Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
Something to keep in mind. Mercer's chronomages and gravimages are not fully official. So there are interactions there that are missing when it comes to some of the official materials such as the echo knight and there always will be. So the intereactions in regards to certain things even if they are thought of are disregarded. Just like Most multi-class interactions are disregarded and unthought of. Which is why we have issues like the Soul Knife which doesn't interact with any extra attack features and ends up basically unarmed for half of it's turn for rogues as well or the situation where the Gunslinger subclass and the fire arms introduced along with it don't entirely mix smoothly with the official firearms in the game and feat that exists for them. It also puts us in an interesting position that many of these things will never be officially addressed either.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
Something to keep in mind. Mercer's chronomages and gravimages are not fully official. So there are interactions there that are missing when it comes to some of the official materials such as the echo knight and there always will be. So the intereactions in regards to certain things even if they are thought of are disregarded. Just like Most multi-class interactions are disregarded and unthought of. Which is why we have issues like the Soul Knife which doesn't interact with any extra attack features and ends up basically unarmed for half of it's turn for rogues as well or the situation where the Gunslinger subclass and the fire arms introduced along with it don't entirely mix smoothly with the official firearms in the game and feat that exists for them. It also puts us in an interesting position that many of these things will never be officially addressed either.
uhhhh Chronurgist and Graviturgist *are* official, they were in Wildemount just like Echo Knight.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I'm kinda new to Dnd so the thing you said about being repetitive are all new to me and quite enjoyable as of the time of writing. The reason I asked because I made a echo knight 3/wizard X. I wanted a tanky wizard and looked for a good fighter subclass and stumbled upon echo knight.
What I wanted initially was to make the echo just a meat shield for melee enemies before they could reach my wizard. Then what happened was enemies are ignoring my echo because its attack of opportunity don't have enough damage. So then I searched if I could activate booming blade as I already have warcaster to add more damage and they wouldn't ignore my echo anymore.
I think that's a waste of three levels, if I'm behing being honest. Casting booming blade means making a melee attack with a manufactured weapon. You can't use your spellcasting ability, so you need a decent Strength or Dexterity score. The default 13 to multiclass isn't going to cut it, and 14 (+2 modifier) won't be helpful over a longer campaign.
The echo has an AC of anywhere from 16 to 20, so while it might not get hit often it'll go down whenever it does. And constantly moving it or teleporting is going to tie up your bonus action. This means you're not casting one of the wizard's many bonus action spells, never mind the loss of three levels of spellcasting. But, hey, you're proficient in at least medium armor and shields, depending on when you multiclassed, so your AC should be decent. Though, you could get most of that by playing a mountain dwarf. Or just one level of multiclassing. Or even a Fateful Moment that I rolled and turned into a feat for my halfling rogue.
You were press-ganged into military service, and were left shaken by what you saw on the battlefield. You have proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons. You also have a random form of indefinite madness, determined by rolling on the Indefinite Madness table in chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
I think your wizard is tanky enough without the echo knight.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
Something to keep in mind. Mercer's chronomages and gravimages are not fully official. So there are interactions there that are missing when it comes to some of the official materials such as the echo knight and there always will be. So the intereactions in regards to certain things even if they are thought of are disregarded. Just like Most multi-class interactions are disregarded and unthought of. Which is why we have issues like the Soul Knife which doesn't interact with any extra attack features and ends up basically unarmed for half of it's turn for rogues as well or the situation where the Gunslinger subclass and the fire arms introduced along with it don't entirely mix smoothly with the official firearms in the game and feat that exists for them. It also puts us in an interesting position that many of these things will never be officially addressed either.
As has already been pointed out, the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is an official publication by Wizards of the Coast. Wildemount is, officially, the first full new setting for Dungeons and Dragons since Eberron. (The Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting was never fully realized.)
The echo knight, chronoturgist, and graviturgist are very official.
