Thanks Devolnu. Just wanted to make a small contribution. I wanted to try playing an Echo Knight one day, and wanted to make sure I understood how it worked. But I'll save my own character concepts for another time.
No, you don't duplicate your objects, the echo doesn't have anything while summoned. It wouldn't have a torch, and that non-existent torch wouldn't give off light.
Yes. You can avoid opportunity attacks by teleporting. This is true for any source of teleportation, from misty step to eladrin's step.
Unclear. I'd say no, because that would allow you to essentially use the echo as a jetpack. Just hold onto the echo or vice versa, and then fly up 30 feet every round. It never moves further away from you, which then would let you fly permanently with no spells expended, and other such exploits. This is broken, and should not be allowed IMHO.
You cannot grapple objects. Grappling specifies that it must target a creature. Echoes are objects. Therefore, you cannot grapple an echo.
(Can't everyone move while grappling?) I guess if the echo can, you could grapple a creature, make it hover 30 feet up in the air, and then drop the creature to do falling damage.
You can probably tie a rope around an echo. Again, this would allow for some strange exploits, like the jetpack idea I listed above.
Echoes cannot wield shields. It is unclear what is the extent to things they can interact with. They wouldn't get an AC bonus, because an object gets no bonus from a shield. A boulder can't increase its armor class by laying a shield on it. Echoes can't use shields.
You can't ready a bonus action. No one can. Not Echo Knights, not anyone.
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Thanks so much LeviRocks for all the answers to my gap in knowledge. I updated almost all the questions. There is one answer which I wanted to discuss further...
1. Yes, but only if the traps can be triggered by things not considered creatures. They are functionally weightless, but can move, so you could cause them to trigger pressure plates and tripwires by simply moving them towards the location of those objects.
I understand that an Echo takes up a physical space. If the Echo is weighless and floats, I can't imagine it setting off any traps that require weight or gravity. So no pressure plates, no pit traps, etc. – unless of course the Knight already knows it is there. Though it might set off a tripwire or spell effect that can be triggered by objects. Thoughts?
The rules aren't clear on this. Just because it has no mass, or isn't effected by gravity doesn't mean that it has no substance. It definitely does have substance, which is why it can be damaged. I would say that it can trigger pressure plates and tripwires, but if and only if you specify that you are going to press it down against the ground or moving it across a space that you think it would be in.
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Many thanks GodlessCleric for the additional questions. I've added them to the FAQ (with a few wording changes) and have marked them as (New). I tried my best to answer them with LeviRocks help.
You have a truly devious or optimized mind for trying to get the maximum benefit out of the rules. Though my guess is that most of the exploits below are not RAI. Still, they are clever and of course up to your DM to finally arbitrate.
The rules aren't clear on this. Just because it has no mass, or isn't effected by gravity doesn't mean that it has no substance. It definitely does have substance, which is why it can be damaged. I would say that it can trigger pressure plates and tripwires, but if and only if you specify that you are going to press it down against the ground or moving it across a space that you think it would be in.
This is reasonable and I've updated the question and answer.
Q: Can you make a ranged attack (for example with a bow) from the Echo’s space? A: Yes, an attack action includes any attack using a ranged weapon as well.
Actually you may want to clarify this as it is partially true. You can with the normal attack action but not with the Unleash Incarnation feature.
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Q: Can you make a ranged attack (for example with a bow) from the Echo’s space? A: Yes, an attack action includes any attack using a ranged weapon as well.
Actually you may want to clarify this as it is partially true. You can with the normal attack action but not with the Unleash Incarnation feature.
Thanks for pointing this out. I've made the clarification in the FAQ.
Q: Can you make a ranged attack (for example with a bow) from the Echo’s space? A: Yes, an attack action includes any attack using a ranged weapon as well.
Actually you may want to clarify this as it is partially true. You can with the normal attack action but not with the Unleash Incarnation feature.
Thanks for pointing this out. I've made the clarification in the FAQ.
I've collected the following additional questions, and wanted to get people's thoughts on how to rule them. Thoughts are also welcome on if these questions should be included at all or combined with other questions.
Does an Echo need to breath? Presumably if it is just an image, no.
Can an Echo Avatar open doors or go through them? Presumably no, it can't take any other actions and occupies a physical space.
