknown the 30% is increased a bit and the 58% goes down but if the player needs a 6 to succeed they can choose to keep the die for when it has better odds of success then the 58% goes up.
So in cases where characters are making a lot of rolls you can either have a 58% chance of turning a friends roll from a fail to a success or a 17.5% chance of turning an ememy's roll from a success to a fail. Sometimes the impact of a save of suck spell is so great UW is better than BI but I find that the exception rather than the rule.
I may not have been clear. My increased charisma was to increase the power of the spell save DC which will further reduce the chances that a UW/spell combination will fail.
I don't have any issue with your math, but not everyone uses standard array, which is what your math is entirely based upon and will limit your ability to engage in this discussion to only the least powerful version of a bard. That's fine, but I don't think you are making your case even when using the least charitable version of the bard in your argument. The lowest stat loadout for my party was 85 at level 1 due to rolling 4d6, r1, dl. It's been years, but I believe I started with 88. In my own experience, standard array is rare. In fact, I have been the only one to utilize it as DM in my circle. It's fine for theory-crafting, but it doesn't really speak to the experiences of many and based on my own limited experience, I would say it is not representative of most player experiences.
Additionally, when you inspire someone, you have to hope they end up having a reason to use the inspiration. Since my party had their primary stat maxed practically from the start, BI in my case would have largely been used to insulate my team from spell attacks that required saves. Why do that and guess at who that caster will target when I could just neutralize the caster (and thus its ability to be effective against any target) myself with an UW Hideous Laughter combo, or some other variation? That is essentially how it played out. I would select the target that would potentially give us the most trouble, choose a save I thought I would be able to overcome, and let the party pick apart the enemy as they saw fit.
I guess I agree with you to an extent. If you are using the least powerful version of a PC using Standard Array, you may find that the standard use of Bardic Inspiration has more use. However, if you roll your stats and come out with a reasonably powerful caster, you may find that more often than not, dealing with problems yourself using Unsettling Words is the better option. It will be table-dependent.
I may not have been clear. My increased charisma was to increase the power of the spell save DC which will further reduce the chances that a UW/spell combination will fail.
I don't have any issue with your math, but not everyone uses standard array, which is what your math is entirely based upon and will limit your ability to engage in this discussion to only the least powerful version of a bard. That's fine, but I don't think you are making your case even when using the least charitable version of the bard in your argument. The lowest stat loadout for my party was 85 at level 1 due to rolling 4d6, r1, dl. It's been years, but I believe I started with 88. In my own experience, standard array is rare. In fact, I have been the only one to utilize it as DM in my circle. It's fine for theory-crafting, but it doesn't really speak to the experiences of many and based on my own limited experience, I would say it is not representative of most player experiences.
Additionally, when you inspire someone, you have to hope they end up having a reason to use the inspiration. Since my party had their primary stat maxed practically from the start, BI in my case would have largely been used to insulate my team from spell attacks that required saves. Why do that and guess at who that caster will target when I could just neutralize the caster (and thus its ability to be effective against any target) myself with an UW Hideous Laughter combo, or some other variation? That is essentially how it played out. I would select the target that would potentially give us the most trouble, choose a save I thought I would be able to overcome, and let the party pick apart the enemy as they saw fit.
I guess I agree with you to an extent. If you are using the least powerful version of a PC using Standard Array, you may find that the standard use of Bardic Inspiration has more use. However, if you roll your stats and come out with a reasonably powerful caster, you may find that more often than not, dealing with problems yourself using Unsettling Words is the better option. It will be table-dependent.
Wow your party is far more powerful than RAW. There are three alternatives for stats in the PHB
4d6 drop lowest. This gives a average total score of 73.44 + racials
standard array. Total score of 72 + racials
Point Buy. Total score 69 to 75 + racials
Rerolling 1s increases the average to 80.8 so your party also all rolled exceptionally well.
