I recently starting playing a Twilight Cleric and after hitting level 2 and actually using Twilight Sanctuary in-game, I spoke with my DM after the game to figure out how we were going to nerf this ability. I love a powerful ability as much as the next guy but this was a problematic ability for several reasons.
The biggest problem is the amount of game time it takes up. You are now part of everyone else's turn. That is garbage design. You shouldn't be part of everyone else's turn. It feel gross, like stealing the spotlight back from the group constantly.
The next biggest issue is that it is simply overtuned. That is a sizeable chunk of THP and you are pumping it out AOE and without any further action economy cost to you. Just Bam, 1 action triggers a nonstop fountain of THP to everything for a whole minute. It genuinely made the encounter we fought entirely trivialized. The enemies weren't intelligent and their attacks were divided, and adding 1d6+2 THP to everyone absorbed basically all the incoming damage entirely, and the effect even persisted after combat a couple rounds leaving everyone with 8 THP and full HP. What should have been a deadly encounter became super easy, barely an inconvenience.
So. I knew it needed nerfed. I knew going in it was going to be strong but actually using it in a game really drove that home just how broken it really is. After careful consideration and to keep the feel and flavor of the ability, the only thing we changed was that to trigger the +1d6+level THP function at the end of someone's turn... instead of just happening automatically, we made it take the cleric's reaction.
This means: He can realistically only trigger that effect to 1 creature per round. This helps with the overtuning, and keeps him out of everyone's turns. But it can still be used to pad the team's HP when used intelligently. And it still serves to help protect the party from charm/fear effects.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Original poster asked what's so good about the TC. Twilight Sanctuary (TS) imposes dim light in the area (30' Rad.) which is Disadvantage on perception (wis) checks that require sight. I have a rogue friend who will undoutedly exploit this to no end :). Not terribly powerful but it is a form of battlefield control.
Original poster asked what's so good about the TC. Twilight Sanctuary (TS) imposes dim light in the area (30' Rad.) which is Disadvantage on perception (wis) checks that require sight. I have a rogue friend who will undoutedly exploit this to no end :). Not terribly powerful but it is a form of battlefield control.
You can do the same thing with a lantern, hooded. The dim light effect is a nerf, not a buff, because it's compulsory.
A hooded lantern CAStS light , twilight santuary fills an area with dim light. My interpretation of that is hold turn on a hoodeed lantern in a field on a sunnty day and you are still in bright light, if the Cleric uses twilight sanctuary it becomes dim light. Yes there ware times when that is a disadvantage but oftern the advatages are huge, for example.
A wood elf or skulker rogue can hide using the dim light as cover
A drow or kobald is not affected by sunlight sensitvity
If a creature needs to be in bright light on their turn it is quite likely they will be able to step outside the area and then step inside again at the end of the turn for the temp HP (if they need it.)
The shadows turn dim light within 10 feet of you into darkness, and bright light in the same area to dim light.
Shadow of Moil very explicitly darkens the area around you, while Twilight Sanctuary fills the area with light, which is basically the same as a Torch:
A torch burns for 1 hour, providing bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet.
Twilight Sanctuary is a light source, it just isn't a very bright one.
However, it's still a nerf in a way, because it means that instead of skulking in the shadow where you're harder to hit (but can still see yourself thanks to darkvision), you're in an area of light drawing attention to yourself. Which actually makes it reasonable in dark environments for enemies to focus on the Twilight Cleric as a counter to how strong this ability is.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I admit the wording is unclear and I can see how you came to your interpretation. Shadow of moil always darkens an area so it is a bit different. Clearly is twilight sanctuary is cast in darkness it creates light, but I think "filling an area with dim light" (Twilight Sanctuary) is different to "providing ....dim light" (torch). If an area of bright lght is "filled with dim light" then it contains dim light, if you pride dim light to an area of bright light is remains in bright light.
The problem is that "filling" an area with light doesn't mean the light that's already there goes away; if they wanted it to change the level of light they would surely have used the same pattern as Shadow of Moil, darkvision etc. which would be to specify "bright light and darkness in this area becomes dim light" or something similar.
If Twilight Sanctuary reduced areas of bright light to dim light then it will only become even more OP as you could combo it with Shadow Blade for nearly pemanent advantage, get that on a party of Eldritch Knights and you could mince anything in reach. Since the feature is already OP I'm more inclined to lean toward the option that's not as exploitable 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
The problem is that "filling" an area with light doesn't mean the light that's already there goes away; if they wanted it to change the level of light they would surely have used the same pattern as Shadow of Moil, darkvision etc. which would be to specify "bright light and darkness in this area becomes dim light" or something similar.
