The relevant part of the description says "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space." Surely the phrase "as if you were in the echo's space" means that it is treated as if it was within your reach, as that would be the case if you were actually in the echo's space? Therefore the entirety of both the Sentinel and War Caster feats apply to the opportunity attack.
The bolded emphasis is mine, and is entirely incorrect.
Sentinel's three parts are:
• Whenever you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, its speed drops to 0 for the rest of the turn. This stops any movement they may have been taking.
• Creatures within your reach provoke opportunity attacks even if they took the Disengage action.
• When a creature within your reach makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
Only one of these features gives a modification to Opportunity Attacks, the first. The second feature gives you an additional trigger for Opportunity Attacks, and the third features gives you a special reaction attack (note that it is NOT an Opportunity Attack).
You are focusing on this part, "as if you were in the echo's space." You should really read it in context to the entire line, "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space." Taking an Opportunity Attack "as if you were in the echo's space" only occurs AFTER you have used your reaction to do so, which can only occur AFTER a creature has moved away from the Echo. Creatures that are away from you but near the Echo don't count as being in your reach, therefore the second feature of the Sentinel feat cannot trigger, because they have to trigger an Opportunity Attack with their movement first, and THEN you count as being in the Echo's space. The same is true of the third feature, it doesn't count as being in your reach if an enemy is only next to an Echo, so you can't use your reaction to make the special reaction attack.
If flanking is being used in your game this is broken as shit. Level 3 you spend a bonus action to get advantage on all attacks, if thou take the feat that gives you triple advantage as an elf and then great weapon master you'll do insane damage. Then when you get level 7 you can get action surge to get 6 attacks in a single turn, all with triple advantage and +10 damage.
This sub class has the damage potential of an assassin rogue without the condition that they have to catch the enemy by surprise.
Level 10 you get to pretty much stop playing the game because there's nothing that seems to stop you from being able to just send echo after echo into combat on your behalf.
If flanking is being used in your game this is broken as shit. Level 3 you spend a bonus action to get advantage on all attacks, if thou take the feat that gives you triple advantage as an elf and then great weapon master you'll do insane damage. Then when you get level 7 you can get action surge to get 6 attacks in a single turn, all with triple advantage and +10 damage.
This sub class has the damage potential of an assassin rogue without the condition that they have to catch the enemy by surprise.
Level 10 you get to pretty much stop playing the game because there's nothing that seems to stop you from being able to just send echo after echo into combat on your behalf.
The echo doesn't grant you any kind of flanking. It's an object, not an ally.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
If flanking is being used in your game this is broken as shit. Level 3 you spend a bonus action to get advantage on all attacks, if thou take the feat that gives you triple advantage as an elf and then great weapon master you'll do insane damage. Then when you get level 7 you can get action surge to get 6 attacks in a single turn, all with triple advantage and +10 damage.
This sub class has the damage potential of an assassin rogue without the condition that they have to catch the enemy by surprise.
Level 10 you get to pretty much stop playing the game because there's nothing that seems to stop you from being able to just send echo after echo into combat on your behalf.
Flanking itself is a busted variant rule and should not be used in my opinion anyway.
Flanking itself is fine, though I think some DMs (mine included) mistake flanking as pack tactics. Flanking is straight across, 12 - 6 for the benefit, where pack tactics is just multiple engagement leading to more advantage than there should be.
If flanking is being used in your game this is broken as shit. Level 3 you spend a bonus action to get advantage on all attacks, if thou take the feat that gives you triple advantage as an elf and then great weapon master you'll do insane damage. Then when you get level 7 you can get action surge to get 6 attacks in a single turn, all with triple advantage and +10 damage.
This sub class has the damage potential of an assassin rogue without the condition that they have to catch the enemy by surprise.
Level 10 you get to pretty much stop playing the game because there's nothing that seems to stop you from being able to just send echo after echo into combat on your behalf.
This is false. You do not get flanking from an object.
Flanking itself is fine, though I think some DMs (mine included) mistake flanking as pack tactics. Flanking is straight across, 12 - 6 for the benefit, where pack tactics is just multiple engagement leading to more advantage than there should be.
No, flanking isn't fine. Free advantage due to your buddy standing behind them to both people? That's broken. I use a +1 bonus to hit instead. Giving echoes flanking would be broken as well.
No, flanking isn't fine. Free advantage due to your buddy standing behind them to both people? That's broken. I use a +1 bonus to hit instead. Giving echoes flanking would be broken as well.
I like that homebrew ruling...still gives some benefit without being crazy.
No, flanking isn't fine. Free advantage due to your buddy standing behind them to both people? That's broken. I use a +1 bonus to hit instead. Giving echoes flanking would be broken as well.
I like that homebrew ruling...still gives some benefit without being crazy.
