Yeah. I've got two shortswords. Like, I understand the wording, but it just feels strange that my echo can attack but can't bonus action attack. And in that thought process... If my echo makes the first attack, can I still make my bonus action attack, since I can only make that after taking the attack action? If any attack I make can come from my echo, I think my bonus action attack should be able to also.
I half agree and half don't. The rules about bonus actions are weird in 5e. Like you can hold an action but not a bonus action. I just assume there is a reason for it in most cases. In this case the bonus action attack is already an extra attack many don't get done from another person's space via your echo (which already gets an extra attack). That means at lvl 5 you're getting 2 normal attacks (made by either you or your echo), 1 unleash incarnation attack, and a bonus action attack. If you action surge you get 3 more attacks on top of that totaling 7 attacks in a single turn, a feat before practically unheard of outside of an 11th lvl fighter or a monk/fighter multiclass. The echo knight subclass is already kind of op, so I think of this small drawback as more of a balancing thing.
I'm reading that differently, JC seems to be saying the echo is NOT a nonmagical object
"The fireball spell in D&D forces creatures to make a saving throw. The Echo Knight's echo is intentionally not a creature, so it doesn't make the save.
The shatter spell affects creatures and nonmagical objects. The echo is intentionally neither of those things. #DnD"
Ah, okay. I read the tweet incorrectly due to the double negative. So an echo is considered a magical object and would be affected by shatter.
Whether you can make an attack with a bonus action or not typically comes down to Two-Weapon Fighting. But regardless of how you can make the additional attack, it's still governed by its own rules. So is Manifest Echo; which already uses the fighter's bonus action to summon the echo. And it can be used repeatedly to grant new echoes without end. This is useful both if the previous echo was dispersed or if you need one in a place you can't just move the old one to. It's about tactical positioning. Never mind all the other possible features which might use the fighter's bonus action. At the very least, they have Second Wind. So, attacking through the echo is limited to the Attack action. That's just good design.
And because the echo is a magical object, it's actually immune to shatter.
I dont think the Attack Action requirement reduces overall damage output by any significant amount. Especially when you can double-team with the echo on a single target and still get the nova off. This works with 2-weapon fighting, BTW, just to clear that up. You can use your Action to attack through the Echo and follow up with your Bonus Action off-hand from your character's space.
That nova, BTW, is where I think the Echo Knight can certainly be considered OP. Granted, the subclass as a whole doesnt do anything to boost your individual attacks but Unleash Incarnation can let certain builds that get those boosts elsewhere really push the envelope. My crit-fishing Hexblade Echo Knight makes pretty good use of those 2 extra attacks (dropping an Action Surge to do so). Against a Cursed target with Hex going and Greatsword with GWM and the optional flanking rule to boot. Also, if you are a fighter with decent defense, you don't even need to utilize the Echo for this nova. Just get in the thick of it and swap out with the echo if things get rough.
Sorry if general chatter about the subclass isn't wanted in the FAQ thread.
Q: Can a reach weapon or other reach traits (such as a bug bear) be used in conjunction with the Echo Knight’s opportunity attack feature? A: No, because of the specific wording for the distances.
Manifest Echo says, "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can…"
You can't completly remove the reach property from this statement.
Yes, if a creature is at least 10 feet away from the echo at the start of its turn ang walks away from it, you won't get an AoO.
But if the enemy starts it's turn within 5 feet of the echo and then moves away, you can use an AoO on the enemy while they are 10 feet away (since they moved at least5 feet away from it), if you use a reach weapon or feature. This can play together with the sentinel feat, since it would remove the enemys movement 10 feet away from the echo, out of the usual attack range. This should not be disregarded.
As for range, here's the text: If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
Looks like your interpretation is: ( If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you) (at the end of your turn, it is destroyed). If that was the meaning, I would expect this punctuation: " If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you*,* at the end of your turn it is destroyed."
My interpretation is: (If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn), (it is destroyed).
I think my interpretation is supported by the punctuation, meaning that you can get farther away but can't end your turn more than 30 feet from the Echo. Make sense?
As for range, here's the text: If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
Looks like your interpretation is: ( If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you) (at the end of your turn, it is destroyed). If that was the meaning, I would expect this punctuation: " If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you*,* at the end of your turn it is destroyed."
My interpretation is: (If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn), (it is destroyed).
I think my interpretation is supported by the punctuation, meaning that you can get farther away but can't end your turn more than 30 feet from the Echo. Make sense?
