I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
Some clerics are reactive heavy...some never use it.
Light will use it a lot but War is not one using their reaction much beyond a possible AoO but that goes for anyone.
I will second the fact that Dex is just a straight better stat in 5e though as it is much much more universally viable than STR.
If you forgo dragons then STR has about 102 monster ability saves vs DEX 124 saves.
Conclusion: Dex Wins-Not as much a difference than spells but still more for DEX
SKILLS
Skills associated with DEX: Stealth, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Initiative
Skills associated with STR: Athletics
Conclusion: DEX Wins as more skills are associated with DEX vs. STR
MISC
Dexterity handles AC as well as some DCs (Battle Master)
Strength handles carry capacity and jump distance.
Conclusion: This one is about a tie I would say depending on your class/subclass.
EDIT:
I forgot about RANGED ATTACKS! A dex player will do the same damage at range with their dex weapon (d8 rapier and d8 longbow) vs a STR character (2d6 Maul and 1d6 javelin). Also they get MUCH greater distance (150 ft longbow vs 30 ft Javelin)
Conclusion: Dex wins handily
So why does this matter for War Cleric?
War cleric is not one who will benefit greatly from using a STR weapon vs a DEX weapon...especially since the damage output on a sword/board build will be 100% the same (Rapier d8 vs. Longsword d8) and if you are using a 2 handed weapon you are looking at an average of about 2 points or so of damage extra with a maul (2d6 = 7 average) vs a rapier (d8 = 4.5). Since you only ever do one attack this is the maximum you will hope to gain. You also forgo 2 points of AC by not having a shield out....
So it begs the question....do you want to give up the other inherent benefits of DEX to do 2 points of damage on a turn?
For me its an easy answer....I would never build a STR War Cleric unless I was multiclassing into a build that eventually got more attacks.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
I realize that you are mis-quoting me. IamSpotsa is the one who said that going first is not important to clerics, and I disagree with that.
Because round 1 is important in a standard encounter that lasts ~3 rounds. it's not going to make or break healing, but throwing out a buff for your teammates to attack with bonuses on round 1 can make a significant difference to their damage output. So again, outside the edge case of using 2h melee weapons (which I think we can all figure out what my opinion of /that/ idea is in general), dex is > str for clerics. Str gives you heavy armor without penalty which I think is totally overrated, and crap skills and saves. Dex gives you a variety of things, for 1 less AC than equivalent tier of heavy armor would. 1AC is better than a sharp stick in the eye, but I'd rather have better init, skills and saves, even if I was a front liner (which I already said imo is a bad idea)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Imagine you're facing a group of crossbow armed bandits using a wagon blocking a bridge across a ravine.
Your cleric going first due to a lucky roll and a 15 Dex (+2) decides to ask if they can use Thaumaturgy to provide his group cover from ranged fire by causing flashes of lightning to give the attackers disadvantage to hit them (Yes that happened and it worked!).
Or if they're 5th level confronting a group of enemies perhaps undead and going first they cast Spirit Guardians meaning their charging foes upon entering 30' of them have to make a Wisdom save to take half damage of 3d8 radiant let alone having their remaining movement halved as long as they remain within 30' of the caster unless the caster drops the spell or fails a Concentration check due to damage.
Or the fact if they start within that field at the start of their next round they will need to make that saving throw again just to suffer half damage again as long as that spell is running.
You never know just how vital that initiative advantage is until you face a serious enough situation that advantage might spell the difference between most of the party going down due to the DM rolling really well due to pack tactics giving him advantage on those attacks and the cleric neutralizing that advantage when its truly vital.
The less damage taken by your party means that healing your character has limited amounts of lasts a mite longer.
And turning undead before they can act means one or more less foes to fight each round.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
Some clerics are reactive heavy...some never use it.
Light will use it a lot but War is not one using their reaction much beyond a possible AoO but that goes for anyone.
I will second the fact that Dex is just a straight better stat in 5e though as it is much much more universally viable than STR.
If you forgo dragons then STR has about 102 monster ability saves vs DEX 124 saves.
Conclusion: Dex Wins-Not as much a difference than spells but still more for DEX
SKILLS
Skills associated with DEX: Stealth, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Initiative
Skills associated with STR: Athletics
Conclusion: DEX Wins as more skills are associated with DEX vs. STR
MISC
Dexterity handles AC as well as some DCs (Battle Master)
Strength handles carry capacity and jump distance.
Conclusion: This one is about a tie I would say depending on your class/subclass.
EDIT:
I forgot about RANGED ATTACKS! A dex player will do the same damage at range with their dex weapon (d8 rapier and d8 longbow) vs a STR character (2d6 Maul and 1d6 javelin). Also they get MUCH greater distance (150 ft longbow vs 30 ft Javelin)
Conclusion: Dex wins handily
So why does this matter for War Cleric?
War cleric is not one who will benefit greatly from using a STR weapon vs a DEX weapon...especially since the damage output on a sword/board build will be 100% the same (Rapier d8 vs. Longsword d8) and if you are using a 2 handed weapon you are looking at an average of about 2 points or so of damage extra with a maul (2d6 = 7 average) vs a rapier (d8 = 4.5). Since you only ever do one attack this is the maximum you will hope to gain. You also forgo 2 points of AC by not having a shield out....
So it begs the question....do you want to give up the other inherent benefits of DEX to do 2 points of damage on a turn?
For me its an easy answer....I would never build a STR War Cleric unless I was multiclassing into a build that eventually got more attacks.
REactive does not mean requires using the Reaction. Your mixing a concept with a basic mechanic. They are two different things. Reactive means not just using reactions but also responding to the situation at hand.
