Hi @LeviRocks, I have a question about your response to question #6:
6. Could I have the echo throw nets without me picking them up? Alchemist fire? Presumably yes, but it the ranged weapon/item must exist on the Knight and it works as normal, except that the attack originates from the Echo's location.
You answered:
6. Yes to the net, no to the alchemist's fire, unless you are specifically doing so as part of your attack action.
Does the Knight have to have the weapon they want to attack with equipped? For example, I assume if the Knight has a bow equipped, they can't make a sword attack through the Echo, even if they have a sword on their body?
To go further, unless the weapon they are using has the 'Ammunition' property where loading it is part of the attack action (i.e. a long bow), wouldn't the Knight have to have it in their hand and ready to use to make an attack with it, either themselves or through an Echo?
I may have misinterpreted the the question above. "...without me picking them up?" I assume means without a Knight equipping it?
Hi all. I've made a number of updates to the FAQ including many of the questions posted in the previous thread. All updates should be marked in green with a date. I also add a Spell Interactions section. Comments and corrections welcome.
Hi @khorecs, @Devolnu, @Levirocks, and everyone else,
I have an idea and a proposal. I was thinking about adding "house rules & rulings" to this this thread, and I'd be curious to get your thoughts or participation.
In the second post of this thread, I created a new section for house rules with the below content. I'd love to add some of your ideas, what do you all think?
...
Okay, I changed my mind somewhat. I started a new thread in the House Rules forum, asking for input and ideas for how to fix the Echo Knight or how folks are playing it at their table. It could be a good place for discuss, or just to learn what rules other folks are using.
Hi @khorecs, @Devolnu, @Levirocks, and everyone else,
I have an idea and a proposal. I was thinking about adding "house rules & rulings" to this this thread, and I'd be curious to get your thoughts or participation.
In the second post of this thread, I created a new section for house rules with the below content. I'd love to add some of your ideas, what do you all think?
...
Okay, I changed my mind somewhat. I started a new thread in the House Rules forum, asking for input and ideas for how to fix the Echo Knight or how folks are playing it at their table. It could be a good place for discuss, or just to learn what rules other folks are using.
Hi @LeviRocks, I have a question about your response to question #6:
6. Could I have the echo throw nets without me picking them up? Alchemist fire? Presumably yes, but it the ranged weapon/item must exist on the Knight and it works as normal, except that the attack originates from the Echo's location.
You answered:
6. Yes to the net, no to the alchemist's fire, unless you are specifically doing so as part of your attack action.
Does the Knight have to have the weapon they want to attack with equipped? For example, I assume if the Knight has a bow equipped, they can't make a sword attack through the Echo, even if they have a sword on their body?
To go further, unless the weapon they are using has the 'Ammunition' property where loading it is part of the attack action (i.e. a long bow), wouldn't the Knight have to have it in their hand and ready to use to make an attack with it, either themselves or through an Echo?
I may have misinterpreted the the question above. "...without me picking them up?" I assume means without a Knight equipping it?
Thoughts?
[edit] fixed typo
You would need to be holding the net in order to throw it from the Echo's space.
You would need to draw an arrow to shoot it as normal. Literally everything functions the same with how you attack, but the place the attack appears from changes.
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I think a lot of people are going out of their way to figure out how to game a mechanic that's mostly just meant to allow freedom of movement and range for attacks.
I would be heavily against an Echo ever being able to trigger a trap unless the trigger specifically mentions being able to see a target. This is essentially an illusory image that you can't share a space with. There's nothing in the rules that allow it to do anything other than move and attack with the weapon you currently are also attacking with. That would include the inability to interact with any other objects unless you are attempting to physically attack them.
That also means there shouldn't be any craziness about it pulling out nets/bolos/rope to ensnare/grapple people unless that's also what you're doing. All the echo is available for is to be a conduit for yourattack. I think there's far too much theorycrafting around the flawed premise that its somehow its own creature, which the rules clearly state is not true.
