If you allow for ranged attacks, try to visualize that. Your fighter's arrow or bolt is, somehow, moving from their weapon to the echo's and being released there. It doesn't work. And you aren't using its senses to make the attack. You aren't aiming at the target from the echo's point of view. At best, it's like trying to make a side shot in basketball. You have little to no frame of reference for the angle of attack.
Yah, I agree, it is a bit weird to imagine. Basically ammo or ranged weapons disappear from the Knight and appear thrown from the Echo. I like another description I read regarding the Echo Knight which described the Echo merely as a portal through which the Knight could attack. In many ways, this description aligns well with the actual rules, even if visualizing it is harder. Though it can certainly be flavored however the player would like.
For a Echo to attack with a sword, must the Knight also swing his sword, or can he just stand there without moving? Presumably and Echo must appear to be holding the same weapon as the Knight, but what happens if a Knight switches weapons, does the Echo also? If an Echo makes a ranged bow attack for example, does the arrow simply disappear from the Knight's quiver, or must the Knight first nock it on their bow and draw back?
The rules don't necessarily cover all these questions, and they are good ones to discuss with your DM. The answers to them can add flavor and/or provide some clues to enemies as to the source of the Echo's attacks. I personally like the image of the Knight standing unmoving, hands on the pommel of his sword planted in the ground before him – while his shadowy Echo zips around the battlefield doing his work for him. But this makes it harder for the enemies to realize the Knight is the true threat.
Allowing Echo Knights, which some already consider a powerful sub-class, to make ranged attacks with Unleash Incarnation would increase their power further. I'm sure you can imagine a Echo floating 15' above a battle and raining down arrows while the Knight is camouflaged. However I can't think of any game breaking issues with allowing your player to use Unleash Incarnate with a ranged weapon.
I would imagine the more important things to consider are: how does the character balance with the rest of the party, and will you need to adjust the challenge level of the encounters they are facing? It would obviously be fun for the player to be able to do it, but I personally would just make sure it doesn't overshadow any other players. You might also 'reserve the right' to re-assess your decision if it becomes unbalanced or abused.
Responding to the bold text in your first paragraph: How, exactly? The Echo can already work with ranged attacks normally and there isn't anything about ranged attacks that make them explicitly more powerful than melee attacks, at least from what I can tell. Also, what's to stop someone from doing the same hovering tactic with their Echo using melee? Just move them 15' in and out of range with no action required or OA risked.
The point made in your second paragraph does stand out to me as a possible reason for limiting UI to melee only. I don't really think the choice was made to "uphold the fluff" as has been brought up in the past few days. I feel like it's more likely that the rule is a balance issue. But what could that issue be? Mobility comes to mind. The EK is far and away the most mobile fighter there is (pun intended). Adding the crazy distance the EK can cover on top of the range of a longbow could make it very hard for an enemy to avoid their crosshairs. But that still doesn't really explain it since the Echo can still make ranged attacks normally. So I really don't know what it is about giving an "extra extra" attack to ranged fighters a few times per day that is prompting this specific ruling... unless... Crossbow Expert? This feat combines with UI to give a V. Human fighter with a crossbow a 4-attack nova all at 3rd level (Attack Action shot, UI shot, Crossbow Expert shot, Action Surge shot). Make that 5 shots at 5th level from Extra Attack. This would come online for all other races just one level later. Meahwhile, that V. Human just picked up Sharpshooter at 4th level, and do I need to spell out how much death this build will deal in later levels?
So, that's not play-tested but it's my best guess as to why UI has the melee-only restriction. I keep preaching how big of a deal the EK's nova via UI is and I kinda think this rule might be in place to put some brakes on that nova.
Allowing Echo Knights, which some already consider a powerful sub-class, to make ranged attacks with Unleash Incarnation would increase their power further. I'm sure you can imagine a Echo floating 15' above a battle and raining down arrows while the Knight is camouflaged. However I can't think of any game breaking issues with allowing your player to use Unleash Incarnate with a ranged weapon.
