Any cleric with heavy armor proficiency (and even some without) is clearly viable with both Str and Dex. Str clerics aren't some niche build like Str Wizard. You don't need to drastically change your playstyle, or pick specific races like Tortle. And while I think there is an argument that Dex is a bit better in a vacuum, we don't play in a vacuum. I think your party comp matters.
Having at least one high party member with decent STR is useful. If your party lacks one, building your cleric with Str can help overcome certain obstacles that you would otherwise struggle with. Barricading passages, forcing open heavy doors, climbing or swimming in difficult conditions, carrying heavy things, etc. Its also good to have at least one character that can grabble in combat. Other Str classes are better than a cleric because they get multiple attacks, but without one of them in your party, a Str Cleric is your best bet. Lastly, a frontliner is good to have, and the +1 (or +2 from forge) AC from a Str cleric is better for front lining than a slight initiative boost, IMO.
Finally, in terms of saving throws, I'm not sure that Dex automatically the better save. Dex has more effects (though the numbers presented can be misleading), but almost all dex saves are against damage only. Meanwhile, Str often includes damage and other effects, like prone, restraint, or being launched through the air. These effects can be more impactful than raw damage.
Any cleric with heavy armor proficiency (and even some without) is clearly viable with both Str and Dex. Str clerics aren't some niche build like Str Wizard. You don't need to drastically change your playstyle, or pick specific races like Tortle. And while I think there is an argument that Dex is a bit better in a vacuum, we don't play in a vacuum. I think your party comp matters.
Having at least one high party member with decent STR is useful. If your party lacks one, building your cleric with Str can help overcome certain obstacles that you would otherwise struggle with. Barricading passages, forcing open heavy doors, climbing or swimming in difficult conditions, carrying heavy things, etc. Its also good to have at least one character that can grabble in combat. Other Str classes are better than a cleric because they get multiple attacks, but without one of them in your party, a Str Cleric is your best bet. Lastly, a frontliner is good to have, and the +1 (or +2 from forge) AC from a Str cleric is better for front lining than a slight initiative boost, IMO.
Finally, in terms of saving throws, I'm not sure that Dex automatically the better save. Dex has more effects (though the numbers presented can be misleading), but almost all dex saves are against damage only. Meanwhile, Str often includes damage and other effects, like prone, restraint, or being launched through the air. These effects can be more impactful than raw damage.
You can't really focus on DEX if you pick heavy armor as you need STR 16 to get the best heavy armor.
Minor conditions < HP for me....I can get out of óprone/grappled by myself... It's very hard to get up from 0 by myself.
If you are relying on the Cleric for Athletic checks that's pretty sad state. So many other classes can be better off thanks to expertise, rage, or basically having features that actually have benefit from having STR.
Overall as stated it's up to you but STR is generally less benefital overall in this edition
Only two classes, bard and rogue, grant expertise. A valor bard or thief rogue might choose to take expertise in Athletics, but I don't see others doing it. And if you're expending a use of rage to climb, swim, jump a gap, or break a door down then more power to you. But it's not generally something seen.
Strength and Athletics both have a lot of uses. I went into considerable detail on the previous page. And there's nothing wrong with a cleric who has a decent Strength score and proficiency in Athletics. It's a tool at their disposal, and they can get it from their background. Starting with a +4 is still pretty good, and reaching Tier 4 with a +9 isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.
As with any choices people make with their characters, YMMV.
There's always been a trade-off between Strength and Dexterity. And that's not going to change anytime soon.
Strength-based attacks can hit harder, with bigger weapons, and the bulk of magic weapons handed out in modules primarily key off of Strength. Having more Strength means being able to lift and carry more, jump higher and farther, and wear heavier armors. Setting aside the monetary cost, the Ability Score investment needed to maximize AC in heavy armor is less than in light armor. In the interests of bounded accuracy, a cleric or paladin could start with an AC that's 4 higher than a bard or rogue. That's nothing to sneeze at. If having a high AC is your concern, then how quickly you cap that means you can move on to other kinds of improvements more quickly.
Ranged attacks tend to key off Dexterity, and may keep you relatively safe by staying away from the fray, but ranged attacks can also face a higher AC. Enemies can use cover to make themselves harder to hit, by either +2 or +5. That said, ranged attacks also allow for hitting enemies that other obstacles might prevent melee fighters from reaching quickly, if at all. There are environmental factors, variables, that no amount of back-and-forth in this thread are going to adequately account for. In a white box, sure, Dexterity probably pulls ahead. They get to act sooner, statistically, and can probably kite for a bit. But once you get to actually rolling dice, especially on a dynamic battle map, it's anyone's guess.
And, more importantly, it shouldn't be a competition. Playing is a cooperative experience. Characters who emphasize Strength have an easier time breaking things, climbing and swimming, and initiating grapples. Those who emphasize Dexterity get a leg up on more skills. There is room and role enough for both, so drop the superiority complexes.