If Twilight Sanctuary reduced areas of bright light to dim light then it will only become even more OP as you could combo it with Shadow Blade for nearly pemanent advantage, get that on a party of Eldritch Knights and you could mince anything in reach. Since the feature is already OP I'm more inclined to lean toward the option that's not as exploitable 😉
It doesn't fill the "area" with dim light, it creates a sphere, made of twilight, and that sphere is filled with dim light. The difference is that the TC is actually creating something, and within that thing is filled dim light.
But, you're right in that it is super OP for an ability and any and all nerfs are warranted. However, I actually like the thematic of them being able to just set the light levels to Dim. So keep that part, I instead nerf the AOE Temp HP.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The problem is that "filling" an area with light doesn't mean the light that's already there goes away; if they wanted it to change the level of light they would surely have used the same pattern as Shadow of Moil, darkvision etc. which would be to specify "bright light and darkness in this area becomes dim light" or something similar.
If Twilight Sanctuary reduced areas of bright light to dim light then it will only become even more OP as you could combo it with Shadow Blade for nearly pemanent advantage, get that on a party of Eldritch Knights and you could mince anything in reach. Since the feature is already OP I'm more inclined to lean toward the option that's not as exploitable 😉
It doesn't fill the "area" with dim light, it creates a sphere, made of twilight, and that sphere is filled with dim light. The difference is that the TC is actually creating something, and within that thing is filled dim light.
But, you're right in that it is super OP for an ability and any and all nerfs are warranted. However, I actually like the thematic of them being able to just set the light levels to Dim. So keep that part, I instead nerf the AOE Temp HP.
Bear in mind that if you want to rule that this is what "fill" means, TCs are not the only way to do it, so everyone else needs to be told. Here are the other salient examples from the PHB:
Hallow (darkness or bright light, with independent rules text)
The problem is that "filling" an area with light doesn't mean the light that's already there goes away; if they wanted it to change the level of light they would surely have used the same pattern as Shadow of Moil, darkvision etc. which would be to specify "bright light and darkness in this area becomes dim light" or something similar.
If Twilight Sanctuary reduced areas of bright light to dim light then it will only become even more OP as you could combo it with Shadow Blade for nearly pemanent advantage, get that on a party of Eldritch Knights and you could mince anything in reach. Since the feature is already OP I'm more inclined to lean toward the option that's not as exploitable 😉
It doesn't fill the "area" with dim light, it creates a sphere, made of twilight, and that sphere is filled with dim light. The difference is that the TC is actually creating something, and within that thing is filled dim light.
But, you're right in that it is super OP for an ability and any and all nerfs are warranted. However, I actually like the thematic of them being able to just set the light levels to Dim. So keep that part, I instead nerf the AOE Temp HP.
Bear in mind that if you want to rule that this is what "fill" means, TCs are not the only way to do it, so everyone else needs to be told. Here are the other salient examples from the PHB:
Hallow (darkness or bright light, with independent rules text)
So everyone who can cast those spells will need to be told that "fill" is following your special definition.
Naw. Not my definition, not a special one, and... None of those spells create a Sphere of Twilight. You can rule it this way in your game if you like though!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't fill the "area" with dim light, it creates a sphere, made of twilight, and that sphere is filled with dim light. The difference is that the TC is actually creating something, and within that thing is filled dim light.
I think you're adding detail that isn't there; to expand the quote I gave earlier:
As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light.
The word I'd highlight here is "emanates", which is equivalent to emit/shed/provide in the same way as any other light source; nothing in the rule says that it removes light. Twilight after all is not a substance, it's just dim light; while the word might be more evocative and flavourful, the rule is basically just saying you provide dim light in a sphere, like most other light sources in the game.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It doesn't fill the "area" with dim light, it creates a sphere, made of twilight, and that sphere is filled with dim light. The difference is that the TC is actually creating something, and within that thing is filled dim light.
I think you're adding detail that isn't there; to expand the quote I gave earlier:
Maybe.
As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light.
The word I'd highlight here is "emanates", which is equivalent to emit/shed/provide in the same way as any other light source; nothing in the rule says that it removes light.
Does anything say a house removes sunlight? Why is it dim inside a house that is in the noonday sun?
Twilight after all is not a substance,
Here it is, this I think is where our reading differs. I see "a sphere of twilight" and I think it is creating something. It is twilight Sanctuary, and the description reads: "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." So, I see the effect of this ability as creating a magical effect, kinda like a bubble (a sphere) made of some sort of magical soothing divine twilight. Inside this thing, is dim light. But I do absolutely view it as a thing you can be inside of or outside of. For example: If you bring a torch inside it'll brighten it up inside.
