obiously no, what he was suggesting was probably something more like fly + casting magic missile with spell slots or dimension door + magic missile with spell slots
I know that, I just said if he was thinking something like Spell Mastery: Magic Missile and Misty Step, that it wouldn’t work and that Dimension Door Kiting would be better than the Misty Step since MS doesn’t work due to BA rules. But yes Fly probably would be better. Although my point still stands of why do that when you can just win the game or do something better.
The dimensions of the white room would have to be very confined to make it hard to effectively kite the melee fighter. Consider a routine of Misty Step (spell mastery) + Ray of Frost. The wizard could move 60 feet away from the fighter every turn and then threaten to slow their movement speed. The fighter will have to dash each turn just to engage the wizard, and if the Ray of Frost hits, then they can't even get close enough. If the fighter has Mage Slayer then they can get one attack in a round. At least when they don't get hit by ray of frost that is. That one attack isn't going to be better than a cantrip at this level, especially considering it won't happen every round. A wizard with HP like Dread would fair well in that exchange.
This speaks nothing of fly or even simply levitate, which would require even less space to get out of reach and take even less effort to implement.
The melee fighter is really putting themselves in a position to have to win before the wizard moves, which isn't an issue for most fighter builds since that's what they need to do anyways. But the EK can present a stickier threat that can potentially survive a multi-turn battle, so I think it's worth exploring a build that maximizes that angle. At which point ranged just makes sense because getting shut down by tactics as easy as the ones above is bad.
Yeah I think a ranged fighter is about the only one that can really threaten a wizard TBH. Melee is so hard to make useful in the late game especially those classes without some ability to fly or ground flying creatures.
A freaking imp with a wand of magic missile could do significant damage to a level 20 melee fighter without them being able to do much of anything to the imp.
You know that a EK melee build still has spells and therefore ranged power and as for “ranged“ weapons there are thrown weapons (though they wouldn’t be best). As with the EK build as shown it can become any number of builds from strength melee, strength ranged (thrown), dexterity melee (rapier), and dexterity ranged (longbow) pretty easy. And as for ranged, hold person still helps the bow when the fighter is within 5ft giving each bow shot adv. and critting (a feat can overcome the ranged disadvantage for “melee” ranged attacks).
Additionally, to say “a ranged fighter is about the only one that can really threaten a wizard” is preposterous as any of the EK builds can deal immense damage against most of any wizard build.
A freaking imp with a wand of magic missile could do significant damage to a level 20 melee fighter without them being able to do much of anything to the imp.
No a single measly throw of a weapon would decimate most of any IMP if not instantly killing it with a good throw.
Now even if you were to say the Fighter doesn’t have spells (EK), or thrown weapons the fighter could go and shot put a heft rock to the imp to deal great damage and with 4 attacks it’d be pretty easy to squish the shrimpy devil.
You know that a EK melee build still has spells and therefore ranged power and as for “ranged“ weapons there are thrown weapons (though they wouldn’t be best). As with the EK build as shown it can become any number of builds from strength melee, strength ranged (thrown), dexterity melee (rapier), and dexterity ranged (longbow) pretty easy. And as for ranged, hold person still helps the bow when the fighter is within 5ft giving each bow shot adv. and critting (a feat can overcome the ranged disadvantage for “melee” ranged attacks).
Additionally, to say “a ranged fighter is about the only one that can really threaten a wizard” is preposterous as any of the EK builds can deal immense damage against most of any wizard build.
A freaking imp with a wand of magic missile could do significant damage to a level 20 melee fighter without them being able to do much of anything to the imp.
No a single measly throw of a weapon would decimate most of any IMP if not instantly killing it with a good throw.
Now even if you were to say the Fighter doesn’t have spells (EK), or thrown weapons the fighter could go and shot put a heft rock to the imp to deal great damage and with 4 attacks it’d be pretty easy to squish the shrimpy devil.
The point being that an Imp could siimply go out of thrown weapon range and come back in during its turn. The fighter would get one attack if it used a Ready action and would make the throw at DIS.
Mostly the point being that MOST melee fighters (EK have spells to help counter so I will say its less aproblem for them) would be able to kill it but it would be able to do a fair amount of damage with Magic Missile before they could get a hit off.
You counter 99% of the fighter damage by simply being out of range.
A wizard who can stay out of range for them to even get into melee range they will just kite 99% of the damage.
The dimensions of the white room would have to be very confined to make it hard to effectively kite the melee fighter. Consider a routine of Misty Step (spell mastery) + Ray of Frost. The wizard could move 60 feet away from the fighter every turn and then threaten to slow their movement speed. The fighter will have to dash each turn just to engage the wizard, and if the Ray of Frost hits, then they can't even get close enough. If the fighter has Mage Slayer then they can get one attack in a round. At least when they don't get hit by ray of frost that is. That one attack isn't going to be better than a cantrip at this level, especially considering it won't happen every round. A wizard with HP like Dread would fair well in that exchange.