Yeah, it's a good boost, not crazy, like advantage. It makes sense that flanking would give some benefit, but advantage is too broken to give just because you're standing on the opposite side of them as an ally.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Hi all. This thread has been most fascinating and has gotten me thinking about all the possibilities for Echo Knights. There are also a whole lot of confusion and questions around Echo Knights.
I find the fun and potential for Echo Knights to be really awesome, and over the course of learning about them, and reading the various debates, my perception of them has changed. At first I thought of Echos as physical clones of the main character, able to take independent actions. Now I view them more like illusions or ghost through which the main character can themselves attack or spy.
I find the mechanics are a mishmash of other D&D rules and features. For example, the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity ability, the Spiritual Weapon spell, or even Bigby's Hand. While I truly love the concept, and the versatility and tactics it allows, there are clearly a number of unresolved mechanical issues.
This has led me to try to create an Unofficial Echo Knight F.A.Q. of sorts to try to collect all the various questions and rules in one place. Many of the questions for the FAQ came from this thread. What I thought would be a small project turned into a much larger one. But feel free to take a look, suggest additions to it, or argue for changes.
This imperfect attempt at trying to make sense of Echo Knight rules is also for the community, and to help others understand what they are or are not capable of within the rules. That said, any DM or game can rule different. And I'm sure there is still much debate to be had. Anyway, please enjoy if you're interested.
Hi all. This thread has been most fascinating and has gotten me thinking about all the possibilities for Echo Knights. There are also a whole lot of confusion and questions around Echo Knights.
I find the fun and potential for Echo Knights to be really awesome, and over the course of learning about them, and reading the various debates, my perception of them has changed. At first I thought of Echos as physical clones of the main character, able to take independent actions. Now I view them more like illusions or ghost through which the main character can themselves attack or spy.
I find the mechanics are a mishmash of other D&D rules and features. For example, the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity ability, the Spiritual Weapon spell, or even Bigby's Hand. While I truly love the concept, and the versatility and tactics it allows, there are clearly a number of unresolved mechanical issues.
This has led me to try to create an Unofficial Echo Knight F.A.Q. of sorts to try to collect all the various questions and rules in one place. Many of the questions for the FAQ came from this thread. What I thought would be a small project turned into a much larger one. But feel free to take a look, suggest additions to it, or argue for changes.
This imperfect attempt at trying to make sense of Echo Knight rules is also for the community, and to help others understand what they are or are not capable of within the rules. That said, any DM or game can rule different. And I'm sure there is still much debate to be had. Anyway, please enjoy if you're interested.
Thanks for making this!
One problem I see so far: You state they can make ranged attacks from the echo. This is only for the normal attack action attacks and not the Unleash Incarnation feature:
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Q: Can you make a ranged attack (for example with a bow) from the Echo’s space? A: Yes, an attack action includes any attack using a ranged weapon as well.
Actually you may want to clarify this as it is partially true. You can with the normal attack action but not with the Unleash Incarnation feature.
Thanks for pointing this out. I've made the clarification in the FAQ.
Hey guys I've got four doubts regarding echoes and I did some reading here but this post was like a huge argument between 4 or 5 guys.
Getting to my point:
As I interpret the rules, you make opportunity attacks from your echoes position, meaning that feats you have apply on the target but your echo itself benefits from none of those feats, my main concern here is sentinel which I'd say works... to some extent, backing this:
(Echo) When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if youwere in the echo's space.
(OA) You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack interrupts the provoking creature’s movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach.
(Sentinel) When youhit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
I understand this this way, if I were to attack with my reaction using my subclass feature while having this feat, I would stop my enemy (even if just a single one) from coming anywhere closer than 25 ft. (Echo is at 30 ft., enemy tries to move, echo stops it right at melee range)
Okay, then comes the second benefit from Sentinel
Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
Which from my interpretation means you can't take your reaction through the echo, even if the enemy tried to get away from both yourself and it (Meaningful if such enemy does whatever thing rather to the attackers position than the attacker themselves when attacked).
And the sweetest and most broken of all Sentinel benefits for an Echo knight, since it's stated that the echo does not have your feats:
When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So this implies TWO things, enemies with the Sentinel feat can't attack either your echo nor you if you're further away than 5 feet from said enemy, as the echo states that your attacks originate from their position but those attacks aren't the echo's and the attacker (you) is not within those 5 feet.
And also, the very specific wording of Sentinel makes it so if said enemy decides to attack an object (wording here is target rather than creature) while you're on it's vicinity, you can attack it back. so if your enemy attacked an echo while being next to you, you can use your reaction to attack them.
If we were to use the optional flanking rule
Flanking on Squares.
When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy's space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.
