Thanks for the response. As for the first part though, I was more curious like if you can move the echo it's self with you can move up to 30ft in any direction no action required during your turn, if levitate were casted on the echo it's self.
Still new to posting so messed up a little original question
Questions:
Can you still move your echo knight if the levitate spell was cast on it?
Since you can end echo avatar at anytime with no action required, are you able to end it and then use the echo teleport?
Responce by Vii007
Quote by Vii007
Levitate wouldn’t prevent you from using your bonus action, so yeah you’d be able to teleport. Whether or not you’re still floating is up for debate.
Edit: For the second question, I’d say no, since you’d have to use a bonus action to resummon the echo first.
Not sure if this will work but the top question is what I like to still know if possible.
Hope this still counts for people helping me out and for Vii007 getting credit.
As far as "Can you still move your echo knight if the levitate spell was cast on it?" I'd go with a tentative no, based on the following rule interactions.
Levitate:
..One creature or object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically, up to 20 feet, and remains suspended there for the duration... ...The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing...
Then for the Echo Knight:
...On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required)....
Levitate states that the ONLY way for the target to move is by dragging itself along fixed objects or surfaces. Which means that all other means of movement (in this case, moving in response to a command issued by the Knight) are forbidden. The echo cannot drag itself along things or climb, which means it has no way of moving.
The fact that the Echo Knight feature has the knight commanding the object to move rather than just moving it seems to reinforce that. It isn't worded like Spiritual Weapon, but instead like Unseen Servant. The echo itself is doing the moving, which means it is bound by the rules of Levitate. If you were applying forced movement like a push, you might be able to argue otherwise.
I think a DM is well within reason to rule the other way, but this way seems to be the most RAW interpretation.
Though the easy fix if the Knight’s Echo gets levitated is to simply dismiss it and then reform it. Rendering the levitate effect useless as a means of disabling the ability. Still...I could see why someone would try this as a moment buff, but I’d have to agree with @Aethelwolf above. Levitate is pretty clear as to how the levitated object or creature can move.
Correct. A flying creature that is affected by levitate cannot use its fly speed to move. It must drag itself along fixed surfaces like any other creature.
I know we're deviating from Echo Knight but this makes no sense to me at all. A creature with wings is already able to levitate, and doesn't need fixed surfaces to move in the first place. The fixed surface they are dragging themselves along is air. They are moving air and the equal and opposite reaction is that they move in space in the other direction. Levitate should have 0 effect on this, and if a DM told me that levitate took flying speed to 0 I would look at him like he/she were crazy.
If you assume that the way the spell works is by simply creating an upwards force that opposes gravity, then yes - it makes no sense that flying creatures cannot still fly. But that assumption is incorrect because it ignores the rules of the spell. The spell has the following functions:
It can lift a target that weighs less than 500 lbs.
It prevents the target from moving unless they drag themselves along a fixed object or surface.
It allows the caster to change the altitude of the target.
Which means that the magic is doing more than just creating an anti-gravity force. Perhaps it is reactively applying an opposing force whenever a creature would move, which prevents the creature from falling, flying, or even swimming. Perhaps it creates an invisible tether that anchors the creature to that point in space. Maybe by grabbing onto a fixed object and dragging yourself, you 'ground' yourself, which reduces the effectiveness of the magic just enough for you to drag yourself. You can come up with all sorts of mechanical explanations for the spell, but whatever you choose should fully account for the spell's actual written function.
Just to try to tie this back to the topic at hand: This approach can help answer many questions that come up with regards to what an echo can and cannot do. If you ever aren't sure, drop any in-universe assumptions about how the echo functions and just look at the rules text. If the rules say the echo can do something, it can do it. If it doesn't, it can't. If the answer conflicts with any assumptions you originally had, then its time to rebuild your assumptions with the new rule in mind.
If your echo moves somewhere you cant see are you able to communicate with it?
You can't communicate with it at all, it isn't a creature.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
You never need to be able to see your echo itself to use any of the features associated with it.
