So what two cantrips do you take when you don't take VM and what do you do in combat while you don't use spell slots or concentrate on stuff?
From this list i would probably go Minor Illusion and VM, eventough i really don't like VM. As MI depends on the DM, else I would probably take Mage Hand and VM or VM and Predigistation cause for me its the i am a spellcaster spell. Snip and the candle burns, always be clean, food is never bland. :)
Would be so extremly useful in real life. Like unseen servant. That is the reason i want to learn magic. Never do chores again in your whole life...
If by some strange twist of fate somebody let me choose a feat and I got the benefits in real life it would be MI for Mage Hand, Prestidigitation and Unseen Servant. That would be perfect.
Er, anyway, back to bard cantrips. The problem is Bards don't really have much in the way of offensive cantrips - because they're not really designed as the main damage dealer, they're mostly controllers. The only two choices are Thunderclap (TC) or Vicious Mockery (VM). TC is not bad, it affects all enemies within 5 ft and does 1d6, but it's a Con save which enemies often get a lot of so it's more highly resisted and the save-or-suck often-resisted cantrip will dwindle as you level, and the 5 ft "all creatures" (including allies) will quite quickly become not worth it. You're a 1d8 spellchucker with minimal defenses, bar one or two higher subclass level features, dafluff you goin' to melee for and for such a piddly cantrip?
VM on the other hand, is more useful. It's not saved as often, being Wisdom and it's got a tidy 60 ft range, which is fine 'nuff, against most enemies. Sure the 1d4 isn't a lot. But as been said, you're not the damage-dealing guy. So it's that disadvantage to next attack you want. Besides against a commoner, who has only 4 hit points, +0 Wis save and +2 to hit, you could, most probably, be able to just there and insult then to death as they're unable to hit you. Most enemies you start facing won't have many hit points and usually only have one attack - so the damage is OK and that disadvantage could be a life-saver. Even when enemies get multiattack, that disadvantage to one of them might cause a miss and save you/an ally. Unlike TC, VM combos well with other spells like Bane : -1d4 and disadvantage to one attack? That's a decent nerf to an enemy and could make a big difference.
The only other option is a physical weapon, which will likely be one-handed and so 1d8, no scaling and no secondary effect and you, as a squishy spellslinger, need to be in melee.
Of the three, it's VM all the way. And it's the most bard-like. It's mental, vocal, creative and controlling. It's pure bard, all the way.
With a starting feat, though, I could possibly consider taking Mind Sliver using MI. It's still somewhat bard-ish and that -1d4 to next save is so sweet when your control spells are the save-or-suck kind. Sure, again, there are others that deal more damage like the trusty Fire Bolt - but, if I'm picking a bard why give a shit? I never pick bard to "do damage", I pick it to use my spells and features to play my enemies like notes in a song.
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So what two cantrips do you take when you don't take VM and what do you do in combat while you don't use spell slots or concentrate on stuff?
There's the rub, eh? Bards have two damaging cantrips on their spell list: Vicious Mockery and Thunderclap. The only other cantrips with combat application are True Strike and Blade Ward. If you're playing a caster primarily, getting other cantrips can be expensive (feats or Magical secrets.)
I fear i don't understand your point? Yes, if i would play bards, which i almost never do, it would annoy me that there are only two damage cantrips and one of them almost unusable for a bard which should usaully stay far behind other people and even worse targets CON. Sure that is not the best part of being a bard, but a big part of that game is taking the attack action also in fights where you should not waste spell slots and then this is the thing you do very often especially in dungeon crawls or games with long days. So i would love they would offer some variety for bards? I mean you could reflavor toll the dead as a disharmonic sound instead of a bell with grave power?
And I agree true strike and blade ward exist. I thinkt that is the nicest that can be said about that completly useless spells? I would love if Wizards would errata that spells away not to trick new players to choose them by mistake or make them usefull somehow. For example they could scale like other cantrips and make it usefull. At level 5 you and another person have advantage, ending up at you and 3 other people have advantage. Which would be great for a party with Rogues or Paladins and would give the Bard a good option for his turn withouth attacking? As the new kobold can only to that proficency times a day it is probably to strong.
So what two cantrips do you take when you don't take VM and what do you do in combat while you don't use spell slots or concentrate on stuff?
There's the rub, eh? Bards have two damaging cantrips on their spell list: Vicious Mockery and Thunderclap. The only other cantrips with combat application are True Strike and Blade Ward. If you're playing a caster primarily, getting other cantrips can be expensive (feats or Magical secrets.)
I fear i don't understand your point? Yes, if i would play bards, which i almost never do, it would annoy me that there are only two damage cantrips and one of them almost unusable for a bard which should usaully stay far behind other people and even worse targets CON. Sure that is not the best part of being a bard, but a big part of that game is taking the attack action also in fights where you should not waste spell slots and then this is the thing you do very often especially in dungeon crawls or games with long days. So i would love they would offer some variety for bards? I mean you could reflavor toll the dead as a disharmonic sound instead of a bell with grave power?
And I agree true strike and blade ward exist. I thinkt that is the nicest that can be said about that completly useless spells? I would love if Wizards would errata that spells away not to trick new players to choose them by mistake or make them usefull somehow. For example they could scale like other cantrips and make it usefull. At level 5 you and another person have advantage, ending up at you and 3 other people have advantage. Which would be great for a party with Rogues or Paladins and would give the Bard a good option for his turn withouth attacking? As the new kobold can only to that proficency times a day it is probably to strong.
Well, the original question I was responding to was looking at Bardic options as they currently exist. Cybermind did a great response to that idea, more thorough than I got into.