An echo is an object, and therefore not a creature nor an ally, not applying for flank rules, so you can't benefit from this rule when you have no party, but you could position it to give yourself advantage on attacks if you have at least one ally, while not giving that ally themselves advantage.
Please and thank you correct me if I'm wrong on any of these.
P.S.: To the user ProxyJames, please retain yourself from answering anything asking from RAW or RAI rather than your houseruling in this thread anymore until you've actually gathered enough reading comprehension capabilities for doing so. To everyone, sorry if my English bothers you in the slightest, it's not my first language so I might screw up here and there, I will thankfully accept any correction to my writing, too.
As you (the character) make the opportunity attack through the echo, the first and second benefit of Sentinel would apply.
As the echo itself does not have the feat the third benefit would not trigger through the echo unless your character was within 5ft of the triggering creature, at which point you could attack that creature either from its position or from the echo's position using a melee weapon. Effectively, the third benefit is not relevant to an echo knight's echo.
You are also correct in thinking that you cannot flank with the echo as it is an object rather than a creature. I believe that you would still benefit from the flanking bonus when attacking through the echo if you are flanking with another creature though.
Unrelated: Unleash Incarnation is nasty given that you can use it twice in a turn where you action surge to attack twice. My DMs are already getting annoyed with it.
@rafaxexe. Your English was perfect, better than most people who have English as their first language.
1. You would stop the enemy from moving with the Sentinel feat. The echo makes no attacks, actions, reactions, bonus actions, or anything else. Echoes literally do nothing. You use your abilities that the subclass features specify through the echo's space. The echo never attacks, you attack, through it. It's like a portal.
2. Yes, since the creature isn't leaving your reach, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from a creature that takes the disengage action before moving away from your echo. Since the echo doesn't have a reach, and isn't you, you don't get to make an opportunity attack here.
3. Yes, both of your statements are correct. You cannot use this benefit through the echo, but it can benefit the echo.
4. Yes, flanking straight up has no interaction between the echo and anything else. Echo can't be flanked, can't flank, can't give flanking to others. They don't work together in any way.
(P.S. ProxyJames hasn't posted in a long time. I don't think he'll be responding to you for awhile.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The bolded emphasis is mine, and is entirely incorrect.
Sentinel's three parts are:
• Whenever you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, its speed drops to 0 for the rest of the turn. This stops any movement they may have been taking.
• Creatures within your reach provoke opportunity attacks even if they took the Disengage action.
• When a creature within your reach makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
Only one of these features gives a modification to Opportunity Attacks, the first. The second feature gives you an additional trigger for Opportunity Attacks, and the third features gives you a special reaction attack (note that it is NOT an Opportunity Attack).
You are focusing on this part, "as if you were in the echo's space." You should really read it in context to the entire line, "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space." Taking an Opportunity Attack "as if you were in the echo's space" only occurs AFTER you have used your reaction to do so, which can only occur AFTER a creature has moved away from the Echo. Creatures that are away from you but near the Echo don't count as being in your reach, therefore the second feature of the Sentinel feat cannot trigger, because they have to trigger an Opportunity Attack with their movement first, and THEN you count as being in the Echo's space. The same is true of the third feature, it doesn't count as being in your reach if an enemy is only next to an Echo, so you can't use your reaction to make the special reaction attack.
If flanking is being used in your game this is broken as shit. Level 3 you spend a bonus action to get advantage on all attacks, if thou take the feat that gives you triple advantage as an elf and then great weapon master you'll do insane damage. Then when you get level 7 you can get action surge to get 6 attacks in a single turn, all with triple advantage and +10 damage.
This sub class has the damage potential of an assassin rogue without the condition that they have to catch the enemy by surprise.
Level 10 you get to pretty much stop playing the game because there's nothing that seems to stop you from being able to just send echo after echo into combat on your behalf.
The echo doesn't grant you any kind of flanking. It's an object, not an ally.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Flanking itself is a busted variant rule and should not be used in my opinion anyway.
Flanking itself is fine, though I think some DMs (mine included) mistake flanking as pack tactics. Flanking is straight across, 12 - 6 for the benefit, where pack tactics is just multiple engagement leading to more advantage than there should be.
This is false. You do not get flanking from an object.
No, flanking isn't fine. Free advantage due to your buddy standing behind them to both people? That's broken. I use a +1 bonus to hit instead. Giving echoes flanking would be broken as well.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I like that homebrew ruling...still gives some benefit without being crazy.
Yeah, it's a good boost, not crazy, like advantage. It makes sense that flanking would give some benefit, but advantage is too broken to give just because you're standing on the opposite side of them as an ally.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Hi all. This thread has been most fascinating and has gotten me thinking about all the possibilities for Echo Knights. There are also a whole lot of confusion and questions around Echo Knights.