Now, all of that said, the thing I've not seen anyone mention as an extremely useful feature of an echo outside of combat is the ability to avoid failed climbing/jumping checks by manifesting an echo, telling it to go up to 60' away from you, and then switching places with it. With the ability to move on the X,Y, and Z axis, that seems like an extremely useful bonus. Additionally, breaking into any area that you can see into without having to physically traverse through a doorway or window (manifest echo inside the room, then swap) is a pretty huge help too.
I think a lot of people are going out of their way to figure out how to game a mechanic that's mostly just meant to allow freedom of movement and range for attacks.
Not going out of our way, just explaining how this strangely worded subclass works, as there is a ton of confusion about it. This is the most confusing subclass in the game, so I think it is warranted to have questions and explanations about it. Also, it isn't just about freedom of movement and range of attacks. There's much more to it than that.
I would be heavily against an Echo ever being able to trigger a trap unless the trigger specifically mentions being able to see a target. This is essentially an illusory image that you can't share a space with. There's nothing in the rules that allow it to do anything other than move and attack with the weapon you currently are also attacking with. That would include the inability to interact with any other objects unless you are attempting to physically attack them.
So, you don't think an echo can trigger a trap, unless a trap can see a target? What traps have eyes? Also, some traps that do attack targets normally only attack creatures. If a trap can be triggered by a rock, an echo should be able to trigger it. Put the echo on a pressure plate and move it down. Have the echo move through a tripwire to trigger it. It's not unreasonable to have a floating rock move through a wire to trigger a trap.
Also, there are things in the rules that allow Echos to do things besides move and attack with the weapon you're holding. You can probably grapple/shove through the echo's position. You can probably do a lot of stuff not written in the book, it just takes a bit of understanding of how these rules work.
That also means there shouldn't be any craziness about it pulling out nets/bolos/rope to ensnare/grapple people unless that's also what you're doing. All the echo is available for is to be a conduit for yourattack. I think there's far too much theorycrafting around the flawed premise that its somehow its own creature, which the rules clearly state is not true.
Yes, it is not a creature. Yes, you can't attack with a net through its position unless you are physically holding the net to do so. The net then teleports to where your echo threw it. You can grapple/shove through its position, but because of how the rules interact with these 2 different mechanics, there's not much information that we have that shows how they interact. We know they interact, but until the Devs straight up tell us how they work, we just don't know.
Now, all of that said, the thing I've not seen anyone mention as an extremely useful feature of an echo outside of combat is the ability to avoid failed climbing/jumping checks by manifesting an echo, telling it to go up to 60' away from you, and then switching places with it. With the ability to move on the X,Y, and Z axis, that seems like an extremely useful bonus. Additionally, breaking into any area that you can see into without having to physically traverse through a doorway or window (manifest echo inside the room, then swap) is a pretty huge help too.
There are a lot of things you can do that are very useful that aren't specifically listed in the rules. You can divine smite or sneak attack from far away. You can, as the rules are currently written in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, fly the echo up 1,000 feet and then teleport to its position. (Sure, not an intended features, which will soon be removed, but if your group ignores all the tweets from Crawford, it is technically legal.)
Echoes are complicated, so this thread needs to exist to answer some questions about it.
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Echoes are complicated, so this thread needs to exist to answer some questions about it.
Sure, I'm not discounting that. In fact, I'm glad the thread exists. I came looking specifically for something like this to see if there was something wrong with the additional movement features I mentioned. What I didn't expect to see was a thread full of questions that basically amount to "how much can I treat my echo like a familiar or animal companion" when RAW and RAI both really are pretty heavily weighted toward diffusing that right off.
To address some of your other statements, there may be traps that require a target to be visible. I don't expect traps to have eyes (though in theory a really terrifying BBEG might just use something like that). So I'll assume we're both not morons and can move on from that one. But it's possible for a trap to have visible sensors through arcane means akin to a motion detection. In which case, we know by the description that it has an image and can therefore be detected through visual means. However, we've all largely agreed that it has no weight and since it can take no actions other than to attack, it can't interact with anything except to attack.
Special attack actions like grapple/shove are still attacks so sure, if you want clarification on that, go for it. My own DM ruling would be a that a shove is allowed, but since a grapple is an ongoing action and you're only using the echo as a conduit for your own attack, unless you want to be standing there as if physically grappling a target while your echo is doing the same, I wouldn't allow it.