Some features, such as triggering an opportunity attack through your echo or using Shadow Martyr, do require you to see other creatures, but not the echo itself.
"Per Jeremy Crawford, "The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it."
So, I have a question about this interaction. Obviously, the knight can't fly, so after bamfing would start to drop. Insert Air Genasi Levitate. So now you can hang in the air, but not move parallel to the ground. Assuming this is not in combat, so nothing to interrupt. I can't figure out the math; numbers make my brain stop. Here's my thought: summon echo 15ft away, 6 seconds later move it 30ft and bamf, 6 second later, summon echo 15ft, rince/repeat for 1 minute. How far could an air genasi echo knight "fly" in this time?
"Per Jeremy Crawford, "The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it."
So, I have a question about this interaction. Obviously, the knight can't fly, so after bamfing would start to drop. Insert Air Genasi Levitate. So now you can hang in the air, but not move parallel to the ground. Assuming this is not in combat, so nothing to interrupt. I can't figure out the math; numbers make my brain stop. Here's my thought: summon echo 15ft away, 6 seconds later move it 30ft and bamf, 6 second later, summon echo 15ft, rince/repeat for 1 minute. How far could an air genasi echo knight "fly" in this time?
There's an easier way to fly with the echo. Just grab onto it and command it to move you and itself vertically 30 feet once on each of your turns. Permanent flying, as long as your Echo doesn't take any damage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
"Per Jeremy Crawford, "The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it."
So, I have a question about this interaction. Obviously, the knight can't fly, so after bamfing would start to drop. Insert Air Genasi Levitate. So now you can hang in the air, but not move parallel to the ground. Assuming this is not in combat, so nothing to interrupt. I can't figure out the math; numbers make my brain stop. Here's my thought: summon echo 15ft away, 6 seconds later move it 30ft and bamf, 6 second later, summon echo 15ft, rince/repeat for 1 minute. How far could an air genasi echo knight "fly" in this time?
There's an easier way to fly with the echo. Just grab onto it and command it to move you and itself vertically 30 feet once on each of your turns. Permanent flying, as long as your Echo doesn't take any damage.
I'll be operating under the assumption that the echo is incapable of carrying anything/anyone, as it's inconceivable that it's RAI for a freemoving echo to be able to carry things. Free flight at the cost of zero action and zero movement....nah.
"Per Jeremy Crawford, "The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it."
So, I have a question about this interaction. Obviously, the knight can't fly, so after bamfing would start to drop. Insert Air Genasi Levitate. So now you can hang in the air, but not move parallel to the ground. Assuming this is not in combat, so nothing to interrupt. I can't figure out the math; numbers make my brain stop. Here's my thought: summon echo 15ft away, 6 seconds later move it 30ft and bamf, 6 second later, summon echo 15ft, rince/repeat for 1 minute. How far could an air genasi echo knight "fly" in this time?
There's an easier way to fly with the echo. Just grab onto it and command it to move you and itself vertically 30 feet once on each of your turns. Permanent flying, as long as your Echo doesn't take any damage.
I'll be operating under the assumption that the echo is incapable of carrying anything/anyone, as it's inconceivable that it's RAI for a freemoving echo to be able to carry things. Free flight at the cost of zero action and zero movement....nah.
It's obviously not RAI, and no sane DM would allow this to work, but there's nothing written in the subclass that would prevent this from happening.
It takes a bonus action to summon the Echo, and teleporting to the Echo's location is also a bonus action. Therefore, you cannot summon the Echo and teleport in the same round. I guess you could manifest the Echo ahead of time, have it 30' from you. Then in the "1st" rd, levitate, move the Echo 30' further (60' total), then teleport (Echo disappears, as it is >30' from the Knight at the end of the round). Rd 2, manifest Echo, move it to 30 from you. Rd 3, move Echo 30' more (60') total, Teleport. Repeat Rds 2 and 3, and at end of 5th rd you have moved 180'.
I don't believe the Echo can carry the Knight. RAW the Echo is capable of moving as commanded. That's it. Everything else is the Knight acting through the Echo.
I'm not necessarily convinced that a grappled EK would be able to teleport away given the feature as written. I'm not saying you couldn't rule it that way, but the cost of things like this is usually paid up front. If I cast a spell, the spell slot is paid up front regardless of whether the spell fizzles or someone counter spells me. In order to enforce the parallelism within the rules, I think you would have to adjudicate this in a similar way. The EK would have to escape the grapple first and then switch places with their echo. The fact that the feature expressly states that you expend 15 ft of movement in order to teleport means you can't escape the grapple via teleportation since your movement speed is 0 while you are grappled.
This is akin to a spell caster wanting to cast a spell, but not having any spell slots left. Or a monk wanting to flurry of blows, but not having ki left. The resource is either zeroed out due to a condition or has been depleted entirely.
That being said, this does bring up a good recommendation for a magic item for the EK which is the Ring of Free Action to prevent being restrained. Also the Oil of Slipperiness could come in handy.
I would suggest you have a look at the freedom of movement spell. This spell allows you to spend 5ft of movement to escape from a grapple or non-magical restraints. How can they spend movement they don’t have if they are grappled? If you search sage advice (can’t seem to post a link), you can see that Crawford has said that freedom of movement overrides grapple because of specific vs general.
However, I think you are right that RAI, you shouldn’t be able to teleport if grappled. Transport via plants is similar in being a teleport spell that requires movement and I think that given it requires you to step into tree, you wouldn’t be able to do that if you were grappled. I look forward to sage advice or a reprint on this.
It takes a bonus action to summon the Echo, and teleporting to the Echo's location is also a bonus action. Therefore, you cannot summon the Echo and teleport in the same round. I guess you could manifest the Echo ahead of time, have it 30' from you. Then in the "1st" rd, levitate, move the Echo 30' further (60' total), then teleport (Echo disappears, as it is >30' from the Knight at the end of the round). Rd 2, manifest Echo, move it to 30 from you. Rd 3, move Echo 30' more (60') total, Teleport. Repeat Rds 2 and 3, and at end of 5th rd you have moved 180'.
I don't believe the Echo can carry the Knight. RAW the Echo is capable of moving as commanded. That's it. Everything else is the Knight acting through the Echo.
Haha but what if you grapple yourself and fly away?
Cool, thank you very much!
Thanks for the response. As for the first part though, I was more curious like if you can move the echo it's self with you can move up to 30ft in any direction no action required during your turn, if levitate were casted on the echo it's self.
Still new to posting so messed up a little original question
Responce by Vii007
Not sure if this will work but the top question is what I like to still know if possible.
Hope this still counts for people helping me out and for Vii007 getting credit.
As far as "Can you still move your echo knight if the levitate spell was cast on it?" I'd go with a tentative no, based on the following rule interactions.
Levitate states that the ONLY way for the target to move is by dragging itself along fixed objects or surfaces. Which means that all other means of movement (in this case, moving in response to a command issued by the Knight) are forbidden. The echo cannot drag itself along things or climb, which means it has no way of moving.
The fact that the Echo Knight feature has the knight commanding the object to move rather than just moving it seems to reinforce that. It isn't worded like Spiritual Weapon, but instead like Unseen Servant. The echo itself is doing the moving, which means it is bound by the rules of Levitate. If you were applying forced movement like a push, you might be able to argue otherwise.
I think a DM is well within reason to rule the other way, but this way seems to be the most RAW interpretation.
Though the easy fix if the Knight’s Echo gets levitated is to simply dismiss it and then reform it. Rendering the levitate effect useless as a means of disabling the ability. Still...I could see why someone would try this as a moment buff, but I’d have to agree with @Aethelwolf above. Levitate is pretty clear as to how the levitated object or creature can move.
So would a creature with a fly speed be rendered immobile by a levitate spell??
Correct. A flying creature that is affected by levitate cannot use its fly speed to move. It must drag itself along fixed surfaces like any other creature.
I know we're deviating from Echo Knight but this makes no sense to me at all. A creature with wings is already able to levitate, and doesn't need fixed surfaces to move in the first place. The fixed surface they are dragging themselves along is air. They are moving air and the equal and opposite reaction is that they move in space in the other direction. Levitate should have 0 effect on this, and if a DM told me that levitate took flying speed to 0 I would look at him like he/she were crazy.
If you assume that the way the spell works is by simply creating an upwards force that opposes gravity, then yes - it makes no sense that flying creatures cannot still fly. But that assumption is incorrect because it ignores the rules of the spell. The spell has the following functions:
Which means that the magic is doing more than just creating an anti-gravity force. Perhaps it is reactively applying an opposing force whenever a creature would move, which prevents the creature from falling, flying, or even swimming. Perhaps it creates an invisible tether that anchors the creature to that point in space. Maybe by grabbing onto a fixed object and dragging yourself, you 'ground' yourself, which reduces the effectiveness of the magic just enough for you to drag yourself. You can come up with all sorts of mechanical explanations for the spell, but whatever you choose should fully account for the spell's actual written function.
Just to try to tie this back to the topic at hand: This approach can help answer many questions that come up with regards to what an echo can and cannot do. If you ever aren't sure, drop any in-universe assumptions about how the echo functions and just look at the rules text. If the rules say the echo can do something, it can do it. If it doesn't, it can't. If the answer conflicts with any assumptions you originally had, then its time to rebuild your assumptions with the new rule in mind.
If your echo moves somewhere you cant see are you able to communicate with it?
You can't communicate with it at all, it isn't a creature.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
You never need to be able to see your echo itself to use any of the features associated with it.
Some features, such as triggering an opportunity attack through your echo or using Shadow Martyr, do require you to see other creatures, but not the echo itself.
"Per Jeremy Crawford, "The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it."
So, I have a question about this interaction. Obviously, the knight can't fly, so after bamfing would start to drop. Insert Air Genasi Levitate. So now you can hang in the air, but not move parallel to the ground. Assuming this is not in combat, so nothing to interrupt. I can't figure out the math; numbers make my brain stop. Here's my thought: summon echo 15ft away, 6 seconds later move it 30ft and bamf, 6 second later, summon echo 15ft, rince/repeat for 1 minute. How far could an air genasi echo knight "fly" in this time?
There's an easier way to fly with the echo. Just grab onto it and command it to move you and itself vertically 30 feet once on each of your turns. Permanent flying, as long as your Echo doesn't take any damage.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'll be operating under the assumption that the echo is incapable of carrying anything/anyone, as it's inconceivable that it's RAI for a freemoving echo to be able to carry things. Free flight at the cost of zero action and zero movement....nah.
It's obviously not RAI, and no sane DM would allow this to work, but there's nothing written in the subclass that would prevent this from happening.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It takes a bonus action to summon the Echo, and teleporting to the Echo's location is also a bonus action. Therefore, you cannot summon the Echo and teleport in the same round. I guess you could manifest the Echo ahead of time, have it 30' from you. Then in the "1st" rd, levitate, move the Echo 30' further (60' total), then teleport (Echo disappears, as it is >30' from the Knight at the end of the round). Rd 2, manifest Echo, move it to 30 from you. Rd 3, move Echo 30' more (60') total, Teleport. Repeat Rds 2 and 3, and at end of 5th rd you have moved 180'.
I don't believe the Echo can carry the Knight. RAW the Echo is capable of moving as commanded. That's it. Everything else is the Knight acting through the Echo.
I would suggest you have a look at the freedom of movement spell. This spell allows you to spend 5ft of movement to escape from a grapple or non-magical restraints. How can they spend movement they don’t have if they are grappled? If you search sage advice (can’t seem to post a link), you can see that Crawford has said that freedom of movement overrides grapple because of specific vs general.
However, I think you are right that RAI, you shouldn’t be able to teleport if grappled. Transport via plants is similar in being a teleport spell that requires movement and I think that given it requires you to step into tree, you wouldn’t be able to do that if you were grappled. I look forward to sage advice or a reprint on this.
Haha but what if you grapple yourself and fly away?
Add boots of speed, potion of speed and haste spell.