One of my friends wants to run a level 11 game that'll go to 20, so we're making characters for that. I want to run a melee-oriented life domain cleric wielding a greatclub.
The conundrum is that I want to both provide strong healing and deal solid melee damage. Healer helps save on spell slots (I'm expecting frequent dungeon runs, this DM favors those) and Magic Initiate would allow me to grab booming blade to pair with Divine Strike. However, I can't fit both because I'm planning to take Resilient (Con) as a variant human for concentration checks and I want to get both Str and Wis to 20, both getting to 16 using point buy. Which of the two feats would outweigh the other in usefulness? Should I instead forgo a Str ASI to get both and hope for a belt of giant strength?
EDIT: I've contacted my DM, and the optional rules in TCoE are allowed. However, I'm not swapping out Divine Strike due to it scaling upwards at a later level.
I’d not worry about str. And I’d take warcaster instead of resilient con. I know there’s lots who prefer it the other way, I just find warcaster to be more useful, personal preference type thing.
And you didn’t ask, but also, consider tempest or forge domains if you want to be more effective in melee. Your healing won’t be as good (still good, just not as good) but either of them have powers that make you much better in melee. I played a tempest through level 14, maxed wis, and just got str high enough to wear the heavy armor. I almost never bothered with my weapon. Starting at level 11, you’ll have plenty of spells, and likely find them more effective than a weapon.
I've been considering Warcaster over Resilient, it offers a much stronger offensive presence over the latter, especially when paired with MI for a reaction BB. I initially picked Res to both bump Con up from 13 to 14 and gain the +4 prof bonus, which altogether mathematically matches the advantage granted by WC while simultaneously helping with keeping me alive.
AFAIK, taking MI and WC offers quite a lot in terms of damage output, especially after upcasting spiritual weapon. At 14th level, 6th level SW does 5d8+mod; essentially a single-target fireball as a bonus action attack, repeatable every round for a minute and without concentration. Casting BB on the same target does about the same after Divine Strike. If something triggers an AoO, BB does WD+2d8+mod and 3d8 more immediately due to the target moving. And all of this comes before factoring a beneficial domain!
It is very much up to you. You want to be a strong healer and to deal strong melee damage but it is a trade off so it depends which point of the balance you want to be. Booming blade and extra strength increase your damage while healer helps
Strength v Booming blade
I hadn't thought of booming blase on a cleric but it does look a very strong option. Comparing 18 str annd booming blade vs 20 str without at level 11.:
With booming blade you are +8 to hit for 4d8+4 damage (1 from the club, 2 from booming blade and 1 from divine strike) (average 22) and another 13.5 if they decide to move.
With ASI strength you are +9 to hit for 2d8+5 damage (average 14) so unless the AC of the monsther is something ridicula like 28 you will be doing more damage with booming blade, however strength will also come in useful for things like athletics checks and saving throws.
Warcaster v Resiliant Con
At level 11 +4 to your concentration checks is roughly the same as advantage. At level 13 when your proficiency bonus goes to +5 it is strictly better. Which is right for your depends on your character concept and your DM rulings.
Warcaster would allow you to use booming blade on op attacks (or any other spell but if you are wanting ot keep spell slots and use a melee weapon I think that it what you would use it for) so depending on how often you get op attacks it will increase your damage output.
Resiliant con will come in handy for the reasonably common con saves with nothing to do with concentration, for example resisting poison, or avoiding exhaustion. As it is a half feat it may also allow you to improve an ability score elsewhere while keepping the same Con compared to taking warcaster.
Where it gets tricky is your use of a spell focus. You wont have a shield so you will need a hand to cast most of your spells (booming blade is OK as the club is the component as are spells with only a voice component). Will your DM allow you you have your spell fous on a chain so you can pick it up (object interaction) cast your spell and then drop the focus for free while it remains on your person? If not you are left with your spell focus in one hand so you can not use your club to attack as an op attack for the next round. Most DMs I know would not have an issue with something like this but I lot of posters swear by the value of warcaster on the basis of avoiding object interaction.
As far as spell foci go, clerics are probably the best. Holy symbols can be a handheld reliquary, a worn amulet or an emblem on your clothes or shield; all normal foci for other classes must be held. The ruling on two-handed weapons and spellcasting lets you continue to hold the weapon in one hand as you cast with the other, pulling out your materials or handheld focus as part of the casting if needed, while a worn focus need only be openly visible (a hand is still needed for somantic components).