As for tripwires, RAW reads that it's an image. All the image-based spells I can find are all sight/sound/smell/etc but not touch. Since that's the case, I would liken it much more to a Major Image than a telekinetically moved rock. And I wouldn't allow any illusory images to trigger a tripwire. That would also require mass, just like stepping on a pressure plate would.
Finally, yes, Divine Smite, Sneak Attack, and any number of class-based feature attacks are usable with the Echo Knight. Not questioning that at all. It also doesn't seem to need clarifying outside of positioning and what counts for flanking/allies (which I believe we have a firm ruling on). If you are able to perform said attack, your echo is able to perform said attack in its square in lieu of you performing it in your square. My suggestions on out of combat usage don't really have anything in common with those abilities and I was merely throwing them out as ideas I have yet to see mentioned by many of the "build advice" and "how to break this class" articles out there. My apologies for throwing something new into the mix, I guess?
Echoes are complicated, so this thread needs to exist to answer some questions about it.
Sure, I'm not discounting that. In fact, I'm glad the thread exists. I came looking specifically for something like this to see if there was something wrong with the additional movement features I mentioned. What I didn't expect to see was a thread full of questions that basically amount to "how much can I treat my echo like a familiar or animal companion" when RAW and RAI both really are pretty heavily weighted toward diffusing that right off.
Yes. I understand the fact that you want to make sure people know that echoes can't function like creatures or familiars. They aren't like that. They have no personalities, contrary to popular belief. They literally do nothing. Under specific circumstances you can do things through them. (I'm agreeing with you.) I didn't expect so many people to not understand this either. They have just as much personality as an inanimate rock.
To address some of your other statements, there may be traps that require a target to be visible. I don't expect traps to have eyes (though in theory a really terrifying BBEG might just use something like that). So I'll assume we're both not morons and can move on from that one. But it's possible for a trap to have visible sensors through arcane means akin to a motion detection. In which case, we know by the description that it has an image and can therefore be detected through visual means. However, we've all largely agreed that it has no weight and since it can take no actions other than to attack, it can't interact with anything except to attack.
There could be traps that have motion sensors or magical creature scrying sensors, but if if a trap has arcane means of being triggered only when a creature passes through, yes the Echo obviously could not trigger it. It has no weight and cannot take any actions, period. Like I said above, you take actions, reactions, and move through them in some circumstances. They literally do nothing.
Special attack actions like grapple/shove are still attacks so sure, if you want clarification on that, go for it. My own DM ruling would be a that a shove is allowed, but since a grapple is an ongoing action and you're only using the echo as a conduit for your own attack, unless you want to be standing there as if physically grappling a target while your echo is doing the same, I wouldn't allow it.
Yes, they can shove RAW. Grappling is less clear. Grappling has no rules for how an echo would do so or maintain the grapple. It's not clear whether or not a creature can try to escape from the grapple of the echo, or if they even have to try to escape to do so. It is clear that you can grapple through the echo, but what actually happens is up to debate. What if you grapple a creature through the echo and you put a shield or weapon in that hand? What if I teleport to the echo's space after I grapple a creature, do I continue grappling it? This is less clear, and I do want to say that they cannot maintain a grapple, but until we get an official ruling this will remain unclear.
As for tripwires, RAW reads that it's an image. All the image-based spells I can find are all sight/sound/smell/etc but not touch. Since that's the case, I would liken it much more to a Major Image than a telekinetically moved rock. And I wouldn't allow any illusory images to trigger a tripwire. That would also require mass, just like stepping on a pressure plate would.
Yes, they are stated to be images, but they are also objects. Objects aren't illusions. Objects have physical space. Objects can't travel through other objects. If the echo could just pass through a tripwire, you would be able to move it through walls, which you cannot do. Major Image cannot trigger a tripwire, but echoes are different. They can trigger tripwires and pressure plates, most likely, as they do occupy a space and have an armor class and hit points. F=m*a. Sure, they are said to be images, but they also have a physical nature to them. That's why attacks can hit them, why they're solid.