Also your attempt to look right by numbers does not invalidate a comment i've made twice now. There are other ways to deal with Dex Saves. There are not a dirth of other ways to deal with strength saves. So your Conclusion is faulty. It's heavily assumptive and it ignores a number of variables. For example that dex character may not have access to that longbow your seeking to get the same damage out of. Plenty of them are restricted to the short bow which is d6 damage instead or might have to rely more on crossbows and have to deal with the loading property dictating how they use their ranged weapon. Your also ignoring the Yklwa which is a d8 thrown weapon for strength characters to be able to use instead should they so choose. Just as some examples.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
I realize that you are mis-quoting me. IamSpotsa is the one who said that going first is not important to clerics, and I disagree with that.
Because round 1 is important in a standard encounter that lasts ~3 rounds. it's not going to make or break healing, but throwing out a buff for your teammates to attack with bonuses on round 1 can make a significant difference to their damage output. So again, outside the edge case of using 2h melee weapons (which I think we can all figure out what my opinion of /that/ idea is in general), dex is > str for clerics. Str gives you heavy armor without penalty which I think is totally overrated, and crap skills and saves. Dex gives you a variety of things, for 1 less AC than equivalent tier of heavy armor would. 1AC is better than a sharp stick in the eye, but I'd rather have better init, skills and saves, even if I was a front liner (which I already said imo is a bad idea)
I'm not misquoting you. Top of page 3. What IamSposta said is that there are reasons to want to go slower. Your immediate response is "I can just do that stuff on round 2 and Initiative does not matter after the first round.
Also all these limits your putting on Clerics is on you.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Imagine you're facing a group of crossbow armed bandits using a wagon blocking a bridge across a ravine.
Your cleric going first due to a lucky roll and a 15 Dex (+2) decides to ask if they can use Thaumaturgy to provide his group cover from ranged fire by causing flashes of lightning to give the attackers disadvantage to hit them (Yes that happened and it worked!).
Or if they're 5th level confronting a group of enemies perhaps undead and going first they cast Spirit Guardians meaning their charging foes upon entering 30' of them have to make a Wisdom save to take half damage of 3d8 radiant let alone having their remaining movement halved as long as they remain within 30' of the caster unless the caster drops the spell or fails a Concentration check due to damage.
Or the fact if they start within that field at the start of their next round they will need to make that saving throw again just to suffer half damage again as long as that spell is running.
You never know just how vital that initiative advantage is until you face a serious enough situation that advantage might spell the difference between most of the party going down due to the DM rolling really well due to pack tactics giving him advantage on those attacks and the cleric neutralizing that advantage when its truly vital.
The less damage taken by your party means that healing your character has limited amounts of lasts a mite longer.
And turning undead before they can act means one or more less foes to fight each round.
the use of Thaumaturgy while an excellent use of the rule of Cool is actually a bit outside of what the spell is capable of. Considering it only has a bunch of non-mechanical flavor affects that it is capable of. So it is something to keep in mind when bringing forth reasons like this. But besides that please keep in mind. A cleric is rarely likely to outspeed a dex based archer which has put primary focus instead of secondary focus into their Dexterity and may or may not have feats or other abilities that allow them to act even faster. So that lucky roll even on a dex based cleric often still needs to be a lucky roll rather than an expectation since even if he rolls the same as the archers he still loses. He has to absolutely beat them on Initiative. And that is ignoring that some can make the argument that there is precedent in the game that lighting yourself up with lights, Even flashing ones, Would actually make you easier to hit by ranged enemies so instead of disadvantage you could give the enemies advantage. (Note Also, I do still like this creative use and rule of Cool factor attempt here. But there is a lot that does not make it guaranteed. At my tables it would have required a roll of some kind to see what kind of affect it had and could have ranged form lucky and helpful to very detrimental depending on the roll.)
The undead situation makes a lot of assumptions that could just as easily be dealt with after the fact. It assumes that they are close enough for the spell to hit them first turn when they do make their move instead of being close enough to be moved into and affected by going after them. It assumes that they do not have ranged weapons to use (a fair number of undead actually do). It assumes that the undead are slow which not all of them are. And if they are that close to be affected that easily. Then why aren't you potentially turning undead instead because there is a decent chance at level 5 that you may or may not be dealing with a horde of something you can potentially just destroy outright rather than worrying about them approaching you and having to deal damage with spirit guardians. You have the ability to potentially destroy CR1/2 at level 5. It also assumes that none of the undead your dealing with are intelligent when there are actually a number of intelligent undead once you get past skeletons and zombies which aren't really anything more than undead cannon fodder and army filler anyway. It also assumes that the encounter isn't started by Ambush which is actually one of the most common scripted and DM used ways to spring undead upon the party in which initiative doesn't matter as much as your perception (which is wisdom) because getting to act on the ambush round can be more important than acting quickly in the following round. There's nothing about this situation that makes going first Particularly advantageous except in niche situations.
However all these situations are things that the Cleric is very good at responding to and taking what the enemy did to his advantage as well and do not necessarily require that dexterity and initiative boost to accomplish.
That's referring to getting someone up with heals.
if a player gets dropped on round 1, and I have not had my turn yet, this fight is already in a very bad place.
You can heal people before they actually get dropped fully. And indeed sometimes you want to. Specially since Enemies are often just as prone to blowing their big attacks in the first couple rounds as players are. Meaning if you weather them and then heal the damage back up you have already beaten a decent part of the threat of the encounter. Letting the ally go down can actually mess with action economy by potentially missing their turn between when you go and when the enemies go. This is why for a cleric it can often be useful to be at the back of initiative order. Because it puts less chance of allies initiatives being between yours and the average enemy and often allows you to go right after or shortly after the general enemy to counter what they have done. Certain very quick monsters not withstanding (or certain extremely slow ones).
That's referring to getting someone up with heals.
if a player gets dropped on round 1, and I have not had my turn yet, this fight is already in a very bad place.
Yeah, but if the combat is over quickly it won’t matter either way what your initiative is most of the time. But when the combat goes on for a while, being able to pick your allies in the bottom of the round so they are ready to go on their turn at the top of the next round matters. It’s all about teamwork.