Your complaint is that Bards need access to other cantrips to offer more variety. That's not unreasonable, though which cantrips to offer is probably a matter of debate.
We should have mind sliver but Tasha’s has kind of helped this out IMHO.
I think the custom race is OP and we don’t play with it but we do allow the custom lineage or whatever it’s called that allows you to switch around the ability scores of for the races.
This lets me pick High Elf, move the 2 from int to cha and keep the 1 in dex or move it to con based on my rolls. By doing this I can pick up a wizard cantrip and I will almost always choose Mind Sliver. The rider is perfect for use and psychic damage on an int save is amazing. Yeah it’s on 1d6 but on average it’s only 2 damage less than a fire bolt and I’d bet it hits more.
In my current campaign I had god like rolls (18,17,16,13, 9,7) so I can easily grab 3 feats (res will for sure be one) I’ve considered magic initiate but honestly I’d probably grab shape water and some other utility spell over toll the dead. Plus I think I’d rather add two spells (misty step and dissonant whispers) for free given all the cool spells we have access to but only 24 (lore) known. Our sustained is a little low right now at lvl 3 but it should pick up I just don’t see the point in using a resource to grab a cantrip that will only do 5.5-6.5 damage per cantrip lvl when I already have a great one that does 3.5 per level
It’s handy when you want to nerf something with a single big attack, but now that Mind Sliver is out VM is totally overshadowed. It has a better damage die, a less common save type, and the rider is more useful, or at least easier it’s more reliably useful.
the usefulness is equal but different. Mind Sliver is just more offensive where Vicious Mockery is defensive. They don't serve quite the same purposes.
You are absolutely right. However, the defensive benefits of VM are Situational, so if the target has Multiattack or non-attack actions as alternatives then VM’s benefit is reduced. But you can almost always coordinate with a party mate to 1-2 something by setting it up with MS so the second PC can hit ‘em with something that can benefit from the reduced saving throw. So while also technically situational, that situation is at least something the players/characters can create for themselves.
It’s handy when you want to nerf something with a single big attack, but now that Mind Sliver is out VM is totally overshadowed. It has a better damage die, a less common save type, and the rider is more useful, or at least easier it’s more reliably useful.
the usefulness is equal but different. Mind Sliver is just more offensive where Vicious Mockery is defensive. They don't serve quite the same purposes.
You are absolutely right. However, the defensive benefits of VM are Situational, so if the target has Multiattack or non-attack actions as alternatives then VM’s benefit is reduced. But you can almost always coordinate with a party mate to 1-2 something by setting it up with MS so the second PC can hit ‘em with something that can benefit from the reduced saving throw. So while also technically situational, that situation is at least something the players/characters can create for themselves.
See. This is one of the lies spread. It is not Reduced. You are still getting the same benefit. And potentially blocking one attack. That does not change even with multi attack. it still potentially reduces the danger of a multi attack enemy by being one less hit from the enemy.
Also. Mind Sliver is just as situational. Your banking on some effect targeting the enemy to take advantage of it's extra affect against save attacks. which may not always happen. It may do something like move out of range or only get hit with to hit attacks. Your not accomplishing alot if you hit it with mind sliver and the only save attack it takes after that is mind sliver which it probably had a decent to good chance of failing anyway on many enemies.
It’s handy when you want to nerf something with a single big attack, but now that Mind Sliver is out VM is totally overshadowed. It has a better damage die, a less common save type, and the rider is more useful, or at least easier it’s more reliably useful.
the usefulness is equal but different. Mind Sliver is just more offensive where Vicious Mockery is defensive. They don't serve quite the same purposes.
You are absolutely right. However, the defensive benefits of VM are Situational, so if the target has Multiattack or non-attack actions as alternatives then VM’s benefit is reduced. But you can almost always coordinate with a party mate to 1-2 something by setting it up with MS so the second PC can hit ‘em with something that can benefit from the reduced saving throw. So while also technically situational, that situation is at least something the players/characters can create for themselves.
See. This is one of the lies spread. It is not Reduced. You are still getting the same benefit. And potentially blocking one attack. That does not change even with multi attack. it still potentially reduces the danger of a multi attack enemy by being one less hit from the enemy.
Also. Mind Sliver is just as situational. Your banking on some effect targeting the enemy to take advantage of it's extra affect against save attacks. which may not always happen. It may do something like move out of range or only get hit with to hit attacks. Your not accomplishing alot if you hit it with mind sliver and the only save attack it takes after that is mind sliver which it probably had a decent to good chance of failing anyway on many enemies.
You are correct, I misspoke. The benefit of VM isn’t “reduced” at all, (Xd4 damage and disadvantage on their next attack) = (Xd4 damage and disadvantage on their next attack) regardless of the situation. What I should have said is that against certain enemies, the value is reduced wen compared to the alternatives of what else one might do on their turn instead of VM. Especially by the third tier of play when a PC has so many more options available to them. Because if the enemy has a bagillion HP and either 3+ attacks or an action that forces Saves instead of attacking, VM will benefit the party less than it would if the critter had twice as many HP but only a 1-2 attacks.
Conversely, at higher levels of play the party can reasonably expect to be dealing with higher CR threats. Those threats often have high Constitution and possibly proficiency in Con Saves too. So spells or class features the other party casters might have found highly effective at lower levels now not so much. Or maybe a new spell or class feature turns out to be far less effective than expected because everything keeps making their Con saves. By coordinating a 1-2 with the Bard using Mind Sliver, the party as a whole can become better. And it works just as well for the other 5 save types too, so it can potentially could help anybody get something past a save.