Multiclassing is also an optional rule, and classes need not be written with multiclassing in mind. After all, multiclassing has its own, separate section in the PHB. So, if there is a multiclassed Soul Knife rogue out there somewhere, and there probably is, the DM will decide how it behaves. But as written, it doesn't break anything if they can attack with the same blade for every attack made with their Attack action. They can even manifest it when taking an Opportunity Attack or if under the effect of the haste spell.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
Something to keep in mind. Mercer's chronomages and gravimages are not fully official. So there are interactions there that are missing when it comes to some of the official materials such as the echo knight and there always will be. So the intereactions in regards to certain things even if they are thought of are disregarded. Just like Most multi-class interactions are disregarded and unthought of. Which is why we have issues like the Soul Knife which doesn't interact with any extra attack features and ends up basically unarmed for half of it's turn for rogues as well or the situation where the Gunslinger subclass and the fire arms introduced along with it don't entirely mix smoothly with the official firearms in the game and feat that exists for them. It also puts us in an interesting position that many of these things will never be officially addressed either.
As has already been pointed out, the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is an official publication by Wizards of the Coast. Wildemount is, officially, the first full new setting for Dungeons and Dragons since Eberron. (The Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting was never fully realized.)
The echo knight, chronoturgist, and graviturgist are very official.
Multiclassing is also an optional rule, and classes need not be written with multiclassing in mind. After all, multiclassing has its own, separate section in the PHB. So, if there is a multiclassed Soul Knife rogue out there somewhere, and there probably is, the DM will decide how it behaves. But as written, it doesn't break anything if they can attack with the same blade for every attack made with their Attack action. They can even manifest it when taking an Opportunity Attack or if under the effect of the haste spell.
I was mixing up Wildemount with the Tal'Dorei book an I didn't remember Echo Knight being in the wilde mount book. I'm only now getting back to this thread.
And I didn't say the Soul Knife broke anything. I was just stating by the way it's written. it doesn't actually interact. That is different. People are free to fix thta at their table as they wish. As you have told others in the past in other threads. But it is important to remember that is a table level fix. Not how it works automatically. And it's far from the only example of such things. It's just one of the more notable ones.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
Something to keep in mind. Mercer's chronomages and gravimages are not fully official. So there are interactions there that are missing when it comes to some of the official materials such as the echo knight and there always will be. So the intereactions in regards to certain things even if they are thought of are disregarded. Just like Most multi-class interactions are disregarded and unthought of. Which is why we have issues like the Soul Knife which doesn't interact with any extra attack features and ends up basically unarmed for half of it's turn for rogues as well or the situation where the Gunslinger subclass and the fire arms introduced along with it don't entirely mix smoothly with the official firearms in the game and feat that exists for them. It also puts us in an interesting position that many of these things will never be officially addressed either.
As has already been pointed out, the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is an official publication by Wizards of the Coast. Wildemount is, officially, the first full new setting for Dungeons and Dragons since Eberron. (The Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting was never fully realized.)
The echo knight, chronoturgist, and graviturgist are very official.
Multiclassing is also an optional rule, and classes need not be written with multiclassing in mind. After all, multiclassing has its own, separate section in the PHB. So, if there is a multiclassed Soul Knife rogue out there somewhere, and there probably is, the DM will decide how it behaves. But as written, it doesn't break anything if they can attack with the same blade for every attack made with their Attack action. They can even manifest it when taking an Opportunity Attack or if under the effect of the haste spell.
I was mixing up Wildemount with the Tal'Dorei book an I didn't remember Echo Knight being in the wilde mount book. I'm only now getting back to this thread.
And I didn't say the Soul Knife broke anything. I was just stating by the way it's written. it doesn't actually interact. That is different. People are free to fix thta at their table as they wish. As you have told others in the past in other threads. But it is important to remember that is a table level fix. Not how it works automatically. And it's far from the only example of such things. It's just one of the more notable ones.
Well...
You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage.
So whenever you attack with the Attack action, you manifest a blade for each attack you take. They do interact. And you're not limited to doing it on your turn.
You're just manifesting two blades: one for each attack.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
Something to keep in mind. Mercer's chronomages and gravimages are not fully official. So there are interactions there that are missing when it comes to some of the official materials such as the echo knight and there always will be. So the intereactions in regards to certain things even if they are thought of are disregarded. Just like Most multi-class interactions are disregarded and unthought of. Which is why we have issues like the Soul Knife which doesn't interact with any extra attack features and ends up basically unarmed for half of it's turn for rogues as well or the situation where the Gunslinger subclass and the fire arms introduced along with it don't entirely mix smoothly with the official firearms in the game and feat that exists for them. It also puts us in an interesting position that many of these things will never be officially addressed either.