I don't see the point to debate this any more. I'm clearly not going to convince anyone, and you're certainly not going to convince me. Time to just move on out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That's referring to getting someone up with heals.
if a player gets dropped on round 1, and I have not had my turn yet, this fight is already in a very bad place.
Yeah, but if the combat is over quickly it won’t matter either way what your initiative is most of the time. But when the combat goes on for a while, being able to pick your allies in the bottom of the round so they are ready to go on their turn at the top of the next round matters. It’s all about teamwork.
If combat goes on for a while, then your place in the initiative irrelevant. The bottom of round 6 is basically the same as the top of round 7 as it pertains to healing (lair actions excluded).
That's referring to getting someone up with heals.
if a player gets dropped on round 1, and I have not had my turn yet, this fight is already in a very bad place.
Yeah, but if the combat is over quickly it won’t matter either way what your initiative is most of the time. But when the combat goes on for a while, being able to pick your allies in the bottom of the round so they are ready to go on their turn at the top of the next round matters. It’s all about teamwork.
If combat goes on for a while, then your place in the initiative irrelevant. The bottom of round 6 is basically the same as the top of round 7 as it pertains to healing (lair actions excluded).
Yeah pretty much it doesn't really matter after the first round.
Dexterity skills for clerics aren't usually going to be a high priority. Stealth with disadvantage with most medium armor and all non magical heavy armor can work, but usually doesn't. Sleight of hand isn't usually a cleric skill and acrobatics is often just as good as athletics for escaping grapples. The other uses may make it more useful, but that seems to be the common one. This is very character specific about whether dex or str isc superior for the character.
Dexterity saves are a different matter, but strength saves are the most common lesser save. This is still advantage dexterity saves because it is a major save. However, without proficiency or at least advantage, the difference between a +2 and a -1 will only be a factor for about 15% of rolls, all others would save or fail either way.
Initiative by its nature is all over the place and the difference between a +2 and a -1 isn't a major difference for the first round. Going closer to first is nice for buffs, including certain channel divinty options (our grave cleric managed a early turn for two noteworthy encounters, one where he used path of the grave before the rogue critted on the owlbear in Cragmaw castle to one shot the creature and one where he was able to destroy undead to clear a room of enemies turn one). In both instances it saved a lot of time and resources. However, using a buff when someone casts shatter and clears out the majority of a pack means that the cleric wasted a spell slot. Overall, I'd say it's a wash, especially since there aren't many if any cleric mechanics that rely on going first and that only really matters during turn 1. Special exception for if your party is surprised, since going sooner is more likely to keep you from being attacked with advantage even if you don't get to act round 1 and it does get reactions online sooner.
Overall, I think it's a wash for clerics in general and will depend on the personal tactics and preferences of the player. I know that crzyhawk has their preferences from other conversations and that's 100% fine even with the ones that I disagree about. This one is definitely more character dependent for me and I'd play a character on either side of the scale.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
Some clerics are reactive heavy...some never use it.
Light will use it a lot but War is not one using their reaction much beyond a possible AoO but that goes for anyone.
I will second the fact that Dex is just a straight better stat in 5e though as it is much much more universally viable than STR.
If you forgo dragons then STR has about 102 monster ability saves vs DEX 124 saves.
Conclusion: Dex Wins-Not as much a difference than spells but still more for DEX
SKILLS
Skills associated with DEX: Stealth, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Initiative
Skills associated with STR: Athletics
Conclusion: DEX Wins as more skills are associated with DEX vs. STR
MISC
Dexterity handles AC as well as some DCs (Battle Master)
Strength handles carry capacity and jump distance.
Conclusion: This one is about a tie I would say depending on your class/subclass.
EDIT:
I forgot about RANGED ATTACKS! A dex player will do the same damage at range with their dex weapon (d8 rapier and d8 longbow) vs a STR character (2d6 Maul and 1d6 javelin). Also they get MUCH greater distance (150 ft longbow vs 30 ft Javelin)
Conclusion: Dex wins handily
So why does this matter for War Cleric?
War cleric is not one who will benefit greatly from using a STR weapon vs a DEX weapon...especially since the damage output on a sword/board build will be 100% the same (Rapier d8 vs. Longsword d8) and if you are using a 2 handed weapon you are looking at an average of about 2 points or so of damage extra with a maul (2d6 = 7 average) vs a rapier (d8 = 4.5). Since you only ever do one attack this is the maximum you will hope to gain. You also forgo 2 points of AC by not having a shield out....
So it begs the question....do you want to give up the other inherent benefits of DEX to do 2 points of damage on a turn?
For me its an easy answer....I would never build a STR War Cleric unless I was multiclassing into a build that eventually got more attacks.
REactive does not mean requires using the Reaction. Your mixing a concept with a basic mechanic. They are two different things. Reactive means not just using reactions but also responding to the situation at hand.
Also your attempt to look right by numbers does not invalidate a comment i've made twice now. There are other ways to deal with Dex Saves. There are not a dirth of other ways to deal with strength saves. So your Conclusion is faulty. It's heavily assumptive and it ignores a number of variables. For example that dex character may not have access to that longbow your seeking to get the same damage out of. Plenty of them are restricted to the short bow which is d6 damage instead or might have to rely more on crossbows and have to deal with the loading property dictating how they use their ranged weapon. Your also ignoring the Yklwa which is a d8 thrown weapon for strength characters to be able to use instead should they so choose. Just as some examples.
You make a lot of claims but show no work....How do you plan to work around dex saves? Shield master is one way but you have to be able to put the effect of the spell between you and the shield which not every effect will allow.
I at least attempted to make a case on why DEX is just a better stat in 5e in general.
By the numbers its the case as you have more skills, more saves, and more options (ranged and melee attacks) as I stated. Also...not have access to a longbow? Its a basic marital item and would be one of the easiest items to get basically anywhere? Its then hilarious that you mention the Yklwa as an option as its basically available nowhere but Chult lol...and you can throw it a wowing 10 ft which is basically nothing.