Having said that my argument is independent of stats until they get insane my second post carefully ignored that (I actually usually use point buy and my first post was based on that rather tha standard array). If a PC needs to roll a natural 7 to make a save bardic inspriation there is a 30% chance of BI migth help (if they roll between 1 and 6), and the chance of it then succeeding is 58%. This is the same as if a natural 20 is needed to succeed it is just BI now helps on rolls between 14 and 19, the high stat character has more chance of a success without BI and the low stat character has more chance of a fail that BI can not help but the chance of having a roll where BI might help is the same. The same applies for attack rolls until you get to the point that anything except a natural 1 is a hit.
I agree, when you inspire someone, you have to hope they end up having a reason to use the inspiration, which is why I gave the caviat in situations where PCs are expected to make multiple rolls in the next 10 minutes. There are cases where UW might be better than BI especially when you are fighting a single monster but in cases where you have choice of shutting down one enemy or several or protecting 1 PC it might be better to preotect your friend even if it wasn't for the benefit of the decision to use a BI is after the roll. You might use UW to debuff the necromancer but his shadows could still kill the PC who dumped strength. If you are fighting as group of spiders you can only UW 1 of them (using a dice each round to do so) but you can BI one of your friends and if they don't need it you can BI another the next round, if you see the spiders before combat starts you can even BI all the party in advance if your charisma is high enough.
Wow your party is far more powerful than RAW. There are three alternatives for stats in the PHB
4d6 drop lowest. This gives a average total score of 73.44 + racials
standard array. Total score of 72 + racials
Point Buy. Total score 69 to 75 + racials
Rerolling 1s increases the average to 80.8 so your party also all rolled exceptionally well.
Having said that my argument is independent of stats until they get insane my second post carefully ignored that (I actually usually use point buy and my first post was based on that rather tha standard array). If a PC needs to roll a natural 7 to make a save bardic inspriation there is a 30% chance of BI migth help (if they roll between 1 and 6), and the chance of it then succeeding is 58%. This is the same as if a natural 20 is needed to succeed it is just BI now helps on rolls between 14 and 19, the high stat character has more chance of a success without BI and the low stat character has more chance of a fail that BI can not help but the chance of having a roll where BI might help is the same. The same applies for attack rolls until you get to the point that anything except a natural 1 is a hit.
I agree, when you inspire someone, you have to hope they end up having a reason to use the inspiration, which is why I gave the caviat in situations where PCs are expected to make multiple rolls in the next 10 minutes. There are cases where UW might be better than BI especially when you are fighting a single monster but in cases where you have choice of shutting down one enemy or several or protecting 1 PC it might be better to preotect your friend even if it wasn't for the benefit of the decision to use a BI is after the roll. You might use UW to debuff the necromancer but his shadows could still kill the PC who dumped strength. If you are fighting as group of spiders you can only UW 1 of them (using a dice each round to do so) but you can BI one of your friends and if they don't need it you can BI another the next round, if you see the spiders before combat starts you can even BI all the party in advance if your charisma is high enough.
Sadly, it is now that my party was far more powerful than RAW. :'(
I don't know if I agree with you about whether your argument is independent of stats when we are discussing the value of BI's impact of changing a miss to a hit or a failed save into a success when stat modifiers significantly and directly impact both of these, and you were discussing the probability of making successful rolls. The average monster DC for spells at CR 3 is 12.5, so I doubt a natural roll of 7 would be sufficient at this level in most situations, though I admit that a BI could make a noteworthy difference to that save depending on the save modifiers for the PC.
However, even if I did agree with you here, I don't think it would really matter because the ability to change one miss into a hit, in my mind, has far less value over the course of a battle than it does to neutralize a single big problem monster, potentially for the entire battle. A single hit is going to make very little difference in most battles but a minor boss in a multi-monster battle or a caster in a squad of melee fighters being shut down is a big deal every time. Removing a necromancer like this while the party focuses on taking out those shadows you mentioned seems to have more battle import than it would giving a party member the ability to turn one miss into a hit or one failed save into a success. I have no doubt that this is not always the case but with my experience as an Eloquence Bard (albeit a powerful one), this was overwhelmingly true most of the time. This perspective may be skewed by my party's power because a powerful party meant powerful enemies. Perhaps at a strictly RAW table (so Adventure League tables), this would not be the case and your argument is more accurate in these situations. I would be willing to concede there, as I have not played at a strictly RAW game and don't know anyone who has.