Can it be given temporary hitpoints or have it's max hp increased? Presumably only if those benefits extend to objects since it is not a creature.
Can it use class features of the parent class, for instance could it use Rogueish evasion to save against an AOE spell? Presumably no because it can't take reactions or other actions.
When it's hit with an attack, can it use Armor of Hexes for a full save. What about using an abjurers ward to keep it alive. ???
Could I have the echo throw nets without me picking them up? Alchemist fire? Presumably yes, but it the ranged weapon/item must exist on the Knight and it works as normal, except that the attack originates from the Echo's location.
Will shield of faith work on it? I believe Shield of Faith can only target creatures?
Being shoved is not a condition, just prone, what if someone wants to shove it backwards?
Presumabley nothing happens. Shoving: "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee Attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you." Since the echo isn't a creature, it can't be targeted with a shove.
By extension, can an Echo be involuntarily moved, pushed, or pulled? What affects should do this? Presumably only affects that can target and object can move it? Telekensis? What else could move it? Does it otherwise act as an immovable rod? What if it is in front of a door to block it? how much force can it stop?
Can it move underwater? Does it displace water? Presumably yes. It doesn't have a movement speed and can move through water. It also occupies a physical space, so it presumably displaces water? What about traveling through lave? I assume it would take damage and disappear. What can or can't it travel throught?
When it moves, is it silent? Presumably yes since it is just a floating image. Would this impact its ability to 'stealth' or be detected? It's a "magical, translucent, gray image of you," so yes. It doesn't actually exist, it's like a mirror image or any number of illusion spells.
What spells or features does an Echo and/or Echo Avatar most act like from a rules perspective (or otherwise)? For example, it is mostly like a Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity except it takes a space, is it like more like a spiritual weapon or an animate object in how it attacks? Is the Avatar most similar to an Arcane Eye, or some other spell – or perhaps more like a familiar?
What mashup of spells or effects do you think be describe an Echo or Avatar? I'm asking to try to help give people a reference point.
Illusion or Object
An Echo has been referred to as just an image or illusion, but it has also be called an object. Which do you think it is more of, or can it be both? How would you describe an Echo to someone?
Presumably an Echo looks like, moves, and acts like the Knight. Which I think is what is causing people so much confusion about how to treat it. Is it intelligent?
Framework
In short, I'm wonder about the best framework to most accurately describe an Echo to help with the many rules questions. For example, is it just a portal for attacks? Does its appearance even matter?
My best house rule or house interpretation is taking the Echo Knight description as if to say "the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo for melee attacks and reactions".
No out-of-combat interactions, no carrying space, no skill checks or remote actions to deactivate traps. Echo is a shadow that can only help us in combat, with the only exception of teleporting or scouting at level 7. And there are no ranged attacks.
The attacks then originate from Knight, and could hit Knight's range (5 or 10 with weapons with range) plus the eight squares around the echo; no, the range of weapons adds nothing to the range of the echo.
- Flanking? The echo don´t give flank bonus, but still can be beneficiated from others allies, because is the reach of the Knight who is taking the flanking bonus.
- Reckless attack? The attack originates from the Knight, so is the Knight who offers advantage to every attacks done to him, no the echo.
- Grappling or shoving? Ok. Moving after grappling? I would only allow the echo free move on the x-y axes; rising through z axis would load the weight of the creature caught in the Knight, maybe causing him to be encumbered, depending the size of the grappled creature.
- Sight? If the additional reach provided by the echo has different sight conditions than the Knight normal reach, the attacks in the echos reach will have their own modifications. If the echo is in darkness and the fighter no, the attacks from echo has disadvantage and ones form the Knight no. (exactly as would happen with attacks if part of a traditional warrior's range was in the dark and part was not)
- Line of sight? If you can see from your range, you can attack. Yes, an echo can hit an enemy that can "see" but the fighter cannot.
Without an official FAQ, I think all the questions around sentinel feat, reach weapons, reactions, warcaster etc. will be more easily solved than with the actual redaction, without any abuse.
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray imagecopy of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, 10 minutes have elapsed or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 1413+ your proficiency bonus and 1 hit point. No other AC calculation can be used for the echo and it gains no AC benefit from any other means. The echo's hit points cannot be increased above 1 by any means., and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Echo Avatar
7th-level Echo Knight feature
You can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo’s eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.