Only two classes, bard and rogue, grant expertise. A valor bard or thief rogue might choose to take expertise in Athletics, but I don't see others doing it. And if you're expending a use of rage to climb, swim, jump a gap, or break a door down then more power to you. But it's not generally something seen.
Strength and Athletics both have a lot of uses. I went into considerable detail on the previous page. And there's nothing wrong with a cleric who has a decent Strength score and proficiency in Athletics. It's a tool at their disposal, and they can get it from their background. Starting with a +4 is still pretty good, and reaching Tier 4 with a +9 isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.
As with any choices people make with their characters, YMMV. No need to be a snob about it.
Ranger now gets expertise at first level and TBF anyone can now thanks to Tasha's.
Unfortunately STR/ATH have A LOT less uses than the other combined skills of Dexterity. The fact you have 4 skills and Initiative tied to its just objectively more.
Overall its easier to just go with DEX 14 and get the maximum benefit of Medium Armor than go STR 15 (lets be real STR 16 as its hard to just odd scores) to get Plate (1500 gp!)
I do not knock those who do though...as flavor is a huge part of this game obviously and STR feels better on some builds (War/Tempest)
I'm not sure why that would be a sad state to have a cleric be your Str class. Aside from grappling, they are easily just as effective at dealing with Str based obstacles as a Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, or Str Ranger. Rogue/Bard Athletics expertise is pretty damn rare.
I'm not sure why that would be a sad state to have a cleric be your Str class. Aside from grappling, they are easily just as effective at dealing with Str based obstacles as a Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, or Str Ranger. Rogue/Bard Athletics expertise is pretty damn rare.
Barbarian no as they have ADV on STR based checks/saves in rage. Also Barbarians need DEX for AC anyway so they are already investing in DEX.
Paladin has Oath of Glory that has a Channel Divinity that grants ADV on ATH checks.....but I also think Dex based paladins are better anyway.
Fighter I agree with....however they have much better reason in general for going STR as they have more builds that rely on it (GWM Battlemaster, Cavalier, Echo knight, etc...) so investing in STR is not really a bad call there as you are fueling more with it.
STR Ranger is kind of a meme unforunately....as you don't get access to Heavy armor you have to rely on 14 Dex anyway for medium armor so you really are just doing both much like barbarians.
Expertise is actually super unrare thanks to Tashas now which is actually a point towards STR the more I think about it. Any race can get Expertise in ATH which sure helps.
Don't treat optional class features and feats as making something "super unrare" as if they are something everyone should, or must, have on their characters. They're not.
Clerics get Enhance Ability and/or Guidance. They can fill skill rolls very effectively. They aren't leaving the other Str classes in the dust, but they do the job just fine.
All I'm saying is that if your party is dex-fighter / wizard / warlock, all of which frequently dump Str, you have a much stronger incentive to go Str vs Dex. You will bring higher AC to help you frontline and skills and options that your party lacks. The cost is a slightly lower initiative and being worse at skills that your other party members are focusing anyways.
Don't treat optional class features and feats as making something "super unrare" as if they are something everyone should, or must, have on their characters. They're not.
I listed no "optional class features"....did you mean Subclass features? All the features I mentioned are subclass features. Sans barbarian which rage is a core class feature.
If so thats an odd distinction to make as war cleric's heavy armor prof. is a subclass feature and is one of the only ways to make a pure STR cleric work....so if you want to invalidate subclass options as a talking point then you would also do away with the only real way to do a STR cleric as well.
The feats point actually gives more validity to the cleric as I suggested it can be taken by a STR cleric to make them more in line with the others subclass features.
I am not sure if you meant to discredit that part as it was supporting your side?
As for guidance/enhance ability that is a fair point. They do get some built in class options to boost their skill checks for STR. My only thing would be the other classes I mentioned have other reasons to pick STR (Barbarian Rage damage only works for STR, Cavalier uses STR mod for subclass features, etc...) but again I never said a STR cleric isn't viable its just worse than a DEX cleric overall.
Thats fair then...I still think a 14 Dex cleric is much better off than an 8 Dex cleric as the difference between -1 and +2 is pretty big for Dex saves.
Your fireball example is...odd.
The dex cleric failed and went down...but they had a better shot to do so than a STR cleric would? STR would have had 0 impact on the situation you mentioned so its hard to say that is a good example at all....
The +3 difference is a lot there is better than the +2 difference a Shield Master feat would give you so its at least as powerful as that which is saying a fair amount.
However the real rub comes in if you plan on playing a War cleric....which this thread was originally about. You will likely be using weapons a lot more than other clerics and I even then I do not see a real value for a STR war cleric over a DEX war cleric other than flavor.
Ultimately you are correct though as it matters less for Clerics in general. Either way a War Cleric will be viable as the cleric build is forgiving. The base class is so good its hard to go wrong as long as you have a decent wisdom and AC.