As has already been pointed out, the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is an official publication by Wizards of the Coast. Wildemount is, officially, the first full new setting for Dungeons and Dragons since Eberron. (The Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting was never fully realized.)
The echo knight, chronoturgist, and graviturgist are very official.
Multiclassing is also an optional rule, and classes need not be written with multiclassing in mind. After all, multiclassing has its own, separate section in the PHB. So, if there is a multiclassed Soul Knife rogue out there somewhere, and there probably is, the DM will decide how it behaves. But as written, it doesn't break anything if they can attack with the same blade for every attack made with their Attack action. They can even manifest it when taking an Opportunity Attack or if under the effect of the haste spell.
I was mixing up Wildemount with the Tal'Dorei book an I didn't remember Echo Knight being in the wilde mount book. I'm only now getting back to this thread.
And I didn't say the Soul Knife broke anything. I was just stating by the way it's written. it doesn't actually interact. That is different. People are free to fix thta at their table as they wish. As you have told others in the past in other threads. But it is important to remember that is a table level fix. Not how it works automatically. And it's far from the only example of such things. It's just one of the more notable ones.
Well...
You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage.
So whenever you attack with the Attack action, you manifest a blade for each attack you take. They do interact. And you're not limited to doing it on your turn.
You're just manifesting two blades: one for each attack.
Except they don't interact. It says the Attack. Singular. Not The Attacks, Or Each Attack. Which would be plural. Extra Attack is only gained through Multi-classing and WotC ignores such things most of the time when writing rules and has told us this from the beginning. So the word is over a single attack as RaW. It makes no special clarification for the second Attack from Extra Attack.
It's specification as written. Even by what you Copy is One dagger for One attack when you use the Attack action and OnE for the bonus Action. Arguably making room for the AoO because of it being a "different Turn" and everything that people do with that wording.
Now you can argue that the Intent is that Because Extra Attack makes a specific change that THE attack becomes two Attacks that it automaticaly changes the wording of the power to create Psychic blades. But that is an Intent Argument. Not a RaW argument. Because by RaW Extra Attack is changing the basic attack Action but not the Power involved for the Rogue. The Power involved for the Rogue is usable through the Attack Action but is it's own rule. The Intent may be to combine them all but they do not necessarily entirely interact purely by RaW.
And Again. it doesn't realy hurt anything to combine them. But then there are a lot of things by RaW that it really doesn't hurt anything if we do it a bit differently. Some of them should in fact work differently and you and I can both name a bunch of them. And have even told people that we think they should and that RaW for them is a problem. But to be aware of the problem.
I'm kinda new to Dnd so the thing you said about being repetitive are all new to me and quite enjoyable as of the time of writing. The reason I asked because I made a echo knight 3/wizard X. I wanted a tanky wizard and looked for a good fighter subclass and stumbled upon echo knight.
What I wanted initially was to make the echo just a meat shield for melee enemies before they could reach my wizard. Then what happened was enemies are ignoring my echo because its attack of opportunity don't have enough damage. So then I searched if I could activate booming blade as I already have warcaster to add more damage and they wouldn't ignore my echo anymore.
I think that's a waste of three levels, if I'm behing being honest. Casting booming blade means making a melee attack with a manufactured weapon. You can't use your spellcasting ability, so you need a decent Strength or Dexterity score. The default 13 to multiclass isn't going to cut it, and 14 (+2 modifier) won't be helpful over a longer campaign.
The echo has an AC of anywhere from 16 to 20, so while it might not get hit often it'll go down whenever it does. And constantly moving it or teleporting is going to tie up your bonus action. This means you're not casting one of the wizard's many bonus action spells, never mind the loss of three levels of spellcasting. But, hey, you're proficient in at least medium armor and shields, depending on when you multiclassed, so your AC should be decent. Though, you could get most of that by playing a mountain dwarf. Or just one level of multiclassing. Or even a Fateful Moment that I rolled and turned into a feat for my halfling rogue.