Say the players are low level and so the inspiration dice is a d6. The PC has to get a 16 make the save / hit with the attack / make the skill check.
Something like Flash of Genius doesn't exist at all for those levels and that bonus from Bardic Inspiration almost doubles the chance for success.
If they roll 16 or higher or less than 10 there is no point rolling the inspiration dice because it can not impact the result. Usually the AC / DC is unknown but often the player has a good idea what it might be if previously a 17 on an attack roll has hit but a 15 has missed the AC must be 16 or 17. Thinking about climbing a wall the player could ask the DM "how easy does the wall look to climb? is it smooth or are there places I can use as foot and handholds?" If the DM replies "There are plenty of footholds and handholds you think with your athletics training and natural strength it should be fairly striaghtforward to climb but there is a risk of falling if you seriously mess it up", the player is likely to think anything more than a natural 5 is unlikely to need inspiration.
A player can also ask qualitative questions like that for a rough idea of AC, such as the obvious type of armor an opponent might be wearing. Experienced players are often going to have an idea on approximate DC's based on the party's level and monsters they are facing. But it's not relevant to a comparison of Bardic Inspiration and other options because knowing or not knowing the target to roll can be an issue regardless.
Abilities like Flash of Genius that trigger on a failure have an advantage here, but Bardic Inspiration can be used so many more times in a day that the positive impact of the ability will trigger more often.
I agree the bard can do things like give out inspiration when the character is likely to make multiple rolls in the next 10 minutes but they might choose to use it differently than the bard would like. The (say level 11) fighter might use it to make one of his attacks hit doing an extra 10 damage only to have dominate person cast on him later in the round which he fails the save by one or two, and in the next round beats up the bard. Conversely the fighter might choose not to use inspiration when asked to make a wis save because he thinks he has scored high enough without only to find the DC was higher than he expected (and again beats up the bard on his next turn). The bard can choose not to give inspiration to the fighter but that doesb't stop him getting beaten up when the fighter has dominate person cast on them.
The fighter has advantage on saving throws against Dominate Person because they are in combat already and gets subsequent saving throws every time they take damage. That usually gives plenty of opportunity to use the Bardic Inspiration die. If Bardic Inspiration wasn't given to the fighter then spend the bonus action to give it. The bard also doesn't become helpless and get beat up just because the fighter didn't use the inspiration die then instead of a different time. ;-)
If it the fact that giving out a bardic inspiration passes control of when it is used to another player which bard players can find frrustraing and it looks as if this will be addressed in 5e2024.
Why do you need to control something you've given to someone else? If you cast Haste on him do you determine when he uses that extra attack? If you give him a potion that he might need do you decide when he should use it? If you give him rations do you decide when he eats them?
You don't need to determine when a bonus you've gifted him needs to get used after finding out a check failed looking back with your 20/20 hindsight. ;-)
You could play the character casting Dominate Person and watch the initial save succeed, wasting a spell slot instead of a Bardic Inspiration die roll. Finite resources poof in this game. Bardic Inspiration is consistent with many effects in that regard.
If combat is all your game is about, Bardic Inspiration is not the best option for a support build. If you use skills while roleplaying, it's fantastic.
You can buff a thief who's got Reliable Talent and Expertise and let them sneak past someone with an overwhelmingly high passive perception. You can walk into a library with a wizard who's got expertise in History, and find the one secret you need to ace your quest. You can buff a fellow dance bard with performance expertise and let them seduce the dragon via Lambada.
But yes, if all you're doing is playing MMORPG style raids with dice, and all you care about is optimizing, it's not going to make your game more fun.
As someone who played a bard for two years, I believe that the OP has a good point if we only look at the basic function of the bardic inspiration. However, I do think that the subclass specific use of BI was extremely powerful for some subclasses. I was an Eloquence Bard and dominated the field using Unsettling Words in combination with my own spells or someone else's when we had another caster on the team. I would argue that playing Eloquence makes for the most satisfying experience using BI and that it is very satisfying forcing failed saves almost always. Some subclasses though, just are awful with it and if that is the case, having the core use of BI being a bit of a snooze just makes playing those lesser subclasses all the more challenging.