The reason why I brought up our dex Cleric's dex fails wasn't to point out anything about a strength Cleric's superiority, just that there's no guarantee that going dex build will guarantee that you'll succeed. Three of the cleric's most notable "fails" were actually dex related or because he dumped strength: the wolf proning him, failing the Fireball save (he didn't go down, but he almost did), and falling in a pit as a trap gave way.
That's not to say that the cleric would have been better as a strength based one (definitely not, since he was a grave cleric) or that the cleric was a failure (it was his first character and he was actually feeling like it was OP).
Dex is good enough that I would recommend using no lower than a 10 if you are going to dump it. A 12 isn't out of the question for wisdom based characters that are grabbing strength and aren't needing charisma for any reason. But even an 8 won't doom you under the majority of circumstances. For War Clerics, the majority of the benefits that dexterity will give you will likely be secondary or tertiary at best. Dex characters are more common and thus someone else will likely be better equipped at sleight of hand, stealth, and acrobatics than you. Initiative is important generally, but there aren't any mechanical reasons for the war cleric to stress about it more than others. Having Dex can be beneficial, but it's less likely for you to have the highest dex than it is for you to have the highest strength.
Overall, the importance of going once over the other isn't going to change a bunch about the campaign, since neither score will be high enough to make a significant difference. The exception would be for multiclass purposes, or if you needed one to be a certain value for a feat. The amount of damage that you save or deal via either is not likely to be enough difference to stress about going with one because it's more optimal. However, if you want to go with the more optimal choice, you'll probably want to go with dexterity.
Yes, you did. Ranger's don't automatically get Expertise. It's an optional feature presented in Tasha's.
Fair point.... But I also called STR ranger a meme so there's that lol.
Ranger is even worse for ATH as they don't get heavy armor.
Overall cleric does have some ways to help as mentioned (guidance/enhance ability) which does help. However the other benefits of DEX still make it better for cleric but STR Cleric is viable
Thats fair then...I still think a 14 Dex cleric is much better off than an 8 Dex cleric as the difference between -1 and +2 is pretty big for Dex saves.
Your fireball example is...odd.
The dex cleric failed and went down...but they had a better shot to do so than a STR cleric would? STR would have had 0 impact on the situation you mentioned so its hard to say that is a good example at all....
The +3 difference is a lot there is better than the +2 difference a Shield Master feat would give you so its at least as powerful as that which is saying a fair amount.
However the real rub comes in if you plan on playing a War cleric....which this thread was originally about. You will likely be using weapons a lot more than other clerics and I even then I do not see a real value for a STR war cleric over a DEX war cleric other than flavor.
Ultimately you are correct though as it matters less for Clerics in general. Either way a War Cleric will be viable as the cleric build is forgiving. The base class is so good its hard to go wrong as long as you have a decent wisdom and AC.
The reason why I brought up our dex Cleric's dex fails wasn't to point out anything about a strength Cleric's superiority, just that there's no guarantee that going dex build will guarantee that you'll succeed. Three of the cleric's most notable "fails" were actually dex related or because he dumped strength: the wolf proning him, failing the Fireball save (he didn't go down, but he almost did), and falling in a pit as a trap gave way.
Ok so even a 20 DEX rogue could go down to a failed Dex save....
The point being +3 to a save is dramatically better odds at success.
Anyone CAN fail anything but it's weird to say that is a negative?
Thats fair then...I still think a 14 Dex cleric is much better off than an 8 Dex cleric as the difference between -1 and +2 is pretty big for Dex saves.
Your fireball example is...odd.
The dex cleric failed and went down...but they had a better shot to do so than a STR cleric would? STR would have had 0 impact on the situation you mentioned so its hard to say that is a good example at all....
The +3 difference is a lot there is better than the +2 difference a Shield Master feat would give you so its at least as powerful as that which is saying a fair amount.
However the real rub comes in if you plan on playing a War cleric....which this thread was originally about. You will likely be using weapons a lot more than other clerics and I even then I do not see a real value for a STR war cleric over a DEX war cleric other than flavor.
Ultimately you are correct though as it matters less for Clerics in general. Either way a War Cleric will be viable as the cleric build is forgiving. The base class is so good its hard to go wrong as long as you have a decent wisdom and AC.
The reason why I brought up our dex Cleric's dex fails wasn't to point out anything about a strength Cleric's superiority, just that there's no guarantee that going dex build will guarantee that you'll succeed. Three of the cleric's most notable "fails" were actually dex related or because he dumped strength: the wolf proning him, failing the Fireball save (he didn't go down, but he almost did), and falling in a pit as a trap gave way.
Ok so even a 20 DEX rogue could go down to a failed Dex save....
The point being +3 to a save is dramatically better odds at success.
Anyone CAN fail anything but it's weird to say that is a negative?