When my one Bard (7th level) hit a Wight with Mind Sliver, it legitimately was the difference between that Wight successfully saving against the Cleric’s Turn Undead or not. Heck, there have been times that VM would have been far more useful than MS, and I lamented not having it. My other Bard (also 7th level) has VM and uses it at times to great affect. (Although Honestly, both Bards use Chill Touch as their primary damage cantrip.)
I am of the opinion that MS has more potential usefulness than VM. Some groups will obviously get far more mileage out of MS than other groups will. It all comes down to the party’s composition and the players’ creative and inclination towards coordinating their efforts each turn. If everyone does Attacks and nobility forces Saves, then MS is absolutely useless to that party. If players don’t communicate and coordinate their PCs’ actions then MS will only be sporadically beneficial at best. If instead the party is competent and knowledgeable about each other’s capabilities; and the players consider that stuff when leveling they make their decisions prioritizing overall group effectiveness over personal power. That group will likely still find uses for MS well into Epic levels.
When my one Bard (7th level) hit a Wight with Mind Sliver, it legitimately was the difference between that Wight successfully saving against the Cleric’s Turn Undead or not. Heck, there have been times that VM would have been far more useful than MS, and I lamented not having it. My other Bard (also 7th level) has VM and uses it at times to great affect. (Although Honestly, both Bards use Chill Touch as their primary damage cantrip.)
Your experience with Mind Sliver. Others have had this experience with phsycial attacks. Even on multiattacking enemies. Where something that does multiple devestating blows has been stopped form killing party members because one of those blows turned into a miss from disadvantage.
This is why I say one is not better than the other. the reality is that the Value is not diminished as you make it seem. Sure in white room mathematics it seems like those other three attacks are going to more than make up for missing one. But a multi attacking enemy can be suddenly a lot more managable just because it's missing a few of it's attacks. not all of it's attacks. Just a few. This is a scenario that has been run into as many times as your going to find people saved or Enemies weakened because of Mind Sliver.
They do two seperate things and neither one is more valuable because they serve seperate purposes in seperate scenario's. The Best Bards? They Are going to find uses for and potentially make life saving plays with both. And they may get little recognition from either from a decent amount of the player base because they didn't make the life saving heal or the Killing Blow. Even though that may have only been possible because of them. That's the reality of both of these abilities.
Except mindsliver is just better vicious mockery. sure vicious mockery imposing disadv is decent and the flavor is cool. Mindsliver tho imposes a negative 1d4 the next save, and does 1d6, and its an int save which is better than wisdom. the -1d4 also really helps since a lot of good spells are saves, like fireball, or lightning bolt. hell i think bards should just take Sorcerer magic initiate at lvl 4(or be human variant) for it and grab the Blade cantrips bc they go soo well with the college of swords. even can grab mage armor and use it.
Except mindsliver is just better vicious mockery. sure vicious mockery imposing disadv is decent and the flavor is cool. Mindsliver tho imposes a negative 1d4 the next save, and does 1d6, and its an int save which is better than wisdom. the -1d4 also really helps since a lot of good spells are saves, like fireball, or lightning bolt. hell i think bards should just take Sorcerer magic initiate at lvl 4(or be human variant) for it and grab the Blade cantrips bc they go soo well with the college of swords. even can grab mage armor and use it.
This is not true. They both affect different kinds of things. And are useful in different situations.
Something that gives disadvantage on attack rolls but does nothing to saves is situtaionally worse than one thta does something to saves. But the opposite is also true. Something that does something to saves but nothing to attack rolls is situationally worse to anything that is making attack rolls. One is not better than the other. Your applying biased weight to the one that your choosing to support.
I've played characters with VM, MS, and both (through multiclassing)
In my experience, VM is better against melee targets and MS is better against spellcasters, but there are a LOT of factors to consider. It heavily depends on the initiative order, party composition, and how the players and enemies are positioned.
For VM, being able to pose disadvantage on an attack can prevent a critical that would down another player or make the attack miss entirely. It's much better to use than MS if the target you're using it on goes before the person that would blast it with a saving throw spell. It's a far more clutch spell than MS is in that situation because it's no good setting up someone to deliver big on their next spell attack and they go down before they can get the spell off. If you're immediately before an enemy that can hit hard in the turn order, VM is usually the better option.
MS is great against spellcasters because concentration checks are constitution saving throws, and technically it would apply to death saving throws as well, if that ever happens at your table. It's great to be able to set up for someone else or yourself to do big damage on their next turn, but a lot can change in a round and by the time it comes back around to your turn, you might have to heal or do something else and perhaps the target didn't get hit with anything that required a saving throw. Another big advantage for MS comes around in that it might force a monster to burn a legendary resistance when you or your teammate hit it with something later in the turn or in the next. It also pairs extremely well with Quickened Spell.
I guess to me, the main difference between VM and MS is that VM is self contained while MS needs to be part of a combo. If a creature gets hit with VM, then how much of an affect it has is determined by the creature. They either have to attack with disadvantage, not attack at all, or use something that requires a saving throw. Either way you're limiting their options. MS requires another party member, an entire round of combat, or Quickened metamagic to reach its full potential.
VM is self contained defensive support while MS is offensive support that relies on another turn or another player. Both are great, but they require different situations to get the most out of them. Vicious Mockery has been more flexible for me than Mind Sliver has in the games I've played, but any of the factors that swing the balance one way or the other can easily be negated or strengthened by how the DM plays, the world you're in, the type of monsters you're facing, etc.