The advantage of Warcaster here is that you can wave your occupied hands for somantics (weapon and shield), whereas you'd otherwise still need a free hand in case you wanted to cast a somantic, non-material spell, forcing you to drop your weapon and pick it up afterwards with the object interaction free action. It's annoying, but it only truly becomes a problem if there's an interaction that would make it so (i.e. fighting in a waist-deep river, so the club is carried off in the current).
I suggest going Arcana Domain to pick up Booming Blade for free and if you are not opposed to multiclassing then taking a 2 level Ranger dip to pick up Druidic Warrior to gain access to Shillelagh. Doing this lets you bypass the STR requirements to attack. If you do not wish to multiclass you can always grab Shillelagh through Magic Initiate.
Why does everyone want to change the character concept completely. The OP wants to play a humal life domain cleric and was asking about feats / ASIs. He doesn't want ot change race to domain or multi-class. Half tyhe suggestions are optional rules we fdon't even know if they are allowed anyway.
I appreciate the defense, but I'm not against most suggestions. A race with +2/+1 makes getting 16/16/14 easier and may come with the parts of feats I'd want; same with the class archetype. Tempest and War domains provide stronger martial options in warhammers with shields and mauls, the Arcana domain and High Elf race can get booming blade, and the Nature domain nets shillelagh as a cleric spell, which eases the material component usage and Strength investment.
I do intend to not multiclass this character, though. Diverting levels to other classes delays the cleric spell progression, which I want to avoid.
I appreciate the defense, but I'm not against most suggestions. A race with +2/+1 makes getting 16/16/14 easier and may come with the parts of feats I'd want; same with the class archetype. Tempest and War domains provide stronger martial options in warhammers with shields and mauls, the Arcana domain and High Elf race can get booming blade, and the Nature domain nets shillelagh as a cleric spell, which eases the material component usage and Strength investment.
I do intend to not multiclass this character, though. Diverting levels to other classes delays the cleric spell progression, which I want to avoid.
A quarterstaff held in two hands is mechanically identical to a greatclub (weapons in 5e are really dumb), so Shillelagh is good to have. But you don't have to give up Life domain to get it: Magic Initiate can do that for you. For your first-level spell, grab Goodberry and abuse the official ruling that Disciple of Life ability applies to each Goodberry to quadruple your healing output (how does 40hp per first-level slot sound?). This eases your Strength restrictions (you'll still want enough to trudge around in full plate, though), and makes healing more economical. Note that you can only use the Healer feat once per creature per rest, and it doesn't benefit from your Life domain bonus, so this is probably a good way to go.
I've done Clericberry on other characters, and I can confirm that 40 HP of healing off a 1st-level spell feels pretty busted. For those setups, it was primarily a sorcerer with 1 cleric and either 1 druid or 2 ranger dips for Font of Magic's slot rearranging, Disciple of Life and goodberry.
To be honest, I don't think it'd be good for my team to become complacent from always having a bajillion HP of berries in my back pocket. The last group I used one in grew used to having them, took many more risks than they ought to have and got themselves TPKed on the one session I couldn't make it to. Granted, only doing it 1/day isn't bad, but at level 11+ it'll only go so far.
RAW, it also has a weakness: a creature needs to use its own action to eat a berry, making it bad to use in combat due to the action economy AND a character can't use it on another. A downed character is often in no position to eat (they're unconscious), while the potion of healing and healer's kit clearly point out using them on other characters.
Moon sickle's bonus healing only applies when a spell is cast that heals, whereas goodberry restores hit points upon spending an action to consume a berry, so the timing is off; comparable to Draconic Bloodline sorcerer's Elemental Affinity and dragon's breath ("whenever you use a spell" vs "when you cast a spell"). Also, the sickle is exclusive to druids and rangers.
I have no intentions of multiclassing this character, so without PAM or shillelagh from a feat or domain, quarterstaffs and greatclubs are mechanically identical (going for Nature domain is better here for using a shield's emblem as a focus for +2 AC). Flavor-wise, I figured the character wouldn't be afraid to crack a few skulls if needed, so the extra heft of the greatclub feels better in hand for such a task.
Comparing a cleric's Divine Strike attack to casting a cantrip, the two are actually numerically comparable with Divine Strike making attacks come online a little earlier than cantrip scaling (sacred flame's 2d8 to attack's 1d8+mod at 5th, 2d8 vs 2d8+mod at 7th, etc. to 4d8 vs 3d8+mod at 17th). Attack rolls have a chance to crit, while saves do not. Not only that, but notably powerful foes can outright choose to not fail a save or be flat-out immune to most spells, making the weapon attack even better.