The point of a white room is to be “fair” or as close as can be so a white room can’t have well... a room (as in walls and therefore expands forever) as confining any class to a box poses detrimental side effects to the battle field and therefore favour a side so that means no cover/walls/restraints.
As for just Misty Step, ray of frost you forget that the fighter has action surge and Arcane Charge to close the distance and attacks 8 time or cast hold person and do any where from 8 attacks (quicken hold person via Metamagic Adept), or 5 attacks (action to cast hold person then war magic bonus action attack). As with Dread (utilizing kite strategy) would not fare well with an EK.
This speaks nothing of fly or even simply levitate, which would require even less space to get out of reach and take even less effort to implement.
As for flying and levitate as they are concentration a simple hold person will make them fall by incapacitating the wizard leaving himself to the mercy of the EK. And then again a ranged build, throwing g build, dex build and more are all possible to achieve as a EK.
The melee fighter is really putting themselves in a position to have to win before the wizard moves, which isn't an issue for most fighter builds since that's what they need to do anyways. But the EK can present a stickier threat that can potentially survive a multi-turn battle, so I think it's worth exploring a build that maximizes that angle. At which point ranged just makes sense because getting shut down by tactics as easy as the ones above is bad.
Winning initiative is everything as shown (probably hundreds of times) that if a wizard gets a single turn he wins while if the fighter goes first he has a chance to win (or just win in the EK scenario). As with the EK yes it can be sticky to most wizards but in reality a wizard who gets a turn wins in all but a few (a few is generous) situations.
As for the kite it really isn’t that good even when against a “melee” build (that isn’t EK) as thrown weapons, and many tactics can be employed to combat the kiting maneuver. Some that come to mind are: Thrown weapons, harpoon, rope, lasso, knocking prone, incapacitating, grappling, and some more for a melee non-EK build.
The point being that an Imp could siimply go out of thrown weapon range and come back in during its turn. The fighter would get one attack if it used a Ready action and would make the throw at DIS.
An IMP has 10hp and an AC of thirteen a single throw will probably insta-kill the pesky fiend. The chance to miss on the AC of 13 with a +11 is rolling a 1 so yeah that IMP is dead.
Mostly the point being that MOST melee fighters (EK have spells to help counter so I will say its less aproblem for them) would be able to kill it but it would be able to do a fair amount of damage with Magic Missile before they could get a hit off.
Sure perhaps the imp MAY survive a single throw (unlikely) that still means the fighter would take maybe 1-2 casting of magic missile for a total of 10.5 force damage on average so yeah the imp isn’t going to win like ever.
You counter 99% of the fighter damage by simply being out of range.
A wizard would be better at kiting but then again why should/would a wizard kite when he can just do like anything else and it would be more effective and less volatile.
A wizard who can stay out of range for them to even get into melee range they will just kite 99% of the damage.
To say kite 99% of the damage is ridiculous but that’s beside the point and I feel you put to much faith into the kiting strategy than you should as many things can go wrong.
Almost forgot as with the IMP its relevant stats are: 40ft flight, action invisibility, a magic missile wand equipped (in this battle), 13 AC, 10 HP. So yeah that IMP ain’t the strongest.
And when fighting say a champion the IMP would be hard pressed to EVER kill the fighter with the regen as he would almost regenerate the damage so it would take a long time to eve be dropped below 0. So even if the fighter is being attacked the IMP the fighter could easily figure something out to kill it with relative ease.
If the EK wants to spend each turn shooting a firebolt, Dread is more than happy to eat that up. Even with max int, that is a losing proposition from the start.
I agree many fighters should be using GWM melee builds because they have to win initiative to even have a chance and need to spike as much damage as possible. Arcane Archer is an obvious exception. The Samurai is too because it needs to use dex to take advantage of Elven Accuracy. Since the Hold Person combo is granting advantage, the EK should also be thinking about Elven Accuracy. Those auto crits still have to hit, and making sure they hit is super important. Before doing calculations, I'd wager a Heavy Crossbow wielding EK with Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, and Elven Accuracy does more damage with the Hold Person strategy than an EK with GWM and a Greatsword or Greataxe (which should be the weapon for half-orc builds).
GWM builds cannot maximize initiative like you say the EK should thanks to needing max strength for weapons and max intelligence for hold person. The Elven Accuracy build can't either, but at least it's geared to not lose to basic kiting techniques. Dex builds are the only way to maximize hold person and initiative, and melee dex builds are inferior because Archery Style is better than Dueling for DPR. A melee EK is just asking to lose percentage points in the matchup.
I don't think that either the GWM builds or Elven Accuracy builds are the best way forward. GWM can't maximize initiative but needs to because it fails against basic kiting strategies and the Elven Accuracy build can't fit both Lucky and Metamagic Adept. That leaves good old-fashioned non-elven archery as the next best option in terms of DPR and tactics.
The melee fighter is really putting themselves in a position to have to win before the wizard moves, which isn't an issue for most fighter builds since that's what they need to do anyways. But the EK can present a stickier threat that can potentially survive a multi-turn battle, so I think it's worth exploring a build that maximizes that angle. At which point ranged just makes sense because getting shut down by tactics as easy as the ones above is bad.
Winning initiative is everything as shown (probably hundreds of times) that if a wizard gets a single turn he wins while if the fighter goes first he has a chance to win (or just win in the EK scenario). As with the EK yes it can be sticky to most wizards but in reality a wizard who gets a turn wins in all but a few (a few is generous) situations.
As for the kite it really isn’t that good even when against a “melee” build (that isn’t EK) as thrown weapons, and many tactics can be employed to combat the kiting maneuver. Some that come to mind are: Thrown weapons, harpoon, rope, lasso, knocking prone, incapacitating, grappling, and some more for a melee non-EK build.
i mean ropes and lassos would fall under the domain of "up to the DM" and grappling only works if you are already in melee range and can do it before the wizard gets to act.
(also remember to not forget the psi-warrior's abillity to fly and use telekinesis)
Since the judgement is that initiative will play such an important role, would it be reasonable to say that dex builds, war wizards, battle masters with ambush and the alertness feat be more viable, assuming characters built with this specific scenario in mind?
also feels like we are giving the eldrich knight an unfair angle in this thread generally due to how we treat them as having whatever spell happens to be nessesary to counter a particular wizard strategy
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The dimensions of the white room would have to be very confined to make it hard to effectively kite the melee fighter. Consider a routine of Misty Step (spell mastery) + Ray of Frost. The wizard could move 60 feet away from the fighter every turn and then threaten to slow their movement speed. The fighter will have to dash each turn just to engage the wizard, and if the Ray of Frost hits, then they can't even get close enough. If the fighter has Mage Slayer then they can get one attack in a round. At least when they don't get hit by ray of frost that is. That one attack isn't going to be better than a cantrip at this level, especially considering it won't happen every round. A wizard with HP like Dread would fair well in that exchange.
The point of a white room is to be “fair” or as close as can be so a white room can’t have well... a room (as in walls and therefore expands forever) as confining any class to a box poses detrimental side effects to the battle field and therefore favour a side so that means no cover/walls/restraints.
As for just Misty Step, ray of frost you forget that the fighter has action surge and Arcane Charge to close the distance and attacks 8 time or cast hold person and do any where from 8 attacks (quicken hold person via Metamagic Adept), or 5 attacks (action to cast hold person then war magic bonus action attack). As with Dread (utilizing kite strategy) would not fare well with an EK.
This speaks nothing of fly or even simply levitate, which would require even less space to get out of reach and take even less effort to implement.
As for flying and levitate as they are concentration a simple hold person will make them fall by incapacitating the wizard leaving himself to the mercy of the EK. And then again a ranged build, throwing g build, dex build and more are all possible to achieve as a EK.
The melee fighter is really putting themselves in a position to have to win before the wizard moves, which isn't an issue for most fighter builds since that's what they need to do anyways. But the EK can present a stickier threat that can potentially survive a multi-turn battle, so I think it's worth exploring a build that maximizes that angle. At which point ranged just makes sense because getting shut down by tactics as easy as the ones above is bad.
Winning initiative is everything as shown (probably hundreds of times) that if a wizard gets a single turn he wins while if the fighter goes first he has a chance to win (or just win in the EK scenario). As with the EK yes it can be sticky to most wizards but in reality a wizard who gets a turn wins in all but a few (a few is generous) situations.
As for the kite it really isn’t that good even when against a “melee” build (that isn’t EK) as thrown weapons, and many tactics can be employed to combat the kiting maneuver. Some that come to mind are: Thrown weapons, harpoon, rope, lasso, knocking prone, incapacitating, grappling, and some more for a melee non-EK build.
Yeah full agree on initiative for sure...If a fighter wins that they have a good shot on the ones we have mentioned.
As for the anti-kite I feel that EK probably has the most in its toolset to counter with various spells but the rest have next to nothing if they are not ranged.
Thrown weapons- Probably the easiest for all builds but if the wizard is ducking out of range on its turn then back in to cast then you cannot even target a creature on your turn.....You would have to rely on Ready action and would get one attack which is dismal
Harpoon- RAW I am not sure how this would work as we do not have one....I have never seen it in use.
Lasso- Ready action to lasso would be interesting but a wizard could always just Misty Step out of it while still maintaining concentration on a flying spell
Knocking prone- This would work for sure....but the only one I think who can do this at range is Battlemaster with Trip Attack. So most melee builds will not be able to do at range.
Incapacitating- TBH I cannot think of an ability outside of spells that incapacitates....so most melee fighters will not be able to do.
Grappling- If you win initiative then yeah this is an option...but if you lose it will do nothing for you. If you win initiative its better to just go for the kill shot so I do not think this would come into play.
The melee fighter is really putting themselves in a position to have to win before the wizard moves, which isn't an issue for most fighter builds since that's what they need to do anyways. But the EK can present a stickier threat that can potentially survive a multi-turn battle, so I think it's worth exploring a build that maximizes that angle. At which point ranged just makes sense because getting shut down by tactics as easy as the ones above is bad.
Winning initiative is everything as shown (probably hundreds of times) that if a wizard gets a single turn he wins while if the fighter goes first he has a chance to win (or just win in the EK scenario). As with the EK yes it can be sticky to most wizards but in reality a wizard who gets a turn wins in all but a few (a few is generous) situations.
As for the kite it really isn’t that good even when against a “melee” build (that isn’t EK) as thrown weapons, and many tactics can be employed to combat the kiting maneuver. Some that come to mind are: Thrown weapons, harpoon, rope, lasso, knocking prone, incapacitating, grappling, and some more for a melee non-EK build.
i mean ropes and lassos would fall under the domain of "up to the DM" and grappling only works if you are already in melee range and can do it before the wizard gets to act.
(also remember to not forget the psi-warrior's abillity to fly and use telekinesis)
Since the judgement is that initiative will play such an important role, would it be reasonable to say that dex builds, war wizards, battle masters with ambush and the alertness feat be more viable, assuming characters built with this specific scenario in mind?
also feels like we are giving the eldrich knight an unfair angle in this thread generally due to how we treat them as having whatever spell happens to be nessesary to counter a particular wizard strategy
Good point about Psi Knight...I forgot about that ability. However its twice your walking speed and ends on the turn so 60 ft will be good but wont help if the wizard is 125 ft but you could leap and throw something at least but it would be one attack anyway as you can only draw/throw one thing per turn....maybe two if you had it in your hand already.
Also the sad thing about the telekensis thing is it is the spell....so the wizard can just counterspell it.
It was dumb for them to make it a spell and not an ability that mirrored the spell. Poor design decision IMO.
Lol we're back to half a dozen posts appearing by the time I'm done typing.
I did miss Arcane Charge. How about we just drop all the kiting talk because it boils down to a bigger issue. The GWM EK can't maximize initiative. If that's what matters most then the GWM build is inherently flawed.
Lol we're back to half a dozen posts appearing by the time I'm done typing.
I did miss Arcane Charge. How about we just drop all the kiting talk because it boils down to a bigger issue. The GWM EK can't maximize initiative. If that's what matters most then the GWM build is inherently flawed.
Fair point as well. For me its just sad to see how lame STR builds are in 5e at high levels.
I agree many fighters should be using GWM melee builds because they have to win initiative to even have a chance and need to spike as much damage as possible. Arcane Archer is an obvious exception. The Samurai is too because it needs to use dex to take advantage of Elven Accuracy. Since the Hold Person combo is granting advantage, the EK should also be thinking about Elven Accuracy. Those auto crits still have to hit, and making sure they hit is super important. Before doing calculations, I'd wager a Heavy Crossbow wielding EK with Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, and Elven Accuracy does more damage with the Hold Person strategy than an EK with GWM and a Greatsword or Greataxe (which should be the weapon for half-orc builds).
GWM builds cannot maximize initiative like you say the EK should thanks to needing max strength for weapons and max intelligence for hold person. The Elven Accuracy build can't either, but at least it's geared to not lose to basic kiting techniques. Dex builds are the only way to maximize hold person and initiative, and melee dex builds are inferior because Archery Style is better than Dueling for DPR. A melee EK is just asking to lose percentage points in the matchup.
I don't think that either the GWM builds or Elven Accuracy builds are the best way forward. GWM can't maximize initiative but needs to because it fails against basic kiting strategies and the Elven Accuracy build can't fit both Lucky and Metamagic Adept. That leaves good old-fashioned non-elven archery as the next best option in terms of DPR and tactics.
You underestimate the damage of the melee EK as if you look back at the Rapier or Polearm build you’ll see that the damage goes over Dread’s HP very easily and that was one of the most conservative estimates for damage as I left out the extra attacks at the end when the wizard would save. As for initiative as I have said a Dex EK is very much possible (see Rapier) and a ranged Dex build possible too. As for GWM I didn’t use it at all for my EK calculations (I think). And as for Elven Accuracy you could but you would sacrifice some damage as advantage with +11 against at most a 18 AC is very good. As for the Heavy crossbow EK I actually don’t think it can out damage the piercer, half-Orc, Polearm build as an average strike for my build was like 30 damage. So that’s that.
-The stuff below relates to mostly other posts-
As for initiative yeah it is VERY important.
Then for harpoon ehh could said be homebrew but it is in a monster stat block so ehh... while for lasso, rope and more you can tie and do special knots but some of which may be up to the DM so ehh.
As for incapacitating outside of spells you could tie up a character to such a large degree (gag, tie hands, tie feet, wrap over, etc).
Psi-Warrior is fine but not that great as it has no access to hold person and doesn’t deal that much damage.
As for EK spell choice I think I only ever talked of hold person so I guess I could add Counterspell and dispel magic and whatever else you want (probably prestidigitation for some trinket shenanigans).
As for Subclasss the best subclasses right now are:
Lol we're back to half a dozen posts appearing by the time I'm done typing.
I did miss Arcane Charge. How about we just drop all the kiting talk because it boils down to a bigger issue. The GWM EK can't maximize initiative. If that's what matters most then the GWM build is inherently flawed.
Fair point as well. For me its just sad to see how lame STR builds are in 5e at high levels.
What is the GWM inherent flaw if you say initiative I can just make the EK into a Dex rapier or ranged build (and if you say that’s the problem—of having to change in a initiative battle— I say the reason I made the melee polearm piercer build was to show that the Dread build can be killed (over killed) by damage by going to an extreme level. And yes I do recognize that in this battle initiative is paramount that why I built a Dex build to fight that fight while still having a foot on the peddle for EXTREME DAMAGE via criteria.
As for strength builds in later levels yes they CAN drop in later levels but that’s mostly game design (non-caster better in early game, caster better [usually] in late game).
Lol we're back to half a dozen posts appearing by the time I'm done typing.
I did miss Arcane Charge. How about we just drop all the kiting talk because it boils down to a bigger issue. The GWM EK can't maximize initiative. If that's what matters most then the GWM build is inherently flawed.
Fair point as well. For me its just sad to see how lame STR builds are in 5e at high levels.
What is the GWM inherent flaw if you say initiative I can just make the EK into a Dex rapier or ranged build (and if you say that’s the problem—of having to change in a initiative battle— I say the reason I made the melee polearm piercer build was to show that the Dread build can be killed (over killed) by damage by going to an extreme level. And yes I do recognize that in this battle initiative is paramount that why I built a Dex build to fight that fight while still having a foot on the peddle for EXTREME DAMAGE via criteria.
As for strength builds in later levels yes they CAN drop in later levels but that’s mostly game design (non-caster better in early game, caster better [usually] in late game).
Yeah thats my take too....they just fall off a lot vs. creatures with mobility. Casters just get crazy good at T4 and leave all martials in the dust IMO
Yeah thats my take too....they just fall off a lot vs. creatures with mobility. Casters just get crazy good at T4 and leave all martials in the dust IMO
But then again with melee many prioritize movement and TBH it FULLY depends on the build your making and what your going for like if your going for mass crit damage that could (if no legendary resistances) probably kill an adult dragon and perhaps even an ancient dragon (who knows).
But yeah spells at higher levels are crazy (most extreme example of such is Wish) while most fighter just stick to a “niche” as they don’t have a huge spell list like a wizard.
As with martials I’d argue a Paladin is a martial and man you can go miles with a Paladin and a Barbarian who literally can’t die (relentless rage and that subclass feature that makes you unable to be killed [unless it was disintegrated]). Then there’s more as there are some great ranger archer/crossbow builds who are martial. But yeah I know what you mean.
Yeah thats my take too....they just fall off a lot vs. creatures with mobility. Casters just get crazy good at T4 and leave all martials in the dust IMO
But then again with melee many prioritize movement and TBH it FULLY depends on the build your making and what your going for like if your going for mass crit damage that could (if no legendary resistances) probably kill an adult dragon and perhaps even an ancient dragon (who knows).
But yeah spells at higher levels are crazy (most extreme example of such is Wish) while most fighter just stick to a “niche” as they don’t have a huge spell list like a wizard.
As with martials I’d argue a Paladin is a martial and man you can go miles with a Paladin and a Barbarian who literally can’t die (relentless rage and that subclass feature that makes you unable to be killed [unless it was disintegrated]). Then there’s more as there are some great ranger archer/crossbow builds who are martial. But yeah I know what you mean.
Ancient no as they have like 500+ HP and to do a lot of damage you have to rely on GWM/SS which against a high AC enemy like a dragon will be poor.
Also they can just fly away so melee builds are left holding the bag again as the casters and ranged martials are doing the heavy lifting.
Zealot Barb is the one I think you are talking about and yeah with the right build they are extremely hard to kill. You pretty much have to be able to incapacitate them so the rage ends. Sleep is the most common tactic but races that don't sleep or can't be put to sleep avoid that pretty quickly. Otherwise banishment would be the one way to do it.
Moon Druid at level 20 too as they can just re-up wild shape means they can be crazy hard to kill if they just keep shifting back into a fire elemental.
You would have to use a PWK on them basically
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I know that, I just said if he was thinking something like Spell Mastery: Magic Missile and Misty Step, that it wouldn’t work and that Dimension Door Kiting would be better than the Misty Step since MS doesn’t work due to BA rules. But yes Fly probably would be better. Although my point still stands of why do that when you can just win the game or do something better.
The dimensions of the white room would have to be very confined to make it hard to effectively kite the melee fighter. Consider a routine of Misty Step (spell mastery) + Ray of Frost. The wizard could move 60 feet away from the fighter every turn and then threaten to slow their movement speed. The fighter will have to dash each turn just to engage the wizard, and if the Ray of Frost hits, then they can't even get close enough. If the fighter has Mage Slayer then they can get one attack in a round. At least when they don't get hit by ray of frost that is. That one attack isn't going to be better than a cantrip at this level, especially considering it won't happen every round. A wizard with HP like Dread would fair well in that exchange.
This speaks nothing of fly or even simply levitate, which would require even less space to get out of reach and take even less effort to implement.
The melee fighter is really putting themselves in a position to have to win before the wizard moves, which isn't an issue for most fighter builds since that's what they need to do anyways. But the EK can present a stickier threat that can potentially survive a multi-turn battle, so I think it's worth exploring a build that maximizes that angle. At which point ranged just makes sense because getting shut down by tactics as easy as the ones above is bad.
Yeah I think a ranged fighter is about the only one that can really threaten a wizard TBH. Melee is so hard to make useful in the late game especially those classes without some ability to fly or ground flying creatures.
A freaking imp with a wand of magic missile could do significant damage to a level 20 melee fighter without them being able to do much of anything to the imp.
You know that a EK melee build still has spells and therefore ranged power and as for “ranged“ weapons there are thrown weapons (though they wouldn’t be best). As with the EK build as shown it can become any number of builds from strength melee, strength ranged (thrown), dexterity melee (rapier), and dexterity ranged (longbow) pretty easy. And as for ranged, hold person still helps the bow when the fighter is within 5ft giving each bow shot adv. and critting (a feat can overcome the ranged disadvantage for “melee” ranged attacks).
Additionally, to say “a ranged fighter is about the only one that can really threaten a wizard” is preposterous as any of the EK builds can deal immense damage against most of any wizard build.
No a single measly throw of a weapon would decimate most of any IMP if not instantly killing it with a good throw.
Now even if you were to say the Fighter doesn’t have spells (EK), or thrown weapons the fighter could go and shot put a heft rock to the imp to deal great damage and with 4 attacks it’d be pretty easy to squish the shrimpy devil.
The point being that an Imp could siimply go out of thrown weapon range and come back in during its turn. The fighter would get one attack if it used a Ready action and would make the throw at DIS.
Mostly the point being that MOST melee fighters (EK have spells to help counter so I will say its less aproblem for them) would be able to kill it but it would be able to do a fair amount of damage with Magic Missile before they could get a hit off.
You counter 99% of the fighter damage by simply being out of range.
A wizard who can stay out of range for them to even get into melee range they will just kite 99% of the damage.
The point of a white room is to be “fair” or as close as can be so a white room can’t have well... a room (as in walls and therefore expands forever) as confining any class to a box poses detrimental side effects to the battle field and therefore favour a side so that means no cover/walls/restraints.
As for just Misty Step, ray of frost you forget that the fighter has action surge and Arcane Charge to close the distance and attacks 8 time or cast hold person and do any where from 8 attacks (quicken hold person via Metamagic Adept), or 5 attacks (action to cast hold person then war magic bonus action attack). As with Dread (utilizing kite strategy) would not fare well with an EK.
As for flying and levitate as they are concentration a simple hold person will make them fall by incapacitating the wizard leaving himself to the mercy of the EK. And then again a ranged build, throwing g build, dex build and more are all possible to achieve as a EK.
Winning initiative is everything as shown (probably hundreds of times) that if a wizard gets a single turn he wins while if the fighter goes first he has a chance to win (or just win in the EK scenario). As with the EK yes it can be sticky to most wizards but in reality a wizard who gets a turn wins in all but a few (a few is generous) situations.
As for the kite it really isn’t that good even when against a “melee” build (that isn’t EK) as thrown weapons, and many tactics can be employed to combat the kiting maneuver. Some that come to mind are: Thrown weapons, harpoon, rope, lasso, knocking prone, incapacitating, grappling, and some more for a melee non-EK build.
An IMP has 10hp and an AC of thirteen a single throw will probably insta-kill the pesky fiend. The chance to miss on the AC of 13 with a +11 is rolling a 1 so yeah that IMP is dead.
Sure perhaps the imp MAY survive a single throw (unlikely) that still means the fighter would take maybe 1-2 casting of magic missile for a total of 10.5 force damage on average so yeah the imp isn’t going to win like ever.
A wizard would be better at kiting but then again why should/would a wizard kite when he can just do like anything else and it would be more effective and less volatile.
To say kite 99% of the damage is ridiculous but that’s beside the point and I feel you put to much faith into the kiting strategy than you should as many things can go wrong.
Almost forgot as with the IMP its relevant stats are: 40ft flight, action invisibility, a magic missile wand equipped (in this battle), 13 AC, 10 HP. So yeah that IMP ain’t the strongest.
And when fighting say a champion the IMP would be hard pressed to EVER kill the fighter with the regen as he would almost regenerate the damage so it would take a long time to eve be dropped below 0. So even if the fighter is being attacked the IMP the fighter could easily figure something out to kill it with relative ease.
If the EK wants to spend each turn shooting a firebolt, Dread is more than happy to eat that up. Even with max int, that is a losing proposition from the start.
I agree many fighters should be using GWM melee builds because they have to win initiative to even have a chance and need to spike as much damage as possible. Arcane Archer is an obvious exception. The Samurai is too because it needs to use dex to take advantage of Elven Accuracy. Since the Hold Person combo is granting advantage, the EK should also be thinking about Elven Accuracy. Those auto crits still have to hit, and making sure they hit is super important. Before doing calculations, I'd wager a Heavy Crossbow wielding EK with Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, and Elven Accuracy does more damage with the Hold Person strategy than an EK with GWM and a Greatsword or Greataxe (which should be the weapon for half-orc builds).
GWM builds cannot maximize initiative like you say the EK should thanks to needing max strength for weapons and max intelligence for hold person. The Elven Accuracy build can't either, but at least it's geared to not lose to basic kiting techniques. Dex builds are the only way to maximize hold person and initiative, and melee dex builds are inferior because Archery Style is better than Dueling for DPR. A melee EK is just asking to lose percentage points in the matchup.
I don't think that either the GWM builds or Elven Accuracy builds are the best way forward. GWM can't maximize initiative but needs to because it fails against basic kiting strategies and the Elven Accuracy build can't fit both Lucky and Metamagic Adept. That leaves good old-fashioned non-elven archery as the next best option in terms of DPR and tactics.
i mean ropes and lassos would fall under the domain of "up to the DM" and grappling only works if you are already in melee range and can do it before the wizard gets to act.
(also remember to not forget the psi-warrior's abillity to fly and use telekinesis)
Since the judgement is that initiative will play such an important role, would it be reasonable to say that dex builds, war wizards, battle masters with ambush and the alertness feat be more viable, assuming characters built with this specific scenario in mind?
also feels like we are giving the eldrich knight an unfair angle in this thread generally due to how we treat them as having whatever spell happens to be nessesary to counter a particular wizard strategy
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yeah full agree on initiative for sure...If a fighter wins that they have a good shot on the ones we have mentioned.
As for the anti-kite I feel that EK probably has the most in its toolset to counter with various spells but the rest have next to nothing if they are not ranged.
Thrown weapons- Probably the easiest for all builds but if the wizard is ducking out of range on its turn then back in to cast then you cannot even target a creature on your turn.....You would have to rely on Ready action and would get one attack which is dismal
Harpoon- RAW I am not sure how this would work as we do not have one....I have never seen it in use.
Lasso- Ready action to lasso would be interesting but a wizard could always just Misty Step out of it while still maintaining concentration on a flying spell
Knocking prone- This would work for sure....but the only one I think who can do this at range is Battlemaster with Trip Attack. So most melee builds will not be able to do at range.
Incapacitating- TBH I cannot think of an ability outside of spells that incapacitates....so most melee fighters will not be able to do.
Grappling- If you win initiative then yeah this is an option...but if you lose it will do nothing for you. If you win initiative its better to just go for the kill shot so I do not think this would come into play.
Good point about Psi Knight...I forgot about that ability. However its twice your walking speed and ends on the turn so 60 ft will be good but wont help if the wizard is 125 ft but you could leap and throw something at least but it would be one attack anyway as you can only draw/throw one thing per turn....maybe two if you had it in your hand already.
Also the sad thing about the telekensis thing is it is the spell....so the wizard can just counterspell it.
It was dumb for them to make it a spell and not an ability that mirrored the spell. Poor design decision IMO.
Lol we're back to half a dozen posts appearing by the time I'm done typing.
I did miss Arcane Charge. How about we just drop all the kiting talk because it boils down to a bigger issue. The GWM EK can't maximize initiative. If that's what matters most then the GWM build is inherently flawed.
Fair point as well. For me its just sad to see how lame STR builds are in 5e at high levels.
You underestimate the damage of the melee EK as if you look back at the Rapier or Polearm build you’ll see that the damage goes over Dread’s HP very easily and that was one of the most conservative estimates for damage as I left out the extra attacks at the end when the wizard would save. As for initiative as I have said a Dex EK is very much possible (see Rapier) and a ranged Dex build possible too. As for GWM I didn’t use it at all for my EK calculations (I think). And as for Elven Accuracy you could but you would sacrifice some damage as advantage with +11 against at most a 18 AC is very good. As for the Heavy crossbow EK I actually don’t think it can out damage the piercer, half-Orc, Polearm build as an average strike for my build was like 30 damage. So that’s that.
-The stuff below relates to mostly other posts-
As for initiative yeah it is VERY important.
Then for harpoon ehh could said be homebrew but it is in a monster stat block so ehh... while for lasso, rope and more you can tie and do special knots but some of which may be up to the DM so ehh.
As for incapacitating outside of spells you could tie up a character to such a large degree (gag, tie hands, tie feet, wrap over, etc).
Psi-Warrior is fine but not that great as it has no access to hold person and doesn’t deal that much damage.
As for EK spell choice I think I only ever talked of hold person so I guess I could add Counterspell and dispel magic and whatever else you want (probably prestidigitation for some trinket shenanigans).
As for Subclasss the best subclasses right now are:
Fighter: EK, AA, then Samurai
Wizard: Chronurgy, Divination, then Abjuration
Man once I’m done one of my bigger posts I’ve missed like ten haha.
What is the GWM inherent flaw if you say initiative I can just make the EK into a Dex rapier or ranged build (and if you say that’s the problem—of having to change in a initiative battle— I say the reason I made the melee polearm piercer build was to show that the Dread build can be killed (over killed) by damage by going to an extreme level. And yes I do recognize that in this battle initiative is paramount that why I built a Dex build to fight that fight while still having a foot on the peddle for EXTREME DAMAGE via criteria.
As for strength builds in later levels yes they CAN drop in later levels but that’s mostly game design (non-caster better in early game, caster better [usually] in late game).
Yeah thats my take too....they just fall off a lot vs. creatures with mobility. Casters just get crazy good at T4 and leave all martials in the dust IMO
But then again with melee many prioritize movement and TBH it FULLY depends on the build your making and what your going for like if your going for mass crit damage that could (if no legendary resistances) probably kill an adult dragon and perhaps even an ancient dragon (who knows).
But yeah spells at higher levels are crazy (most extreme example of such is Wish) while most fighter just stick to a “niche” as they don’t have a huge spell list like a wizard.
As with martials I’d argue a Paladin is a martial and man you can go miles with a Paladin and a Barbarian who literally can’t die (relentless rage and that subclass feature that makes you unable to be killed [unless it was disintegrated]). Then there’s more as there are some great ranger archer/crossbow builds who are martial. But yeah I know what you mean.
Ancient no as they have like 500+ HP and to do a lot of damage you have to rely on GWM/SS which against a high AC enemy like a dragon will be poor.
Also they can just fly away so melee builds are left holding the bag again as the casters and ranged martials are doing the heavy lifting.
Zealot Barb is the one I think you are talking about and yeah with the right build they are extremely hard to kill. You pretty much have to be able to incapacitate them so the rage ends. Sleep is the most common tactic but races that don't sleep or can't be put to sleep avoid that pretty quickly. Otherwise banishment would be the one way to do it.
Moon Druid at level 20 too as they can just re-up wild shape means they can be crazy hard to kill if they just keep shifting back into a fire elemental.
You would have to use a PWK on them basically