Shadow Martyr
10th-level Echo Knight feature
You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Reclaim Potential
15th-level Echo Knight feature
You’ve learned to absorb the fleeting magic of your echo. When an echo of yours is destroyed by taking damage, you can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to 2d6 + your Constitution modifier, provided you don’t already have temporary hit points.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Legion of One
18th-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to create two echoeswith your Manifest Echo feature. Each echo counts as a useand these echoes can coexist. If you try to create a third echo, the previous two echoes are destroyed. Anything you can do from one echo’s position can be done from the other’s instead.
In addition, when you roll initiative and have no uses of your Unleash IncarnationManifest Echo feature left, you regain one use of that feature.
Making the Manifest Echo feature a limited resource means its power can be increased and do things like count as a creature/give advantage. Much like the battle masters superiority dice, Manifest Echo being a limited resource means that when the fighter does not know when/if they will get a chance to rest makes using the echo a much bigger risk/reward. When trying to get information at a local tavern and a fistfight breaks out with some drunk toughs the echo may not see action. The Big Bad/Party Nemesis appears and the echo is on the scene to assist. It can be used to trigger traps open doors or explore much like an unseen servant. If you can fly it can fly. If you can't fly it can't.
I've collected the following additional questions, and wanted to get people's thoughts on how to rule them. Thoughts are also welcome on if these questions should be included at all or combined with other questions.
Does an Echo need to breath? Presumably if it is just an image, no.
Can an Echo Avatar open doors or go through them? Presumably no, it can't take any other actions and occupies a physical space.
Can it be given temporary hitpoints or have it's max hp increased? Presumably only if those benefits extend to objects since it is not a creature.
Can it use class features of the parent class, for instance could it use Rogueish evasion to save against an AOE spell? Presumably no because it can't take reactions or other actions.
When it's hit with an attack, can it use Armor of Hexes for a full save. What about using an abjurers ward to keep it alive. ???
Could I have the echo throw nets without me picking them up? Alchemist fire? Presumably yes, but it the ranged weapon/item must exist on the Knight and it works as normal, except that the attack originates from the Echo's location.
Will shield of faith work on it? I believe Shield of Faith can only target creatures?
Being shoved is not a condition, just prone, what if someone wants to shove it backwards?
Presumabley nothing happens. Shoving: "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee Attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you." Since the echo isn't a creature, it can't be targeted with a shove.
By extension, can an Echo be involuntarily moved, pushed, or pulled? What affects should do this? Presumably only affects that can target and object can move it? Telekensis? What else could move it? Does it otherwise act as an immovable rod? What if it is in front of a door to block it? how much force can it stop?
Can it move underwater? Does it displace water? Presumably yes. It doesn't have a movement speed and can move through water. It also occupies a physical space, so it presumably displaces water? What about traveling through lave? I assume it would take damage and disappear. What can or can't it travel throught?
When it moves, is it silent? Presumably yes since it is just a floating image. Would this impact its ability to 'stealth' or be detected? It's a "magical, translucent, gray image of you," so yes. It doesn't actually exist, it's like a mirror image or any number of illusion spells.
No, echoes don't need to breathe. They're objects. Rocks don't need to breathe, so neither do Echoes. (This makes them even better in Spelljammer games.)
No, because they aren't creatures, and the description doesn't allow them to do so.
No, objects cannot gain temporary hit points. Their hit point maximum can't increase, as there are no current ways to do so to an object.
No, because you wouldn't be the one hit by the attack that triggers those reactions, the echo is. The only reaction the echo can "take" is allowing you to make an opportunity attack from its position.
No, and no. These only apply to you being hit, or an ally. Since an echo isn't you, and isn't an ally, you can't use these abilities.
Yes to the net, no to the alchemist's fire, unless you are specifically doing so as part of your attack action.
No, shield of faith only works on creatures.
You can only shove creatures.
It is unclear on how much pounds it can hold or support while levitating, but it can be manipulated by any ability that allows an object to be targeted.
It can travel through water, and would displace water, the same amount you would, because water displacement is dependent on volume, which the echo should share with you. It can't travel through lava, because it would take fire damage and instantly disappear. It can travel through space. It can travel through any fluid or lack of a fluid that wouldn't damage it when it does so.