I didn't say it was a negative. I was pointing out that there are times when it wouldn't matter. +3 is better, but it's only 15% better. I've also said that you can build a strength cleric without dropping dex to 8 as a 10 or 12 is also viable. The cleric doesn't need intelligence or charisma and putting the 8 on either of those vs strength is a matter of preference. Sure, both of those have more skills associated with it, but the saves are less frequent than strength saves. Between Paladins, bards, sorcerers, warlocks and rogues, you'll likely have someone with a better charisma score than a 12. Unless you've got a wizard or an Artificer you're less likely have someone with an intelligence greater than 10, though EKs and ATs also provide options that might have higher int and some other rogues will go with a higher int too.
With a 12 or a 10, your +3 to saves drops to +2 or +1 and still won't keep you from having your strength build. Your charisma save proficiency will keep your charisma saves from being terrible if you are subjected to them. There are options to keeping your dex saves higher other than strength bad, strength 0. Dropping strength to 0 does affect the fewest skills but that's not going to matter unless you are in a solo campaign since others can handle those other responsibilities.
Here allow me, my Knowledge domain Cleric employs as slightly modified version of the Outlander background.
The only difference is swapping the access to a musical instrument with a Herbalist Kit.
So she has Athletics and Survival skills as part of that background, but only has a 12 Strength.
Yes either Str or Dex build can fail, but to pigeon hole circumstances without noticing what else that particular cleric covers as a result of their Background seems a bigger mistake than arguing about their ability scores.
Can we just agree the problem the OP is addressing appears to be more to do with how that player is looking down at that class instead of the real problem they have?
Here allow me, my Knowledge domain Cleric employs as slightly modified version of the Outlander background.
The only difference is swapping the access to a musical instrument with a Herbalist Kit.
So she has Athletics and Survival skills as part of that background, but only has a 12 Strength.
Yes either Str or Dex build can fail, but to pigeon hole circumstances without noticing what else that particular cleric covers as a result of their Background seems a bigger mistake than arguing about their ability scores.
Can we just agree the problem the OP is addressing appears to be more to do with how that player is looking down at that class instead of the real problem they have?
Yeah overall they will be viable as Cleric base class is stronk enough to cover most lower scores. Tbf I have said this multiple times.
Nice thing about knowledge Cleric is the skill proficiency channel divinity which is crazy versatile.
Clerics get Enhance Ability and/or Guidance. They can fill skill rolls very effectively. They aren't leaving the other Str classes in the dust, but they do the job just fine.
All I'm saying is that if your party is dex-fighter / wizard / warlock, all of which frequently dump Str, you have a much stronger incentive to go Str vs Dex. You will bring higher AC to help you frontline and skills and options that your party lacks. The cost is a slightly lower initiative and being worse at skills that your other party members are focusing anyways.
Clerics also have things like Bless to affect saving throws which is a common spell to cast. Which does help to do things like Cover dex and/or strength a bit when it comes to saves
But Note. I never argued that Strength Builds are better. Just that they are a completely viable cleric build alternative. Where as others were taking the stance that there was only one way to build clerics and that was with dex.
Also I want to point out that The extra effects that come with strength saves are something to keep in mind (as mentioned previously by others) though they do get overlooked a lot. Most of them do things like make it so you can't escape if you need to, make it difficult to fight back, or make it so that you are easier to hit and thus take more damage. This is not true of most dex saves that are a difference between full and half damage or full and no damage in a number of instances though a few do inflict things like prone as well. While Damage is a significant thing. Let's keep in mind that of all the classes. The Cleric is the one most designed at it's core to actually deal with the issue of loss of hp.
And on a little side note. Barbarians don't actually have a dex requirement. They can wear up to medium armor and still fully function in most if not all cases, which can get them as high as 15 AC with a dex no higher than 10 and can get that to 17 with as little as 14 dex and no magical bonuses, with bonuses they can go a whole lot higher. I'm aware that everybody sees the barbarian and automatically thinks unarmored defense but they do actually have viable alternatives for them as well. Particularly since they are strength and con based anyway.
Clerics get Enhance Ability and/or Guidance. They can fill skill rolls very effectively. They aren't leaving the other Str classes in the dust, but they do the job just fine.
All I'm saying is that if your party is dex-fighter / wizard / warlock, all of which frequently dump Str, you have a much stronger incentive to go Str vs Dex. You will bring higher AC to help you frontline and skills and options that your party lacks. The cost is a slightly lower initiative and being worse at skills that your other party members are focusing anyways.
Clerics also have things like Bless to affect saving throws which is a common spell to cast. Which does help to do things like Cover dex and/or strength a bit when it comes to saves
But Note. I never argued that Strength Builds are better. Just that they are a completely viable cleric build alternative. Where as others were taking the stance that there was only one way to build clerics and that was with dex.