Yeah, but if nothing else, if nobody else hits it you’re giving yourself offensive support. Again, yes, that supposes you aren’t doing anything else. But it is also, if not self contained, at least self propagating. Both is better, but they both have strengths and weaknesses. I dunno, I guess I just suppose the bests defense is a strong offense. And at 11th level, 3d6 & -1d4 on a save edges out 3d4 & disadvantage on an attack because if it doesn’t rely on attacks, or if it has enough of them, it’s usefulness starts to go down compared to other actions. And if it has advantage, the best you did was nill that for one swipe. And if they already has disadvantage, ya did bubcus.
But -1d4 is a guaranteed minimum of -1 on its save against me next turn. Period. If they fail the save, the damage is higher, the secondary is guaranteed to have some effect unless nobody forces a save, even me. At that point, I have weighed the situation, done juice:squeeze assessment, and decided that “wasting” that debuff was worth whatever else I decided to do. And remember, you can hit ‘em with this, then hit ‘em with something heavier next round to take advantage of this one. And MS stacks with Bane too. You can double ding ‘em for -2d4 on their save against your teammates… [insert devastating spell or ability].
Look at it this way, if we were in a duel, and I have MS, and you have VM, and we were going at it, all else being equal, which one of us is gonna walk away?
Yeah, but if nothing else, if nobody else hits it you’re giving yourself offensive support. Again, yes, that supposes you aren’t doing anything else. But it is also, if not self contained, at least self propagating. Both is better, but they both have strengths and weaknesses. I dunno, I guess I just suppose the bests defense is a strong offense. And at 11th level, 3d6 & -1d4 on a save edges out 3d4 & disadvantage on an attack because if it doesn’t rely on attacks, or if it has enough of them, it’s usefulness starts to go down compared to other actions. And if it has advantage, the best you did was nill that for one swipe. And if they already has disadvantage, ya did bubcus.
But -1d4 is a guaranteed minimum of -1 on its save against me next turn. Period. If they fail the save, the damage is higher, the secondary is guaranteed to have some effect unless nobody forces a save, even me. At that point, I have weighed the situation, done juice:squeeze assessment, and decided that “wasting” that debuff was worth whatever else I decided to do. And remember, you can hit ‘em with this, then hit ‘em with something heavier next round to take advantage of this one. And MS stacks with Bane too. You can double ding ‘em for -2d4 on their save against your teammates… [insert devastating spell or ability].
Look at it this way, if we were in a duel, and I have MS, and you have VM, and we were going at it, all else being equal, which one of us is gonna walk away?
Head to head Mind Sliver would, hands down in a PVP environment. But we're not just talking about PVP here. You explained a situation in which Mind Sliver is superior (and nobody would argue VM would be a good spell in a duel), while I gave a situation where VM was better. We can go back and forth all day about scenarios where one is better than the other.
Another point to consider is the classes that use these abilities. The classes that get Mind Sliver are going to be the ones who can follow up with big damage or big abilities. Vicious Mockery is exclusively in the Bard's toolset who don't have many damaging abilities compared to the other classes. Each spell serves a different function in the party, and as I said, it depends a lot on the playstyle and composition of the party and DM. If you have a more defensive playstyle you're going to get more out of VM; if you're more offensive you'll capitalize more on the opportunities created by MS.
I love having both, and will usually grab one or the other with Magic Initiate or multiclassing. If we have the situation under control? I absolutely use Mind Sliver. But in those moments when everything falls apart in an intense combat, the party's super low on resources, and we never know if we'll be able to set up combos between two rounds or even two players in the same round? For me, VM has saved our group far more than MS has.
I am think of changing this spell in the next game. Instead of upping the damage on level up let it hit multiple tagets like eldric blast does. So you target 5th level 2, 11th level4, and 17th level 4. Mind you a person can only have the debuff on them 1 time but can be hit for multi damage.
I am think of changing this spell in the next game. Instead of upping the damage on level up let it hit multiple tagets like eldric blast does. So you target 5th level 2, 11th level4, and 17th level 4. Mind you a person can only have the debuff on them 1 time but can be hit for multi damage.
I kinda like that idea. It would let you (as the player) just group insult the lot of em or lay into one single target with VM.
So, just to clarify if I have this right:
Each insult (or use of Vicious Mockery) would be a number of D4's equal to the level already assigned and you can target 4 different people (dealing 1D4 and imposing disadvantage on their next melee attack each;
Or stack the insults on a single target (dealing all (or some) 4d4 damage and imposing disadvantage on that targets next melee attack). <and/or vary the stack so that one target takes 3d4 and another 1d4 (but always only have disadvantage that one time on their 1st attack)?
That does kinda make its usefulness increase without making it OP. The whole "imposing disadvantage" thing on 4 different targets might be considered reaching into OP territory, but it only works on the 1st melee attack (to which higher CR melee enemies often have multi-attacks anyways) and it would deal such negligible damage when used on 4 different targets that it becomes more of a tactical choice on how to stack the damage die.
I would say this idea would be a far better version and open a lot more potential for it being used tactically rather than as a last resort sort of thing.
We should have mind sliver but Tasha’s has kind of helped this out IMHO.
I think the custom race is OP and we don’t play with it but we do allow the custom lineage or whatever it’s called that allows you to switch around the ability scores of for the races.
This lets me pick High Elf, move the 2 from int to cha and keep the 1 in dex or move it to con based on my rolls. By doing this I can pick up a wizard cantrip and I will almost always choose Mind Sliver. The rider is perfect for use and psychic damage on an int save is amazing. Yeah it’s on 1d6 but on average it’s only 2 damage less than a fire bolt and I’d bet it hits more.
