So with the release of Tasha's, I was looking at the Psi warrior and thought it was extremely cool and the fact it had a decent amount of uses for it's abilities made it even better. This led me to thinking that the Arcane Archer being as sad as it is, would benefit greatly from having the same kind of Resource pool as the Psi Warrior. Giving the Arcane Archer the resource pool of double their proficiency would definitely make this relatively unused subclass far more appealing in my opinion. Unlike the Psi Warrior though, the Arcane Archer's resource would not increase with it's level but be only the limit to the amount of Arcane Shots they take.
I would like to know everyone else's thoughts on this. Would giving Arcane Archer a resource pool similar to Psi Warrior make it too strong or would this make it much better subclass?
I think it would be good with equal to PB, this would still start you with 2 and grow to 6 while still being replenished on a short rest instead of long rest like the psi warrior.
2-6 on a long rest would be a fairly equivalent change, as long as you’re sticking to typical adventure days. Changing it to 2-6 on a short rest though is still vastly more powerful than you think.
Having any class/subclass ability linked to Proficiency Bonus in any way makes it rife for multiclass abuse. I am very, very much against the mechanic entirely. FYI, switching it from twice per Short Rest to Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest would actually be a nerf, just like it was for the Bladesinger.
Worrying about multiclass abuse is a giving oneself unnecessary stress. That being said, if you were to update Arcane Archer using the new deaign philosophy I'd personally go with "number of uses equal to PB per short or long rest". The Fighter in general is meant to be the class thats ready to throw down at almost any moment, so the abilities should, in most cases, reflect that. Plus, ranged Fighters don't typically have many options form magic bows and arrows and they don't have access to ranger spells so as a DM, I would give my players a chance to actually have fun with this class if they choose it.
That being said, if you were to update Arcane Archer using the new deaign philosophy I'd personally go with "number of uses equal to PB per short or long rest".
That would be obscenely broken. The Battle Master has to choose to use it before the attack is made, so they need the uses. The Arcane Archer gets to choose to use theirs after the hit (or crit!), so having that many uses would be stupid OP. Not to mention, they get the majority of their work done through Curving Shot. Giving them that many uses of Arcane Shot on top of that would be ridiculous.
The fact that you would suggest it is proof that you’ve never had a player use one of these in a campaign.
What are you talking about? The Battle Master can choose to spend a superiority die after they hit, they dont have to declare a use before then, so an Arcane Archer having the same capacity with a comparable number of uses is perfectly fine. You might want to double check your facts.
What are you talking about? The Battle Master can choose to spend a superiority die after they hit, they dont have to declare a use before then, so an Arcane Archer having the same capacity with a comparable number of uses is perfectly fine. You might want to double check your facts.
Only some of them can be used “when you hit,” the rest are not. And the Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as the Arcane Shots.
What are you talking about? The Battle Master can choose to spend a superiority die after they hit, they dont have to declare a use before then, so an Arcane Archer having the same capacity with a comparable number of uses is perfectly fine. You might want to double check your facts.
Only some of them can be used “when you hit,” the rest are not. And the Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as the Arcane Shots.
MOST of them can be used "when you hit" while the ones that don't provide different effects that activate immediately and thus require burning a superiority die. And with the inclusion of TCoE, the Battle Master received even more maneuvers that have applications both in and out of combat. The Arcane Archer would be comparable with this method but have a slower progression on the number of uses.
TakaiSakage. If you ultimately don't want to go with PB uses, consider going with a common change that a lot of tables use: "number of uses equal to your INT modifier". The benefits of this method are an increased number of uses if the player invests a decent amount of point into INT which in turn means a higher save DC, you'll also gain more uses sooner than if you used PB. Ultimately, do what feels right for your table if you are the DM and if you are the player consult with your DM about possibly tweaking the class.
A reasonable DM will be willing to hear you out and likely approve if you show a willingness to work with them. Speaking as a DM myself it's always nice to see lesser used subclasses so if my players feel underwhelmed by the Arcane Archer but express interest in playing it, I typically adjust it to be more viable and fun for them.
Short rest is fine too, let your players feel powerful. Ran the AA on short rests in the past and had no issues in making combat challenging even killed a PC at level 16.