Also I want to point out that The extra effects that come with strength saves are something to keep in mind (as mentioned previously by others) though they do get overlooked a lot. Most of them do things like make it so you can't escape if you need to, make it difficult to fight back, or make it so that you are easier to hit and thus take more damage. This is not true of most dex saves that are a difference between full and half damage or full and no damage in a number of instances though a few do inflict things like prone as well. While Damage is a significant thing. Let's keep in mind that of all the classes. The Cleric is the one most designed at it's core to actually deal with the issue of loss of hp.
And on a little side note. Barbarians don't actually have a dex requirement. They can wear up to medium armor and still fully function in most if not all cases, which can get them as high as 15 AC with a dex no higher than 10 and can get that to 17 with as little as 14 dex and no magical bonuses, with bonuses they can go a whole lot higher. I'm aware that everybody sees the barbarian and automatically thinks unarmored defense but they do actually have viable alternatives for them as well. Particularly since they are strength and con based anyway.
No, it really isn't. AC is a sucker's bet in the long run, and, with Reckless Attacks, enemies will be hitting them often, anyway. It's why they have resistance to damage while raging.
Most players do because they want the most AC possible should they wear armor, but it's not that crucial. It's a form of outside pressure.
Clerics get Enhance Ability and/or Guidance. They can fill skill rolls very effectively. They aren't leaving the other Str classes in the dust, but they do the job just fine.
All I'm saying is that if your party is dex-fighter / wizard / warlock, all of which frequently dump Str, you have a much stronger incentive to go Str vs Dex. You will bring higher AC to help you frontline and skills and options that your party lacks. The cost is a slightly lower initiative and being worse at skills that your other party members are focusing anyways.
Clerics also have things like Bless to affect saving throws which is a common spell to cast. Which does help to do things like Cover dex and/or strength a bit when it comes to saves
But Note. I never argued that Strength Builds are better. Just that they are a completely viable cleric build alternative. Where as others were taking the stance that there was only one way to build clerics and that was with dex.
Also I want to point out that The extra effects that come with strength saves are something to keep in mind (as mentioned previously by others) though they do get overlooked a lot. Most of them do things like make it so you can't escape if you need to, make it difficult to fight back, or make it so that you are easier to hit and thus take more damage. This is not true of most dex saves that are a difference between full and half damage or full and no damage in a number of instances though a few do inflict things like prone as well. While Damage is a significant thing. Let's keep in mind that of all the classes. The Cleric is the one most designed at it's core to actually deal with the issue of loss of hp.
And on a little side note. Barbarians don't actually have a dex requirement. They can wear up to medium armor and still fully function in most if not all cases, which can get them as high as 15 AC with a dex no higher than 10 and can get that to 17 with as little as 14 dex and no magical bonuses, with bonuses they can go a whole lot higher. I'm aware that everybody sees the barbarian and automatically thinks unarmored defense but they do actually have viable alternatives for them as well. Particularly since they are strength and con based anyway.
14 Dex is for sure a dex requirement....
Just sayin
I rolled a barbarian in my last campaign, only had 13 dex because I chose GWM instead of an ASI (and would have gone strength anyway). I had a half-orc zealot with 16 strength and 16 constitution. We ended at level 6, though we might start back up with the same characters after we try a few more classes. I was the only melee character and was often the only one that took damage unless AoEs were in effect. Until 3rd, I had a shield but felt comfortable after that with medium armor and my HP. Shortly thereafter, I did pick up a Ring of Protection, which certainly helped, and did get a Dragonguard at 6th level just before we finished. I even went all of Cragmaw Castle only raging once. I was switching between my Greataxe and Hew depending on whether we were in the forest areas (greataxe, since the trees made me feel really uncomfortable when I was wielding Hew as opposed to just carrying it) or in a confined area like lower ceilinged narrower halls (Hew, because it was a little smaller and easier to wield). Likewise, I would pull out Hew and attack 1 handed with it if I was carrying my greataxe and wanted a better chance to hit putting away the greataxe to swing Hew two handed on the next turn. I usually wouldn't put Hew away mid-combat just to enable power attacks from GWM.
I probably would have increased my constitution before increasing dexterity unless I would have chosen Slasher feat, but that would have been more about maximizing the feat than needing the AC. It's definitely not a requirement to go 14 dex for medium armor on a barbarian. It makes more sense depending on your magic items as you level, but there are other properties.
Moving this to War Cleric, I would suggest that a similar tactic is beneficial. If you are planning on doing most of your damage through melee, prioritizing your attack stat over wisdom might be a good idea. Not exclusively, but enough to keep your melee attacks effective. Depending on your spell choices, you can go exclusive, but that does preclude Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians from being effective. Those are really effective in melee range where a War Cleric wants to be and that suggests a more balanced approach to increasing ASIs. Getting Dex or Str accomplishes maximizing AC and melee damage. Positioning helps minimize damage regardless of saves, since you are less likely to be targeted by an AOE if you aren't close to allies that are dealing high amounts of damage. Being close to creatures with AOEs but away from allies could incentivize attacks that your higher AC could deflect. Inevitably, a smart enemy will target you with dex saves if they have then available, but only if you are a higher priority target than another PC. This suggests that clearing enemies quickly is a good way to reduce damage taken and the 1-2 damage per swing of a strength build can help that goal as that damage adds up over time.