Why would most clerics care about loading property? They will never get more than 1 attack per turn anyway.
Really War cleric is the only one who would care about it and they can just use a longbow.
Yes you can negate STR Saves in a lot of ways...one is being far away as the VAST majority of STR saves come from grapple/restrains/prone from melee attacks from low level enemies like Dire Wolves. So you can....just not be close to them.
Later on you get spells like Freedom of Movement which makes the VAST majority of STR saves pretty much ignorable. Also a good majority of them are to prevent being knocked prone...while this is a bad time its low in comparison to Dex which has a TON which are straight damage.
Overall its sad to say but STR is inherently dumpable in 90% of builds in which Cleric, yes even war cleric, is the case.
Dexterity skills for clerics aren't usually going to be a high priority. Stealth with disadvantage with most medium armor and all non magical heavy armor can work, but usually doesn't. Sleight of hand isn't usually a cleric skill and acrobatics is often just as good as athletics for escaping grapples. The other uses may make it more useful, but that seems to be the common one. This is very character specific about whether dex or str isc superior for the character.
Dexterity saves are a different matter, but strength saves are the most common lesser save. This is still advantage dexterity saves because it is a major save. However, without proficiency or at least advantage, the difference between a +2 and a -1 will only be a factor for about 15% of rolls, all others would save or fail either way.
Initiative by its nature is all over the place and the difference between a +2 and a -1 isn't a major difference for the first round. Going closer to first is nice for buffs, including certain channel divinty options (our grave cleric managed a early turn for two noteworthy encounters, one where he used path of the grave before the rogue critted on the owlbear in Cragmaw castle to one shot the creature and one where he was able to destroy undead to clear a room of enemies turn one). In both instances it saved a lot of time and resources. However, using a buff when someone casts shatter and clears out the majority of a pack means that the cleric wasted a spell slot. Overall, I'd say it's a wash, especially since there aren't many if any cleric mechanics that rely on going first and that only really matters during turn 1. Special exception for if your party is surprised, since going sooner is more likely to keep you from being attacked with advantage even if you don't get to act round 1 and it does get reactions online sooner.
Overall, I think it's a wash for clerics in general and will depend on the personal tactics and preferences of the player. I know that crzyhawk has their preferences from other conversations and that's 100% fine even with the ones that I disagree about. This one is definitely more character dependent for me and I'd play a character on either side of the scale.
The major issue is that Dex skills come up far far more often than STR skills (as there is just one) and with bounded accuracy there is a huge difference between +2 and -1. That last part is the just math of the system.
You are correct in the part about preference though as it just feels good to play a strong character which I understand completely (having played a goliath tempest cleric in a one shot trust me I understand) but with a long view its hard to say STR is AS GOOD as DEX....which is fine.
Knowing what you are getting into is the real issue. I hate it when people say "Its the same" when its not...just be honest and give people the honest answer that yes STR is weaker in this system ironically but you shouldn't just be picking your character on the power of your build but how it works for you. If you understand that STR builds will have less versatility than DEX builds but you still want to do it...thats awesome and you can do you!
Being honest about the builds is important as well though so people can make informed decisions.
Exactly, and that's why I am not really participating in this discussion any more. He keeps saying dex provides no value. I listed places where dex /does/ provide value. He says those are not important, yet refuses to provide reasons why str offers anything at all other than 2h weapons and +1 AC from heavy armor. If you're weapon and shield, 2h weapon is irrelevant, and that brings you down to a 1AC bonus, str saves, and athletics checks.
In my experience, I use dex abilities (such as acrobatics) more than I use athletics. I use stealth more than I use athletics, even if it's at disadvantage (much like heavy armor). I use init every combat. I don't remember the last time I needed to make an actual athletics check, and I value those skills and init far more than I value 1 AC from heavy armor. heavy armor /only/ allows me to dump dex, at the price of forcing me to pump str instead, unless I am an overpowered dwarf or accept a further speed penalty.
Strength is flatly inferior to dexterity, EXCEPT when using 2h weapons or barbarian abilities.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
Some clerics are reactive heavy...some never use it.
Light will use it a lot but War is not one using their reaction much beyond a possible AoO but that goes for anyone.
I will second the fact that Dex is just a straight better stat in 5e though as it is much much more universally viable than STR.
If you forgo dragons then STR has about 102 monster ability saves vs DEX 124 saves.
Conclusion: Dex Wins-Not as much a difference than spells but still more for DEX
SKILLS
Skills associated with DEX: Stealth, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Initiative
Skills associated with STR: Athletics
Conclusion: DEX Wins as more skills are associated with DEX vs. STR
MISC
Dexterity handles AC as well as some DCs (Battle Master)
Strength handles carry capacity and jump distance.
Conclusion: This one is about a tie I would say depending on your class/subclass.
EDIT:
I forgot about RANGED ATTACKS! A dex player will do the same damage at range with their dex weapon (d8 rapier and d8 longbow) vs a STR character (2d6 Maul and 1d6 javelin). Also they get MUCH greater distance (150 ft longbow vs 30 ft Javelin)
Conclusion: Dex wins handily
So why does this matter for War Cleric?
War cleric is not one who will benefit greatly from using a STR weapon vs a DEX weapon...especially since the damage output on a sword/board build will be 100% the same (Rapier d8 vs. Longsword d8) and if you are using a 2 handed weapon you are looking at an average of about 2 points or so of damage extra with a maul (2d6 = 7 average) vs a rapier (d8 = 4.5). Since you only ever do one attack this is the maximum you will hope to gain. You also forgo 2 points of AC by not having a shield out....
So it begs the question....do you want to give up the other inherent benefits of DEX to do 2 points of damage on a turn?
For me its an easy answer....I would never build a STR War Cleric unless I was multiclassing into a build that eventually got more attacks.
REactive does not mean requires using the Reaction. Your mixing a concept with a basic mechanic. They are two different things. Reactive means not just using reactions but also responding to the situation at hand.