I completely understand those who feel that 2 uses of Arcane Shot per Short Rest isn't enough, especially since it stays at 2 all the way to the end. Yes, they're more powerful than Battle Master maneuvers in many cases, but it does still feel like the AA just doesn't get enough to do. I also think that Curving Shot gets overlooked as a very useful ability. Getting to use your Bonus Action every turn to try and salvage a miss by re-rolling it against a different target can be awesome in fights against groups of enemies. But it's also not a very flashy ability, so it's still easy for the Arcane Archer to feel underwhelming. And the booster to the Arcane Shots doesn't kick in until Level 18. I think if they'd added the booster more incrementally it would have been better. They all add an even number of dice rolled for damage at Level 18. I would've loved to see a bonus of half that many dice somewhere in the mid-levels, and then get the full bonus later. As for the number of Arcane Shots, I'd say adding a third use per Short Rest somewhere around Level 10-13 would be good. Going to four uses per Short Rest feels a bit much.
If I'd been designing it from the ground up, I can think of a few ways I would've done it differently. First, I would've made the Save DC based on Int OR Wis, player's choice. It's clear they were trying to tie it to both High and Wood Elves by being able to choose Arcana or Nature, and Prestidigitation or Druidcraft. They should have continued that by letting the DC be based on either Int or Wis, just like the DC for Battlemasters can key off Str or Dex. Second, I think it would have been more interesting to base the Arcane Shots off a resource pool more akin to Ki or Sorcery Points, and give each Arcane Shot its own cost, just like Monk abilities and Metamagic. Certain Shots might be more powerful, but more costly to use. And then you could allow some Shots to be boosted by spending more resources, the way some Ki abilities are. Obviously it would've taken a lot more work to balance all that out, but I think it would've made for a much more interesting experience playing an AA than what we have now.
I actually like your idea of keying the DC save on either INT or WIS, I hadn't actually considered that before. But I don't particularly agree with the notion that the Arcane Shots are stronger than Battle Master Maneuvers. Don't get me wrong, the Arcane Shot options are great and if we compard an Arcane Archer to a Ranged Battle Master then sure, a strong argument can be made for the AA being better. But as good as the AA abilities are, they are also very limited.
The most glaring point about the AA's abilities is that they must be done with either a shortbow or longbow, and not a crossbow. That already eliminates avenues that the BM still has available to them. Then you can only use one Arcane Shot per turn, whereas the BM can pump maneuvers outs with every hit or with a bonus action...or with a reaction. And most of these allow you to stack damage ON TOP of whatever else they allow you to do.
And when you consider magic items and feats...there really is no contest. Its unfortunate but there more incentive to be a melee BM than there is to be an AA. Hell, I'd even say that A BM with a heavy crossbow, Bracers of Archery, Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert can arguably perform better and more often than an AA with a longbow, Bracers and Sharpshooter even if you gave them more uses.
I actually like your idea of keying the DC save on either INT or WIS, I hadn't actually considered that before. But I don't particularly agree with the notion that the Arcane Shots are stronger than Battle Master Maneuvers. Don't get me wrong, the Arcane Shot options are great and if we compard an Arcane Archer to a Ranged Battle Master then sure, a strong argument can be made for the AA being better. But as good as the AA abilities are, they are also very limited.
The most glaring point about the AA's abilities is that they must be done with either a shortbow or longbow, and not a crossbow. That already eliminates avenues that the BM still has available to them. Then you can only use one Arcane Shot per turn, whereas the BM can pump maneuvers outs with every hit or with a bonus action...or with a reaction. And most of these allow you to stack damage ON TOP of whatever else they allow you to do.
And when you consider magic items and feats...there really is no contest. Its unfortunate but there more incentive to be a melee BM than there is to be an AA. Hell, I'd even say that A BM with a heavy crossbow, Bracers of Archery, Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert can arguably perform better and more often than an AA with a longbow, Bracers and Sharpshooter even if you gave them more uses.
Actually, to get the most out of the ranged BM, I prefer to skit Crossbow Expert and use the Longbow anyway. The range is better, it doesn’t eat the extra feat, and the damage drop off from 1d10 to 1d8 is so minimal you never notice it. Crossbows are cool, but unless you plan on going shorter range with the hand crossbow for the extra shot per turn, the longbow makes for a better sniper Battle Master.
Taking another feat is no huge loss for a Fighter and one wouldn't need the bonus attack anyway, thats just a nice side benefit though I typically house that the BA attack applies even to two handed crossbows because the difference is hardly noteworthy in my eyes.