I would imagine the more important things to consider are: how does the character balance with the rest of the party, and will you need to adjust the challenge level of the encounters they are facing? It would obviously be fun for the player to be able to do it, but I personally would just make sure it doesn't overshadow any other players. You might also 'reserve the right' to re-assess your decision if it becomes unbalanced or abused.
Responding to the bold text in your first paragraph: How, exactly? The Echo can already work with ranged attacks normally and there isn't anything about ranged attacks that make them explicitly more powerful than melee attacks, at least from what I can tell. Also, what's to stop someone from doing the same hovering tactic with their Echo using melee? Just move them 15' in and out of range with no action required or OA risked.
The point made in your second paragraph does stand out to me as a possible reason for limiting UI to melee only. I don't really think the choice was made to "uphold the fluff" as has been brought up in the past few days. I feel like it's more likely that the rule is a balance issue. But what could that issue be? Mobility comes to mind. The EK is far and away the most mobile fighter there is (pun intended). Adding the crazy distance the EK can cover on top of the range of a longbow could make it very hard for an enemy to avoid their crosshairs. But that still doesn't really explain it since the Echo can still make ranged attacks normally. So I really don't know what it is about giving an "extra extra" attack to ranged fighters a few times per day that is prompting this specific ruling... unless... Crossbow Expert? This feat combines with UI to give a V. Human fighter with a crossbow a 4-attack nova all at 3rd level (Attack Action shot, UI shot, Crossbow Expert shot, Action Surge shot). Make that 5 shots at 5th level from Extra Attack. This would come online for all other races just one level later. Meahwhile, that V. Human just picked up Sharpshooter at 4th level, and do I need to spell out how much death this build will deal in later levels?
So, that's not play-tested but it's my best guess as to why UI has the melee-only restriction. I keep preaching how big of a deal the EK's nova via UI is and I kinda think this rule might be in place to put some brakes on that nova.
My Way of describing Unleash Incarnation is not that it's your attack kind of bleeding over into another version of you using your senses and everything by you just partly manifested through your semi-other self.
Unleash Avatar is the actual bleed through of an attack you never made from a different reality into the reality your actually playing in. And it really is an attack you never made. So there are limits of that attack actually bleeding over. Perhaps they have to be within proximity for it to actually deal damage to them because it is your power basically breaching into a different reality to an extent to make your incarnations and for that power to breach back and deal damage they need to be near the center of the effect. Any farther and even though the Incarnation attacks. It's energy to deal damage is spent by the time it reaches the target because your reality reasserts itself and cancels it out as anything more than an image at best.
As for purely a rules thing. It's possible they originally intended for the Echo knight to be melee only and then when things got switched that particular power got missed where the others didn't. We can't really say. But it does seem like by the flavor that perhaps the original idea was one that was more capable but it had limitations such as basically giving up ranged weapons to use them.
Unleash Avatar is the actual bleed through of an attack you never made from a different reality into the reality your actually playing in. And it really is an attack you never made. So there are limits of that attack actually bleeding over. Perhaps they have to be within proximity for it to actually deal damage to them because it is your power basically breaching into a different reality to an extent to make your incarnations and for that power to breach back and deal damage they need to be near the center of the effect. Any farther and even though the Incarnation attacks. It's energy to deal damage is spent by the time it reaches the target because your reality reasserts itself and cancels it out as anything more than an image at best.
I think this way to describe the Echo is probably much more in line with how the sub-class is themed – around leveraging other timelines. Which of course is quite cool, and I like it. For me, I guess this somewhat begs the question about magic items, ammo, and equipment? Does the echo have it's own ammo or magic arrows? Can the echo use and have different weapons out than the Knight? Sadly I don't think the rules line up totally with the description, but I understand the need for the rules and balance. Perhaps when an Echo version of yourself does something in another timeline, and it impacts the current reality, things like ammo have to be rationalized, and get moved from the Knight to the target so as not to cause duplicates. Or perhaps the DM just hand waves all that, and allow the Echo to truly be an independent duplicate. Shrug.
I think there are tons of ways to theme how Echo Knights work, which is one of the things I love about the subclass.