So, I don't think twilight, in this context, is synonymous with 'dim light' but totally understand if you do. The ability just focuses too much on making the subject "the sphere of twilight" for me to think it just wanted a large candle.
it's just dim light; while the word might be more evocative and flavourful, the rule is basically just saying you provide dim light in a sphere, like most other light sources in the game.
I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, but I don't share this opinion.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Does anything say a house removes sunlight? Why is it dim inside a house that is in the noonday sun?
I hate to be even more pedantic, but the rules don't need to; the DM decides how much light there is in any given environment. If the house has open windows then it could absolutely still be bright light (or even direct daylight, for cases where that matters), otherwise they might rule it's dim or dark, lit by torches etc.
I see "a sphere of twilight" and I think it is creating something. It is twilight Sanctuary, and the description reads: "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." So, I see the effect of this ability as creating a magical effect, kinda like a bubble (a sphere) made of some sort of magical soothing divine twilight. Inside this thing, is dim light.
The word twilight in most dictonary definitions I've found is defined as dim light, i.e- the key property appears to be that it is light, not that it is an absence of light. Light is additive, you don't make a room darker by adding more light.
If this channel divinity effect does something extra with existing light then it should specify what that is, as spells with that kind of behaviour do.
Although it gets more complex when you start adding in that the definitions usually also mention the sun's position; would you also argue that the sun's position is different within this area? Why it would be an awesome mental image, the feature really needs to say stuff like this for it to happen.
I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, but I don't share this opinion.
I'd say it's more of an interpretation than an opinion; my opinion is that the feature is already strong enough, but I don't argue on that basis (though I did mention it earlier).
The problem is that it shouldn't be so open to interpretation, but that's sadly an issue with a lot of new sub-classes recently (see any thread about an Armorer's Thunder Gauntlets, you'll see some familiar names in them). The thing is, the general rule in D&D is that a feature or effect only does what it says it does; anything else is homebrew/DM discretion. If a feature doesn't say it overrides the light of an existing area (as many light/dark spells do) then the RAW ruling would be that it doesn't. The word twilight is at best too ambiguous to add additional behaviour to an effect that already does a lot, and WotC seem to be churning out books so fast at the moment that I'm not sure we can expect an Sage Advice/erratas etc. any time soon.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Does anything say a house removes sunlight? Why is it dim inside a house that is in the noonday sun?
I hate to be even more pedantic, but the rules don't need to; the DM decides how much light there is in any given environment. If the house has open windows then it could absolutely still be bright light (or even direct daylight, for cases where that matters), otherwise they might rule it's dim or dark, lit by torches etc.
I feel like maybe you're trying to convince me to change my mind? I very much enjoy the way the ability works in my games. Much, as you're saying, the DM decides how much light is in any given environment... Within the sphere of twilight, in my games, that's dim light. I've stated my reasons. I consider it a sphere, made of twilight. Within this 'room' the lighting is dim, per the ability.
I see "a sphere of twilight" and I think it is creating something. It is twilight Sanctuary, and the description reads: "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." So, I see the effect of this ability as creating a magical effect, kinda like a bubble (a sphere) made of some sort of magical soothing divine twilight. Inside this thing, is dim light.
The word twilight in most dictonary definitions I've found is defined as dim light, i.e- the key property appears to be that it is light, not that it is an absence of light. Light is additive, you don't make a room darker by adding more light.
A sealed room in the middle of a field in the noonday sun... is dark inside.
I think Twilight Sanctuary works essentially the same way, creates a giant sphere that is its own environment... that would normally be dark except the ability fills that environment with dim light. So, if you create a sphere of twilight, within the noonday sun, inside that sphere, it is not bright, instead dim, because within the sphere is not the outside environment, it is inside the sphere environment.
As I've said, regarding additive light... I fully believe that if you brought a light effect into the sphere it'd brighten the area normally. But a light source outside the sphere would not.
I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, but I don't share this opinion.
I'd say it's more of an interpretation than an opinion; my opinion is that the feature is already strong enough, but I don't argue on that basis (though I did mention it earlier).
My opinion is that it is too strong for sure, and thus why I nerf its Temp HP functions in my games. (And even self-nerfed my twilight cleric in someone else's game)
The problem is that it shouldn't be so open to interpretation, but that's sadly an issue with a lot of new sub-classes recently (see any thread about an Armorer's Thunder Gauntlets, you'll see some familiar names in them).
That's an opinion too. Letting DMs sort it and run it however it best works for their story is one of the on-brand perks of 5e. You can rule it one way for your story, I can rule it another for my story. Both are right. That's how 5e was designed. Let there be rulings, not rules. It is why they reiterate so. many. times that DMs make calls and whatever they say is right.