In my current campaign I had god like rolls (18,17,16,13, 9,7) so I can easily grab 3 feats (res will for sure be one) I’ve considered magic initiate but honestly I’d probably grab shape water and some other utility spell over toll the dead. Plus I think I’d rather add two spells (misty step and dissonant whispers) for free given all the cool spells we have access to but only 24 (lore) known. Our sustained is a little low right now at lvl 3 but it should pick up I just don’t see the point in using a resource to grab a cantrip that will only do 5.5-6.5 damage per cantrip lvl when I already have a great one that does 3.5 per level
Is it worth taking a damage cantrip on a High Elf if you're not boosting intelligence?
All High Elf cantrips are Wizard spells so key off intelligence and Bards are pimping charisma.
Vicious Mockery is a waste of an action past about level 3. That's been my experience as a Bard. It's fun, but horrid mechanically. You could fix this issue in a variety of ways - and it's an issue for the class, I think.
1) You could let Bards add Charisma Bonus to the damage for Vicious Mockery. 2) You could up the damage to 1d6. That would make it decently scalable.
3) You could have it hit multiple targets? Something like Acid Splash, but with insults. :P
3) Or you could let Bards have something like Lesser Magical Secrets at a lower level - pick one cantrip from any class and it's a Bard cantrip for you. This could be a Lore Bard specialty, or simply a thing any Bard gets at 1st level (which would give you some variety out of the gates).
I am playing a Rogue Arcane Trickster that is L9 but started taking Bard levels after that. I just leveled up to Bard L2 and realized that for all of the sessions I was at Bard L1 I never once used Vicious Mockery. At this point with the damage I can do with Sneak Attack, or given the utility of some of my spells, it is hard to justify using my Action on it. Seemed like a shame though because it is such a quintessential Bard feature, IMO. Throwing out some ridiculous insults can add to the RP. So I proposed this to my DM and he allowed it—Vicious Mockery can be substituted for an instance of Bardic Inspiration. That way it is a Bonus Action and I can find spots to work it in from time to time. Of course my Bonus Actions as a Rogue/Bard are often spoken for, but it is such a fun cantrip I am going to be sure and use it this way on occasion. I am sure not every DM would agree to these terms but it is a pretty reasonable way to keep it relevant at higher levels, IMO.
I am playing a Rogue Arcane Trickster that is L9 but started taking Bard levels after that. I just leveled up to Bard L2 and realized that for all of the sessions I was at Bard L1 I never once used Vicious Mockery. At this point with the damage I can do with Sneak Attack, or given the utility of some of my spells, it is hard to justify using my Action on it. Seemed like a shame though because it is such a quintessential Bard feature, IMO. Throwing out some ridiculous insults can add to the RP. So I proposed this to my DM and he allowed it—Vicious Mockery can be substituted for an instance of Bardic Inspiration. That way it is a Bonus Action and I can find spots to work it in from time to time. Of course my Bonus Actions as a Rogue/Bard are often spoken for, but it is such a fun cantrip I am going to be sure and use it this way on occasion. I am sure not every DM would agree to these terms but it is a pretty reasonable way to keep it relevant at higher levels, IMO.
Vicious mockery has its niche, when one’s offensive and defensive capabilities against a target all a bit “meh,” a slightly more “meh” option that does both isn’t bad to have. It’s just that Rogues always have a better offensive option since Sneak Attack is A-Tier DPR (S-Tier when you can force OAs). Most Bards don’t have anything even close, and the ones that do are limited by their Cha bonuses/short rest. Bards are usually much, much better suited to being the characters that get to take all the really cool, niche spells that can do crazy stuff, but often get overlooked by other casters.
When everyone else is taking cordon of arrows, darkness, flaming sphere, hold person, shatter, or invisibility; the Bard gets to take enthrall or detect thoughts instead. So while the others are furtively whispering about how the heck they’re gonna possibly kill all those orcs without raising an alarm, the bard strides right out into the open and starts telling the most compelling story ever. Once the others have wiped the 😳 from their faces, they can “sneak” up and slit all those Orc throats with a [item]small knife[/spell]. While the others are failing (badly) to play Clue about who the assassin is, the Bard can point to Col Mustard and say “He did it, and he used a wrench.”
If by some strange twist of fate somebody let me choose a feat and I got the benefits in real life it would be MI for Mage Hand, Prestidigitation and Unseen Servant. That would be perfect.
Er, anyway, back to bard cantrips. The problem is Bards don't really have much in the way of offensive cantrips - because they're not really designed as the main damage dealer, they're mostly controllers. The only two choices are Thunderclap (TC) or Vicious Mockery (VM). TC is not bad, it affects all enemies within 5 ft and does 1d6, but it's a Con save which enemies often get a lot of so it's more highly resisted and the save-or-suck often-resisted cantrip will dwindle as you level, and the 5 ft "all creatures" (including allies) will quite quickly become not worth it. You're a 1d8 spellchucker with minimal defenses, bar one or two higher subclass level features, dafluff you goin' to melee for and for such a piddly cantrip?
VM on the other hand, is more useful. It's not saved as often, being Wisdom and it's got a tidy 60 ft range, which is fine 'nuff, against most enemies. Sure the 1d4 isn't a lot. But as been said, you're not the damage-dealing guy. So it's that disadvantage to next attack you want. Besides against a commoner, who has only 4 hit points, +0 Wis save and +2 to hit, you could, most probably, be able to just there and insult then to death as they're unable to hit you. Most enemies you start facing won't have many hit points and usually only have one attack - so the damage is OK and that disadvantage could be a life-saver. Even when enemies get multiattack, that disadvantage to one of them might cause a miss and save you/an ally. Unlike TC, VM combos well with other spells like Bane : -1d4 and disadvantage to one attack? That's a decent nerf to an enemy and could make a big difference.