One of my friends wants to run a level 11 game that'll go to 20, so we're making characters for that. I want to run a melee-oriented life domain cleric wielding a greatclub.
The conundrum is that I want to both provide strong healing and deal solid melee damage. Healer helps save on spell slots (I'm expecting frequent dungeon runs, this DM favors those) and Magic Initiate would allow me to grab booming blade to pair with Divine Strike. However, I can't fit both because I'm planning to take Resilient (Con) as a variant human for concentration checks and I want to get both Str and Wis to 20, both getting to 16 using point buy. Which of the two feats would outweigh the other in usefulness? Should I instead forgo a Str ASI to get both and hope for a belt of giant strength?
EDIT: I've contacted my DM, and the optional rules in TCoE are allowed. However, I'm not swapping out Divine Strike due to it scaling upwards at a later level.
I’d not worry about str. And I’d take warcaster instead of resilient con. I know there’s lots who prefer it the other way, I just find warcaster to be more useful, personal preference type thing.
And you didn’t ask, but also, consider tempest or forge domains if you want to be more effective in melee. Your healing won’t be as good (still good, just not as good) but either of them have powers that make you much better in melee.
I played a tempest through level 14, maxed wis, and just got str high enough to wear the heavy armor. I almost never bothered with my weapon. Starting at level 11, you’ll have plenty of spells, and likely find them more effective than a weapon.
I've been considering Warcaster over Resilient, it offers a much stronger offensive presence over the latter, especially when paired with MI for a reaction BB. I initially picked Res to both bump Con up from 13 to 14 and gain the +4 prof bonus, which altogether mathematically matches the advantage granted by WC while simultaneously helping with keeping me alive.
AFAIK, taking MI and WC offers quite a lot in terms of damage output, especially after upcasting spiritual weapon. At 14th level, 6th level SW does 5d8+mod; essentially a single-target fireball as a bonus action attack, repeatable every round for a minute and without concentration. Casting BB on the same target does about the same after Divine Strike. If something triggers an AoO, BB does WD+2d8+mod and 3d8 more immediately due to the target moving. And all of this comes before factoring a beneficial domain!
It is very much up to you. You want to be a strong healer and to deal strong melee damage but it is a trade off so it depends which point of the balance you want to be. Booming blade and extra strength increase your damage while healer helps
Strength v Booming blade
I hadn't thought of booming blase on a cleric but it does look a very strong option. Comparing 18 str annd booming blade vs 20 str without at level 11.:
With booming blade you are +8 to hit for 4d8+4 damage (1 from the club, 2 from booming blade and 1 from divine strike) (average 22) and another 13.5 if they decide to move.
With ASI strength you are +9 to hit for 2d8+5 damage (average 14) so unless the AC of the monsther is something ridicula like 28 you will be doing more damage with booming blade, however strength will also come in useful for things like athletics checks and saving throws.
Warcaster v Resiliant Con
At level 11 +4 to your concentration checks is roughly the same as advantage. At level 13 when your proficiency bonus goes to +5 it is strictly better. Which is right for your depends on your character concept and your DM rulings.
Warcaster would allow you to use booming blade on op attacks (or any other spell but if you are wanting ot keep spell slots and use a melee weapon I think that it what you would use it for) so depending on how often you get op attacks it will increase your damage output.
Resiliant con will come in handy for the reasonably common con saves with nothing to do with concentration, for example resisting poison, or avoiding exhaustion. As it is a half feat it may also allow you to improve an ability score elsewhere while keepping the same Con compared to taking warcaster.
Where it gets tricky is your use of a spell focus. You wont have a shield so you will need a hand to cast most of your spells (booming blade is OK as the club is the component as are spells with only a voice component). Will your DM allow you you have your spell fous on a chain so you can pick it up (object interaction) cast your spell and then drop the focus for free while it remains on your person? If not you are left with your spell focus in one hand so you can not use your club to attack as an op attack for the next round. Most DMs I know would not have an issue with something like this but I lot of posters swear by the value of warcaster on the basis of avoiding object interaction.
As far as spell foci go, clerics are probably the best. Holy symbols can be a handheld reliquary, a worn amulet or an emblem on your clothes or shield; all normal foci for other classes must be held. The ruling on two-handed weapons and spellcasting lets you continue to hold the weapon in one hand as you cast with the other, pulling out your materials or handheld focus as part of the casting if needed, while a worn focus need only be openly visible (a hand is still needed for somantic components).