Eloquence is a great subclass but I think unsettling words is overated.
The problem with unsettling words is you use the inspiration up before the roll is made. Say you are at level 3, with a +3 to charisma trying to cast blindness. Your save DC is 13. If the enemy rolls 12 or less on the save (before the unsettling words) they would have failed anyway so the dice does nothing. If they roll 19 or more again the inspration dice is wasted because they are guaranteed ot make the save, it is only if they roll between 13 and 18 (maximum 30% chance) that the inspiration dice does nothing.
With vanilla BI, if they need your friend needs to pass a DC13 save they will only use the BI is they roll between 7 and 12, the 70% of the time they roll outside of this they will keep it until next time. Unfailing inspiration and Infectious inspiration really boost bardic inspiration but even before level 6 I think most of the time the eloquence bard is better off giving friend their inspiration.
At level 3 its not great but at level 5 when it recharges on a short rest it is awesome. Sure you use it before you know if they fail, but every day, there are clutch moments and standard moments, you will have more than enough inspirations for all of those clutch moments and still have some left over for standard inspiration. You wont bother using it on a hold on random orc #5. If they succeed on the save its just a oh well.
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I am currently playing a lore bard and i am very dissapointed with bardic inspiration.
There are so many other ways to get bonuses to attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws that most of the bardic inspirations i have given out 1) never needed to be used 2) were forgotten about or 3) rolled when the player need a very high inspiration so ended up failing anyways. Probably one inspiration die in ten actually comes in clutch. Maybe less. For a core class feature i was expecting more. Its quite meh.
Cutting words is decent for causing an attack to miss now and then and is great fun for the insults but not enough to make up for the dissapointment of standard bardic inspiration.
We have an artificer in the party and Flash of Genius is built much better. Being able to add a number to a roll as a reaction and you know its going to work feels way more useful.
Rant over.
I believe the designers thought so as well and during playtest 2.
But clearly people didn't like it in the survey and it promptly got changed back. I am playing a warlock/bard in a campaign and I've given probably 1 inspiration out because people tend to forget to use them and I don't want to go, "oh don't forget you have bardic inspiration". So when building my concept of my character, I'm going with a swords bard so I don't have to give them out.
I really like Mantle of Inspiration. Up to your charisma modifier a number of creatures get a plus 5 to hit points any creature upon receiving the hit points can move its speed with no opportunity attacks. I use it on are party to move in and out of combate while avoiding hits. and you can potentially do this 3,4,5 times in a battle. Shifting the battle field on your turn each time you use it.
Flash of Genius is not better than Bardic Inspiration.
Placing an appropriate die in front of a player who has Bardic Inspiration on them will help them remember they have that option.
It's true that Flash of Genius allows for knowing the results of the check before using but it's not difficult to avoid adding the bonus to high rolls or avoid it with low rolls. Make the check, and if it looks like it might fail but pass with a small bonus after looking at the roll but before being told the results then use it.
I’m playing a bard for the first time, and I’m using it frequently. Yes, I make the effort to remind players and the DM (for NPCs). So what? I figure it goes along with the support caster role, and I’m leaning into it. I haven’t been keeping stats, but it has resulted in a few misses turning into hits. Nothing do or die yet, but I’ve only played a few sessions.
While that is all true and as a whole bardic inspiration is a more impactful feature than flash of genius the annoying thing with bardic inspiration is it sometimes doen't get used. This can either happen because the need doesn't come up within 10 minutes (you give it to the low athletics PC before they attemt to climb a wall and they roll a natural 20), the player of the inspired PC forgets they have it or they save it for a better moment (they don't use it when they miss a weapon attack on a dragon in case they need it to save from the breath weapon and the dragon never gets its breath weapon back)
I agree. I think this is the best subclass ability in the game for level 3 and below. In games I have played this has been more powerful than even Twilight Sanctuary.