The thing is, the general rule in D&D is that a feature or effect only does what it says it does; anything else is homebrew/DM discretion.
My guy, this... isn't the rules forum lol. I've even already say I homebrew the ability so I'm not sure what your goal is here?
If a feature doesn't say it overrides the light of an existing area (as many light/dark spells do) then the RAW ruling would be that it doesn't.
I thought you said the DM decides the lighting condition in environments?
lol... for reals though. If you have a giant empty sphere, but hollow inside. It'd be dark in there right? lol of course it would be. But... if you fill it with dim light... then it'd have dim light in it.
So...
The dim light is overriding the natural darkness of being inside the sphere.
Bring another light source in? Say a torch? Then it gets even brighter.
The word twilight is at best too ambiguous to add additional behaviour to an effect that already does a lot, and WotC seem to be churning out books so fast at the moment that I'm not sure we can expect an Sage Advice/erratas etc. any time soon.
It being too ambiguous or not is your opinion too. I think its pretty straightforward.
And, really, you don't need to try to convince me to run it differently. I like it this way. I think it is infinitely cooler than just a big candle.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Sorry but you're contradicting yourself more and more, and why even respond if your answer is effectively "I don't care what the rule says, I'm doing it this way no matter what"?
What the rules actually say matters, because that's how we determine how the rules are supposed to work. You want to homebrew it to oblivion, fine, but that's not what I was pointing out, and I feel like I was very clear about that. It's not a "sphere of twilight" as twilight is not a thing substance, which is why it then has to tell you that it is "filled with dim light"; these are not unlike things we see in the rules all the time, and are well understood. A sphere describes the area of the effect, but the word "twilight" here is basically meaningless for what that effect is, it's just flavour; the part that matters is "filled with dim light" which actually tells us part of what the twlight does, but gives no indication that it's supposed to ignore any of the normal rules for light.
I'd also argue that being able to create a no-consequences, no-concentration area of dim light in bright environments on demand is potentially even more OP than the healing issue. As I've mentioned, this would allow you and your party to reliably use a bunch of shadow specific abilities that proc in dim light (such as Shadow Blade's advantage) without any balancing factor (as you can just hand out darkvision). If this were the only effect of Twilight Sanctuary it might be fine, but it's not, and even then, I'd also argue that you could remove Twilight Sanctuary from the Twilight Cleric altogether, and it'd still be one of the better cleric domains.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Sorry but you're contradicting yourself throughout now, and why even respond if your answer is effectively "I don't care what the rule says, I'm doing it this way no matter what"?
What the rules actually say matters, because that's how we determine how the rules are supposed to work. You want to homebrew it to oblivion, fine, but that's not what I was pointing out, and I feel like I was very clear about that. It's not a "sphere of twilight", it's not even a sphere "filled with twilight", it's a sphere within which twilight "emanates from you" and is "filled with dim light"; these are all things we see in the rules all the time, and are well understood; you're choosing to twist it into something that the feature doesn't say.
I'd also argue that being able to create a no-consequences, no-concentration area of dim light in bright environments on demand is potentially even more OP than the healing issue. As I've mentioned, this would allow you and your party to reliably use a bunch of shadow specific abilities that proc in dim light (such as Shadow Blade's advantage) without any balancing factor (as you can just hand out darkvision). If this were the only effect of Twilight Sanctuary it might be fine, but it's not, and even then, I'd also argue that you could remove Twilight Sanctuary from the Twilight Cleric altogether, and it'd still be one of the better cleric domains.
I would have to tap JC on what the intent is behind the ability. I polled a group of folks (~400 or so) and about 80% of them would argue it creates dim light even in brightness.
Granted that is a relatively small sample but did show there is confusion on what the ability does at minimum.
I would have to tap JC on what the intent is behind the ability. I polled a group of folks (~400 or so) and about 80% of them would argue it creates dim light even in brightness.
Granted that is a relatively small sample but did show there is confusion on what the ability does at minimum.
How did you conduct the poll and what was the question? It would need to be something like "If a room is filled with bright light, and an effect creates a sphere within it that is filled with dim light, what brightness/visibility is the sphere?", but even so, we have pretty solid precedent about how light is supposed to work in D&D; torches etc. brighten areas of dim light or darkness, and specific magical effects can explicitly do the opposite.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I would have to tap JC on what the intent is behind the ability. I polled a group of folks (~400 or so) and about 80% of them would argue it creates dim light even in brightness.
Granted that is a relatively small sample but did show there is confusion on what the ability does at minimum.