That is part of the trade off for going dex vs str. It's not enough of a difference to be able to say that one is clearly superior to the other, even if dex is superior in a white room vacuum. Other factors will play in, such as party composition, magic item balance, and personal preference.
As for War Cleric itself, the bonus attacks are great for when you want a little more oomph but don't want to use a spell on spiritual weapon. The channel divinity is much like grave's path to the Grave, giving a sizable damage increase. The difference is that path to the Grave works on any attack where Guided Strike ensures THIS attack hits. If you only have one heavy hitter or single character buffs, Guided Strike is much better, multiple character buffs with multiple heavy hitters will prefer path to the grave.
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Any cleric with heavy armor proficiency (and even some without) is clearly viable with both Str and Dex. Str clerics aren't some niche build like Str Wizard. You don't need to drastically change your playstyle, or pick specific races like Tortle. And while I think there is an argument that Dex is a bit better in a vacuum, we don't play in a vacuum. I think your party comp matters.
Having at least one high party member with decent STR is useful. If your party lacks one, building your cleric with Str can help overcome certain obstacles that you would otherwise struggle with. Barricading passages, forcing open heavy doors, climbing or swimming in difficult conditions, carrying heavy things, etc. Its also good to have at least one character that can grabble in combat. Other Str classes are better than a cleric because they get multiple attacks, but without one of them in your party, a Str Cleric is your best bet. Lastly, a frontliner is good to have, and the +1 (or +2 from forge) AC from a Str cleric is better for front lining than a slight initiative boost, IMO.
Finally, in terms of saving throws, I'm not sure that Dex automatically the better save. Dex has more effects (though the numbers presented can be misleading), but almost all dex saves are against damage only. Meanwhile, Str often includes damage and other effects, like prone, restraint, or being launched through the air. These effects can be more impactful than raw damage.
You can't really focus on DEX if you pick heavy armor as you need STR 16 to get the best heavy armor.
Minor conditions < HP for me....I can get out of óprone/grappled by myself... It's very hard to get up from 0 by myself.
If you are relying on the Cleric for Athletic checks that's pretty sad state. So many other classes can be better off thanks to expertise, rage, or basically having features that actually have benefit from having STR.
Overall as stated it's up to you but STR is generally less benefital overall in this edition
Only two classes, bard and rogue, grant expertise. A valor bard or thief rogue might choose to take expertise in Athletics, but I don't see others doing it. And if you're expending a use of rage to climb, swim, jump a gap, or break a door down then more power to you. But it's not generally something seen.
Strength and Athletics both have a lot of uses. I went into considerable detail on the previous page. And there's nothing wrong with a cleric who has a decent Strength score and proficiency in Athletics. It's a tool at their disposal, and they can get it from their background. Starting with a +4 is still pretty good, and reaching Tier 4 with a +9 isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.
As with any choices people make with their characters, YMMV.
EDIT: I'm linking below what I typed out before.
Ranger now gets expertise at first level and TBF anyone can now thanks to Tasha's.
Unfortunately STR/ATH have A LOT less uses than the other combined skills of Dexterity. The fact you have 4 skills and Initiative tied to its just objectively more.
Overall its easier to just go with DEX 14 and get the maximum benefit of Medium Armor than go STR 15 (lets be real STR 16 as its hard to just odd scores) to get Plate (1500 gp!)
I do not knock those who do though...as flavor is a huge part of this game obviously and STR feels better on some builds (War/Tempest)
I'm not sure why that would be a sad state to have a cleric be your Str class. Aside from grappling, they are easily just as effective at dealing with Str based obstacles as a Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, or Str Ranger. Rogue/Bard Athletics expertise is pretty damn rare.
Barbarian no as they have ADV on STR based checks/saves in rage. Also Barbarians need DEX for AC anyway so they are already investing in DEX.
Paladin has Oath of Glory that has a Channel Divinity that grants ADV on ATH checks.....but I also think Dex based paladins are better anyway.
Fighter I agree with....however they have much better reason in general for going STR as they have more builds that rely on it (GWM Battlemaster, Cavalier, Echo knight, etc...) so investing in STR is not really a bad call there as you are fueling more with it.
STR Ranger is kind of a meme unforunately....as you don't get access to Heavy armor you have to rely on 14 Dex anyway for medium armor so you really are just doing both much like barbarians.
Expertise is actually super unrare thanks to Tashas now which is actually a point towards STR the more I think about it. Any race can get Expertise in ATH which sure helps.
Don't treat optional class features and feats as making something "super unrare" as if they are something everyone should, or must, have on their characters. They're not.