The advantage of Warcaster here is that you can wave your occupied hands for somantics (weapon and shield), whereas you'd otherwise still need a free hand in case you wanted to cast a somantic, non-material spell, forcing you to drop your weapon and pick it up afterwards with the object interaction free action. It's annoying, but it only truly becomes a problem if there's an interaction that would make it so (i.e. fighting in a waist-deep river, so the club is carried off in the current).
I suggest going Arcana Domain to pick up Booming Blade for free and if you are not opposed to multiclassing then taking a 2 level Ranger dip to pick up Druidic Warrior to gain access to Shillelagh. Doing this lets you bypass the STR requirements to attack. If you do not wish to multiclass you can always grab Shillelagh through Magic Initiate.
If you take a High Elf as your character (switching the +2/+1 bonuses to strength and wisdom) you can take Booming Blade as his known Wizard spell.
I prefer Tempest Domain myself though.
Why does everyone want to change the character concept completely. The OP wants to play a humal life domain cleric and was asking about feats / ASIs. He doesn't want ot change race to domain or multi-class. Half tyhe suggestions are optional rules we fdon't even know if they are allowed anyway.
I appreciate the defense, but I'm not against most suggestions. A race with +2/+1 makes getting 16/16/14 easier and may come with the parts of feats I'd want; same with the class archetype. Tempest and War domains provide stronger martial options in warhammers with shields and mauls, the Arcana domain and High Elf race can get booming blade, and the Nature domain nets shillelagh as a cleric spell, which eases the material component usage and Strength investment.
I do intend to not multiclass this character, though. Diverting levels to other classes delays the cleric spell progression, which I want to avoid.
A quarterstaff held in two hands is mechanically identical to a greatclub (weapons in 5e are really dumb), so Shillelagh is good to have. But you don't have to give up Life domain to get it: Magic Initiate can do that for you. For your first-level spell, grab Goodberry and abuse the official ruling that Disciple of Life ability applies to each Goodberry to quadruple your healing output (how does 40hp per first-level slot sound?). This eases your Strength restrictions (you'll still want enough to trudge around in full plate, though), and makes healing more economical. Note that you can only use the Healer feat once per creature per rest, and it doesn't benefit from your Life domain bonus, so this is probably a good way to go.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
I've done Clericberry on other characters, and I can confirm that 40 HP of healing off a 1st-level spell feels pretty busted. For those setups, it was primarily a sorcerer with 1 cleric and either 1 druid or 2 ranger dips for Font of Magic's slot rearranging, Disciple of Life and goodberry.
To be honest, I don't think it'd be good for my team to become complacent from always having a bajillion HP of berries in my back pocket. The last group I used one in grew used to having them, took many more risks than they ought to have and got themselves TPKed on the one session I couldn't make it to. Granted, only doing it 1/day isn't bad, but at level 11+ it'll only go so far.
RAW, it also has a weakness: a creature needs to use its own action to eat a berry, making it bad to use in combat due to the action economy AND a character can't use it on another. A downed character is often in no position to eat (they're unconscious), while the potion of healing and healer's kit clearly point out using them on other characters.
Just pointing out Goodberry is even better now with magic item support - the Moon Sickle in Tasha's should apply to it just like the Life Domain does.
But, like... why do you want to wield a greatclub anyway? You could just murder your enemies with cantrips instead, and probably do a lot better.
Moon sickle's bonus healing only applies when a spell is cast that heals, whereas goodberry restores hit points upon spending an action to consume a berry, so the timing is off; comparable to Draconic Bloodline sorcerer's Elemental Affinity and dragon's breath ("whenever you use a spell" vs "when you cast a spell"). Also, the sickle is exclusive to druids and rangers.
I have no intentions of multiclassing this character, so without PAM or shillelagh from a feat or domain, quarterstaffs and greatclubs are mechanically identical (going for Nature domain is better here for using a shield's emblem as a focus for +2 AC). Flavor-wise, I figured the character wouldn't be afraid to crack a few skulls if needed, so the extra heft of the greatclub feels better in hand for such a task.
Comparing a cleric's Divine Strike attack to casting a cantrip, the two are actually numerically comparable with Divine Strike making attacks come online a little earlier than cantrip scaling (sacred flame's 2d8 to attack's 1d8+mod at 5th, 2d8 vs 2d8+mod at 7th, etc. to 4d8 vs 3d8+mod at 17th). Attack rolls have a chance to crit, while saves do not. Not only that, but notably powerful foes can outright choose to not fail a save or be flat-out immune to most spells, making the weapon attack even better.
And then we have green flame blade and booming blade, which capitalize on both types of scaling AND can crit.
Thankyou for all the help I'm mostly a fighter of many styles but I'm learning the Cleric. Most appreciated