The only other option is a physical weapon, which will likely be one-handed and so 1d8, no scaling and no secondary effect and you, as a squishy spellslinger, need to be in melee.
Of the three, it's VM all the way. And it's the most bard-like. It's mental, vocal, creative and controlling. It's pure bard, all the way.
With a starting feat, though, I could possibly consider taking Mind Sliver using MI. It's still somewhat bard-ish and that -1d4 to next save is so sweet when your control spells are the save-or-suck kind. Sure, again, there are others that deal more damage like the trusty Fire Bolt - but, if I'm picking a bard why give a shit? I never pick bard to "do damage", I pick it to use my spells and features to play my enemies like notes in a song.
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Vicious Mockery might suck, but who cares? You're insulting someone to death.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
There's the rub, eh? Bards have two damaging cantrips on their spell list: Vicious Mockery and Thunderclap. The only other cantrips with combat application are True Strike and Blade Ward. If you're playing a caster primarily, getting other cantrips can be expensive (feats or Magical secrets.)
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I fear i don't understand your point? Yes, if i would play bards, which i almost never do, it would annoy me that there are only two damage cantrips and one of them almost unusable for a bard which should usaully stay far behind other people and even worse targets CON. Sure that is not the best part of being a bard, but a big part of that game is taking the attack action also in fights where you should not waste spell slots and then this is the thing you do very often especially in dungeon crawls or games with long days. So i would love they would offer some variety for bards? I mean you could reflavor toll the dead as a disharmonic sound instead of a bell with grave power?
And I agree true strike and blade ward exist. I thinkt that is the nicest that can be said about that completly useless spells? I would love if Wizards would errata that spells away not to trick new players to choose them by mistake or make them usefull somehow. For example they could scale like other cantrips and make it usefull. At level 5 you and another person have advantage, ending up at you and 3 other people have advantage. Which would be great for a party with Rogues or Paladins and would give the Bard a good option for his turn withouth attacking? As the new kobold can only to that proficency times a day it is probably to strong.
Well, the original question I was responding to was looking at Bardic options as they currently exist. Cybermind did a great response to that idea, more thorough than I got into.
Your complaint is that Bards need access to other cantrips to offer more variety. That's not unreasonable, though which cantrips to offer is probably a matter of debate.
We should have mind sliver but Tasha’s has kind of helped this out IMHO.
I think the custom race is OP and we don’t play with it but we do allow the custom lineage or whatever it’s called that allows you to switch around the ability scores of for the races.
This lets me pick High Elf, move the 2 from int to cha and keep the 1 in dex or move it to con based on my rolls. By doing this I can pick up a wizard cantrip and I will almost always choose Mind Sliver. The rider is perfect for use and psychic damage on an int save is amazing. Yeah it’s on 1d6 but on average it’s only 2 damage less than a fire bolt and I’d bet it hits more.
In my current campaign I had god like rolls (18,17,16,13, 9,7) so I can easily grab 3 feats (res will for sure be one) I’ve considered magic initiate but honestly I’d probably grab shape water and some other utility spell over toll the dead. Plus I think I’d rather add two spells (misty step and dissonant whispers) for free given all the cool spells we have access to but only 24 (lore) known. Our sustained is a little low right now at lvl 3 but it should pick up I just don’t see the point in using a resource to grab a cantrip that will only do 5.5-6.5 damage per cantrip lvl when I already have a great one that does 3.5 per level
You are absolutely right. However, the defensive benefits of VM are Situational, so if the target has Multiattack or non-attack actions as alternatives then VM’s benefit is reduced. But you can almost always coordinate with a party mate to 1-2 something by setting it up with MS so the second PC can hit ‘em with something that can benefit from the reduced saving throw. So while also technically situational, that situation is at least something the players/characters can create for themselves.
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See. This is one of the lies spread. It is not Reduced. You are still getting the same benefit. And potentially blocking one attack. That does not change even with multi attack. it still potentially reduces the danger of a multi attack enemy by being one less hit from the enemy.
Also. Mind Sliver is just as situational. Your banking on some effect targeting the enemy to take advantage of it's extra affect against save attacks. which may not always happen. It may do something like move out of range or only get hit with to hit attacks. Your not accomplishing alot if you hit it with mind sliver and the only save attack it takes after that is mind sliver which it probably had a decent to good chance of failing anyway on many enemies.
You are correct, I misspoke. The benefit of VM isn’t “reduced” at all, (Xd4 damage and disadvantage on their next attack) = (Xd4 damage and disadvantage on their next attack) regardless of the situation. What I should have said is that against certain enemies, the value is reduced wen compared to the alternatives of what else one might do on their turn instead of VM. Especially by the third tier of play when a PC has so many more options available to them. Because if the enemy has a bagillion HP and either 3+ attacks or an action that forces Saves instead of attacking, VM will benefit the party less than it would if the critter had twice as many HP but only a 1-2 attacks.
Conversely, at higher levels of play the party can reasonably expect to be dealing with higher CR threats. Those threats often have high Constitution and possibly proficiency in Con Saves too. So spells or class features the other party casters might have found highly effective at lower levels now not so much. Or maybe a new spell or class feature turns out to be far less effective than expected because everything keeps making their Con saves. By coordinating a 1-2 with the Bard using Mind Sliver, the party as a whole can become better. And it works just as well for the other 5 save types too, so it can potentially could help anybody get something past a save.