I’m okay with this logic. Does anyone else have a counter argument before I make a FAQ update?
Q: Can a reach weapon or other reach traits (such as a bug bear) be used in conjunction with the Echo Knight’s opportunity attack feature? A: No, because of the specific wording for the distances.
Manifest Echo says, "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can…"
You can't completly remove the reach property from this statement.
Yes, if a creature is at least 10 feet away from the echo at the start of its turn ang walks away from it, you won't get an AoO.
But if the enemy starts it's turn within 5 feet of the echo and then moves away, you can use an AoO on the enemy while they are 10 feet away (since they moved at least5 feet away from it), if you use a reach weapon or feature. This can play together with the sentinel feat, since it would remove the enemys movement 10 feet away from the echo, out of the usual attack range. This should not be disregarded.
I see you logic here. And the wording of the FAQ answer could be better. You of course can still use a reach weapon for the opportunity attack when they move away from the Echo.
But I am a bit confused by your other statements. Are you saying that you could forgo the OA using a reach weapon until the enemy moves more than 10ft away (assuming they started next to the Echo)?
As for how it works with Sentinel, can you explain that further please? Are you saying that you can choose to stop their movement 5 OR 10 feet from the Echo?
Sorry, I am on mobile right now so the formating might be a bit wonky:
-"Are you saying that you could forgo the OA using a reach weapon until the enemy moves more than 10ft away (assuming they started next to the Echo)?"_
To give a detailed example:
- Enemy starts his turn within 5 feet of the echo
- Enemy moves 30 feet away, so it would trigger the echos feature after 5, 10, 15, etc. feet of the movement (as far as I understood it, since all those movements are at least 5 feet).
- Now depending on the wielded weapon you might choose at which point you use your OA.
-- case 1: If you use a normal reached weapon, like a longsword, it would make sense to use it at 5 feet, like a normal OA, since at 10 feet the enemy would be out of your reach.
-- case 2: If you use a ranged weapon you should be able to choose if you make the OA at 5 or 10 feet, since both distances trigger the effect, and both could reach the enemy.
-- case 3: if you have additional features like the bugbear, you might be able to choose if you trigger it at 5, 10 or 15 feet.
-- (as usual with OA, the attack triggers before the movement, so for case 1 within 5 feet, case 2 within 10 feet etc.)
-- now, wherever you make that OA (while having sentinel), at that point the enemy loses their movement, which in case 2 and 3 could mean 10 or 15 feet away from the echo.
So if I understood your questions correct: yes, you understood my statements correct.
Also want to mention: thanks for this FAQ. It's really well made and appreciated :D
-- case 2: If you use a ranged weapon you should be able to choose if you make the OA at 5 or 10 feet, since both distances trigger the effect, and both could reach the enemy.
I assume you meant a "weapon with reach" instead of a "ranged weapon"?
Question for you. Does a reach weapon like a glaive provide OAs at 5 OR 10 feet if wielded by the Knight or any normal character? Or is it only at 10ft? Now, because of how Manifest Echo is worded, would you give a player a choice as to where to take an opportunity attack?
-- case 3: if you have additional features like the bugbear, you might be able to choose if you trigger it at 5, 10 or 15 feet.
I don't think a bugbear's reach can be applied to opportunity attacks at all, regardless of weapon. I think it only applies to "attack actions", but correct me if I'm wrong. I guess I could clarify this in the FAQ answer as well.
For the normal OA you can only take the max range, since it is written as "when an enemy leaves your range", but as you mentioned, the echos word is different with "if the enemy moves away at least 5 feet". But i guess it could be limited/interpreted as it allows an OA from the echos space, so you have to meet the requirement of the echos feature and the normal OA (at least 5 feet and out of your reach).
You are right, bugbears reach only works during your own turn, forgot that.
For the normal OA you can only take the max range, since it is written as "when an enemy leaves your range", but as you mentioned, the echos word is different with "if the enemy moves away at least 5 feet". But i guess it could be limited/interpreted as it allows an OA from the echos space, so you have to meet the requirement of the echos feature and the normal OA (at least 5 feet and out of your reach).
You are right, bugbears reach only works during your own turn, forgot that.
Any thoughts then on who you would re-write the question or answer for the FAQ?
"Q: Can a reach weapon or other reach traits (such as a bug bear) be used in conjunction with the Echo Knight’s opportunity attack feature?