Also your attempt to look right by numbers does not invalidate a comment i've made twice now. There are other ways to deal with Dex Saves. There are not a dirth of other ways to deal with strength saves. So your Conclusion is faulty. It's heavily assumptive and it ignores a number of variables. For example that dex character may not have access to that longbow your seeking to get the same damage out of. Plenty of them are restricted to the short bow which is d6 damage instead or might have to rely more on crossbows and have to deal with the loading property dictating how they use their ranged weapon. Your also ignoring the Yklwa which is a d8 thrown weapon for strength characters to be able to use instead should they so choose. Just as some examples.
You make a lot of claims but show no work....How do you plan to work around dex saves? Shield master is one way but you have to be able to put the effect of the spell between you and the shield which not every effect will allow.
I at least attempted to make a case on why DEX is just a better stat in 5e in general.
By the numbers its the case as you have more skills, more saves, and more options (ranged and melee attacks) as I stated. Also...not have access to a longbow? Its a basic marital item and would be one of the easiest items to get basically anywhere? Its then hilarious that you mention the Yklwa as an option as its basically available nowhere but Chult lol...and you can throw it a wowing 10 ft which is basically nothing.
Why would most clerics care about loading property? They will never get more than 1 attack per turn anyway.
Really War cleric is the only one who would care about it and they can just use a longbow.
Yes you can negate STR Saves in a lot of ways...one is being far away as the VAST majority of STR saves come from grapple/restrains/prone from melee attacks from low level enemies like Dire Wolves. So you can....just not be close to them.
Later on you get spells like Freedom of Movement which makes the VAST majority of STR saves pretty much ignorable. Also a good majority of them are to prevent being knocked prone...while this is a bad time its low in comparison to Dex which has a TON which are straight damage.
Overall its sad to say but STR is inherently dumpable in 90% of builds in which Cleric, yes even war cleric, is the case.
The difference is likely to be moot unless you are increasing your Attack stat instead of your Wisdom. I'd assume that in most cases, the cleric leaves their dex at 14 and their strength at 15 for a majority of the Campaign. How often are clerics using those dex skills? Maybe stealth comes up, but unless you have breastplate, you're probably rolling with disadvantage either way. The difference between saving with a +2 and a -1 is 15%, and I'd Suggest putting the 10 on dex instead of the 8 (hello Intelligence) making it a 10% difference. As For ranged attacks, I'm probably going with Toll the Dead with either a dex build or a str build.
You've argued that staying at range with dex build will prevent strength checks, which helps but isn't any different than dex saves. Positioning matters. The only character that got proned in my last campaign was the dex build cleric, despite the fact that he was allergic to the front lines. He also got hit with Fireball and failed his save.
Sure, dex is a super stat and affects more things than strength does. But the difference between a 14 dex and an 8 dex isn't going to affect things as much as that d20. It'll give better odds, but not significantly enough to not choose strength if that's what you want.
Finally, yes, losing a shield for a two hand weapon means trading 2 AC for 1 average damage. With the war cleric, that can add up faster with the bonus action attacks. That's also assuming that the cleric would have the same AC with their armor. Starting armor is likely to be the same but plate is 1 AC better than half plate. Additionally, if their are any affects that prevent the dex bonus from being applied (via RAW or DM fiat), that's no longer true and that could include being grappled.
TLDR: dex is superior, but not enough at the levels that were talking about to make a major difference. Players wanting to take every advantage will want to take dex, assuming that they are considering a playstyle that doesn't want the strength. Otherwise, play what you want to play. Both styles can be fun and have their own advantages.
There's always been a trade-off between Strength and Dexterity. And that's not going to change anytime soon.
Strength-based attacks can hit harder, with bigger weapons, and the bulk of magic weapons handed out in modules primarily key off of Strength. Having more Strength means being able to lift and carry more, jump higher and farther, and wear heavier armors. Setting aside the monetary cost, the Ability Score investment needed to maximize AC in heavy armor is less than in light armor. In the interests of bounded accuracy, a cleric or paladin could start with an AC that's 4 higher than a bard or rogue. That's nothing to sneeze at. If having a high AC is your concern, then how quickly you cap that means you can move on to other kinds of improvements more quickly.
Ranged attacks tend to key off Dexterity, and may keep you relatively safe by staying away from the fray, but ranged attacks can also face a higher AC. Enemies can use cover to make themselves harder to hit, by either +2 or +5. That said, ranged attacks also allow for hitting enemies that other obstacles might prevent melee fighters from reaching quickly, if at all. There are environmental factors, variables, that no amount of back-and-forth in this thread are going to adequately account for. In a white box, sure, Dexterity probably pulls ahead. They get to act sooner, statistically, and can probably kite for a bit. But once you get to actually rolling dice, especially on a dynamic battle map, it's anyone's guess.
And, more importantly, it shouldn't be a competition. Playing is a cooperative experience. Characters who emphasize Strength have an easier time breaking things, climbing and swimming, and initiating grapples. Those who emphasize Dexterity get a leg up on more skills. There is room and role enough for both, so drop the superiority complexes.
Thats fair then...I still think a 14 Dex cleric is much better off than an 8 Dex cleric as the difference between -1 and +2 is pretty big for Dex saves.
Your fireball example is...odd.
The dex cleric failed and went down...but they had a better shot to do so than a STR cleric would? STR would have had 0 impact on the situation you mentioned so its hard to say that is a good example at all....
The +3 difference is a lot there is better than the +2 difference a Shield Master feat would give you so its at least as powerful as that which is saying a fair amount.
However the real rub comes in if you plan on playing a War cleric....which this thread was originally about. You will likely be using weapons a lot more than other clerics and I even then I do not see a real value for a STR war cleric over a DEX war cleric other than flavor.
Ultimately you are correct though as it matters less for Clerics in general. Either way a War Cleric will be viable as the cleric build is forgiving. The base class is so good its hard to go wrong as long as you have a decent wisdom and AC.