How did you conduct the poll and what was the question? It would need to be something like "If a room is filled with bright light, and an effect creates a sphere within it that is filled with dim light, what brightness/visibility is the sphere?", but even so, we have pretty solid precedent about how light is supposed to work; torches etc. can brighten areas of dim light or darkness, and specific magical effects can do the opposite, but the latter says this explicitly.
I just straight up asked:
"Does Twilight Sanctuary create Dim Light in its area of affect?
If so is the following true:
In bright light the area is now dim light in the area of effect
In darkness the area is now dim light in the area of effect"
80% answered "Yes to all" Which honestly I didn't expect.
I think it had a bit of a bias as you could look at the results real time before you answered so people might have just gone with the popular answer.
EDIT: As for where it was a strawpoll in a DnD Discord and for some reason I cannot access it anymore....I can repoll to see if I can get the results again!
Sorry but you're contradicting yourself more and more, and why even respond if your answer is effectively "I don't care what the rule says, I'm doing it this way no matter what"?
What the rules actually say matters, because that's how we determine how the rules are supposed to work.
This isn't the rules forum my man. D&D explicitly allows homebrewing, I'm not sure where this animosity is coming from.
It's not a "sphere of twilight",
Please don't put the actual exact text of the rules in quotation marks and claim that isn't what the rules say. That is direct misinformation and this is specifically why I'm responding.
The ability says, and I quote: "As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you."
So it is a "sphere of twilight" and your statement is in direct, objective disagreement with the reality of the text of the rules.
Also... do you know why it is a sphere that we created? "you and your allies have half cover while in the sphere created by your Twilight Sanctuary." <---- The 17th level ability references the sphere itself as having been "created". That isn't a reference to a 30ft radius area... that is a reference to an actual thing. It is even providing cover at this point. That means its so concentrated that it has become at least semi-solid in a protective capacity. Enough to provide cover... Cover.
Cover: "Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm."
If you don't think it is creating a "sphere of twilight" then you're homebrewing stuff.
the word "twilight" here is basically meaningless for what that effect is, it's just flavour;
You're free to casually disregard a portion of the ability if you want to. That is homebrewing, and you're very welcome to do so.
the part that matters is "filled with dim light" which actually tells us part of what the twlight does, but gives no indication that it's supposed to ignore any of the normal rules for light.
My ruling doesn't ignore normal rules for light. The dim light inside the sphere can absolutely still be overridden by bright light, if that light is brought inside the sphere. Just like a room. If you bring a torch into a room filled with dim light, it gets brighter inside. Same thing. Bring a bright light into the sphere of dim light? Bright light. So, what's the problem?
I'd also argue that being able to create a no-consequences, no-concentration area of dim light in bright environments on demand is potentially even more OP than the healing issue. As I've mentioned, this would allow you and your party to reliably use a bunch of shadow specific abilities that proc in dim light (such as Shadow Blade's advantage) without any balancing factor (as you can just hand out darkvision). If this were the only effect of Twilight Sanctuary it might be fine, but it's not, and even then, I'd also argue that you could remove Twilight Sanctuary from the Twilight Cleric altogether, and it'd still be one of the better cleric domains.
So you base your rulings based on perceptions of power and not RAW? Okay. That's valid. But... why the harp about following the rules as written when you yourself deviate based entirely on your perception of relative power?
I do both. Read it to understand the RAW, and then homebrew it for various reasons, balance, integrate interestingly into story, etc. The lighting portion of my ruling I feel is RAW. I also recognize that AOE Temp HP fountain is OP, and so homebrew nerf it.
Reminder: This isn't the rules forum. It is the cleric forum. Honestly, if you wanna debate how this ability is supposed to work back and forth, that other forum might be a better venue.
The question was originally what's so great about the Twilight Cleric.
An on short rest AOE dim light that geysers 1d6 + your LEVEL temp HP to EVERYONE you want... just automatically...every turn. This turns nearly any deadly encounter into an easy one when activated. Your group may even walk out of combat with full HP and now also bonus T HP, no one being actually injured whatsoever because the Temp HP refreshes every single round. At only 6th level you're doing it twice per short rest so you're trivializing even more encounters per day than before!
That AOE dim light T HP fountain ALSO effectively* provides immunity to Charm and Frightened conditions while up. *not actual immunity, simply an automatic removal of the effect every turn
Mass-Darkvision, 300ft range. 1 per rest for free, costs slot after. (Compare to The Spell, Darkvision... 2nd level slot, one target, only 60ft, but does last 8 hrs)
The bonus spell known list!. Just a phenomenal list of spells. Probably my fav of all cleric lists. Really, very, exceptionally good.