When my one Bard (7th level) hit a Wight with Mind Sliver, it legitimately was the difference between that Wight successfully saving against the Cleric’s Turn Undead or not. Heck, there have been times that VM would have been far more useful than MS, and I lamented not having it. My other Bard (also 7th level) has VM and uses it at times to great affect. (Although Honestly, both Bards use Chill Touch as their primary damage cantrip.)
I am of the opinion that MS has more potential usefulness than VM. Some groups will obviously get far more mileage out of MS than other groups will. It all comes down to the party’s composition and the players’ creative and inclination towards coordinating their efforts each turn. If everyone does Attacks and nobility forces Saves, then MS is absolutely useless to that party. If players don’t communicate and coordinate their PCs’ actions then MS will only be sporadically beneficial at best. If instead the party is competent and knowledgeable about each other’s capabilities; and the players consider that stuff when leveling they make their decisions prioritizing overall group effectiveness over personal power. That group will likely still find uses for MS well into Epic levels.
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Your experience with Mind Sliver. Others have had this experience with phsycial attacks. Even on multiattacking enemies. Where something that does multiple devestating blows has been stopped form killing party members because one of those blows turned into a miss from disadvantage.
This is why I say one is not better than the other. the reality is that the Value is not diminished as you make it seem. Sure in white room mathematics it seems like those other three attacks are going to more than make up for missing one. But a multi attacking enemy can be suddenly a lot more managable just because it's missing a few of it's attacks. not all of it's attacks. Just a few. This is a scenario that has been run into as many times as your going to find people saved or Enemies weakened because of Mind Sliver.
They do two seperate things and neither one is more valuable because they serve seperate purposes in seperate scenario's. The Best Bards? They Are going to find uses for and potentially make life saving plays with both. And they may get little recognition from either from a decent amount of the player base because they didn't make the life saving heal or the Killing Blow. Even though that may have only been possible because of them. That's the reality of both of these abilities.
Except mindsliver is just better vicious mockery. sure vicious mockery imposing disadv is decent and the flavor is cool. Mindsliver tho imposes a negative 1d4 the next save, and does 1d6, and its an int save which is better than wisdom. the -1d4 also really helps since a lot of good spells are saves, like fireball, or lightning bolt. hell i think bards should just take Sorcerer magic initiate at lvl 4(or be human variant) for it and grab the Blade cantrips bc they go soo well with the college of swords. even can grab mage armor and use it.
This is not true. They both affect different kinds of things. And are useful in different situations.
Something that gives disadvantage on attack rolls but does nothing to saves is situtaionally worse than one thta does something to saves. But the opposite is also true. Something that does something to saves but nothing to attack rolls is situationally worse to anything that is making attack rolls. One is not better than the other. Your applying biased weight to the one that your choosing to support.
I've played characters with VM, MS, and both (through multiclassing)
In my experience, VM is better against melee targets and MS is better against spellcasters, but there are a LOT of factors to consider. It heavily depends on the initiative order, party composition, and how the players and enemies are positioned.
For VM, being able to pose disadvantage on an attack can prevent a critical that would down another player or make the attack miss entirely. It's much better to use than MS if the target you're using it on goes before the person that would blast it with a saving throw spell. It's a far more clutch spell than MS is in that situation because it's no good setting up someone to deliver big on their next spell attack and they go down before they can get the spell off. If you're immediately before an enemy that can hit hard in the turn order, VM is usually the better option.
MS is great against spellcasters because concentration checks are constitution saving throws, and technically it would apply to death saving throws as well, if that ever happens at your table. It's great to be able to set up for someone else or yourself to do big damage on their next turn, but a lot can change in a round and by the time it comes back around to your turn, you might have to heal or do something else and perhaps the target didn't get hit with anything that required a saving throw. Another big advantage for MS comes around in that it might force a monster to burn a legendary resistance when you or your teammate hit it with something later in the turn or in the next. It also pairs extremely well with Quickened Spell.
I guess to me, the main difference between VM and MS is that VM is self contained while MS needs to be part of a combo. If a creature gets hit with VM, then how much of an affect it has is determined by the creature. They either have to attack with disadvantage, not attack at all, or use something that requires a saving throw. Either way you're limiting their options. MS requires another party member, an entire round of combat, or Quickened metamagic to reach its full potential.
VM is self contained defensive support while MS is offensive support that relies on another turn or another player. Both are great, but they require different situations to get the most out of them. Vicious Mockery has been more flexible for me than Mind Sliver has in the games I've played, but any of the factors that swing the balance one way or the other can easily be negated or strengthened by how the DM plays, the world you're in, the type of monsters you're facing, etc.
Yeah, but if nothing else, if nobody else hits it you’re giving yourself offensive support. Again, yes, that supposes you aren’t doing anything else. But it is also, if not self contained, at least self propagating. Both is better, but they both have strengths and weaknesses. I dunno, I guess I just suppose the bests defense is a strong offense. And at 11th level, 3d6 & -1d4 on a save edges out 3d4 & disadvantage on an attack because if it doesn’t rely on attacks, or if it has enough of them, it’s usefulness starts to go down compared to other actions. And if it has advantage, the best you did was nill that for one swipe. And if they already has disadvantage, ya did bubcus.
But -1d4 is a guaranteed minimum of -1 on its save against me next turn. Period. If they fail the save, the damage is higher, the secondary is guaranteed to have some effect unless nobody forces a save, even me. At that point, I have weighed the situation, done juice:squeeze assessment, and decided that “wasting” that debuff was worth whatever else I decided to do. And remember, you can hit ‘em with this, then hit ‘em with something heavier next round to take advantage of this one. And MS stacks with Bane too. You can double ding ‘em for -2d4 on their save against your teammates… [insert devastating spell or ability].