Unleash Avatar is the actual bleed through of an attack you never made from a different reality into the reality your actually playing in. And it really is an attack you never made. So there are limits of that attack actually bleeding over. Perhaps they have to be within proximity for it to actually deal damage to them because it is your power basically breaching into a different reality to an extent to make your incarnations and for that power to breach back and deal damage they need to be near the center of the effect. Any farther and even though the Incarnation attacks. It's energy to deal damage is spent by the time it reaches the target because your reality reasserts itself and cancels it out as anything more than an image at best.
I think this way to describe the Echo is probably much more in line with how the sub-class is themed – around leveraging other timelines. Which of course is quite cool, and I like it. For me, I guess this somewhat begs the question about magic items, ammo, and equipment? Does the echo have it's own ammo or magic arrows? Can the echo use and have different weapons out than the Knight? Sadly I don't think the rules line up totally with the description, but I understand the need for the rules and balance. Perhaps when an Echo version of yourself does something in another timeline, and it impacts the current reality, things like ammo have to be rationalized, and get moved from the Knight to the target so as not to cause duplicates. Or perhaps the DM just hand waves all that, and allow the Echo to truly be an independent duplicate. Shrug.
I think there are tons of ways to theme how Echo Knights work, which is one of the things I love about the subclass.
it may look like it has your items and stuff. But it doesn't. It's all you using your items and abilities through it. There is nothing mechanically or fluff wise about them that suggests they actually do wield the same exact weapons you do necessarily. it actually can't do a lot of what the PC can do or have all the same functioning abilities that the player has. Most of it is the player and them exercising their will upon the Echo. So when it's firing an arrow normally. It's you firing the arrow but your temporarily effectively making yourself partly in the place of the Echo. So it's never using it's ammunition even when the shot comes from it's location. it's you firing. It's you seeing the target with your senses from your position and things like that. It's your dark vision if that plays a part and not the Echo's.
So there is actually no conflict of internal logic of that other timeline bleeding through and not doing something that you yourself is doing. The point of that alternate you being in a different place is that your drawing on versions of you that have done something just a little bit different from you anyway. Since any normal attacks involving the Echo are not really from the Echo. They are from you, Manifested through the Echo through your force of will and manipulation of realities to tap into other selves. they use up your ammunition. Not the Echo's. They use up your action economy. Not the Echo's. The only thing that really can be said to come from the echo is the additional action that comes from Unleash Avatar. And the rules support that everything comes from you. Since it can only hit melee. Really it doesn't need internal logic about ammunition because technically if you were really taking that action as a melee you would not be using ammunition either.
It's the result of a space-time distortion, and a very localized one at that.
If you allow for ranged attacks, try to visualize that. Your fighter's arrow or bolt is, somehow, moving from their weapon to the echo's and being released there.
Thank you for the detailed explanation, however according to RAW when you make ANY attack it can originate from your echo's location, ranged included, so by RAW that space distortion works just as well with an arrow as your melee weapon.
That's kind of what I'm thinking tbh. I mean the wording in the book is very specific which makes me think that there was a good reason for this, I just can't figure it out and no matter where I look I can't find an explanation as to why, just people saying "that's what the book says". I mean overall this is the only part of the subclass that directly deals damage. What holds me back from just going forward with it is his character is already more powerful than the party average (his usually are, the way he puts characters together is like an art form, and he doesn't even multiclass!). No one in the party faults him for being overpowered and he normally holds back a bit in combat anyway.
It's the result of a space-time distortion, and a very localized one at that.
If you allow for ranged attacks, try to visualize that. Your fighter's arrow or bolt is, somehow, moving from their weapon to the echo's and being released there.
Thank you for the detailed explanation, however according to RAW when you make ANY attack it can originate from your echo's location, ranged included, so by RAW that space distortion works just as well with an arrow as your melee weapon.