Clerics get Enhance Ability and/or Guidance. They can fill skill rolls very effectively. They aren't leaving the other Str classes in the dust, but they do the job just fine.
All I'm saying is that if your party is dex-fighter / wizard / warlock, all of which frequently dump Str, you have a much stronger incentive to go Str vs Dex. You will bring higher AC to help you frontline and skills and options that your party lacks. The cost is a slightly lower initiative and being worse at skills that your other party members are focusing anyways.
I listed no "optional class features"....did you mean Subclass features? All the features I mentioned are subclass features. Sans barbarian which rage is a core class feature.
If so thats an odd distinction to make as war cleric's heavy armor prof. is a subclass feature and is one of the only ways to make a pure STR cleric work....so if you want to invalidate subclass options as a talking point then you would also do away with the only real way to do a STR cleric as well.
The feats point actually gives more validity to the cleric as I suggested it can be taken by a STR cleric to make them more in line with the others subclass features.
I am not sure if you meant to discredit that part as it was supporting your side?
As for guidance/enhance ability that is a fair point. They do get some built in class options to boost their skill checks for STR. My only thing would be the other classes I mentioned have other reasons to pick STR (Barbarian Rage damage only works for STR, Cavalier uses STR mod for subclass features, etc...) but again I never said a STR cleric isn't viable its just worse than a DEX cleric overall.
The reason why I brought up our dex Cleric's dex fails wasn't to point out anything about a strength Cleric's superiority, just that there's no guarantee that going dex build will guarantee that you'll succeed. Three of the cleric's most notable "fails" were actually dex related or because he dumped strength: the wolf proning him, failing the Fireball save (he didn't go down, but he almost did), and falling in a pit as a trap gave way.
That's not to say that the cleric would have been better as a strength based one (definitely not, since he was a grave cleric) or that the cleric was a failure (it was his first character and he was actually feeling like it was OP).
Dex is good enough that I would recommend using no lower than a 10 if you are going to dump it. A 12 isn't out of the question for wisdom based characters that are grabbing strength and aren't needing charisma for any reason. But even an 8 won't doom you under the majority of circumstances. For War Clerics, the majority of the benefits that dexterity will give you will likely be secondary or tertiary at best. Dex characters are more common and thus someone else will likely be better equipped at sleight of hand, stealth, and acrobatics than you. Initiative is important generally, but there aren't any mechanical reasons for the war cleric to stress about it more than others. Having Dex can be beneficial, but it's less likely for you to have the highest dex than it is for you to have the highest strength.
Overall, the importance of going once over the other isn't going to change a bunch about the campaign, since neither score will be high enough to make a significant difference. The exception would be for multiclass purposes, or if you needed one to be a certain value for a feat. The amount of damage that you save or deal via either is not likely to be enough difference to stress about going with one because it's more optimal. However, if you want to go with the more optimal choice, you'll probably want to go with dexterity.
Yes, you did. Ranger's don't automatically get Expertise. It's an optional feature presented in Tasha's.
Fair point.... But I also called STR ranger a meme so there's that lol.
Ranger is even worse for ATH as they don't get heavy armor.
Overall cleric does have some ways to help as mentioned (guidance/enhance ability) which does help. However the other benefits of DEX still make it better for cleric but STR Cleric is viable
Ok so even a 20 DEX rogue could go down to a failed Dex save....
The point being +3 to a save is dramatically better odds at success.
Anyone CAN fail anything but it's weird to say that is a negative?
I didn't say it was a negative. I was pointing out that there are times when it wouldn't matter. +3 is better, but it's only 15% better. I've also said that you can build a strength cleric without dropping dex to 8 as a 10 or 12 is also viable. The cleric doesn't need intelligence or charisma and putting the 8 on either of those vs strength is a matter of preference. Sure, both of those have more skills associated with it, but the saves are less frequent than strength saves. Between Paladins, bards, sorcerers, warlocks and rogues, you'll likely have someone with a better charisma score than a 12. Unless you've got a wizard or an Artificer you're less likely have someone with an intelligence greater than 10, though EKs and ATs also provide options that might have higher int and some other rogues will go with a higher int too.
With a 12 or a 10, your +3 to saves drops to +2 or +1 and still won't keep you from having your strength build. Your charisma save proficiency will keep your charisma saves from being terrible if you are subjected to them. There are options to keeping your dex saves higher other than strength bad, strength 0. Dropping strength to 0 does affect the fewest skills but that's not going to matter unless you are in a solo campaign since others can handle those other responsibilities.
Someone's clutching at straws.
Here allow me, my Knowledge domain Cleric employs as slightly modified version of the Outlander background.
The only difference is swapping the access to a musical instrument with a Herbalist Kit.
So she has Athletics and Survival skills as part of that background, but only has a 12 Strength.
Yes either Str or Dex build can fail, but to pigeon hole circumstances without noticing what else that particular cleric covers as a result of their Background seems a bigger mistake than arguing about their ability scores.