Look at it this way, if we were in a duel, and I have MS, and you have VM, and we were going at it, all else being equal, which one of us is gonna walk away?
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Head to head Mind Sliver would, hands down in a PVP environment. But we're not just talking about PVP here. You explained a situation in which Mind Sliver is superior (and nobody would argue VM would be a good spell in a duel), while I gave a situation where VM was better. We can go back and forth all day about scenarios where one is better than the other.
Another point to consider is the classes that use these abilities. The classes that get Mind Sliver are going to be the ones who can follow up with big damage or big abilities. Vicious Mockery is exclusively in the Bard's toolset who don't have many damaging abilities compared to the other classes. Each spell serves a different function in the party, and as I said, it depends a lot on the playstyle and composition of the party and DM. If you have a more defensive playstyle you're going to get more out of VM; if you're more offensive you'll capitalize more on the opportunities created by MS.
I love having both, and will usually grab one or the other with Magic Initiate or multiclassing. If we have the situation under control? I absolutely use Mind Sliver. But in those moments when everything falls apart in an intense combat, the party's super low on resources, and we never know if we'll be able to set up combos between two rounds or even two players in the same round? For me, VM has saved our group far more than MS has.
I am think of changing this spell in the next game. Instead of upping the damage on level up let it hit multiple tagets like eldric blast does. So you target 5th level 2, 11th level4, and 17th level 4. Mind you a person can only have the debuff on them 1 time but can be hit for multi damage.
I spell Goodly.
I kinda like that idea. It would let you (as the player) just group insult the lot of em or lay into one single target with VM.
So, just to clarify if I have this right:
Each insult (or use of Vicious Mockery) would be a number of D4's equal to the level already assigned and you can target 4 different people (dealing 1D4 and imposing disadvantage on their next melee attack each;
Or stack the insults on a single target (dealing all (or some) 4d4 damage and imposing disadvantage on that targets next melee attack). <and/or vary the stack so that one target takes 3d4 and another 1d4 (but always only have disadvantage that one time on their 1st attack)?
That does kinda make its usefulness increase without making it OP. The whole "imposing disadvantage" thing on 4 different targets might be considered reaching into OP territory, but it only works on the 1st melee attack (to which higher CR melee enemies often have multi-attacks anyways) and it would deal such negligible damage when used on 4 different targets that it becomes more of a tactical choice on how to stack the damage die.
I would say this idea would be a far better version and open a lot more potential for it being used tactically rather than as a last resort sort of thing.
Is it worth taking a damage cantrip on a High Elf if you're not boosting intelligence?
All High Elf cantrips are Wizard spells so key off intelligence and Bards are pimping charisma.
Vicious Mockery is a waste of an action past about level 3. That's been my experience as a Bard. It's fun, but horrid mechanically. You could fix this issue in a variety of ways - and it's an issue for the class, I think.
1) You could let Bards add Charisma Bonus to the damage for Vicious Mockery.
2) You could up the damage to 1d6. That would make it decently scalable.
3) You could have it hit multiple targets? Something like Acid Splash, but with insults. :P
3) Or you could let Bards have something like Lesser Magical Secrets at a lower level - pick one cantrip from any class and it's a Bard cantrip for you. This could be a Lore Bard specialty, or simply a thing any Bard gets at 1st level (which would give you some variety out of the gates).
I am playing a Rogue Arcane Trickster that is L9 but started taking Bard levels after that. I just leveled up to Bard L2 and realized that for all of the sessions I was at Bard L1 I never once used Vicious Mockery. At this point with the damage I can do with Sneak Attack, or given the utility of some of my spells, it is hard to justify using my Action on it. Seemed like a shame though because it is such a quintessential Bard feature, IMO. Throwing out some ridiculous insults can add to the RP. So I proposed this to my DM and he allowed it—Vicious Mockery can be substituted for an instance of Bardic Inspiration. That way it is a Bonus Action and I can find spots to work it in from time to time. Of course my Bonus Actions as a Rogue/Bard are often spoken for, but it is such a fun cantrip I am going to be sure and use it this way on occasion. I am sure not every DM would agree to these terms but it is a pretty reasonable way to keep it relevant at higher levels, IMO.
Vicious mockery has its niche, when one’s offensive and defensive capabilities against a target all a bit “meh,” a slightly more “meh” option that does both isn’t bad to have. It’s just that Rogues always have a better offensive option since Sneak Attack is A-Tier DPR (S-Tier when you can force OAs). Most Bards don’t have anything even close, and the ones that do are limited by their Cha bonuses/short rest. Bards are usually much, much better suited to being the characters that get to take all the really cool, niche spells that can do crazy stuff, but often get overlooked by other casters.
When everyone else is taking cordon of arrows, darkness, flaming sphere, hold person, shatter, or invisibility; the Bard gets to take enthrall or detect thoughts instead. So while the others are furtively whispering about how the heck they’re gonna possibly kill all those orcs without raising an alarm, the bard strides right out into the open and starts telling the most compelling story ever. Once the others have wiped the 😳 from their faces, they can “sneak” up and slit all those Orc throats with a [item]small knife[/spell]. While the others are failing (badly) to play Clue about who the assassin is, the Bard can point to Col Mustard and say “He did it, and he used a wrench.”
But when the party is getting curb-stomped by the tarrasque, shouting “Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries!” might just be the exact thing that keeps the Bard alive ‘til the end.
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