A: This depends, if the creature was within 5 feet of your echo at some point of the turn and moved away from the echo afterwards. If that is the case, you may use your reaction for an opportunity attack, using any range avaliabe to you with your melee weapon attack, originating from the echos space."
"Q: Can a reach weapon or other reach traits (such as a bug bear) be used in conjunction with the Echo Knight’s opportunity attack feature?
A: This depends, if the creature was within 5 feet of your echo at some point of the turn and moved away from the echo afterwards. If that is the case, you may use your reaction for an opportunity attack, using any range avaliabe to you with your melee weapon attack, originating from the echos space."
The feature is worded rather plainly. It doesn't care if your character has a Reach weapon equipped or not. It only cares if a creature is within 5 feet of the echo and then moves 5 feet away from the echo.
The weapon can absolutely be used. And it can be used when, ordinarily, the fighter would be incapable of making an Opportunity Attack; since creatures must ordinarily leave the fighter's reach.
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
RAW no... but I see your point...
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
RAW no... but I see your point...
I agree with Devan. Raw is no. That would be DM fiat, if it happened. So make your case and maybe the DM will agree with you? :)
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
RAW no... but I see your point...
I agree with Devan. Raw is no. That would be DM fiat, if it happened. So make your case and maybe the DM will agree with you? :)
It cuts both ways, really. If an enemy with Darkvision can't see the Echo, then neither can the fighter. Neither can any of their teammates.
Which means depriving the fighter of their subclass-defining feature in darkness.
Which is just not going to happen.
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Yeah. I've got two shortswords. Like, I understand the wording, but it just feels strange that my echo can attack but can't bonus action attack. And in that thought process... If my echo makes the first attack, can I still make my bonus action attack, since I can only make that after taking the attack action?
If any attack I make can come from my echo, I think my bonus action attack should be able to also.
I half agree and half don't. The rules about bonus actions are weird in 5e. Like you can hold an action but not a bonus action. I just assume there is a reason for it in most cases. In this case the bonus action attack is already an extra attack many don't get done from another person's space via your echo (which already gets an extra attack). That means at lvl 5 you're getting 2 normal attacks (made by either you or your echo), 1 unleash incarnation attack, and a bonus action attack. If you action surge you get 3 more attacks on top of that totaling 7 attacks in a single turn, a feat before practically unheard of outside of an 11th lvl fighter or a monk/fighter multiclass. The echo knight subclass is already kind of op, so I think of this small drawback as more of a balancing thing.
Ah, okay. I read the tweet incorrectly due to the double negative. So an echo is considered a magical object and would be affected by shatter.
Let's clear a few things up.
Whether you can make an attack with a bonus action or not typically comes down to Two-Weapon Fighting. But regardless of how you can make the additional attack, it's still governed by its own rules. So is Manifest Echo; which already uses the fighter's bonus action to summon the echo. And it can be used repeatedly to grant new echoes without end. This is useful both if the previous echo was dispersed or if you need one in a place you can't just move the old one to. It's about tactical positioning. Never mind all the other possible features which might use the fighter's bonus action. At the very least, they have Second Wind. So, attacking through the echo is limited to the Attack action. That's just good design.
And because the echo is a magical object, it's actually immune to shatter.
I dont think the Attack Action requirement reduces overall damage output by any significant amount. Especially when you can double-team with the echo on a single target and still get the nova off. This works with 2-weapon fighting, BTW, just to clear that up. You can use your Action to attack through the Echo and follow up with your Bonus Action off-hand from your character's space.
That nova, BTW, is where I think the Echo Knight can certainly be considered OP. Granted, the subclass as a whole doesnt do anything to boost your individual attacks but Unleash Incarnation can let certain builds that get those boosts elsewhere really push the envelope. My crit-fishing Hexblade Echo Knight makes pretty good use of those 2 extra attacks (dropping an Action Surge to do so). Against a Cursed target with Hex going and Greatsword with GWM and the optional flanking rule to boot. Also, if you are a fighter with decent defense, you don't even need to utilize the Echo for this nova. Just get in the thick of it and swap out with the echo if things get rough.
Sorry if general chatter about the subclass isn't wanted in the FAQ thread.
That makes sense.
I have a disagreement:
Oportunity Attacks, 2:
Thanks for all the effort, very much appreciated!
As for range, here's the text: If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
Looks like your interpretation is: ( If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you) (at the end of your turn, it is destroyed). If that was the meaning, I would expect this punctuation: " If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you*,* at the end of your turn it is destroyed."