You were press-ganged into military service, and were left shaken by what you saw on the battlefield. You have proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons. You also have a random form of indefinite madness, determined by rolling on the Indefinite Madness table in chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
I think your wizard is tanky enough without the echo knight.
Maybe it really is too much, but the ability to get in and out of the battle is satisfying and it saved my wizard a lot of times.
My wizard by the way is a divination and I focused on battle field control combined with portent.
Our DM is throwing a lot of encounters without letting us rest to increase the difficulty but my wiz have always a lot of spells left because I save my spells just for hideous laughter, grease, hypnotic pattern. And I don't cast shield that much.
Most of the time, the other party members like the paladin, fighter, cleric and one pure wizard are almost dying due to suprise enemies and lots of encounters. But my wiz is about 75-100% Hp most of the time.
We enjoy the difficulty and the way our DM handles things made us really think about optimisation which is fun for us.
I don't do much damage, but I shine through crowd control.
I read the faq and did not see an answer for this... how do you compute the range for ranged attacks that are delivered from the echo? for example if my character is 30' from the target and my echo is next to it could I deliver a net attack from the echo position? or how about if the echo is 10' from the target and I was 40 would a dart attack delivered from the echo be be considered short or long range?
It may of been asked already but I can't scroll through 22 pages of comments. But if the knight is affected by the blinded condition but has the blindsight fighting style which gives blindsight to 10 feet. Can you manifest the echo within 10 feet? Since it says "A space you can see within 10 feet".
It may of been asked already but I can't scroll through 22 pages of comments. But if the knight is affected by the blinded condition but has the blindsight fighting style which gives blindsight to 10 feet. Can you manifest the echo within 10 feet? Since it says "A space you can see within 10 feet".
Good question, I don't know that it has been answered. On first reading, blindsight says (emphasis mine), "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover...". That said, I assume blindsight let's you target spells at creatures or squares. But ultimately it is up to your DM.
Though do feel free to share your concept or idea, it sounds intriguing.
I read the faq and did not see an answer for this... how do you compute the range for ranged attacks that are delivered from the echo? for example if my character is 30' from the target and my echo is next to it could I deliver a net attack from the echo position? or how about if the echo is 10' from the target and I was 40 would a dart attack delivered from the echo be be considered short or long range?
for reference darts are 20/60
Good question. Manifest Echo states (emphasis mine), "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack." Thus, since the attack "originates" from the Echo's space, I assume range would then be calculated from the Echo's space.
I read the faq and did not see an answer for this... how do you compute the range for ranged attacks that are delivered from the echo? for example if my character is 30' from the target and my echo is next to it could I deliver a net attack from the echo position? or how about if the echo is 10' from the target and I was 40 would a dart attack delivered from the echo be be considered short or long range?
for reference darts are 20/60
Good question. Manifest Echo states (emphasis mine), "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack." Thus, since the attack "originates" from the Echo's space, I assume range would then be calculated from the Echo's space.
I read the faq and did not see an answer for this... how do you compute the range for ranged attacks that are delivered from the echo? for example if my character is 30' from the target and my echo is next to it could I deliver a net attack from the echo position? or how about if the echo is 10' from the target and I was 40 would a dart attack delivered from the echo be be considered short or long range?
for reference darts are 20/60
Good question. Manifest Echo states (emphasis mine), "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack." Thus, since the attack "originates" from the Echo's space, I assume range would then be calculated from the Echo's space.
This is correct. The range is determined from the echo's space as soon as you decide to shoot the ranged attack from the echo.
It may of been asked already but I can't scroll through 22 pages of comments. But if the knight is affected by the blinded condition but has the blindsight fighting style which gives blindsight to 10 feet. Can you manifest the echo within 10 feet? Since it says "A space you can see within 10 feet".
Good question, I don't know that it has been answered. On first reading, blindsight says (emphasis mine), "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover...". That said, I assume blindsight let's you target spells at creatures or squares. But ultimately it is up to your DM.
Though do feel free to share your concept or idea, it sounds intriguing.
for the purposes of the AoO from the echo, no you do not get the blindsight, since that requires you to see someone leaving the echo.