Yes, it should move silently.
I hope this helps.
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@Devolnu, if you want feedback on this, I'd make a new thread. I personally disagree with all the changes, (it doesn't change what I'd like changed with the subclass, and changes that which I was fine with how they were).
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Making the Manifest Echo feature a limited resource means its power can be increased and do things like count as a creature/give advantage. Much like the battle masters superiority dice, Manifest Echo being a limited resource means that when the fighter does not know when/if they will get a chance to rest makes using the echo a much bigger risk/reward. When trying to get information at a local tavern and a fistfight breaks out with some drunk toughs the echo may not see action. The Big Bad/Party Nemesis appears and the echo is on the scene to assist. It can be used to trigger traps open doors or explore much like an unseen servant. If you can fly it can fly. If you can't fly it can't.
Cool ideas Devolnu. I've been wondering if I should add a "House Rules" section to the FAQ for ideas on different solutions.
I like how you wanted to limit the Echo, but make it more powerful. You've also simplified some of the rules. Having an identical clone is many ways could be very fun. I do wonder however about it still having 1 HP. As a player, I'd be very hesitant to have a limited resources that is so easily killed. That said, I haven't seen them in practice much.
One of the things I personally really like as a player is that fact that they are unlimited to spawn, though easy to kill. That feeling of having a power that can't be taken away or that won't run out is attractive to me. Obviously to balance this, they can't be as strong, and I assume they won't work in all situations.
Thanks for sharing your rules revisions, I'm curious what others think.
Is the Echo an immovable object? Being that is said to be only moved by the Knight.
There is nothing in the rules to suppose that it is an immovable object.
On the contrary, if there is an effect that can move an object and establish a saving throw based on the statistics of the object, what does appear in the rules is that the Knight's statistics can be used for that type of rolls => "If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll."
Hi @khorecs, @Devolnu, @Levirocks, and everyone else,
I have an idea and a proposal. I was thinking about adding "house rules & rulings" to this this thread, and I'd be curious to get your thoughts or participation.
In the second post of this thread, I created a new section for house rules with the below content. I'd love to add some of your ideas, what do you all think?
ECHO KNIGHT HOUSE RULES & RULINGS
Why
If you are a DM, how would you rule on or run an Echo Knight at your table?
To fill some of the gaps or simplify the complexity of the rules for the Echo Knight class, some DMs have come up with their own house rules. The goal of this post is to collect some of the different ideas and rules DMs are using at their table, to be a reference for your table should you need them.
Below are listed some of the various house rules I’ve come across.
Instructions
Create a separate, new forum thread with your house rules proposal.
This is primarily so other people can discuss it. Title the thread whatever you’d like. For example, “Echo Knight House Rules Proposal: Limited Uses"
Within this thread, post a one paragraph summary of your rules proposal, and a link to the thread you started.
Wait. I’ll add your summary and link to the list below as soon as I can get to it.
Thanks Devolnu. Just wanted to make a small contribution. I wanted to try playing an Echo Knight one day, and wanted to make sure I understood how it worked. But I'll save my own character concepts for another time.
No, you don't duplicate your objects, the echo doesn't have anything while summoned. It wouldn't have a torch, and that non-existent torch wouldn't give off light.
Yes. You can avoid opportunity attacks by teleporting. This is true for any source of teleportation, from misty step to eladrin's step.
Unclear. I'd say no, because that would allow you to essentially use the echo as a jetpack. Just hold onto the echo or vice versa, and then fly up 30 feet every round. It never moves further away from you, which then would let you fly permanently with no spells expended, and other such exploits. This is broken, and should not be allowed IMHO.
You cannot grapple objects. Grappling specifies that it must target a creature. Echoes are objects. Therefore, you cannot grapple an echo.
(Can't everyone move while grappling?) I guess if the echo can, you could grapple a creature, make it hover 30 feet up in the air, and then drop the creature to do falling damage.
You can probably tie a rope around an echo. Again, this would allow for some strange exploits, like the jetpack idea I listed above.
Echoes cannot wield shields. It is unclear what is the extent to things they can interact with. They wouldn't get an AC bonus, because an object gets no bonus from a shield. A boulder can't increase its armor class by laying a shield on it. Echoes can't use shields.