What it also works great for is AOE spells. You want to cast Fear or Hypnotic Pattern but your tank and cleric are in the way. Use this and have them move as a Bonus action and then cast your crowd pleaser! Works if your Wizard buddy is next in initiative and wants to use fireball too.
Rolling a natural 20 is the exception, not the rule.
My advice is save the Bardic Inspiration for when a battle is expected or a situation with multiple rolling required. In the climbing example a climber's kit affords falling protection and getting a good climber to lead ahead and attach pitons for the poor climber makes it easier. Climbing is possible to make easier through equipment, the help action, and/or group checks.
If a player ignores the reminder and doesn't use the BI die, then stop giving it to that player and give it to another player who does use it. In any event, losing the usefulness of the die is part of the game and isn't really any different than any other finite resource with an all or nothing effect.
The 2024 updates look like they're moving away from that as too given both versions are based on failing the roll, and the second version is a carry with ability that lasts an hour instead of ten minutes.
The Natural 20 was an example, as was climbing, less exceptionally:
Say the players are low level and so the inspiration dice is a d6. The PC has to get a 16 make the save / hit with the attack / make the skill check. If they roll 16 or higher or less than 10 there is no point rolling the inspiration dice because it can not impact the result. Usually the AC / DC is unknown but often the player has a good idea what it might be if previously a 17 on an attack roll has hit but a 15 has missed the AC must be 16 or 17. Thinking about climbing a wall the player could ask the DM "how easy does the wall look to climb? is it smooth or are there places I can use as foot and handholds?" If the DM replies "There are plenty of footholds and handholds you think with your athletics training and natural strength it should be fairly striaghtforward to climb but there is a risk of falling if you seriously mess it up", the player is likely to think anything more than a natural 5 is unlikely to need inspiration.
I agree the bard can do things like give out inspiration when the character is likely to make multiple rolls in the next 10 minutes but they might choose to use it differently than the bard would like. The (say level 11) fighter might use it to make one of his attacks hit doing an extra 10 damage only to have dominate person cast on him later in the round which he fails the save by one or two, and in the next round beats up the bard. Conversely the fighter might choose not to use inspiration when asked to make a wis save because he thinks he has scored high enough without only to find the DC was higher than he expected (and again beats up the bard on his next turn). The bard can choose not to give inspiration to the fighter but that doesb't stop him getting beaten up when the fighter has dominate person cast on them.
If it the fact that giving out a bardic inspiration passes control of when it is used to another player which bard players can find frrustraing and it looks as if this will be addressed in 5e2024.
As someone who played a bard for two years, I believe that the OP has a good point if we only look at the basic function of the bardic inspiration. However, I do think that the subclass specific use of BI was extremely powerful for some subclasses. I was an Eloquence Bard and dominated the field using Unsettling Words in combination with my own spells or someone else's when we had another caster on the team. I would argue that playing Eloquence makes for the most satisfying experience using BI and that it is very satisfying forcing failed saves almost always. Some subclasses though, just are awful with it and if that is the case, having the core use of BI being a bit of a snooze just makes playing those lesser subclasses all the more challenging.
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Eloquence is a great subclass but I think unsettling words is overated.
The problem with unsettling words is you use the inspiration up before the roll is made. Say you are at level 3, with a +3 to charisma trying to cast blindness. Your save DC is 13. If the enemy rolls 12 or less on the save (before the unsettling words) they would have failed anyway so the dice does nothing. If they roll 19 or more again the inspration dice is wasted because they are guaranteed ot make the save, it is only if they roll between 13 and 18 (maximum 30% chance) that the inspiration dice does nothing.
With vanilla BI, if they need your friend needs to pass a DC13 save they will only use the BI is they roll between 7 and 12, the 70% of the time they roll outside of this they will keep it until next time. Unfailing inspiration and Infectious inspiration really boost bardic inspiration but even before level 6 I think most of the time the eloquence bard is better off giving friend their inspiration.
Well, if your DC is 13 at level 3, you are going to benefit from a -3.5 to a save more than you won't. The average wisdom save modifier for monsters is 1.8, which means that without UW, the average successful save is about 50%. With the average of UW, at level 3 with that save DC, you would decrease successful saves to roughly 32%. That is pretty close to imposing disadvantage on a roll.