We just talked about the list but OMG Aura of Vitality is 20d6 hp for a 3rd level slot. Cure wounds only 3d8+mod. That's average 70 vs 19 (at 20 wisdom). 70 is also how much HEAL heals for with a 6th level spell. Yeah, the aura takes a full minute to dish out all that HP. But its a lot.
And...again, another spell that needs direct mention: Circle of Power. You're the ONLY character that just gets this spell before 17th level. This is an endgame spell, top tier fighting mythical and legendary creatures spell... you get at only 9th level. Use it often and watch your party shrug off otherwise TPK inducing effects without any effect whatsoever. This spell, on a 9th level support character like you... is obscene.
Advantage on initiative. Infinite use, but only ever to a single target. Someone in your group is always rolling initiative with advantage, whoever you feel most needs it at the time (often yourself). ((My dex-based twilight cleric routinely goes first with 20+ init results, it is almost expected he goes first))
Concentration-free flight starting at only 6th level? Uhm, yes sign me up.
Oh the free heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency. Almost forgot that. The other powers almost dwarf this one in scale but... I mean, objectively this is also very good by itself.
And.. on top of all that, you're a cleric, which was already one of the most powerful classes even without a subclass.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I recently starting playing a Twilight Cleric and after hitting level 2 and actually using Twilight Sanctuary in-game, I spoke with my DM after the game to figure out how we were going to nerf this ability. I love a powerful ability as much as the next guy but this was a problematic ability for several reasons.
The biggest problem is the amount of game time it takes up. You are now part of everyone else's turn. That is garbage design. You shouldn't be part of everyone else's turn. It feel gross, like stealing the spotlight back from the group constantly.
The next biggest issue is that it is simply overtuned. That is a sizeable chunk of THP and you are pumping it out AOE and without any further action economy cost to you. Just Bam, 1 action triggers a nonstop fountain of THP to everything for a whole minute. It genuinely made the encounter we fought entirely trivialized. The enemies weren't intelligent and their attacks were divided, and adding 1d6+2 THP to everyone absorbed basically all the incoming damage entirely, and the effect even persisted after combat a couple rounds leaving everyone with 8 THP and full HP. What should have been a deadly encounter became super easy, barely an inconvenience.
So. I knew it needed nerfed. I knew going in it was going to be strong but actually using it in a game really drove that home just how broken it really is. After careful consideration and to keep the feel and flavor of the ability, the only thing we changed was that to trigger the +1d6+level THP function at the end of someone's turn... instead of just happening automatically, we made it take the cleric's reaction.
This means: He can realistically only trigger that effect to 1 creature per round. This helps with the overtuning, and keeps him out of everyone's turns. But it can still be used to pad the team's HP when used intelligently. And it still serves to help protect the party from charm/fear effects.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Original poster asked what's so good about the TC. Twilight Sanctuary (TS) imposes dim light in the area (30' Rad.) which is Disadvantage on perception (wis) checks that require sight. I have a rogue friend who will undoutedly exploit this to no end :). Not terribly powerful but it is a form of battlefield control.
You can do the same thing with a lantern, hooded. The dim light effect is a nerf, not a buff, because it's compulsory.
A hooded lantern CAStS light , twilight santuary fills an area with dim light. My interpretation of that is hold turn on a hoodeed lantern in a field on a sunnty day and you are still in bright light, if the Cleric uses twilight sanctuary it becomes dim light. Yes there ware times when that is a disadvantage but oftern the advatages are huge, for example.
If a creature needs to be in bright light on their turn it is quite likely they will be able to step outside the area and then step inside again at the end of the turn for the temp HP (if they need it.)
I don't think Twilight Sanctuary would darken the area.
To compare the wording, this is Twilight Sanctuary:
Compared to Shadow of Moil:
Shadow of Moil very explicitly darkens the area around you, while Twilight Sanctuary fills the area with light, which is basically the same as a Torch:
Twilight Sanctuary is a light source, it just isn't a very bright one.
However, it's still a nerf in a way, because it means that instead of skulking in the shadow where you're harder to hit (but can still see yourself thanks to darkvision), you're in an area of light drawing attention to yourself. Which actually makes it reasonable in dark environments for enemies to focus on the Twilight Cleric as a counter to how strong this ability is.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I admit the wording is unclear and I can see how you came to your interpretation. Shadow of moil always darkens an area so it is a bit different. Clearly is twilight sanctuary is cast in darkness it creates light, but I think "filling an area with dim light" (Twilight Sanctuary) is different to "providing ....dim light" (torch). If an area of bright lght is "filled with dim light" then it contains dim light, if you pride dim light to an area of bright light is remains in bright light.