I think from the point of origin, you still don't get the echo because you aren't in the echo's space to have the blindsight radius. But I'm not 100% certain and I would like to see the consensus.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I read the faq and did not see an answer for this... how do you compute the range for ranged attacks that are delivered from the echo? for example if my character is 30' from the target and my echo is next to it could I deliver a net attack from the echo position? or how about if the echo is 10' from the target and I was 40 would a dart attack delivered from the echo be be considered short or long range?
for reference darts are 20/60
Good question. Manifest Echo states (emphasis mine), "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack." Thus, since the attack "originates" from the Echo's space, I assume range would then be calculated from the Echo's space.
This is correct. The range is determined from the echo's space as soon as you decide to shoot the ranged attack from the echo.
It may of been asked already but I can't scroll through 22 pages of comments. But if the knight is affected by the blinded condition but has the blindsight fighting style which gives blindsight to 10 feet. Can you manifest the echo within 10 feet? Since it says "A space you can see within 10 feet".
Good question, I don't know that it has been answered. On first reading, blindsight says (emphasis mine), "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover...". That said, I assume blindsight let's you target spells at creatures or squares. But ultimately it is up to your DM.
Though do feel free to share your concept or idea, it sounds intriguing.
for the purposes of the AoO from the echo, no you do not get the blindsight, since that requires you to see someone leaving the echo.
I think from the point of origin, you still don't get the echo because you aren't in the echo's space to have the blindsight radius. But I'm not 100% certain and I would like to see the consensus.
For making attacks from the Echo. Your basically correct.
One weakness to the echo that is almost always overlooked, at least by RaW, is the fact that despite being an echo of you. Nothing actually says it gets any special senses. Even the ones that you possess. By the way it's powers are written it's basically functioning off of your senses. Not any kind of senses of it's own. Even Echo Avatar doesn't actually address this weakness. It says you can see through it's eyes, or hear through it's ears. But it does not give any caveat that addresses special senses in any way. I won't go into any arguments whether this is intended or not here.
But this effectively means that if you cannot see the enemy. Your Echo cannot see the enemy either in general, with the only exception being when you use Echo Avatar and physically transfer to see and hear what it sees and hears.
However, When it comes to simply summoning your Echo. The only restriction is based upon it being an unoccupied square you can see. If you have Blindsight you can summon it within that blind sight range. But it's effectiveness may be diminished if whatever it might interact with is outside of your blindsight range because your not actually using it's senses and it doesn't have any RaW to have any special senses of it's own regardless of if you transfer to using it's senses or not.
However, When it comes to purely just summoning your Echo you would be able to do it within that blindsight range. Though it's usage from thta point may be limited if the enemy it would be interacting with is outside that range. Because again, by RaW, an overlooked limitation is nothing expressly gives it access to any special senses, not even during Echo Avatar, that you yourself might possess.
Edit: I find it interesting it just randomly lost part of my post when I hit send.
I understand that the Unleash Incarnation ability specifies melee attacks, my question is why? The other class abilities don't specify melee which makes me think there's an important reason why it does here, but I can't find anything saying why.
Backstory: I have a player in my homebrew campaign playing a ranged echo knight. It's my first time as DM, and his first time touching the echo knight, so this guide had been a big help, I've just noticed the melee restriction on UI and need to make a decision on whether to uphold the RAW, or allow him to continue using ranged attacks for UI. If I go RAW it would limit a major class ability from him and I don't want to ruin this character him (he's having a lot of fun with it).
Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!!
I understand that the Unleash Incarnation ability specifies melee attacks, my question is why? The other class abilities don't specify melee which makes me think there's an important reason why it does here, but I can't find anything saying why.
Backstory: I have a player in my homebrew campaign playing a ranged echo knight. It's my first time as DM, and his first time touching the echo knight, so this guide had been a big help, I've just noticed the melee restriction on UI and need to make a decision on whether to uphold the RAW, or allow him to continue using ranged attacks for UI. If I go RAW it would limit a major class ability from him and I don't want to ruin this character him (he's having a lot of fun with it).
Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!!
It's a weird bit of metaphysics, but I'll try to frame it into context.
The echo both is and isn't a copy of your character. It might look like you, but it doesn't have your armor or cloths, and any magical benefits conferred by them. You can attack with your weapon as if you were in its space, so if you have a flame tongue longsword then it might appear the same way. But if you have a bag of holding then it can't retrieve an item from it and use it or hand it off to an ally. You can't [Tooltip Not Found] from its space; using it, and not yourself, as the point of origin. And it lacks ammunition to make an ranged attack with.
It's the result of a space-time distortion, and a very localized one at that.
If you allow for ranged attacks, try to visualize that. Your fighter's arrow or bolt is, somehow, moving from their weapon to the echo's and being released there. It doesn't work. And you aren't using its senses to make the attack. You aren't aiming at the target from the echo's point of view. At best, it's like trying to make a side shot in basketball. You have little to no frame of reference for the angle of attack.
weird thing is when you make an attack it does not specify it has to be a melee attack:
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
Only when you use the extra attack from the Unleash Incarnation:
"You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position."
My belief is the intent was to be just melee attacks but the wording on the main ability does RAW allow ranged attacks.
I understand that the Unleash Incarnation ability specifies melee attacks, my question is why? The other class abilities don't specify melee which makes me think there's an important reason why it does here, but I can't find anything saying why.
Backstory: I have a player in my homebrew campaign playing a ranged echo knight. It's my first time as DM, and his first time touching the echo knight, so this guide had been a big help, I've just noticed the melee restriction on UI and need to make a decision on whether to uphold the RAW, or allow him to continue using ranged attacks for UI. If I go RAW it would limit a major class ability from him and I don't want to ruin this character him (he's having a lot of fun with it).
Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!!
Yes, you can make ranged attacks from your Echo's position, and it can be quite advantageous. However, you are also right in that by RAW, you can't use Unleash Incarnation to make a ranged attacked because it specifically states 'melee attack'. However this you already know.
Allowing Echo Knights, which some already consider a powerful sub-class, to make ranged attacks with Unleash Incarnation would increase their power further. I'm sure you can imagine a Echo floating 15' above a battle and raining down arrows while the Knight is camouflaged. However I can't think of any game breaking issues with allowing your player to use Unleash Incarnate with a ranged weapon.
I would imagine the more important things to consider are: how does the character balance with the rest of the party, and will you need to adjust the challenge level of the encounters they are facing? It would obviously be fun for the player to be able to do it, but I personally would just make sure it doesn't overshadow any other players. You might also 'reserve the right' to re-assess your decision if it becomes unbalanced or abused.
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Something to keep in mind. Mercer's chronomages and gravimages are not fully official. So there are interactions there that are missing when it comes to some of the official materials such as the echo knight and there always will be. So the intereactions in regards to certain things even if they are thought of are disregarded. Just like Most multi-class interactions are disregarded and unthought of. Which is why we have issues like the Soul Knife which doesn't interact with any extra attack features and ends up basically unarmed for half of it's turn for rogues as well or the situation where the Gunslinger subclass and the fire arms introduced along with it don't entirely mix smoothly with the official firearms in the game and feat that exists for them. It also puts us in an interesting position that many of these things will never be officially addressed either.
uhhhh Chronurgist and Graviturgist *are* official, they were in Wildemount just like Echo Knight.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I think that's a waste of three levels, if I'm behing being honest. Casting booming blade means making a melee attack with a manufactured weapon. You can't use your spellcasting ability, so you need a decent Strength or Dexterity score. The default 13 to multiclass isn't going to cut it, and 14 (+2 modifier) won't be helpful over a longer campaign.
The echo has an AC of anywhere from 16 to 20, so while it might not get hit often it'll go down whenever it does. And constantly moving it or teleporting is going to tie up your bonus action. This means you're not casting one of the wizard's many bonus action spells, never mind the loss of three levels of spellcasting. But, hey, you're proficient in at least medium armor and shields, depending on when you multiclassed, so your AC should be decent. Though, you could get most of that by playing a mountain dwarf. Or just one level of multiclassing. Or even a Fateful Moment that I rolled and turned into a feat for my halfling rogue.
I think your wizard is tanky enough without the echo knight.
As has already been pointed out, the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is an official publication by Wizards of the Coast. Wildemount is, officially, the first full new setting for Dungeons and Dragons since Eberron. (The Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting was never fully realized.)
The echo knight, chronoturgist, and graviturgist are very official.
Multiclassing is also an optional rule, and classes need not be written with multiclassing in mind. After all, multiclassing has its own, separate section in the PHB. So, if there is a multiclassed Soul Knife rogue out there somewhere, and there probably is, the DM will decide how it behaves. But as written, it doesn't break anything if they can attack with the same blade for every attack made with their Attack action. They can even manifest it when taking an Opportunity Attack or if under the effect of the haste spell.
I was mixing up Wildemount with the Tal'Dorei book an I didn't remember Echo Knight being in the wilde mount book. I'm only now getting back to this thread.
And I didn't say the Soul Knife broke anything. I was just stating by the way it's written. it doesn't actually interact. That is different. People are free to fix thta at their table as they wish. As you have told others in the past in other threads. But it is important to remember that is a table level fix. Not how it works automatically. And it's far from the only example of such things. It's just one of the more notable ones.
Well...
So whenever you attack with the Attack action, you manifest a blade for each attack you take. They do interact. And you're not limited to doing it on your turn.
You're just manifesting two blades: one for each attack.
Except they don't interact. It says the Attack. Singular. Not The Attacks, Or Each Attack. Which would be plural. Extra Attack is only gained through Multi-classing and WotC ignores such things most of the time when writing rules and has told us this from the beginning. So the word is over a single attack as RaW. It makes no special clarification for the second Attack from Extra Attack.
It's specification as written. Even by what you Copy is One dagger for One attack when you use the Attack action and OnE for the bonus Action. Arguably making room for the AoO because of it being a "different Turn" and everything that people do with that wording.
Now you can argue that the Intent is that Because Extra Attack makes a specific change that THE attack becomes two Attacks that it automaticaly changes the wording of the power to create Psychic blades. But that is an Intent Argument. Not a RaW argument. Because by RaW Extra Attack is changing the basic attack Action but not the Power involved for the Rogue. The Power involved for the Rogue is usable through the Attack Action but is it's own rule. The Intent may be to combine them all but they do not necessarily entirely interact purely by RaW.
And Again. it doesn't realy hurt anything to combine them. But then there are a lot of things by RaW that it really doesn't hurt anything if we do it a bit differently. Some of them should in fact work differently and you and I can both name a bunch of them. And have even told people that we think they should and that RaW for them is a problem. But to be aware of the problem.
Maybe it really is too much, but the ability to get in and out of the battle is satisfying and it saved my wizard a lot of times.
My wizard by the way is a divination and I focused on battle field control combined with portent.
Our DM is throwing a lot of encounters without letting us rest to increase the difficulty but my wiz have always a lot of spells left because I save my spells just for hideous laughter, grease, hypnotic pattern. And I don't cast shield that much.
Most of the time, the other party members like the paladin, fighter, cleric and one pure wizard are almost dying due to suprise enemies and lots of encounters. But my wiz is about 75-100% Hp most of the time.
We enjoy the difficulty and the way our DM handles things made us really think about optimisation which is fun for us.
I don't do much damage, but I shine through crowd control.
I read the faq and did not see an answer for this... how do you compute the range for ranged attacks that are delivered from the echo? for example if my character is 30' from the target and my echo is next to it could I deliver a net attack from the echo position? or how about if the echo is 10' from the target and I was 40 would a dart attack delivered from the echo be be considered short or long range?
for reference darts are 20/60
It may of been asked already but I can't scroll through 22 pages of comments. But if the knight is affected by the blinded condition but has the blindsight fighting style which gives blindsight to 10 feet. Can you manifest the echo within 10 feet? Since it says "A space you can see within 10 feet".
Good question, I don't know that it has been answered. On first reading, blindsight says (emphasis mine), "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover...". That said, I assume blindsight let's you target spells at creatures or squares. But ultimately it is up to your DM.
Though do feel free to share your concept or idea, it sounds intriguing.
Good question. Manifest Echo states (emphasis mine), "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack." Thus, since the attack "originates" from the Echo's space, I assume range would then be calculated from the Echo's space.
I would rule it the same way.
This is correct. The range is determined from the echo's space as soon as you decide to shoot the ranged attack from the echo.
for the purposes of the AoO from the echo, no you do not get the blindsight, since that requires you to see someone leaving the echo.