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You realize you counter and invalidate your own argument for needing Initiative just a few posts later by throwing off the idea that going later can be useful by simply saying that after round one initiative doesn't matter? There are other ways to deal with Dex Saving throws than making it this undeniable must have stat. There is really nothing that makes the Cleric want to go as soon as possible that isn't achieved just as well by going later in the turn. Clerics are a heavily reactive class. They do not actually gain any kind of major advantage by going earlier in the round and going earlier does not actually matter if initiative doesn't matter after the first round.
Some clerics are reactive heavy...some never use it.
Light will use it a lot but War is not one using their reaction much beyond a possible AoO but that goes for anyone.
I will second the fact that Dex is just a straight better stat in 5e though as it is much much more universally viable than STR.
SPELL SAVES
For saves on spells its not even close:
Conclusion: Dex wins handily here
OTHER SAVES
For monster feature saves: https://imgur.com/AKaWPLg
If you forgo dragons then STR has about 102 monster ability saves vs DEX 124 saves.
Conclusion: Dex Wins-Not as much a difference than spells but still more for DEX
SKILLS
Skills associated with DEX: Stealth, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Initiative
Skills associated with STR: Athletics
Conclusion: DEX Wins as more skills are associated with DEX vs. STR
MISC
Dexterity handles AC as well as some DCs (Battle Master)
Strength handles carry capacity and jump distance.
Conclusion: This one is about a tie I would say depending on your class/subclass.
EDIT:
I forgot about RANGED ATTACKS! A dex player will do the same damage at range with their dex weapon (d8 rapier and d8 longbow) vs a STR character (2d6 Maul and 1d6 javelin). Also they get MUCH greater distance (150 ft longbow vs 30 ft Javelin)
Conclusion: Dex wins handily
So why does this matter for War Cleric?
War cleric is not one who will benefit greatly from using a STR weapon vs a DEX weapon...especially since the damage output on a sword/board build will be 100% the same (Rapier d8 vs. Longsword d8) and if you are using a 2 handed weapon you are looking at an average of about 2 points or so of damage extra with a maul (2d6 = 7 average) vs a rapier (d8 = 4.5). Since you only ever do one attack this is the maximum you will hope to gain. You also forgo 2 points of AC by not having a shield out....
So it begs the question....do you want to give up the other inherent benefits of DEX to do 2 points of damage on a turn?
For me its an easy answer....I would never build a STR War Cleric unless I was multiclassing into a build that eventually got more attacks.
I realize that you are mis-quoting me. IamSpotsa is the one who said that going first is not important to clerics, and I disagree with that.
Because round 1 is important in a standard encounter that lasts ~3 rounds. it's not going to make or break healing, but throwing out a buff for your teammates to attack with bonuses on round 1 can make a significant difference to their damage output. So again, outside the edge case of using 2h melee weapons (which I think we can all figure out what my opinion of /that/ idea is in general), dex is > str for clerics. Str gives you heavy armor without penalty which I think is totally overrated, and crap skills and saves. Dex gives you a variety of things, for 1 less AC than equivalent tier of heavy armor would. 1AC is better than a sharp stick in the eye, but I'd rather have better init, skills and saves, even if I was a front liner (which I already said imo is a bad idea)
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I agree with the above.
Imagine you're facing a group of crossbow armed bandits using a wagon blocking a bridge across a ravine.
Your cleric going first due to a lucky roll and a 15 Dex (+2) decides to ask if they can use Thaumaturgy to provide his group cover from ranged fire by causing flashes of lightning to give the attackers disadvantage to hit them (Yes that happened and it worked!).
Or if they're 5th level confronting a group of enemies perhaps undead and going first they cast Spirit Guardians meaning their charging foes upon entering 30' of them have to make a Wisdom save to take half damage of 3d8 radiant let alone having their remaining movement halved as long as they remain within 30' of the caster unless the caster drops the spell or fails a Concentration check due to damage.
Or the fact if they start within that field at the start of their next round they will need to make that saving throw again just to suffer half damage again as long as that spell is running.
You never know just how vital that initiative advantage is until you face a serious enough situation that advantage might spell the difference between most of the party going down due to the DM rolling really well due to pack tactics giving him advantage on those attacks and the cleric neutralizing that advantage when its truly vital.
The less damage taken by your party means that healing your character has limited amounts of lasts a mite longer.
And turning undead before they can act means one or more less foes to fight each round.
REactive does not mean requires using the Reaction. Your mixing a concept with a basic mechanic. They are two different things. Reactive means not just using reactions but also responding to the situation at hand.
Also your attempt to look right by numbers does not invalidate a comment i've made twice now. There are other ways to deal with Dex Saves. There are not a dirth of other ways to deal with strength saves. So your Conclusion is faulty. It's heavily assumptive and it ignores a number of variables. For example that dex character may not have access to that longbow your seeking to get the same damage out of. Plenty of them are restricted to the short bow which is d6 damage instead or might have to rely more on crossbows and have to deal with the loading property dictating how they use their ranged weapon. Your also ignoring the Yklwa which is a d8 thrown weapon for strength characters to be able to use instead should they so choose. Just as some examples.
I'm not misquoting you. Top of page 3. What IamSposta said is that there are reasons to want to go slower. Your immediate response is "I can just do that stuff on round 2 and Initiative does not matter after the first round.
Also all these limits your putting on Clerics is on you.