For anyone who rolls or does point buy and has a 4 or 5 to their charisma modifier, it's even better and the power of BI goes up as you level. I believe I started with +4 and maxed my charisma with my first ASI, then BI becomes a d8 at level 5. I ran my bard until level 12 and the number of times my targets successfully saved could have probably been counted on one hand. Part of that is just the math and the other part of it was choosing great targets using good guesses on which spells to use, but I would hardly call UW overrated even using Standard Array at level 3.
Unfailing Inspiration was the only reason I used standard BI at all.
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Most of your maths is correct though increased charisma doesn't increase tehe power of BI. Yo reduce the monsters success chance the same amount with or without it.
The thing you are ignoring is while UW is effective on a monster BI is mor eeffective on your friend at least if they are making multiple rolls. With one dice you can either:
So in cases where characters are making a lot of rolls you can either have a 58% chance of turning a friends roll from a fail to a success or a 17.5% chance of turning an ememy's roll from a success to a fail. Sometimes the impact of a save of suck spell is so great UW is better than BI but I find that the exception rather than the rule.
I may not have been clear. My increased charisma was to increase the power of the spell save DC which will further reduce the chances that a UW/spell combination will fail.
I don't have any issue with your math, but not everyone uses standard array, which is what your math is entirely based upon and will limit your ability to engage in this discussion to only the least powerful version of a bard. That's fine, but I don't think you are making your case even when using the least charitable version of the bard in your argument. The lowest stat loadout for my party was 85 at level 1 due to rolling 4d6, r1, dl. It's been years, but I believe I started with 88. In my own experience, standard array is rare. In fact, I have been the only one to utilize it as DM in my circle. It's fine for theory-crafting, but it doesn't really speak to the experiences of many and based on my own limited experience, I would say it is not representative of most player experiences.
Additionally, when you inspire someone, you have to hope they end up having a reason to use the inspiration. Since my party had their primary stat maxed practically from the start, BI in my case would have largely been used to insulate my team from spell attacks that required saves. Why do that and guess at who that caster will target when I could just neutralize the caster (and thus its ability to be effective against any target) myself with an UW Hideous Laughter combo, or some other variation? That is essentially how it played out. I would select the target that would potentially give us the most trouble, choose a save I thought I would be able to overcome, and let the party pick apart the enemy as they saw fit.
I guess I agree with you to an extent. If you are using the least powerful version of a PC using Standard Array, you may find that the standard use of Bardic Inspiration has more use. However, if you roll your stats and come out with a reasonably powerful caster, you may find that more often than not, dealing with problems yourself using Unsettling Words is the better option. It will be table-dependent.
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Wow your party is far more powerful than RAW. There are three alternatives for stats in the PHB
Rerolling 1s increases the average to 80.8 so your party also all rolled exceptionally well.
Having said that my argument is independent of stats until they get insane my second post carefully ignored that (I actually usually use point buy and my first post was based on that rather tha standard array). If a PC needs to roll a natural 7 to make a save bardic inspriation there is a 30% chance of BI migth help (if they roll between 1 and 6), and the chance of it then succeeding is 58%. This is the same as if a natural 20 is needed to succeed it is just BI now helps on rolls between 14 and 19, the high stat character has more chance of a success without BI and the low stat character has more chance of a fail that BI can not help but the chance of having a roll where BI might help is the same. The same applies for attack rolls until you get to the point that anything except a natural 1 is a hit.
I agree, when you inspire someone, you have to hope they end up having a reason to use the inspiration, which is why I gave the caviat in situations where PCs are expected to make multiple rolls in the next 10 minutes. There are cases where UW might be better than BI especially when you are fighting a single monster but in cases where you have choice of shutting down one enemy or several or protecting 1 PC it might be better to preotect your friend even if it wasn't for the benefit of the decision to use a BI is after the roll. You might use UW to debuff the necromancer but his shadows could still kill the PC who dumped strength. If you are fighting as group of spiders you can only UW 1 of them (using a dice each round to do so) but you can BI one of your friends and if they don't need it you can BI another the next round, if you see the spiders before combat starts you can even BI all the party in advance if your charisma is high enough.