Originating from their Location does not mean Originating from their Weapon... which is where people get caught up. They tend to think that because it comes from that spot that it has to come from the Echo specifically. Which by the way things are written. This isn't really true. This is just an assumption that people have made. But the way the books talk abuot it. Even thuogh it's coming from the Echo's location. It's not really coming from the Echo in most cases. It's coming from you using the Echo as a medium not entirely dis-similar to A spell cast but it comes from a familiar. The familiar is not casting the spell in any way. it's just being an origin point. it doesn't even use it's stats if an attack roll is required. The only difference is that it does require the familiars Reaction.
If the Echo is a manifestation of you from a different timeline, perhaps you are connected with it more than it is described in the class description? My notion is that you flicker back and forth extremely briefly so that you are oriented for attacks. But, you can't see through your Echo. Not until 7th level and you have to close your eyes..
Echo Knight has devils sight and casts darkness centered on him.
Summons Echo and moves them to melee range on a creature outside of the darkness.
Knight attacks through echo.
The enemy can't see knight so knight has advantage on attacks vs enemy.
Does Echo have advantage on enemy when attacking?
If the attack is originating from the echo, and the target can see the echo, then the rule for Unseen Attackers and Targets doesn't apply. I understand why RAW someone would think it does, but it doesn't. The attacker in this instance is an object (the echo).
Echo Knight has devils sight and casts darkness centered on him.
Summons Echo and moves them to melee range on a creature outside of the darkness.
Knight attacks through echo.
The enemy can't see knight so knight has advantage on attacks vs enemy.
Does Echo have advantage on enemy when attacking?
If the attack is originating from the echo, and the target can see the echo, then the rule for Unseen Attackers and Targets doesn't apply. I understand why RAW someone would think it does, but it doesn't. The attacker in this instance is an object (the echo).
Agreed. You are attacking from a visible location and object i.e. through your echo. So no advantage for being unseen. Not sure how the RAW would see it, since RAW can't anticipate every single instance or possibility. But Jounichi's assessment is logical imo.
Echo Knight has devils sight and casts darkness centered on him.
Summons Echo and moves them to melee range on a creature outside of the darkness.
Knight attacks through echo.
The enemy can't see knight so knight has advantage on attacks vs enemy.
Does Echo have advantage on enemy when attacking?
If the attack is originating from the echo, and the target can see the echo, then the rule for Unseen Attackers and Targets doesn't apply. I understand why RAW someone would think it does, but it doesn't. The attacker in this instance is an object (the echo).
Agreed. You are attacking from a visible location and object i.e. through your echo. So no advantage for being unseen. Not sure how the RAW would see it, since RAW can't anticipate every single instance or possibility. But Jounichi's assessment is logical imo.
RaW actually follows this assessment. Because remember. it doesn't make distinction about where your physical body is. Just where you are acting from. If it's your physical body like most people then it's just normal. if it's through an ability that let's you functionally use another place as if you were there. Then it is by the details of that place. Whether it's a spell through a familiar, the Scribes ghost thingie, or the Echo Knights echo-self so to speak.
This is also why such abilities also don't necessarily suffer from disadvantage because of the position of your body unless they specifically state that they do.
Echo Knight has devils sight and casts darkness centered on him.
Summons Echo and moves them to melee range on a creature outside of the darkness.
Knight attacks through echo.
The enemy can't see knight so knight has advantage on attacks vs enemy.
Does Echo have advantage on enemy when attacking?
If the attack is originating from the echo, and the target can see the echo, then the rule for Unseen Attackers and Targets doesn't apply. I understand why RAW someone would think it does, but it doesn't. The attacker in this instance is an object (the echo).
Agreed. You are attacking from a visible location and object i.e. through your echo. So no advantage for being unseen. Not sure how the RAW would see it, since RAW can't anticipate every single instance or possibility. But Jounichi's assessment is logical imo.
RaW actually follows this assessment. Because remember. it doesn't make distinction about where your physical body is. Just where you are acting from. If it's your physical body like most people then it's just normal. if it's through an ability that let's you functionally use another place as if you were there. Then it is by the details of that place. Whether it's a spell through a familiar, the Scribes ghost thingie, or the Echo Knights echo-self so to speak.