That's referring to getting someone up with heals.
if a player gets dropped on round 1, and I have not had my turn yet, this fight is already in a very bad place.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
the use of Thaumaturgy while an excellent use of the rule of Cool is actually a bit outside of what the spell is capable of. Considering it only has a bunch of non-mechanical flavor affects that it is capable of. So it is something to keep in mind when bringing forth reasons like this. But besides that please keep in mind. A cleric is rarely likely to outspeed a dex based archer which has put primary focus instead of secondary focus into their Dexterity and may or may not have feats or other abilities that allow them to act even faster. So that lucky roll even on a dex based cleric often still needs to be a lucky roll rather than an expectation since even if he rolls the same as the archers he still loses. He has to absolutely beat them on Initiative. And that is ignoring that some can make the argument that there is precedent in the game that lighting yourself up with lights, Even flashing ones, Would actually make you easier to hit by ranged enemies so instead of disadvantage you could give the enemies advantage. (Note Also, I do still like this creative use and rule of Cool factor attempt here. But there is a lot that does not make it guaranteed. At my tables it would have required a roll of some kind to see what kind of affect it had and could have ranged form lucky and helpful to very detrimental depending on the roll.)
The undead situation makes a lot of assumptions that could just as easily be dealt with after the fact. It assumes that they are close enough for the spell to hit them first turn when they do make their move instead of being close enough to be moved into and affected by going after them. It assumes that they do not have ranged weapons to use (a fair number of undead actually do). It assumes that the undead are slow which not all of them are. And if they are that close to be affected that easily. Then why aren't you potentially turning undead instead because there is a decent chance at level 5 that you may or may not be dealing with a horde of something you can potentially just destroy outright rather than worrying about them approaching you and having to deal damage with spirit guardians. You have the ability to potentially destroy CR1/2 at level 5. It also assumes that none of the undead your dealing with are intelligent when there are actually a number of intelligent undead once you get past skeletons and zombies which aren't really anything more than undead cannon fodder and army filler anyway. It also assumes that the encounter isn't started by Ambush which is actually one of the most common scripted and DM used ways to spring undead upon the party in which initiative doesn't matter as much as your perception (which is wisdom) because getting to act on the ambush round can be more important than acting quickly in the following round. There's nothing about this situation that makes going first Particularly advantageous except in niche situations.
However all these situations are things that the Cleric is very good at responding to and taking what the enemy did to his advantage as well and do not necessarily require that dexterity and initiative boost to accomplish.
You can heal people before they actually get dropped fully. And indeed sometimes you want to. Specially since Enemies are often just as prone to blowing their big attacks in the first couple rounds as players are. Meaning if you weather them and then heal the damage back up you have already beaten a decent part of the threat of the encounter. Letting the ally go down can actually mess with action economy by potentially missing their turn between when you go and when the enemies go. This is why for a cleric it can often be useful to be at the back of initiative order. Because it puts less chance of allies initiatives being between yours and the average enemy and often allows you to go right after or shortly after the general enemy to counter what they have done. Certain very quick monsters not withstanding (or certain extremely slow ones).
Yeah, but if the combat is over quickly it won’t matter either way what your initiative is most of the time. But when the combat goes on for a while, being able to pick your allies in the bottom of the round so they are ready to go on their turn at the top of the next round matters. It’s all about teamwork.
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I don't see the point to debate this any more. I'm clearly not going to convince anyone, and you're certainly not going to convince me. Time to just move on out.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If combat goes on for a while, then your place in the initiative irrelevant. The bottom of round 6 is basically the same as the top of round 7 as it pertains to healing (lair actions excluded).
Yeah pretty much it doesn't really matter after the first round.
Dexterity skills for clerics aren't usually going to be a high priority. Stealth with disadvantage with most medium armor and all non magical heavy armor can work, but usually doesn't. Sleight of hand isn't usually a cleric skill and acrobatics is often just as good as athletics for escaping grapples. The other uses may make it more useful, but that seems to be the common one. This is very character specific about whether dex or str isc superior for the character.
Dexterity saves are a different matter, but strength saves are the most common lesser save. This is still advantage dexterity saves because it is a major save. However, without proficiency or at least advantage, the difference between a +2 and a -1 will only be a factor for about 15% of rolls, all others would save or fail either way.
Initiative by its nature is all over the place and the difference between a +2 and a -1 isn't a major difference for the first round. Going closer to first is nice for buffs, including certain channel divinty options (our grave cleric managed a early turn for two noteworthy encounters, one where he used path of the grave before the rogue critted on the owlbear in Cragmaw castle to one shot the creature and one where he was able to destroy undead to clear a room of enemies turn one). In both instances it saved a lot of time and resources. However, using a buff when someone casts shatter and clears out the majority of a pack means that the cleric wasted a spell slot. Overall, I'd say it's a wash, especially since there aren't many if any cleric mechanics that rely on going first and that only really matters during turn 1. Special exception for if your party is surprised, since going sooner is more likely to keep you from being attacked with advantage even if you don't get to act round 1 and it does get reactions online sooner.
Overall, I think it's a wash for clerics in general and will depend on the personal tactics and preferences of the player. I know that crzyhawk has their preferences from other conversations and that's 100% fine even with the ones that I disagree about. This one is definitely more character dependent for me and I'd play a character on either side of the scale.
You make a lot of claims but show no work....How do you plan to work around dex saves? Shield master is one way but you have to be able to put the effect of the spell between you and the shield which not every effect will allow.
I at least attempted to make a case on why DEX is just a better stat in 5e in general.
By the numbers its the case as you have more skills, more saves, and more options (ranged and melee attacks) as I stated. Also...not have access to a longbow? Its a basic marital item and would be one of the easiest items to get basically anywhere? Its then hilarious that you mention the Yklwa as an option as its basically available nowhere but Chult lol...and you can throw it a wowing 10 ft which is basically nothing.
Why would most clerics care about loading property? They will never get more than 1 attack per turn anyway.
Really War cleric is the only one who would care about it and they can just use a longbow.
Yes you can negate STR Saves in a lot of ways...one is being far away as the VAST majority of STR saves come from grapple/restrains/prone from melee attacks from low level enemies like Dire Wolves. So you can....just not be close to them.
Later on you get spells like Freedom of Movement which makes the VAST majority of STR saves pretty much ignorable. Also a good majority of them are to prevent being knocked prone...while this is a bad time its low in comparison to Dex which has a TON which are straight damage.