Can we just agree the problem the OP is addressing appears to be more to do with how that player is looking down at that class instead of the real problem they have?
Yeah overall they will be viable as Cleric base class is stronk enough to cover most lower scores. Tbf I have said this multiple times.
Nice thing about knowledge Cleric is the skill proficiency channel divinity which is crazy versatile.
Clerics also have things like Bless to affect saving throws which is a common spell to cast. Which does help to do things like Cover dex and/or strength a bit when it comes to saves
But Note. I never argued that Strength Builds are better. Just that they are a completely viable cleric build alternative. Where as others were taking the stance that there was only one way to build clerics and that was with dex.
Also I want to point out that The extra effects that come with strength saves are something to keep in mind (as mentioned previously by others) though they do get overlooked a lot. Most of them do things like make it so you can't escape if you need to, make it difficult to fight back, or make it so that you are easier to hit and thus take more damage. This is not true of most dex saves that are a difference between full and half damage or full and no damage in a number of instances though a few do inflict things like prone as well. While Damage is a significant thing. Let's keep in mind that of all the classes. The Cleric is the one most designed at it's core to actually deal with the issue of loss of hp.
And on a little side note. Barbarians don't actually have a dex requirement. They can wear up to medium armor and still fully function in most if not all cases, which can get them as high as 15 AC with a dex no higher than 10 and can get that to 17 with as little as 14 dex and no magical bonuses, with bonuses they can go a whole lot higher. I'm aware that everybody sees the barbarian and automatically thinks unarmored defense but they do actually have viable alternatives for them as well. Particularly since they are strength and con based anyway.
14 Dex is for sure a dex requirement....
Just sayin
No, it really isn't. AC is a sucker's bet in the long run, and, with Reckless Attacks, enemies will be hitting them often, anyway. It's why they have resistance to damage while raging.
Most players do because they want the most AC possible should they wear armor, but it's not that crucial. It's a form of outside pressure.
I rolled a barbarian in my last campaign, only had 13 dex because I chose GWM instead of an ASI (and would have gone strength anyway). I had a half-orc zealot with 16 strength and 16 constitution. We ended at level 6, though we might start back up with the same characters after we try a few more classes. I was the only melee character and was often the only one that took damage unless AoEs were in effect. Until 3rd, I had a shield but felt comfortable after that with medium armor and my HP. Shortly thereafter, I did pick up a Ring of Protection, which certainly helped, and did get a Dragonguard at 6th level just before we finished. I even went all of Cragmaw Castle only raging once. I was switching between my Greataxe and Hew depending on whether we were in the forest areas (greataxe, since the trees made me feel really uncomfortable when I was wielding Hew as opposed to just carrying it) or in a confined area like lower ceilinged narrower halls (Hew, because it was a little smaller and easier to wield). Likewise, I would pull out Hew and attack 1 handed with it if I was carrying my greataxe and wanted a better chance to hit putting away the greataxe to swing Hew two handed on the next turn. I usually wouldn't put Hew away mid-combat just to enable power attacks from GWM.
I probably would have increased my constitution before increasing dexterity unless I would have chosen Slasher feat, but that would have been more about maximizing the feat than needing the AC. It's definitely not a requirement to go 14 dex for medium armor on a barbarian. It makes more sense depending on your magic items as you level, but there are other properties.
Moving this to War Cleric, I would suggest that a similar tactic is beneficial. If you are planning on doing most of your damage through melee, prioritizing your attack stat over wisdom might be a good idea. Not exclusively, but enough to keep your melee attacks effective. Depending on your spell choices, you can go exclusive, but that does preclude Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians from being effective. Those are really effective in melee range where a War Cleric wants to be and that suggests a more balanced approach to increasing ASIs. Getting Dex or Str accomplishes maximizing AC and melee damage. Positioning helps minimize damage regardless of saves, since you are less likely to be targeted by an AOE if you aren't close to allies that are dealing high amounts of damage. Being close to creatures with AOEs but away from allies could incentivize attacks that your higher AC could deflect. Inevitably, a smart enemy will target you with dex saves if they have then available, but only if you are a higher priority target than another PC. This suggests that clearing enemies quickly is a good way to reduce damage taken and the 1-2 damage per swing of a strength build can help that goal as that damage adds up over time.
That is part of the trade off for going dex vs str. It's not enough of a difference to be able to say that one is clearly superior to the other, even if dex is superior in a white room vacuum. Other factors will play in, such as party composition, magic item balance, and personal preference.
As for War Cleric itself, the bonus attacks are great for when you want a little more oomph but don't want to use a spell on spiritual weapon. The channel divinity is much like grave's path to the Grave, giving a sizable damage increase. The difference is that path to the Grave works on any attack where Guided Strike ensures THIS attack hits. If you only have one heavy hitter or single character buffs, Guided Strike is much better, multiple character buffs with multiple heavy hitters will prefer path to the grave.