Very much a DM decision.
The problem is that "filling" an area with light doesn't mean the light that's already there goes away; if they wanted it to change the level of light they would surely have used the same pattern as Shadow of Moil, darkvision etc. which would be to specify "bright light and darkness in this area becomes dim light" or something similar.
If Twilight Sanctuary reduced areas of bright light to dim light then it will only become even more OP as you could combo it with Shadow Blade for nearly pemanent advantage, get that on a party of Eldritch Knights and you could mince anything in reach. Since the feature is already OP I'm more inclined to lean toward the option that's not as exploitable 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It doesn't fill the "area" with dim light, it creates a sphere, made of twilight, and that sphere is filled with dim light. The difference is that the TC is actually creating something, and within that thing is filled dim light.
But, you're right in that it is super OP for an ability and any and all nerfs are warranted. However, I actually like the thematic of them being able to just set the light levels to Dim. So keep that part, I instead nerf the AOE Temp HP.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Bear in mind that if you want to rule that this is what "fill" means, TCs are not the only way to do it, so everyone else needs to be told. Here are the other salient examples from the PHB:
So everyone who can cast those spells will need to be told that "fill" is following your special definition.
Naw. Not my definition, not a special one, and... None of those spells create a Sphere of Twilight. You can rule it this way in your game if you like though!
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think you're adding detail that isn't there; to expand the quote I gave earlier:
The word I'd highlight here is "emanates", which is equivalent to emit/shed/provide in the same way as any other light source; nothing in the rule says that it removes light. Twilight after all is not a substance, it's just dim light; while the word might be more evocative and flavourful, the rule is basically just saying you provide dim light in a sphere, like most other light sources in the game.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Maybe.
Does anything say a house removes sunlight? Why is it dim inside a house that is in the noonday sun?
Here it is, this I think is where our reading differs. I see "a sphere of twilight" and I think it is creating something. It is twilight Sanctuary, and the description reads: "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." So, I see the effect of this ability as creating a magical effect, kinda like a bubble (a sphere) made of some sort of magical soothing divine twilight. Inside this thing, is dim light. But I do absolutely view it as a thing you can be inside of or outside of. For example: If you bring a torch inside it'll brighten it up inside.
So, I don't think twilight, in this context, is synonymous with 'dim light' but totally understand if you do. The ability just focuses too much on making the subject "the sphere of twilight" for me to think it just wanted a large candle.
I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, but I don't share this opinion.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I hate to be even more pedantic, but the rules don't need to; the DM decides how much light there is in any given environment. If the house has open windows then it could absolutely still be bright light (or even direct daylight, for cases where that matters), otherwise they might rule it's dim or dark, lit by torches etc.
I'd say it's more of an interpretation than an opinion; my opinion is that the feature is already strong enough, but I don't argue on that basis (though I did mention it earlier).
The problem is that it shouldn't be so open to interpretation, but that's sadly an issue with a lot of new sub-classes recently (see any thread about an Armorer's Thunder Gauntlets, you'll see some familiar names in them). The thing is, the general rule in D&D is that a feature or effect only does what it says it does; anything else is homebrew/DM discretion. If a feature doesn't say it overrides the light of an existing area (as many light/dark spells do) then the RAW ruling would be that it doesn't. The word twilight is at best too ambiguous to add additional behaviour to an effect that already does a lot, and WotC seem to be churning out books so fast at the moment that I'm not sure we can expect an Sage Advice/erratas etc. any time soon.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I feel like maybe you're trying to convince me to change my mind? I very much enjoy the way the ability works in my games. Much, as you're saying, the DM decides how much light is in any given environment... Within the sphere of twilight, in my games, that's dim light. I've stated my reasons. I consider it a sphere, made of twilight. Within this 'room' the lighting is dim, per the ability.
My opinion is that it is too strong for sure, and thus why I nerf its Temp HP functions in my games. (And even self-nerfed my twilight cleric in someone else's game)
That's an opinion too. Letting DMs sort it and run it however it best works for their story is one of the on-brand perks of 5e. You can rule it one way for your story, I can rule it another for my story. Both are right. That's how 5e was designed. Let there be rulings, not rules. It is why they reiterate so. many. times that DMs make calls and whatever they say is right.
My guy, this... isn't the rules forum lol. I've even already say I homebrew the ability so I'm not sure what your goal is here?
I thought you said the DM decides the lighting condition in environments?
lol... for reals though. If you have a giant empty sphere, but hollow inside. It'd be dark in there right? lol of course it would be. But... if you fill it with dim light... then it'd have dim light in it.