My interpretation is: (If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn), (it is destroyed).
I think my interpretation is supported by the punctuation, meaning that you can get farther away but can't end your turn more than 30 feet from the Echo. Make sense?
I’m okay with this logic. Does anyone else have a counter argument before I make a FAQ update?
I see you logic here. And the wording of the FAQ answer could be better. You of course can still use a reach weapon for the opportunity attack when they move away from the Echo.
But I am a bit confused by your other statements. Are you saying that you could forgo the OA using a reach weapon until the enemy moves more than 10ft away (assuming they started next to the Echo)?
As for how it works with Sentinel, can you explain that further please? Are you saying that you can choose to stop their movement 5 OR 10 feet from the Echo?
Sorry, I am on mobile right now so the formating might be a bit wonky:
-"Are you saying that you could forgo the OA using a reach weapon until the enemy moves more than 10ft away (assuming they started next to the Echo)?"_
To give a detailed example:
- Enemy starts his turn within 5 feet of the echo
- Enemy moves 30 feet away, so it would trigger the echos feature after 5, 10, 15, etc. feet of the movement (as far as I understood it, since all those movements are at least 5 feet).
- Now depending on the wielded weapon you might choose at which point you use your OA.
-- case 1: If you use a normal reached weapon, like a longsword, it would make sense to use it at 5 feet, like a normal OA, since at 10 feet the enemy would be out of your reach.
-- case 2: If you use a ranged weapon you should be able to choose if you make the OA at 5 or 10 feet, since both distances trigger the effect, and both could reach the enemy.
-- case 3: if you have additional features like the bugbear, you might be able to choose if you trigger it at 5, 10 or 15 feet.
-- (as usual with OA, the attack triggers before the movement, so for case 1 within 5 feet, case 2 within 10 feet etc.)
-- now, wherever you make that OA (while having sentinel), at that point the enemy loses their movement, which in case 2 and 3 could mean 10 or 15 feet away from the echo.
So if I understood your questions correct: yes, you understood my statements correct.
Also want to mention: thanks for this FAQ. It's really well made and appreciated :D
I assume you meant a "weapon with reach" instead of a "ranged weapon"?
Question for you. Does a reach weapon like a glaive provide OAs at 5 OR 10 feet if wielded by the Knight or any normal character? Or is it only at 10ft? Now, because of how Manifest Echo is worded, would you give a player a choice as to where to take an opportunity attack?
I don't think a bugbear's reach can be applied to opportunity attacks at all, regardless of weapon. I think it only applies to "attack actions", but correct me if I'm wrong. I guess I could clarify this in the FAQ answer as well.
You're welcome. So glad you find it useful. It is helpful for me too. I'm only sorry I haven't had more time/focus to keep it more up-to-date.
Yeah, meant reach weapon, not ranged.
For the normal OA you can only take the max range, since it is written as "when an enemy leaves your range", but as you mentioned, the echos word is different with "if the enemy moves away at least 5 feet". But i guess it could be limited/interpreted as it allows an OA from the echos space, so you have to meet the requirement of the echos feature and the normal OA (at least 5 feet and out of your reach).
You are right, bugbears reach only works during your own turn, forgot that.
Any thoughts then on who you would re-write the question or answer for the FAQ?
Personaly I would write it as
"Q: Can a reach weapon or other reach traits (such as a bug bear) be used in conjunction with the Echo Knight’s opportunity attack feature?
A: This depends, if the creature was within 5 feet of your echo at some point of the turn and moved away from the echo afterwards. If that is the case, you may use your reaction for an opportunity attack, using any range avaliabe to you with your melee weapon attack, originating from the echos space."
The feature is worded rather plainly. It doesn't care if your character has a Reach weapon equipped or not. It only cares if a creature is within 5 feet of the echo and then moves 5 feet away from the echo.
The weapon can absolutely be used. And it can be used when, ordinarily, the fighter would be incapable of making an Opportunity Attack; since creatures must ordinarily leave the fighter's reach.
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
RAW no... but I see your point...
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I agree with Devan. Raw is no. That would be DM fiat, if it happened. So make your case and maybe the DM will agree with you? :)
It cuts both ways, really. If an enemy with Darkvision can't see the Echo, then neither can the fighter. Neither can any of their teammates.
Which means depriving the fighter of their subclass-defining feature in darkness.
Which is just not going to happen.