This is also why such abilities also don't necessarily suffer from disadvantage because of the position of your body unless they specifically state that they do.
Manifest Echo with respect to attacking from the echo's space.
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
The key word imo is "originate." If the attack is originating in the echo's space, which is not covered in darkness, then there is no advantage for being unseen. Your foe can see the echo and your attack originating from the echo's space. You are in darkness. Your echo is not and it's your echo's space where the attack action is originating.
How would it interact with Shadow of Moil, or (Greater) Invisibility?
Next time, could you please be more specific with your question? As is, it necessitates a rather long-winded response.
The spell shadow of moil targets the spellcaster, so its primary effect isn't duplicatable or transferable to the echo. And the echo isn't a creature, so if it is used to attack someone then it can't be targeted by the retaliatory 2d8 necrotic damage. Nor can the echo be a target of greater invisibility because, again, it's not a creature.
The issue is who is considered to be an "attacker" in this instance: the fighter or their echo? The fighter is the one declaring and attempting the attack rolls, but the attacks in question originate from the space occupied by the echo. The game rules don't clearly define who is and isn't an attacker. Presumably this is a creature, but not necessarily. The rule for Unseen Attackers and Targets is found in the Player's Handbook. But so is the Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity from the Trickery Domain, which means this question has been around since the launch of the edition.
Ultimately, who or what is and isn't an "attacker" is left up to the DM to decide. But general consensus appears to be that its wherever the attack originates from; be that a creature or object. Following that train of thought to its logical conclusion, the incoming attack is visible so long as the point of origin is also visible.
How would it interact with Shadow of Moil, or (Greater) Invisibility?
Which is a great question. This causes me to question my original answer. Because if you don't give the attacks advantage for being in darkness, then you wouldn't for being invisible either, since they follow the same rule. It would be negating an invisibility spell cast on a player, to NOT give advantage on the attacks.
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Yah, I agree, it is a bit weird to imagine. Basically ammo or ranged weapons disappear from the Knight and appear thrown from the Echo. I like another description I read regarding the Echo Knight which described the Echo merely as a portal through which the Knight could attack. In many ways, this description aligns well with the actual rules, even if visualizing it is harder. Though it can certainly be flavored however the player would like.
For a Echo to attack with a sword, must the Knight also swing his sword, or can he just stand there without moving? Presumably and Echo must appear to be holding the same weapon as the Knight, but what happens if a Knight switches weapons, does the Echo also? If an Echo makes a ranged bow attack for example, does the arrow simply disappear from the Knight's quiver, or must the Knight first nock it on their bow and draw back?
The rules don't necessarily cover all these questions, and they are good ones to discuss with your DM. The answers to them can add flavor and/or provide some clues to enemies as to the source of the Echo's attacks. I personally like the image of the Knight standing unmoving, hands on the pommel of his sword planted in the ground before him – while his shadowy Echo zips around the battlefield doing his work for him. But this makes it harder for the enemies to realize the Knight is the true threat.
Responding to the bold text in your first paragraph: How, exactly? The Echo can already work with ranged attacks normally and there isn't anything about ranged attacks that make them explicitly more powerful than melee attacks, at least from what I can tell. Also, what's to stop someone from doing the same hovering tactic with their Echo using melee? Just move them 15' in and out of range with no action required or OA risked.
The point made in your second paragraph does stand out to me as a possible reason for limiting UI to melee only. I don't really think the choice was made to "uphold the fluff" as has been brought up in the past few days. I feel like it's more likely that the rule is a balance issue. But what could that issue be? Mobility comes to mind. The EK is far and away the most mobile fighter there is (pun intended). Adding the crazy distance the EK can cover on top of the range of a longbow could make it very hard for an enemy to avoid their crosshairs. But that still doesn't really explain it since the Echo can still make ranged attacks normally. So I really don't know what it is about giving an "extra extra" attack to ranged fighters a few times per day that is prompting this specific ruling... unless... Crossbow Expert? This feat combines with UI to give a V. Human fighter with a crossbow a 4-attack nova all at 3rd level (Attack Action shot, UI shot, Crossbow Expert shot, Action Surge shot). Make that 5 shots at 5th level from Extra Attack. This would come online for all other races just one level later. Meahwhile, that V. Human just picked up Sharpshooter at 4th level, and do I need to spell out how much death this build will deal in later levels?
So, that's not play-tested but it's my best guess as to why UI has the melee-only restriction. I keep preaching how big of a deal the EK's nova via UI is and I kinda think this rule might be in place to put some brakes on that nova.
My Way of describing Unleash Incarnation is not that it's your attack kind of bleeding over into another version of you using your senses and everything by you just partly manifested through your semi-other self.
Unleash Avatar is the actual bleed through of an attack you never made from a different reality into the reality your actually playing in. And it really is an attack you never made. So there are limits of that attack actually bleeding over. Perhaps they have to be within proximity for it to actually deal damage to them because it is your power basically breaching into a different reality to an extent to make your incarnations and for that power to breach back and deal damage they need to be near the center of the effect. Any farther and even though the Incarnation attacks. It's energy to deal damage is spent by the time it reaches the target because your reality reasserts itself and cancels it out as anything more than an image at best.
As for purely a rules thing. It's possible they originally intended for the Echo knight to be melee only and then when things got switched that particular power got missed where the others didn't. We can't really say. But it does seem like by the flavor that perhaps the original idea was one that was more capable but it had limitations such as basically giving up ranged weapons to use them.
I think this way to describe the Echo is probably much more in line with how the sub-class is themed – around leveraging other timelines. Which of course is quite cool, and I like it. For me, I guess this somewhat begs the question about magic items, ammo, and equipment? Does the echo have it's own ammo or magic arrows? Can the echo use and have different weapons out than the Knight? Sadly I don't think the rules line up totally with the description, but I understand the need for the rules and balance. Perhaps when an Echo version of yourself does something in another timeline, and it impacts the current reality, things like ammo have to be rationalized, and get moved from the Knight to the target so as not to cause duplicates. Or perhaps the DM just hand waves all that, and allow the Echo to truly be an independent duplicate. Shrug.
I think there are tons of ways to theme how Echo Knights work, which is one of the things I love about the subclass.
it may look like it has your items and stuff. But it doesn't. It's all you using your items and abilities through it. There is nothing mechanically or fluff wise about them that suggests they actually do wield the same exact weapons you do necessarily. it actually can't do a lot of what the PC can do or have all the same functioning abilities that the player has. Most of it is the player and them exercising their will upon the Echo. So when it's firing an arrow normally. It's you firing the arrow but your temporarily effectively making yourself partly in the place of the Echo. So it's never using it's ammunition even when the shot comes from it's location. it's you firing. It's you seeing the target with your senses from your position and things like that. It's your dark vision if that plays a part and not the Echo's.
So there is actually no conflict of internal logic of that other timeline bleeding through and not doing something that you yourself is doing. The point of that alternate you being in a different place is that your drawing on versions of you that have done something just a little bit different from you anyway. Since any normal attacks involving the Echo are not really from the Echo. They are from you, Manifested through the Echo through your force of will and manipulation of realities to tap into other selves. they use up your ammunition. Not the Echo's. They use up your action economy. Not the Echo's. The only thing that really can be said to come from the echo is the additional action that comes from Unleash Avatar. And the rules support that everything comes from you. Since it can only hit melee. Really it doesn't need internal logic about ammunition because technically if you were really taking that action as a melee you would not be using ammunition either.
Thank you for the detailed explanation, however according to RAW when you make ANY attack it can originate from your echo's location, ranged included, so by RAW that space distortion works just as well with an arrow as your melee weapon.
That's kind of what I'm thinking tbh. I mean the wording in the book is very specific which makes me think that there was a good reason for this, I just can't figure it out and no matter where I look I can't find an explanation as to why, just people saying "that's what the book says". I mean overall this is the only part of the subclass that directly deals damage. What holds me back from just going forward with it is his character is already more powerful than the party average (his usually are, the way he puts characters together is like an art form, and he doesn't even multiclass!). No one in the party faults him for being overpowered and he normally holds back a bit in combat anyway.