Finally, yes, Divine Smite, Sneak Attack, and any number of class-based feature attacks are usable with the Echo Knight. Not questioning that at all. It also doesn't seem to need clarifying outside of positioning and what counts for flanking/allies (which I believe we have a firm ruling on). If you are able to perform said attack, your echo is able to perform said attack in its square in lieu of you performing it in your square. My suggestions on out of combat usage don't really have anything in common with those abilities and I was merely throwing them out as ideas I have yet to see mentioned by many of the "build advice" and "how to break this class" articles out there. My apologies for throwing something new into the mix, I guess?
Yes, we need no clarifications from the Devs about flanking, divine smite, sneak attack and other certain abilities. You have nothing to apologize for, I wasn't attacking you, just making corrections. I had been under the impression that you thought that this thread didn't need to exist, as if there was nothing that needed talking about. I misread your meaning. Sorry.
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Yes, they are stated to be images, but they are also objects. Objects aren't illusions. Objects have physical space. Objects can't travel through other objects. If the echo could just pass through a tripwire, you would be able to move it through walls, which you cannot do. Major Image cannot trigger a tripwire, but echoes are different. They can trigger tripwires and pressure plates, most likely, as they do occupy a space and have an armor class and hit points. F=m*a. Sure, they are said to be images, but they also have a physical nature to them. That's why attacks can hit them, why they're solid.
I'm with you on most of the other stuff. But if we're going off of F=m*a, I'm pretty sure you already mentioned much earlier in the thread that it has no mass, which I agree with. I would also argue that it has no acceleration. By definition (and confirmed with Sage Advice), it literally has no speed, even though it can "move" 30'. (Side note, maybe we should think more of the echo "move" as a blink from point A to point B rather than watching a shadow figure run from place to place?)
0 mass * 0 acceleration = 0 Force, so at least when I run until there's better clarification, no pressure plates or tripwires will be triggered with echos as both require force moving forward and/or down.
They don't have mass when they're not moving, but as soon as they move, they technically gain a bit of mass. Anything that moves at varying speeds in the same environment has acceleration, and there is a force in it, as they occupy a space.
They don't teleport or blink when they move. They physically move that direction.
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I don’t understand some of the confusion around Echo Avatar. The wording certainly needs cleanup, but the paragraph does say that perceiving through the echo takes an action, so no attacking unless using Action Surge, reaction or bonus action attack would seem allowed. The Manifest Echo ability specifies you can swap with the echo regardless of distance between.
Certainly the echo should have been named as being an object, that was quite an oversight.
The Manifest Echo ability specifies you can swap with the echo regardless of distance between.
Jeremy Crawford has clarified that the Echo Avatar ability is meant to be used as a scouting/perception based feature only and that it's missing a key description that states this, but that it should be there. So no 1000' swapping.
They don't teleport or blink when they move. They physically move that direction.
I'm still not completely convinced that's the intent here. The ability to manifest in any unoccupied space, the term teleport is specifically used both when swapping spaces with an Echo and when using the Shadow Martyr ability, and the fact that it's been stated the echo specifically has a move speed of 0 seem to imply to me that it starts and point A and then reappears in point B. What force is acting on it when it's floating on the Z axis 10' above the ground but utilizing no magical abilities to levitate or a fly speed?
I'm still thinking that for the vast majority of the time it exists, the Force exerted is 0, which means that no matter your perception of acceleration, 0 divided by any number is still 0. So in my estimation, still no mass. ::shrug::
I get that with Dimension Door or Misty Step, the term teleport is specifically used. If there's anything in particular that I need clarified, it's this. In what way is it moving without moving? I think that would clear up a lot of the other gray areas with the subclass in general. It would help with determining whether it's akin to Unseen Servant in its ability to trigger traps. It would further help to explain story-wise why the echo can't be targeted with an Attack of Opportunity (though mechanically, that's already been explained). But at this point, all our debate is purely academic until we actually hear from the devs what their intent is. RAI is only good if we know that and not just assume that.