You can't ready a bonus action. No one can. Not Echo Knights, not anyone.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I understand that an Echo takes up a physical space. If the Echo is weighless and floats, I can't imagine it setting off any traps that require weight or gravity. So no pressure plates, no pit traps, etc. – unless of course the Knight already knows it is there. Though it might set off a tripwire or spell effect that can be triggered by objects. Thoughts?
The rules aren't clear on this. Just because it has no mass, or isn't effected by gravity doesn't mean that it has no substance. It definitely does have substance, which is why it can be damaged. I would say that it can trigger pressure plates and tripwires, but if and only if you specify that you are going to press it down against the ground or moving it across a space that you think it would be in.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Many thanks GodlessCleric for the additional questions. I've added them to the FAQ (with a few wording changes) and have marked them as (New). I tried my best to answer them with LeviRocks help.
You have a truly devious or optimized mind for trying to get the maximum benefit out of the rules. Though my guess is that most of the exploits below are not RAI. Still, they are clever and of course up to your DM to finally arbitrate.
This is reasonable and I've updated the question and answer.
Q: Can you make a ranged attack (for example with a bow) from the Echo’s space?
A: Yes, an attack action includes any attack using a ranged weapon as well.
Actually you may want to clarify this as it is partially true. You can with the normal attack action but not with the Unleash Incarnation feature.
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
May be worth calling this out.
Thanks for pointing this out. I've made the clarification in the FAQ.
Awesome! Thanks for making this BTW very helpful.
I've collected the following additional questions, and wanted to get people's thoughts on how to rule them. Thoughts are also welcome on if these questions should be included at all or combined with other questions.
Presumably if it is just an image, no.
Presumably no, it can't take any other actions and occupies a physical space.
Presumably only if those benefits extend to objects since it is not a creature.
Presumably no because it can't take reactions or other actions.
???
Presumably yes, but it the ranged weapon/item must exist on the Knight and it works as normal, except that the attack originates from the Echo's location.
I believe Shield of Faith can only target creatures?
Presumably only affects that can target and object can move it? Telekensis? What else could move it? Does it otherwise act as an immovable rod? What if it is in front of a door to block it? how much force can it stop?
Presumably yes. It doesn't have a movement speed and can move through water. It also occupies a physical space, so it presumably displaces water? What about traveling through lave? I assume it would take damage and disappear. What can or can't it travel throught?
Presumably yes since it is just a floating image. Would this impact its ability to 'stealth' or be detected?
It's a "magical, translucent, gray image of you," so yes. It doesn't actually exist, it's like a mirror image or any number of illusion spells.
Another question or two for folks.
Analogous Spells or Abilities
What spells or features does an Echo and/or Echo Avatar most act like from a rules perspective (or otherwise)? For example, it is mostly like a Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity except it takes a space, is it like more like a spiritual weapon or an animate object in how it attacks? Is the Avatar most similar to an Arcane Eye, or some other spell – or perhaps more like a familiar?
What mashup of spells or effects do you think be describe an Echo or Avatar? I'm asking to try to help give people a reference point.
Illusion or Object
An Echo has been referred to as just an image or illusion, but it has also be called an object. Which do you think it is more of, or can it be both? How would you describe an Echo to someone?
Presumably an Echo looks like, moves, and acts like the Knight. Which I think is what is causing people so much confusion about how to treat it. Is it intelligent?
Framework
In short, I'm wonder about the best framework to most accurately describe an Echo to help with the many rules questions. For example, is it just a portal for attacks? Does its appearance even matter?
My best house rule or house interpretation is taking the Echo Knight description as if to say "the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo for melee attacks and reactions".
No out-of-combat interactions, no carrying space, no skill checks or remote actions to deactivate traps. Echo is a shadow that can only help us in combat, with the only exception of teleporting or scouting at level 7. And there are no ranged attacks.
The attacks then originate from Knight, and could hit Knight's range (5 or 10 with weapons with range) plus the eight squares around the echo; no, the range of weapons adds nothing to the range of the echo.
- Flanking? The echo don´t give flank bonus, but still can be beneficiated from others allies, because is the reach of the Knight who is taking the flanking bonus.
- Reckless attack? The attack originates from the Knight, so is the Knight who offers advantage to every attacks done to him, no the echo.