Originating from their Location does not mean Originating from their Weapon... which is where people get caught up. They tend to think that because it comes from that spot that it has to come from the Echo specifically. Which by the way things are written. This isn't really true. This is just an assumption that people have made. But the way the books talk abuot it. Even thuogh it's coming from the Echo's location. It's not really coming from the Echo in most cases. It's coming from you using the Echo as a medium not entirely dis-similar to A spell cast but it comes from a familiar. The familiar is not casting the spell in any way. it's just being an origin point. it doesn't even use it's stats if an attack roll is required. The only difference is that it does require the familiars Reaction.
If the Echo is a manifestation of you from a different timeline, perhaps you are connected with it more than it is described in the class description? My notion is that you flicker back and forth extremely briefly so that you are oriented for attacks. But, you can't see through your Echo. Not until 7th level and you have to close your eyes..
Q: When a weapon is coated in a poison / oil, does it apply through the echos attack?
Yes, because it is using that weapon to make the attack
Hypothetical scenario.
Echo Knight has devils sight and casts darkness centered on him.
Summons Echo and moves them to melee range on a creature outside of the darkness.
Knight attacks through echo.
The enemy can't see knight so knight has advantage on attacks vs enemy.
Does Echo have advantage on enemy when attacking?
If the attack is originating from the echo, and the target can see the echo, then the rule for Unseen Attackers and Targets doesn't apply. I understand why RAW someone would think it does, but it doesn't. The attacker in this instance is an object (the echo).
Agreed. You are attacking from a visible location and object i.e. through your echo. So no advantage for being unseen. Not sure how the RAW would see it, since RAW can't anticipate every single instance or possibility. But Jounichi's assessment is logical imo.
RaW actually follows this assessment. Because remember. it doesn't make distinction about where your physical body is. Just where you are acting from. If it's your physical body like most people then it's just normal. if it's through an ability that let's you functionally use another place as if you were there. Then it is by the details of that place. Whether it's a spell through a familiar, the Scribes ghost thingie, or the Echo Knights echo-self so to speak.
This is also why such abilities also don't necessarily suffer from disadvantage because of the position of your body unless they specifically state that they do.
Thanks guys, so many nuances that I just wanted my bases covered. Thanks for the helpful answers!!
Manifest Echo with respect to attacking from the echo's space.
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
The key word imo is "originate." If the attack is originating in the echo's space, which is not covered in darkness, then there is no advantage for being unseen. Your foe can see the echo and your attack originating from the echo's space. You are in darkness. Your echo is not and it's your echo's space where the attack action is originating.
How would it interact with Shadow of Moil, or (Greater) Invisibility?
Next time, could you please be more specific with your question? As is, it necessitates a rather long-winded response.
The spell shadow of moil targets the spellcaster, so its primary effect isn't duplicatable or transferable to the echo. And the echo isn't a creature, so if it is used to attack someone then it can't be targeted by the retaliatory 2d8 necrotic damage. Nor can the echo be a target of greater invisibility because, again, it's not a creature.
The issue is who is considered to be an "attacker" in this instance: the fighter or their echo? The fighter is the one declaring and attempting the attack rolls, but the attacks in question originate from the space occupied by the echo. The game rules don't clearly define who is and isn't an attacker. Presumably this is a creature, but not necessarily. The rule for Unseen Attackers and Targets is found in the Player's Handbook. But so is the Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity from the Trickery Domain, which means this question has been around since the launch of the edition.
Ultimately, who or what is and isn't an "attacker" is left up to the DM to decide. But general consensus appears to be that its wherever the attack originates from; be that a creature or object. Following that train of thought to its logical conclusion, the incoming attack is visible so long as the point of origin is also visible.
Which is a great question. This causes me to question my original answer. Because if you don't give the attacks advantage for being in darkness, then you wouldn't for being invisible either, since they follow the same rule. It would be negating an invisibility spell cast on a player, to NOT give advantage on the attacks.