If they intended it to teleport everywhere it moves, they would've said it in the book or any of the tweets they've done. Nothing suggests that their normal movement is teleportation. Just because they can teleport doesn't mean they do it all the time. That's like saying "Eladrin can teleport, so the must do it every time the move!"
There's a lot of confusion with this subclass, so I created a thread based on this topic for Explorer's Guide to Wildemount: Why you put subclasses and spells in UA
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I think that an Echo doesn't have a speed because it was never intended to move on its own. It is something moved by the Knight, on the Knights turn, much like a Spiritual Weapon or Unseen Servant. I also think that an Echo doesn't teleport for its normally move is because the word "teleport" was not used to describe its movement. But it was specifically called out that it does teleport in other cases. The description is much more akin to how the other spells are worded.
But you bring up the main question that I have been grappling with. Is the Echo a 'thing' – and object in the shape and size of the knight that takes up physical space and happens to move/float about? OR is the Echo an image/mirage/illusion – a "magical, translucent, gray image of you" that floats about, and also prevents things from getting close to it (occupies a square) and vanishes if attacked with enough precision or force.
If the model for an Echo is really an object (though translucent or semi-substantial), then regardless of its shape, it can be interacted with like an object. Doors block it, it can be pushed, carried, or pulled, it displaces water, and it can interact with traps.
If the model for an Echo is really more of an image (like spiritual weapon), then maybe it doesn't interact with things around it, and it is really just more of a 'portal' for attack from the Knight. The complication is that it still occupies a space, though this might be more of a magical force than a physical one. If it has no mass or weight, can it be moved or pulled by other things (telekinesis, carrying, other forced movement abilities), or is it effectively an “immovable rod” that can only be moved by the Knight? And if it is just an image, can it move through walls, the RAW isn’t specific here?
I think the complications is that it has some properties of both, and so I’m struggling to figure out the right mental model for my own rulings. By the rules and Jeremy Crawford, it has been called both an image and an object. Thoughts?
I was wondering about the opportunity attack ability from the echo's location.
Would disengage work to prevent the reaction from the echo knight to get an opportunity attack? The ability calls a trigger of a creature moving out of 5 feet squares surrounding the echo.
Since the echo is an object and doesn't threaten the squares, which imho was what the disengage prevented in order for the opportunity attack to occur.
Does the echo knight still get to use the reaction for an opportunity attack while the target is disengaged?
I believe the intention would be that disengage still works the way disengage always works and would prevent the EK from getting an AoO through the echo. "Your movement doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn" seems a pretty blanket statement regardless how you're getting said opportunity attack.
If an echo knight wears Robe of Eyes then uses Echo Avatar, does it's Echo see all directions? If you have sight up to extraneous distances via feats/racials/items does your vision while viewing the world from your echo use this same view distance/capability?
@The_Humble_Giant From my understanding it's an "Image" of a past or future version of yourself here with you, so kind of like the Ghost guy in Shadow of Mordor, you attacking from your "Image" would be for a split second, your arm comes from him and does the attack you do from your body, replaced by it's arm, essentially it's an illusion that is so bonded to you that you are one with it : If it were an object spells like Fireball would still effect it although without it having a TRUE form being an object is the closest approximation we can give it If it were a true illusion then enemies could still perceive it as a target and it would be "considered" a creature If it were a creature, it's not, just not :P If you didn't call it an Illusion or an object you could just call it a Temporal Manifestation of yourself which could magically own it's own space but without RAW being announced it's up to the DM to decide whether it would be shoved or would be a static being (having an immovable rod manifestable at level 1 is a tad broken though so I'd assume it can be shoved/grappled as you can but why do that when you could just attack it and banish it for that round)
You answered:
Does the Knight have to have the weapon they want to attack with equipped? For example, I assume if the Knight has a bow equipped, they can't make a sword attack through the Echo, even if they have a sword on their body?
To go further, unless the weapon they are using has the 'Ammunition' property where loading it is part of the attack action (i.e. a long bow), wouldn't the Knight have to have it in their hand and ready to use to make an attack with it, either themselves or through an Echo?
I may have misinterpreted the the question above. "...without me picking them up?" I assume means without a Knight equipping it?
Thoughts?
[edit] fixed typo
Hi all. I've made a number of updates to the FAQ including many of the questions posted in the previous thread. All updates should be marked in green with a date. I also add a Spell Interactions section. Comments and corrections welcome.
Okay, I changed my mind somewhat. I started a new thread in the House Rules forum, asking for input and ideas for how to fix the Echo Knight or how folks are playing it at their table. It could be a good place for discuss, or just to learn what rules other folks are using.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/homebrew-house-rules/65827-request-for-echo-knight-house-rules-homebrew
You're doing a great job. I had not responded to the previous initiative for reasons of life :P
I'm going to write my proposal correctly in the house rules post, I'm very interested in what the community can say about it.
Thank you!
You would need to be holding the net in order to throw it from the Echo's space.
You would need to draw an arrow to shoot it as normal. Literally everything functions the same with how you attack, but the place the attack appears from changes.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think a lot of people are going out of their way to figure out how to game a mechanic that's mostly just meant to allow freedom of movement and range for attacks.
I would be heavily against an Echo ever being able to trigger a trap unless the trigger specifically mentions being able to see a target. This is essentially an illusory image that you can't share a space with. There's nothing in the rules that allow it to do anything other than move and attack with the weapon you currently are also attacking with. That would include the inability to interact with any other objects unless you are attempting to physically attack them.
That also means there shouldn't be any craziness about it pulling out nets/bolos/rope to ensnare/grapple people unless that's also what you're doing. All the echo is available for is to be a conduit for your attack. I think there's far too much theorycrafting around the flawed premise that its somehow its own creature, which the rules clearly state is not true.
Now, all of that said, the thing I've not seen anyone mention as an extremely useful feature of an echo outside of combat is the ability to avoid failed climbing/jumping checks by manifesting an echo, telling it to go up to 60' away from you, and then switching places with it. With the ability to move on the X,Y, and Z axis, that seems like an extremely useful bonus. Additionally, breaking into any area that you can see into without having to physically traverse through a doorway or window (manifest echo inside the room, then swap) is a pretty huge help too.
Not going out of our way, just explaining how this strangely worded subclass works, as there is a ton of confusion about it. This is the most confusing subclass in the game, so I think it is warranted to have questions and explanations about it. Also, it isn't just about freedom of movement and range of attacks. There's much more to it than that.
So, you don't think an echo can trigger a trap, unless a trap can see a target? What traps have eyes? Also, some traps that do attack targets normally only attack creatures. If a trap can be triggered by a rock, an echo should be able to trigger it. Put the echo on a pressure plate and move it down. Have the echo move through a tripwire to trigger it. It's not unreasonable to have a floating rock move through a wire to trigger a trap.
Also, there are things in the rules that allow Echos to do things besides move and attack with the weapon you're holding. You can probably grapple/shove through the echo's position. You can probably do a lot of stuff not written in the book, it just takes a bit of understanding of how these rules work.
Yes, it is not a creature. Yes, you can't attack with a net through its position unless you are physically holding the net to do so. The net then teleports to where your echo threw it. You can grapple/shove through its position, but because of how the rules interact with these 2 different mechanics, there's not much information that we have that shows how they interact. We know they interact, but until the Devs straight up tell us how they work, we just don't know.
There are a lot of things you can do that are very useful that aren't specifically listed in the rules. You can divine smite or sneak attack from far away. You can, as the rules are currently written in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, fly the echo up 1,000 feet and then teleport to its position. (Sure, not an intended features, which will soon be removed, but if your group ignores all the tweets from Crawford, it is technically legal.)
Echoes are complicated, so this thread needs to exist to answer some questions about it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Sure, I'm not discounting that. In fact, I'm glad the thread exists. I came looking specifically for something like this to see if there was something wrong with the additional movement features I mentioned. What I didn't expect to see was a thread full of questions that basically amount to "how much can I treat my echo like a familiar or animal companion" when RAW and RAI both really are pretty heavily weighted toward diffusing that right off.
To address some of your other statements, there may be traps that require a target to be visible. I don't expect traps to have eyes (though in theory a really terrifying BBEG might just use something like that). So I'll assume we're both not morons and can move on from that one. But it's possible for a trap to have visible sensors through arcane means akin to a motion detection. In which case, we know by the description that it has an image and can therefore be detected through visual means. However, we've all largely agreed that it has no weight and since it can take no actions other than to attack, it can't interact with anything except to attack.
Special attack actions like grapple/shove are still attacks so sure, if you want clarification on that, go for it. My own DM ruling would be a that a shove is allowed, but since a grapple is an ongoing action and you're only using the echo as a conduit for your own attack, unless you want to be standing there as if physically grappling a target while your echo is doing the same, I wouldn't allow it.
As for tripwires, RAW reads that it's an image. All the image-based spells I can find are all sight/sound/smell/etc but not touch. Since that's the case, I would liken it much more to a Major Image than a telekinetically moved rock. And I wouldn't allow any illusory images to trigger a tripwire. That would also require mass, just like stepping on a pressure plate would.
Finally, yes, Divine Smite, Sneak Attack, and any number of class-based feature attacks are usable with the Echo Knight. Not questioning that at all. It also doesn't seem to need clarifying outside of positioning and what counts for flanking/allies (which I believe we have a firm ruling on). If you are able to perform said attack, your echo is able to perform said attack in its square in lieu of you performing it in your square. My suggestions on out of combat usage don't really have anything in common with those abilities and I was merely throwing them out as ideas I have yet to see mentioned by many of the "build advice" and "how to break this class" articles out there. My apologies for throwing something new into the mix, I guess?
Yes. I understand the fact that you want to make sure people know that echoes can't function like creatures or familiars. They aren't like that. They have no personalities, contrary to popular belief. They literally do nothing. Under specific circumstances you can do things through them. (I'm agreeing with you.) I didn't expect so many people to not understand this either. They have just as much personality as an inanimate rock.
There could be traps that have motion sensors or magical creature scrying sensors, but if if a trap has arcane means of being triggered only when a creature passes through, yes the Echo obviously could not trigger it. It has no weight and cannot take any actions, period. Like I said above, you take actions, reactions, and move through them in some circumstances. They literally do nothing.
Yes, they can shove RAW. Grappling is less clear. Grappling has no rules for how an echo would do so or maintain the grapple. It's not clear whether or not a creature can try to escape from the grapple of the echo, or if they even have to try to escape to do so. It is clear that you can grapple through the echo, but what actually happens is up to debate. What if you grapple a creature through the echo and you put a shield or weapon in that hand? What if I teleport to the echo's space after I grapple a creature, do I continue grappling it? This is less clear, and I do want to say that they cannot maintain a grapple, but until we get an official ruling this will remain unclear.
Yes, they are stated to be images, but they are also objects. Objects aren't illusions. Objects have physical space. Objects can't travel through other objects. If the echo could just pass through a tripwire, you would be able to move it through walls, which you cannot do. Major Image cannot trigger a tripwire, but echoes are different. They can trigger tripwires and pressure plates, most likely, as they do occupy a space and have an armor class and hit points. F=m*a. Sure, they are said to be images, but they also have a physical nature to them. That's why attacks can hit them, why they're solid.
Yes, we need no clarifications from the Devs about flanking, divine smite, sneak attack and other certain abilities. You have nothing to apologize for, I wasn't attacking you, just making corrections. I had been under the impression that you thought that this thread didn't need to exist, as if there was nothing that needed talking about. I misread your meaning. Sorry.
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I'm with you on most of the other stuff. But if we're going off of F=m*a, I'm pretty sure you already mentioned much earlier in the thread that it has no mass, which I agree with. I would also argue that it has no acceleration. By definition (and confirmed with Sage Advice), it literally has no speed, even though it can "move" 30'. (Side note, maybe we should think more of the echo "move" as a blink from point A to point B rather than watching a shadow figure run from place to place?)
0 mass * 0 acceleration = 0 Force, so at least when I run until there's better clarification, no pressure plates or tripwires will be triggered with echos as both require force moving forward and/or down.
m=F/a
They don't have mass when they're not moving, but as soon as they move, they technically gain a bit of mass. Anything that moves at varying speeds in the same environment has acceleration, and there is a force in it, as they occupy a space.
They don't teleport or blink when they move. They physically move that direction.
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I don’t understand some of the confusion around Echo Avatar. The wording certainly needs cleanup, but the paragraph does say that perceiving through the echo takes an action, so no attacking unless using Action Surge, reaction or bonus action attack would seem allowed. The Manifest Echo ability specifies you can swap with the echo regardless of distance between.
Certainly the echo should have been named as being an object, that was quite an oversight.
Jeremy Crawford has clarified that the Echo Avatar ability is meant to be used as a scouting/perception based feature only and that it's missing a key description that states this, but that it should be there. So no 1000' swapping.
I'm still not completely convinced that's the intent here. The ability to manifest in any unoccupied space, the term teleport is specifically used both when swapping spaces with an Echo and when using the Shadow Martyr ability, and the fact that it's been stated the echo specifically has a move speed of 0 seem to imply to me that it starts and point A and then reappears in point B. What force is acting on it when it's floating on the Z axis 10' above the ground but utilizing no magical abilities to levitate or a fly speed?
I'm still thinking that for the vast majority of the time it exists, the Force exerted is 0, which means that no matter your perception of acceleration, 0 divided by any number is still 0. So in my estimation, still no mass. ::shrug::
I get that with Dimension Door or Misty Step, the term teleport is specifically used. If there's anything in particular that I need clarified, it's this. In what way is it moving without moving? I think that would clear up a lot of the other gray areas with the subclass in general. It would help with determining whether it's akin to Unseen Servant in its ability to trigger traps. It would further help to explain story-wise why the echo can't be targeted with an Attack of Opportunity (though mechanically, that's already been explained). But at this point, all our debate is purely academic until we actually hear from the devs what their intent is. RAI is only good if we know that and not just assume that.
If they intended it to teleport everywhere it moves, they would've said it in the book or any of the tweets they've done. Nothing suggests that their normal movement is teleportation. Just because they can teleport doesn't mean they do it all the time. That's like saying "Eladrin can teleport, so the must do it every time the move!"
There's a lot of confusion with this subclass, so I created a thread based on this topic for Explorer's Guide to Wildemount: Why you put subclasses and spells in UA
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I was wondering about the opportunity attack ability from the echo's location.
Would disengage work to prevent the reaction from the echo knight to get an opportunity attack? The ability calls a trigger of a creature moving out of 5 feet squares surrounding the echo.
Since the echo is an object and doesn't threaten the squares, which imho was what the disengage prevented in order for the opportunity attack to occur.
Does the echo knight still get to use the reaction for an opportunity attack while the target is disengaged?
I believe the intention would be that disengage still works the way disengage always works and would prevent the EK from getting an AoO through the echo. "Your movement doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn" seems a pretty blanket statement regardless how you're getting said opportunity attack.
If an echo knight wears Robe of Eyes then uses Echo Avatar, does it's Echo see all directions? If you have sight up to extraneous distances via feats/racials/items does your vision while viewing the world from your echo use this same view distance/capability?
@The_Humble_Giant From my understanding it's an "Image" of a past or future version of yourself here with you, so kind of like the Ghost guy in Shadow of Mordor, you attacking from your "Image" would be for a split second, your arm comes from him and does the attack you do from your body, replaced by it's arm, essentially it's an illusion that is so bonded to you that you are one with it :
If it were an object spells like Fireball would still effect it although without it having a TRUE form being an object is the closest approximation we can give it
If it were a true illusion then enemies could still perceive it as a target and it would be "considered" a creature
If it were a creature, it's not, just not :P
If you didn't call it an Illusion or an object you could just call it a Temporal Manifestation of yourself which could magically own it's own space but without RAW being announced it's up to the DM to decide whether it would be shoved or would be a static being (having an immovable rod manifestable at level 1 is a tad broken though so I'd assume it can be shoved/grappled as you can but why do that when you could just attack it and banish it for that round)