- Grappling or shoving? Ok. Moving after grappling? I would only allow the echo free move on the x-y axes; rising through z axis would load the weight of the creature caught in the Knight, maybe causing him to be encumbered, depending the size of the grappled creature.
- Sight? If the additional reach provided by the echo has different sight conditions than the Knight normal reach, the attacks in the echos reach will have their own modifications. If the echo is in darkness and the fighter no, the attacks from echo has disadvantage and ones form the Knight no. (exactly as would happen with attacks if part of a traditional warrior's range was in the dark and part was not)
- Line of sight? If you can see from your range, you can attack. Yes, an echo can hit an enemy that can "see" but the fighter cannot.
Without an official FAQ, I think all the questions around sentinel feat, reach weapons, reactions, warcaster etc. will be more easily solved than with the actual redaction, without any abuse.
A recommended fix for the Echo Knight:
Additions
removalsFinal thoughts
Manifest Echo
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical
, translucent, gray imagecopy of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, 10 minutes have elapsed or until you’re incapacitated.Your echo has AC
1413 + your proficiency bonus and 1 hit point. No other AC calculation can be used for the echo and it gains no AC benefit from any other means. The echo's hit points cannot be increased above 1 by any means., and immunity to all conditions.If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space.On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to moveup to 30 feet in any direction(no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.You can use the echo in the following ways:
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.Echo Avatar
7th-level Echo Knight feature
You can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo’s eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.
Shadow Martyr
10th-level Echo Knight feature
You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Reclaim Potential
15th-level Echo Knight feature
You’ve learned to absorb the fleeting magic of your echo. When an echo of yours is destroyed by taking damage, you can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to 2d6 + your Constitution modifier, provided you don’t already have temporary hit points.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.Legion of One
18th-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to create two echoes with your Manifest Echo feature. Each echo counts as a use and these echoes can coexist. If you try to create a third echo, the previous two echoes are destroyed. Anything you can do from one echo’s position can be done from the other’s instead.
In addition, when you roll initiative and have no uses of your
Unleash IncarnationManifest Echo feature left, you regain one use of that feature.Making the Manifest Echo feature a limited resource means its power can be increased and do things like count as a creature/give advantage. Much like the battle masters superiority dice, Manifest Echo being a limited resource means that when the fighter does not know when/if they will get a chance to rest makes using the echo a much bigger risk/reward. When trying to get information at a local tavern and a fistfight breaks out with some drunk toughs the echo may not see action. The Big Bad/Party Nemesis appears and the echo is on the scene to assist. It can be used to trigger traps open doors or explore much like an unseen servant. If you can fly it can fly. If you can't fly it can't.
I hope this helps.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
@Devolnu, if you want feedback on this, I'd make a new thread. I personally disagree with all the changes, (it doesn't change what I'd like changed with the subclass, and changes that which I was fine with how they were).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Cool ideas Devolnu. I've been wondering if I should add a "House Rules" section to the FAQ for ideas on different solutions.
I like how you wanted to limit the Echo, but make it more powerful. You've also simplified some of the rules. Having an identical clone is many ways could be very fun. I do wonder however about it still having 1 HP. As a player, I'd be very hesitant to have a limited resources that is so easily killed. That said, I haven't seen them in practice much.
One of the things I personally really like as a player is that fact that they are unlimited to spawn, though easy to kill. That feeling of having a power that can't be taken away or that won't run out is attractive to me. Obviously to balance this, they can't be as strong, and I assume they won't work in all situations.
Thanks for sharing your rules revisions, I'm curious what others think.
Is the Echo an immovable object? Being that is said to be only moved by the Knight.
There is nothing in the rules to suppose that it is an immovable object.
On the contrary, if there is an effect that can move an object and establish a saving throw based on the statistics of the object, what does appear in the rules is that the Knight's statistics can be used for that type of rolls => "If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll."
Hi @khorecs, @Devolnu, @Levirocks, and everyone else,
I have an idea and a proposal. I was thinking about adding "house rules & rulings" to this this thread, and I'd be curious to get your thoughts or participation.
In the second post of this thread, I created a new section for house rules with the below content. I'd love to add some of your ideas, what do you all think?
ECHO KNIGHT HOUSE RULES & RULINGS
Why
Instructions
Thoughts?
I'd prefer Option 1, personally. It will keep the thread on topic.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms