Clerics get Enhance Ability and/or Guidance. They can fill skill rolls very effectively. They aren't leaving the other Str classes in the dust, but they do the job just fine.
All I'm saying is that if your party is dex-fighter / wizard / warlock, all of which frequently dump Str, you have a much stronger incentive to go Str vs Dex. You will bring higher AC to help you frontline and skills and options that your party lacks. The cost is a slightly lower initiative and being worse at skills that your other party members are focusing anyways.
Clerics also have things like Bless to affect saving throws which is a common spell to cast. Which does help to do things like Cover dex and/or strength a bit when it comes to saves
But Note. I never argued that Strength Builds are better. Just that they are a completely viable cleric build alternative. Where as others were taking the stance that there was only one way to build clerics and that was with dex.
Also I want to point out that The extra effects that come with strength saves are something to keep in mind (as mentioned previously by others) though they do get overlooked a lot. Most of them do things like make it so you can't escape if you need to, make it difficult to fight back, or make it so that you are easier to hit and thus take more damage. This is not true of most dex saves that are a difference between full and half damage or full and no damage in a number of instances though a few do inflict things like prone as well. While Damage is a significant thing. Let's keep in mind that of all the classes. The Cleric is the one most designed at it's core to actually deal with the issue of loss of hp.
And on a little side note. Barbarians don't actually have a dex requirement. They can wear up to medium armor and still fully function in most if not all cases, which can get them as high as 15 AC with a dex no higher than 10 and can get that to 17 with as little as 14 dex and no magical bonuses, with bonuses they can go a whole lot higher. I'm aware that everybody sees the barbarian and automatically thinks unarmored defense but they do actually have viable alternatives for them as well. Particularly since they are strength and con based anyway.
14 Dex is for sure a dex requirement....
Just sayin
I rolled a barbarian in my last campaign, only had 13 dex because I chose GWM instead of an ASI (and would have gone strength anyway). I had a half-orc zealot with 16 strength and 16 constitution. We ended at level 6, though we might start back up with the same characters after we try a few more classes. I was the only melee character and was often the only one that took damage unless AoEs were in effect. Until 3rd, I had a shield but felt comfortable after that with medium armor and my HP. Shortly thereafter, I did pick up a Ring of Protection, which certainly helped, and did get a Dragonguard at 6th level just before we finished. I even went all of Cragmaw Castle only raging once. I was switching between my Greataxe and Hew depending on whether we were in the forest areas (greataxe, since the trees made me feel really uncomfortable when I was wielding Hew as opposed to just carrying it) or in a confined area like lower ceilinged narrower halls (Hew, because it was a little smaller and easier to wield). Likewise, I would pull out Hew and attack 1 handed with it if I was carrying my greataxe and wanted a better chance to hit putting away the greataxe to swing Hew two handed on the next turn. I usually wouldn't put Hew away mid-combat just to enable power attacks from GWM.
I probably would have increased my constitution before increasing dexterity unless I would have chosen Slasher feat, but that would have been more about maximizing the feat than needing the AC. It's definitely not a requirement to go 14 dex for medium armor on a barbarian. It makes more sense depending on your magic items as you level, but there are other properties.
Moving this to War Cleric, I would suggest that a similar tactic is beneficial. If you are planning on doing most of your damage through melee, prioritizing your attack stat over wisdom might be a good idea. Not exclusively, but enough to keep your melee attacks effective. Depending on your spell choices, you can go exclusive, but that does preclude Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians from being effective. Those are really effective in melee range where a War Cleric wants to be and that suggests a more balanced approach to increasing ASIs. Getting Dex or Str accomplishes maximizing AC and melee damage. Positioning helps minimize damage regardless of saves, since you are less likely to be targeted by an AOE if you aren't close to allies that are dealing high amounts of damage. Being close to creatures with AOEs but away from allies could incentivize attacks that your higher AC could deflect. Inevitably, a smart enemy will target you with dex saves if they have then available, but only if you are a higher priority target than another PC. This suggests that clearing enemies quickly is a good way to reduce damage taken and the 1-2 damage per swing of a strength build can help that goal as that damage adds up over time.
That is part of the trade off for going dex vs str. It's not enough of a difference to be able to say that one is clearly superior to the other, even if dex is superior in a white room vacuum. Other factors will play in, such as party composition, magic item balance, and personal preference.
As for War Cleric itself, the bonus attacks are great for when you want a little more oomph but don't want to use a spell on spiritual weapon. The channel divinity is much like grave's path to the Grave, giving a sizable damage increase. The difference is that path to the Grave works on any attack where Guided Strike ensures THIS attack hits. If you only have one heavy hitter or single character buffs, Guided Strike is much better, multiple character buffs with multiple heavy hitters will prefer path to the grave.
I am going back to the problem of the OP. Sorry if this is all rehash but it is hard to sift through the wall of text sometimes.
I play a Tempest Cleric at lvl 6(and have a lvl 11 Lore Bard) and there are a few ways to go and the first is support. If you can move away from just being a straight up damage dealer. If not, then this post is moot and I would let his character die a horrible death and bring in a new character with some good story tie-ins. If he can change his view he could have fun. The Bard is all about support and some crowd control. The Cleric can do a lot of the same. It may not feel like much, as I have felt in some games but the party will really miss you if you are gone. Guidance cantrip is huge and I cast it a lot (I don't overdo it). Bless is also great, everyone loves a bonus to attack rolls and saving throws. Use Thaumaturgy to make your eyes pools of blood to intimidate others. And the obvious heals, restoration and protection spells; your party will be so very happy you have that restoration spell.
Let's look at offense/damage. His output with individual melee may not be the best and he has only one attack/rd...but wait...spiritual weapon gives him 2 attacks per round. And it can hit a different enemy. Great spell. Couple that with Spirit Guardians and you are walking damage. Use the dodge action for disadvantage to enemy attacks, move to where enemy/enemies are in range and they take 3d8 radiant damage at the start of their turn, then smack one with some extra spiritual hammer damage with a bonus action. Better yet, if you are fighting vampires or other regenerating enemies the radiant damage negates that.
If he is a front line fighter then take Resilient con feat for a +1 Con and bonus to Wis saves (concentration)or as I did, take Warcaster so I can carry a shield and weapon, get advantage on concentration saves and cast spells on opportunity attacks instead of plain boring melee attacks...Toll the Dead does 2d8/2d12 at lvl 5 with a failed save...not bad for an opportunity attack.
My cleric can fill the support role and throw out some damage. My thoughts on healing are a bit different. If I was a Life Cleric then maybe I would really try to heal but as many have said a lot of classes have ways to heal. My character knows that you can fight just as well with 1 hp as with 100. I usually don't throw my heals out until the end of combat or someone is really taken a beating and one more hit may do them in. Dead enemies do zero damage. Also characters learn to act selfishly and foolishly if someone is there to always cover their ass. Hopefully he can see there is more to the game than damage. Not criticizing damage, sometimes I just want to give some baddie a beatdown. Hopefully he can find balance but if not Echo Knight looks pretty sweet.
We are like level 6 lol. He is more comparing to other clerics like Cleric of The grave or something like that (don’t remember the name). So by his words he failed his cleric my not taking a “healing” cleric and not taking “interesting” cleric like a Grave one.
Even with two uses of divinity channel it is still too little for him. We are playing Curse of Strahd and while it is super deadly fights there (at least in my group) don’t happen alot. Still when they occur players are nearly dead 4 of 6 times so lack of “power” ether in healing, or in damaging is what he feels.
And due to this our adventure doesn’t has this “adventuring day” thing. And they don’t need it because there is like one fight in 3 days
I agree with all of you and Im just collecting things to say when he will complain once again.
I can sympathize with him. We’re playing Curse of Strahd right now, and I’m a 6th level War Domain Cleric at this point, and it sucks! I am routinely doing the least damage, and taking the most damage. It doesn’t help that the rest of the party doesn’t seem to protect me, nor do they need my buffs. Combat today I blessed some of the party and they hardly even noticed it, most attacking with advantage, and they can heal themselves, meanwhile I have had to make death saves in several encounters so far. It all-around kinda sucks.
We are like level 6 lol. He is more comparing to other clerics like Cleric of The grave or something like that (don’t remember the name). So by his words he failed his cleric my not taking a “healing” cleric and not taking “interesting” cleric like a Grave one.
Even with two uses of divinity channel it is still too little for him. We are playing Curse of Strahd and while it is super deadly fights there (at least in my group) don’t happen alot. Still when they occur players are nearly dead 4 of 6 times so lack of “power” ether in healing, or in damaging is what he feels.
And due to this our adventure doesn’t has this “adventuring day” thing. And they don’t need it because there is like one fight in 3 days
I agree with all of you and Im just collecting things to say when he will complain once again.
I can sympathize with him. We’re playing Curse of Strahd right now, and I’m a 6th level War Domain Cleric at this point, and it sucks! I am routinely doing the least damage, and taking the most damage. It doesn’t help that the rest of the party doesn’t seem to protect me, nor do they need my buffs. Combat today I blessed some of the party and they hardly even noticed it, most attacking with advantage, and they can heal themselves, meanwhile I have had to make death saves in several encounters so far. It all-around kinda sucks.
The previous posts were from 2021 so would be the 2014 War Cleric are you playing a 2014 or a 2024 war cleric?
In either case I think the war cleric is middle of the road in terms of power. You do not say what the rest of the party is so I can not compare with them.
Doing less damage I can understand, while a war cleric can do more damage than most other cleric subclasses it still has a focus on support so will never do the same amount of damage as a pure damage dealer. Who deals the damage can also be debateable, if you use guided strike to enable the rogue to get sneak attack off that damage is due to you not the rogue, if the barb pushes an enemy into your spirit guardians it is more up for debate.
I am not sure why you are taking the most damage, you can wear heavy armor and shields so your AC should be among the highest in the party. It could be that intelligent enemies employ the tactic of attacking the healer first, this can be realisitic but it can also suck for you as a player if you don't have a way to deal with it. In such circumstances you can self buff with something like shield of faith or sanctuary (ask your DM how they would rule sanctuary works if you have spirit guardians up, they may or may not rule that rule your character is dealing the damage), if that is not enough talk to the DM and/or other players about how to deal with it.
It is easy to underestimate the impact of support. While based on a wizard this video shows how a well thought out character optimising their use of support spells can turn a very unsuccessful party into a very successful one without them even noticing the support character is doing anything.
War Clerics can be difficult to play depending on the party. If your entire party are ranged combatants and you want to smash stuff with a maul then you are fighting solo on the front lines without protection is a big problem. Even with a great AC you are essentially playing a barbarian role. Furthermore if you are using Spirit Guardians you make yourself a massive target, as soon as Guardians goes up you declare yourself the biggest target to get off the board. The wizard can cast fireball and that makes him dangerous, but Spirit Guardians is an ongoing walking field of death and when you cast it your death becomes the priority for the enemy.
As a cleric you should not be doing as much damage as a damage dealer. That is not your role, and you don't have in class support to do that. You should have a good to great AC and you should strongly consider using a shield in addition to wearing plate. If the party is all range you do not have to form a front line for them. If you do frontline however, think about casting Protection from Good/Evil in combats that look like the majority of enemies are affected. Your AC combined with them getting disadvantage should combine to do bad things. Take Warcaster at 4th always. Maintaining concentration is a must and you will be taking damage. If you really want to frontline I recommend getting your hands on the Shield spell. It is absolutely worth your time.
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Jhfffan covers it pretty well here.
I am going back to the problem of the OP. Sorry if this is all rehash but it is hard to sift through the wall of text sometimes.
I play a Tempest Cleric at lvl 6(and have a lvl 11 Lore Bard) and there are a few ways to go and the first is support. If you can move away from just being a straight up damage dealer. If not, then this post is moot and I would let his character die a horrible death and bring in a new character with some good story tie-ins. If he can change his view he could have fun. The Bard is all about support and some crowd control. The Cleric can do a lot of the same. It may not feel like much, as I have felt in some games but the party will really miss you if you are gone. Guidance cantrip is huge and I cast it a lot (I don't overdo it). Bless is also great, everyone loves a bonus to attack rolls and saving throws. Use Thaumaturgy to make your eyes pools of blood to intimidate others. And the obvious heals, restoration and protection spells; your party will be so very happy you have that restoration spell.
Let's look at offense/damage. His output with individual melee may not be the best and he has only one attack/rd...but wait...spiritual weapon gives him 2 attacks per round. And it can hit a different enemy. Great spell. Couple that with Spirit Guardians and you are walking damage. Use the dodge action for disadvantage to enemy attacks, move to where enemy/enemies are in range and they take 3d8 radiant damage at the start of their turn, then smack one with some extra spiritual hammer damage with a bonus action. Better yet, if you are fighting vampires or other regenerating enemies the radiant damage negates that.
If he is a front line fighter then take Resilient con feat for a +1 Con and bonus to Wis saves (concentration)or as I did, take Warcaster so I can carry a shield and weapon, get advantage on concentration saves and cast spells on opportunity attacks instead of plain boring melee attacks...Toll the Dead does 2d8/2d12 at lvl 5 with a failed save...not bad for an opportunity attack.
My cleric can fill the support role and throw out some damage. My thoughts on healing are a bit different. If I was a Life Cleric then maybe I would really try to heal but as many have said a lot of classes have ways to heal. My character knows that you can fight just as well with 1 hp as with 100. I usually don't throw my heals out until the end of combat or someone is really taken a beating and one more hit may do them in. Dead enemies do zero damage. Also characters learn to act selfishly and foolishly if someone is there to always cover their ass. Hopefully he can see there is more to the game than damage. Not criticizing damage, sometimes I just want to give some baddie a beatdown. Hopefully he can find balance but if not Echo Knight looks pretty sweet.
I can sympathize with him. We’re playing Curse of Strahd right now, and I’m a 6th level War Domain Cleric at this point, and it sucks! I am routinely doing the least damage, and taking the most damage. It doesn’t help that the rest of the party doesn’t seem to protect me, nor do they need my buffs. Combat today I blessed some of the party and they hardly even noticed it, most attacking with advantage, and they can heal themselves, meanwhile I have had to make death saves in several encounters so far. It all-around kinda sucks.
The previous posts were from 2021 so would be the 2014 War Cleric are you playing a 2014 or a 2024 war cleric?
In either case I think the war cleric is middle of the road in terms of power. You do not say what the rest of the party is so I can not compare with them.
Doing less damage I can understand, while a war cleric can do more damage than most other cleric subclasses it still has a focus on support so will never do the same amount of damage as a pure damage dealer. Who deals the damage can also be debateable, if you use guided strike to enable the rogue to get sneak attack off that damage is due to you not the rogue, if the barb pushes an enemy into your spirit guardians it is more up for debate.
I am not sure why you are taking the most damage, you can wear heavy armor and shields so your AC should be among the highest in the party. It could be that intelligent enemies employ the tactic of attacking the healer first, this can be realisitic but it can also suck for you as a player if you don't have a way to deal with it. In such circumstances you can self buff with something like shield of faith or sanctuary (ask your DM how they would rule sanctuary works if you have spirit guardians up, they may or may not rule that rule your character is dealing the damage), if that is not enough talk to the DM and/or other players about how to deal with it.
It is easy to underestimate the impact of support. While based on a wizard this video shows how a well thought out character optimising their use of support spells can turn a very unsuccessful party into a very successful one without them even noticing the support character is doing anything.
Origin of the god wizard
War Clerics can be difficult to play depending on the party. If your entire party are ranged combatants and you want to smash stuff with a maul then you are fighting solo on the front lines without protection is a big problem. Even with a great AC you are essentially playing a barbarian role. Furthermore if you are using Spirit Guardians you make yourself a massive target, as soon as Guardians goes up you declare yourself the biggest target to get off the board. The wizard can cast fireball and that makes him dangerous, but Spirit Guardians is an ongoing walking field of death and when you cast it your death becomes the priority for the enemy.
As a cleric you should not be doing as much damage as a damage dealer. That is not your role, and you don't have in class support to do that. You should have a good to great AC and you should strongly consider using a shield in addition to wearing plate. If the party is all range you do not have to form a front line for them. If you do frontline however, think about casting Protection from Good/Evil in combats that look like the majority of enemies are affected. Your AC combined with them getting disadvantage should combine to do bad things. Take Warcaster at 4th always. Maintaining concentration is a must and you will be taking damage. If you really want to frontline I recommend getting your hands on the Shield spell. It is absolutely worth your time.