Sadly, it is now that my party was far more powerful than RAW. :'(
I don't know if I agree with you about whether your argument is independent of stats when we are discussing the value of BI's impact of changing a miss to a hit or a failed save into a success when stat modifiers significantly and directly impact both of these, and you were discussing the probability of making successful rolls. The average monster DC for spells at CR 3 is 12.5, so I doubt a natural roll of 7 would be sufficient at this level in most situations, though I admit that a BI could make a noteworthy difference to that save depending on the save modifiers for the PC.
However, even if I did agree with you here, I don't think it would really matter because the ability to change one miss into a hit, in my mind, has far less value over the course of a battle than it does to neutralize a single big problem monster, potentially for the entire battle. A single hit is going to make very little difference in most battles but a minor boss in a multi-monster battle or a caster in a squad of melee fighters being shut down is a big deal every time. Removing a necromancer like this while the party focuses on taking out those shadows you mentioned seems to have more battle import than it would giving a party member the ability to turn one miss into a hit or one failed save into a success. I have no doubt that this is not always the case but with my experience as an Eloquence Bard (albeit a powerful one), this was overwhelmingly true most of the time. This perspective may be skewed by my party's power because a powerful party meant powerful enemies. Perhaps at a strictly RAW table (so Adventure League tables), this would not be the case and your argument is more accurate in these situations. I would be willing to concede there, as I have not played at a strictly RAW game and don't know anyone who has.
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Something like Flash of Genius doesn't exist at all for those levels and that bonus from Bardic Inspiration almost doubles the chance for success.
A player can also ask qualitative questions like that for a rough idea of AC, such as the obvious type of armor an opponent might be wearing. Experienced players are often going to have an idea on approximate DC's based on the party's level and monsters they are facing. But it's not relevant to a comparison of Bardic Inspiration and other options because knowing or not knowing the target to roll can be an issue regardless.
Abilities like Flash of Genius that trigger on a failure have an advantage here, but Bardic Inspiration can be used so many more times in a day that the positive impact of the ability will trigger more often.
The fighter has advantage on saving throws against Dominate Person because they are in combat already and gets subsequent saving throws every time they take damage. That usually gives plenty of opportunity to use the Bardic Inspiration die. If Bardic Inspiration wasn't given to the fighter then spend the bonus action to give it. The bard also doesn't become helpless and get beat up just because the fighter didn't use the inspiration die then instead of a different time. ;-)
Why do you need to control something you've given to someone else? If you cast Haste on him do you determine when he uses that extra attack? If you give him a potion that he might need do you decide when he should use it? If you give him rations do you decide when he eats them?
You don't need to determine when a bonus you've gifted him needs to get used after finding out a check failed looking back with your 20/20 hindsight. ;-)
You could play the character casting Dominate Person and watch the initial save succeed, wasting a spell slot instead of a Bardic Inspiration die roll. Finite resources poof in this game. Bardic Inspiration is consistent with many effects in that regard.
It definatly allows your melee players to avoid the incoming AOE you are about to let lose. Great use of it
If combat is all your game is about, Bardic Inspiration is not the best option for a support build. If you use skills while roleplaying, it's fantastic.
You can buff a thief who's got Reliable Talent and Expertise and let them sneak past someone with an overwhelmingly high passive perception. You can walk into a library with a wizard who's got expertise in History, and find the one secret you need to ace your quest. You can buff a fellow dance bard with performance expertise and let them seduce the dragon via Lambada.
But yes, if all you're doing is playing MMORPG style raids with dice, and all you care about is optimizing, it's not going to make your game more fun.
At level 3 its not great but at level 5 when it recharges on a short rest it is awesome. Sure you use it before you know if they fail, but every day, there are clutch moments and standard moments, you will have more than enough inspirations for all of those clutch moments and still have some left over for standard inspiration. You wont bother using it on a hold on random orc #5. If they succeed on the save its just a oh well.