I find the fun and potential for Echo Knights to be really awesome, and over the course of learning about them, and reading the various debates, my perception of them has changed. At first I thought of Echos as physical clones of the main character, able to take independent actions. Now I view them more like illusions or ghost through which the main character can themselves attack or spy.
I find the mechanics are a mishmash of other D&D rules and features. For example, the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity ability, the Spiritual Weapon spell, or even Bigby's Hand. While I truly love the concept, and the versatility and tactics it allows, there are clearly a number of unresolved mechanical issues.
This has led me to try to create an Unofficial Echo Knight F.A.Q. of sorts to try to collect all the various questions and rules in one place. Many of the questions for the FAQ came from this thread. What I thought would be a small project turned into a much larger one. But feel free to take a look, suggest additions to it, or argue for changes.
This imperfect attempt at trying to make sense of Echo Knight rules is also for the community, and to help others understand what they are or are not capable of within the rules. That said, any DM or game can rule different. And I'm sure there is still much debate to be had. Anyway, please enjoy if you're interested.
Thanks for making this!
One problem I see so far: You state they can make ranged attacks from the echo. This is only for the normal attack action attacks and not the Unleash Incarnation feature:
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
May be worth calling this out.
Thanks for pointing this out. I've made the clarification in the FAQ.
Hey guys I've got four doubts regarding echoes and I did some reading here but this post was like a huge argument between 4 or 5 guys.
Getting to my point:
I understand this this way, if I were to attack with my reaction using my subclass feature while having this feat, I would stop my enemy (even if just a single one) from coming anywhere closer than 25 ft. (Echo is at 30 ft., enemy tries to move, echo stops it right at melee range)
Which from my interpretation means you can't take your reaction through the echo, even if the enemy tried to get away from both yourself and it (Meaningful if such enemy does whatever thing rather to the attackers position than the attacker themselves when attacked).
So this implies TWO things, enemies with the Sentinel feat can't attack either your echo nor you if you're further away than 5 feet from said enemy, as the echo states that your attacks originate from their position but those attacks aren't the echo's and the attacker (you) is not within those 5 feet.
And also, the very specific wording of Sentinel makes it so if said enemy decides to attack an object (wording here is target rather than creature) while you're on it's vicinity, you can attack it back. so if your enemy attacked an echo while being next to you, you can use your reaction to attack them.
An echo is an object, and therefore not a creature nor an ally, not applying for flank rules, so you can't benefit from this rule when you have no party, but you could position it to give yourself advantage on attacks if you have at least one ally, while not giving that ally themselves advantage.
Please and thank you correct me if I'm wrong on any of these.
P.S.: To the user ProxyJames, please retain yourself from answering anything asking from RAW or RAI rather than your houseruling in this thread anymore until you've actually gathered enough reading comprehension capabilities for doing so.
To everyone, sorry if my English bothers you in the slightest, it's not my first language so I might screw up here and there, I will thankfully accept any correction to my writing, too.
Edit: Fourth concern
As you (the character) make the opportunity attack through the echo, the first and second benefit of Sentinel would apply.
As the echo itself does not have the feat the third benefit would not trigger through the echo unless your character was within 5ft of the triggering creature, at which point you could attack that creature either from its position or from the echo's position using a melee weapon. Effectively, the third benefit is not relevant to an echo knight's echo.
You are also correct in thinking that you cannot flank with the echo as it is an object rather than a creature. I believe that you would still benefit from the flanking bonus when attacking through the echo if you are flanking with another creature though.
Unrelated: Unleash Incarnation is nasty given that you can use it twice in a turn where you action surge to attack twice. My DMs are already getting annoyed with it.
@rafaxexe. Your English was perfect, better than most people who have English as their first language.
1. You would stop the enemy from moving with the Sentinel feat. The echo makes no attacks, actions, reactions, bonus actions, or anything else. Echoes literally do nothing. You use your abilities that the subclass features specify through the echo's space. The echo never attacks, you attack, through it. It's like a portal.
2. Yes, since the creature isn't leaving your reach, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from a creature that takes the disengage action before moving away from your echo. Since the echo doesn't have a reach, and isn't you, you don't get to make an opportunity attack here.
3. Yes, both of your statements are correct. You cannot use this benefit through the echo, but it can benefit the echo.
4. Yes, flanking straight up has no interaction between the echo and anything else. Echo can't be flanked, can't flank, can't give flanking to others. They don't work together in any way.
(P.S. ProxyJames hasn't posted in a long time. I don't think he'll be responding to you for awhile.)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
@Koloth and @LeviRocks Thank you both for answering, I'm very glad the echo works this way.
No problem. Happy to help.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It isn’t treated as a creature, And Jeremy Crawford said that the “Echo can hang wherever you move it” meaning it would stay in the air, and not fall.
Yep. This is 100% true.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
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