So...
The dim light is overriding the natural darkness of being inside the sphere.
Bring another light source in? Say a torch? Then it gets even brighter.
It being too ambiguous or not is your opinion too. I think its pretty straightforward.
And, really, you don't need to try to convince me to run it differently. I like it this way. I think it is infinitely cooler than just a big candle.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Sorry but you're contradicting yourself more and more, and why even respond if your answer is effectively "I don't care what the rule says, I'm doing it this way no matter what"?
What the rules actually say matters, because that's how we determine how the rules are supposed to work. You want to homebrew it to oblivion, fine, but that's not what I was pointing out, and I feel like I was very clear about that. It's not a "sphere of twilight" as twilight is not a thing substance, which is why it then has to tell you that it is "filled with dim light"; these are not unlike things we see in the rules all the time, and are well understood. A sphere describes the area of the effect, but the word "twilight" here is basically meaningless for what that effect is, it's just flavour; the part that matters is "filled with dim light" which actually tells us part of what the twlight does, but gives no indication that it's supposed to ignore any of the normal rules for light.
I'd also argue that being able to create a no-consequences, no-concentration area of dim light in bright environments on demand is potentially even more OP than the healing issue. As I've mentioned, this would allow you and your party to reliably use a bunch of shadow specific abilities that proc in dim light (such as Shadow Blade's advantage) without any balancing factor (as you can just hand out darkvision). If this were the only effect of Twilight Sanctuary it might be fine, but it's not, and even then, I'd also argue that you could remove Twilight Sanctuary from the Twilight Cleric altogether, and it'd still be one of the better cleric domains.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I would have to tap JC on what the intent is behind the ability. I polled a group of folks (~400 or so) and about 80% of them would argue it creates dim light even in brightness.
Granted that is a relatively small sample but did show there is confusion on what the ability does at minimum.
How did you conduct the poll and what was the question? It would need to be something like "If a room is filled with bright light, and an effect creates a sphere within it that is filled with dim light, what brightness/visibility is the sphere?", but even so, we have pretty solid precedent about how light is supposed to work in D&D; torches etc. brighten areas of dim light or darkness, and specific magical effects can explicitly do the opposite.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I just straight up asked:
"Does Twilight Sanctuary create Dim Light in its area of affect?
If so is the following true:
In bright light the area is now dim light in the area of effect
In darkness the area is now dim light in the area of effect"
80% answered "Yes to all" Which honestly I didn't expect.
I think it had a bit of a bias as you could look at the results real time before you answered so people might have just gone with the popular answer.
EDIT: As for where it was a strawpoll in a DnD Discord and for some reason I cannot access it anymore....I can repoll to see if I can get the results again!
This isn't the rules forum my man. D&D explicitly allows homebrewing, I'm not sure where this animosity is coming from.
Please don't put the actual exact text of the rules in quotation marks and claim that isn't what the rules say. That is direct misinformation and this is specifically why I'm responding.
The ability says, and I quote: "As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you."
So it is a "sphere of twilight" and your statement is in direct, objective disagreement with the reality of the text of the rules.
Also... do you know why it is a sphere that we created? "you and your allies have half cover while in the sphere created by your Twilight Sanctuary." <---- The 17th level ability references the sphere itself as having been "created". That isn't a reference to a 30ft radius area... that is a reference to an actual thing. It is even providing cover at this point. That means its so concentrated that it has become at least semi-solid in a protective capacity. Enough to provide cover... Cover.
Cover: "Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm."
If you don't think it is creating a "sphere of twilight" then you're homebrewing stuff.
You're free to casually disregard a portion of the ability if you want to. That is homebrewing, and you're very welcome to do so.
My ruling doesn't ignore normal rules for light. The dim light inside the sphere can absolutely still be overridden by bright light, if that light is brought inside the sphere. Just like a room. If you bring a torch into a room filled with dim light, it gets brighter inside. Same thing. Bring a bright light into the sphere of dim light? Bright light. So, what's the problem?
So you base your rulings based on perceptions of power and not RAW? Okay. That's valid. But... why the harp about following the rules as written when you yourself deviate based entirely on your perception of relative power?
I do both. Read it to understand the RAW, and then homebrew it for various reasons, balance, integrate interestingly into story, etc. The lighting portion of my ruling I feel is RAW. I also recognize that AOE Temp HP fountain is OP, and so homebrew nerf it.
Reminder: This isn't the rules forum. It is the cleric forum. Honestly, if you wanna debate how this ability is supposed to work back and forth, that other forum might be a better venue.
The question was originally what's so great about the Twilight Cleric.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.