Overall its sad to say but STR is inherently dumpable in 90% of builds in which Cleric, yes even war cleric, is the case.
The major issue is that Dex skills come up far far more often than STR skills (as there is just one) and with bounded accuracy there is a huge difference between +2 and -1. That last part is the just math of the system.
You are correct in the part about preference though as it just feels good to play a strong character which I understand completely (having played a goliath tempest cleric in a one shot trust me I understand) but with a long view its hard to say STR is AS GOOD as DEX....which is fine.
Knowing what you are getting into is the real issue. I hate it when people say "Its the same" when its not...just be honest and give people the honest answer that yes STR is weaker in this system ironically but you shouldn't just be picking your character on the power of your build but how it works for you.
If you understand that STR builds will have less versatility than DEX builds but you still want to do it...thats awesome and you can do you!
Being honest about the builds is important as well though so people can make informed decisions.
^^
Exactly, and that's why I am not really participating in this discussion any more. He keeps saying dex provides no value. I listed places where dex /does/ provide value. He says those are not important, yet refuses to provide reasons why str offers anything at all other than 2h weapons and +1 AC from heavy armor. If you're weapon and shield, 2h weapon is irrelevant, and that brings you down to a 1AC bonus, str saves, and athletics checks.
In my experience, I use dex abilities (such as acrobatics) more than I use athletics. I use stealth more than I use athletics, even if it's at disadvantage (much like heavy armor). I use init every combat. I don't remember the last time I needed to make an actual athletics check, and I value those skills and init far more than I value 1 AC from heavy armor. heavy armor /only/ allows me to dump dex, at the price of forcing me to pump str instead, unless I am an overpowered dwarf or accept a further speed penalty.
Strength is flatly inferior to dexterity, EXCEPT when using 2h weapons or barbarian abilities.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The difference is likely to be moot unless you are increasing your Attack stat instead of your Wisdom. I'd assume that in most cases, the cleric leaves their dex at 14 and their strength at 15 for a majority of the Campaign. How often are clerics using those dex skills? Maybe stealth comes up, but unless you have breastplate, you're probably rolling with disadvantage either way. The difference between saving with a +2 and a -1 is 15%, and I'd Suggest putting the 10 on dex instead of the 8 (hello Intelligence) making it a 10% difference. As For ranged attacks, I'm probably going with Toll the Dead with either a dex build or a str build.
You've argued that staying at range with dex build will prevent strength checks, which helps but isn't any different than dex saves. Positioning matters. The only character that got proned in my last campaign was the dex build cleric, despite the fact that he was allergic to the front lines. He also got hit with Fireball and failed his save.
Sure, dex is a super stat and affects more things than strength does. But the difference between a 14 dex and an 8 dex isn't going to affect things as much as that d20. It'll give better odds, but not significantly enough to not choose strength if that's what you want.
Finally, yes, losing a shield for a two hand weapon means trading 2 AC for 1 average damage. With the war cleric, that can add up faster with the bonus action attacks. That's also assuming that the cleric would have the same AC with their armor. Starting armor is likely to be the same but plate is 1 AC better than half plate. Additionally, if their are any affects that prevent the dex bonus from being applied (via RAW or DM fiat), that's no longer true and that could include being grappled.
TLDR: dex is superior, but not enough at the levels that were talking about to make a major difference. Players wanting to take every advantage will want to take dex, assuming that they are considering a playstyle that doesn't want the strength. Otherwise, play what you want to play. Both styles can be fun and have their own advantages.
There's always been a trade-off between Strength and Dexterity. And that's not going to change anytime soon.
Strength-based attacks can hit harder, with bigger weapons, and the bulk of magic weapons handed out in modules primarily key off of Strength. Having more Strength means being able to lift and carry more, jump higher and farther, and wear heavier armors. Setting aside the monetary cost, the Ability Score investment needed to maximize AC in heavy armor is less than in light armor. In the interests of bounded accuracy, a cleric or paladin could start with an AC that's 4 higher than a bard or rogue. That's nothing to sneeze at. If having a high AC is your concern, then how quickly you cap that means you can move on to other kinds of improvements more quickly.
Ranged attacks tend to key off Dexterity, and may keep you relatively safe by staying away from the fray, but ranged attacks can also face a higher AC. Enemies can use cover to make themselves harder to hit, by either +2 or +5. That said, ranged attacks also allow for hitting enemies that other obstacles might prevent melee fighters from reaching quickly, if at all. There are environmental factors, variables, that no amount of back-and-forth in this thread are going to adequately account for. In a white box, sure, Dexterity probably pulls ahead. They get to act sooner, statistically, and can probably kite for a bit. But once you get to actually rolling dice, especially on a dynamic battle map, it's anyone's guess.
And, more importantly, it shouldn't be a competition. Playing is a cooperative experience. Characters who emphasize Strength have an easier time breaking things, climbing and swimming, and initiating grapples. Those who emphasize Dexterity get a leg up on more skills. There is room and role enough for both, so drop the superiority complexes.
Thats fair then...I still think a 14 Dex cleric is much better off than an 8 Dex cleric as the difference between -1 and +2 is pretty big for Dex saves.
Your fireball example is...odd.
The dex cleric failed and went down...but they had a better shot to do so than a STR cleric would? STR would have had 0 impact on the situation you mentioned so its hard to say that is a good example at all....
The +3 difference is a lot there is better than the +2 difference a Shield Master feat would give you so its at least as powerful as that which is saying a fair amount.
However the real rub comes in if you plan on playing a War cleric....which this thread was originally about. You will likely be using weapons a lot more than other clerics and I even then I do not see a real value for a STR war cleric over a DEX war cleric other than flavor.
Ultimately you are correct though as it matters less for Clerics in general. Either way a War Cleric will be viable as the cleric build is forgiving. The base class is so good its hard to go wrong as long as you have a decent wisdom and AC.