I think from the point of origin, you still don't get the echo because you aren't in the echo's space to have the blindsight radius. But I'm not 100% certain and I would like to see the consensus.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
For making attacks from the Echo. Your basically correct.
One weakness to the echo that is almost always overlooked, at least by RaW, is the fact that despite being an echo of you. Nothing actually says it gets any special senses. Even the ones that you possess. By the way it's powers are written it's basically functioning off of your senses. Not any kind of senses of it's own. Even Echo Avatar doesn't actually address this weakness. It says you can see through it's eyes, or hear through it's ears. But it does not give any caveat that addresses special senses in any way. I won't go into any arguments whether this is intended or not here.
But this effectively means that if you cannot see the enemy. Your Echo cannot see the enemy either in general, with the only exception being when you use Echo Avatar and physically transfer to see and hear what it sees and hears.
However, When it comes to simply summoning your Echo. The only restriction is based upon it being an unoccupied square you can see. If you have Blindsight you can summon it within that blind sight range. But it's effectiveness may be diminished if whatever it might interact with is outside of your blindsight range because your not actually using it's senses and it doesn't have any RaW to have any special senses of it's own regardless of if you transfer to using it's senses or not.
However, When it comes to purely just summoning your Echo you would be able to do it within that blindsight range. Though it's usage from thta point may be limited if the enemy it would be interacting with is outside that range. Because again, by RaW, an overlooked limitation is nothing expressly gives it access to any special senses, not even during Echo Avatar, that you yourself might possess.
Edit: I find it interesting it just randomly lost part of my post when I hit send.
I understand that the Unleash Incarnation ability specifies melee attacks, my question is why? The other class abilities don't specify melee which makes me think there's an important reason why it does here, but I can't find anything saying why.
Backstory: I have a player in my homebrew campaign playing a ranged echo knight. It's my first time as DM, and his first time touching the echo knight, so this guide had been a big help, I've just noticed the melee restriction on UI and need to make a decision on whether to uphold the RAW, or allow him to continue using ranged attacks for UI. If I go RAW it would limit a major class ability from him and I don't want to ruin this character him (he's having a lot of fun with it).
Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!!
By RAW it isn't allowed, but I'm not sure why. I don't think it would be OP, as you can use the other attacks as ranged.
House rule it, if I was you
It's a weird bit of metaphysics, but I'll try to frame it into context.
The echo both is and isn't a copy of your character. It might look like you, but it doesn't have your armor or cloths, and any magical benefits conferred by them. You can attack with your weapon as if you were in its space, so if you have a flame tongue longsword then it might appear the same way. But if you have a bag of holding then it can't retrieve an item from it and use it or hand it off to an ally. You can't [Tooltip Not Found] from its space; using it, and not yourself, as the point of origin. And it lacks ammunition to make an ranged attack with.
It's the result of a space-time distortion, and a very localized one at that.
If you allow for ranged attacks, try to visualize that. Your fighter's arrow or bolt is, somehow, moving from their weapon to the echo's and being released there. It doesn't work. And you aren't using its senses to make the attack. You aren't aiming at the target from the echo's point of view. At best, it's like trying to make a side shot in basketball. You have little to no frame of reference for the angle of attack.
weird thing is when you make an attack it does not specify it has to be a melee attack:
Only when you use the extra attack from the Unleash Incarnation:
"You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position."
My belief is the intent was to be just melee attacks but the wording on the main ability does RAW allow ranged attacks.
Yes, you can make ranged attacks from your Echo's position, and it can be quite advantageous. However, you are also right in that by RAW, you can't use Unleash Incarnation to make a ranged attacked because it specifically states 'melee attack'. However this you already know.
Allowing Echo Knights, which some already consider a powerful sub-class, to make ranged attacks with Unleash Incarnation would increase their power further. I'm sure you can imagine a Echo floating 15' above a battle and raining down arrows while the Knight is camouflaged. However I can't think of any game breaking issues with allowing your player to use Unleash Incarnate with a ranged weapon.
I would imagine the more important things to consider are: how does the character balance with the rest of the party, and will you need to adjust the challenge level of the encounters they are facing? It would obviously be fun for the player to be able to do it, but I personally would just make sure it doesn't overshadow any other players. You might also 'reserve the right' to re-assess your decision if it becomes unbalanced or abused.