I've been trying to think of different options because the 2 shots only thing is very small compared to other abilities. People say that AA is powerful but compared to some of the other Fighter options, such as the Psi Warrior with their massive resource pool, it is very lacking. And unlike the Psi Warrior or even the Battle Master, who's resource progressively gets stronger as they level up in their Fighter class, AA stays constant until they get to level 18.
I've played an AA before and hated the idea that I had so few shots even when I got to level 10 and higher. I mean you can get into multiple fights and while you are still a fighter and can make the multiple attacks every turn, the fact that you are limited to 2 uses of your main archetype ability is sad. From what I understand this is the main gripe about the Arcane Archer. Other than that it seems like a fantastic class.
While I think that getting double Prof per long rest maybe too much, I would like to figure out some kind of progression thing that would make this a better options for those that want to play the cool Spell Archer without having to become the much disliked Ranger.
Curving Arrow. It’s one of the most potent skills out there, upping your damage output by an incredible amount, especially noticeable with skills like Sharpshooter. Unfortunately, most players don’t notice it because it’s just another chance to roll the dice and hit so it gets ignored when looking at total damage output. Last time I wrote a program to evaluate this one I think it added a full hit per round.
On-hit damage. The damage of the Arcane Shots are applied immediately regardless of saves. That means you can hold off on using the Arcane Shots for critical hits, guaranteeing 4d6 damage each time they’re used.
Grasping, Shadow, Banishing. Three of the most potent abilities in the game. Grasping doesn’t care if you’re flying, completely impedes low-Str targets. Shadow gives every single attack you use Advantage on a Wisdom save fail, guaranteeing some devastating damage. Banishing is one of the few shots that almost guarantees that a Cleric, Wizard or Druid will lose concentration with a failed Charisma save.
Curving Arrow. It’s one of the most potent skills out there, upping your damage output by an incredible amount, especially noticeable with skills like Sharpshooter. Unfortunately, most players don’t notice it because it’s just another chance to roll the dice and hit so it gets ignored when looking at total damage output. Last time I wrote a program to evaluate this one I think it added a full hit per round.
On-hit damage. The damage of the Arcane Shots are applied immediately regardless of saves. That means you can hold off on using the Arcane Shots for critical hits, guaranteeing 4d6 damage each time they’re used.
Grasping, Shadow, Banishing. Three of the most potent abilities in the game. Grasping doesn’t care if you’re flying, completely impedes low-Str targets. Shadow gives every single attack you use Advantage on a Wisdom save fail, guaranteeing some devastating damage. Banishing is one of the few shots that almost guarantees that a Cleric, Wizard or Druid will lose concentration with a failed Charisma save.
Curving Arrow is a good ability, I wouldn't call it one of the most potent skills, but it does have value. While this is important part of the Arcane Archer's skill set it doesn't off set the low amount of uses for the Arcane Shot. Curving Shot can only be used on a miss, it requires a bonus action and if there are no other targets within the required range, then it doesn't really do anything. A good ability, not game breaking and not one of the most potent skills in the game. A good second chance shot if you happen to miss a target.
You are correct that Arcane Arrows do guaranteed damage on hits, but so does a Paladin's smite, a Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike, Rune Knight's Giant Might, the Battle Master's Battle Maneuvers and so on. To state that the reason an Arcane Archer should not be allowed more shots is because it's guaranteed additional damage on hit is not a founded case just based on several other classes that do the exact same thing, all of which get far more resources to use their abilities than the Arcane Archer.
I sincerely believe you need to redefine what you consider "most potent abilities" if you're naming these three as among the top. They're good, they are, but that doesn't make them the most potent. Grasping is indeed powerful, but there are several other abilities just like it. Banishing is good and all, but it only lasts for a single Round if they fail their save, so in the end not that potent though it can have a good affect on a battle. Then Shadow shot again only lasts one round if they fail the save and has not affect on their melee capabilities as they can still see anyone within 5 feet of them.
So again, I believe the Arcane archer would do well with an increased resource pool, how much exactly and when they regain the resource couple be up for debate, but they definitely need more uses of their Arcane Shot to allow them to stand on par with other Archetypes in the Fighter Class alone.
So with the release of Tasha's, I was looking at the Psi warrior and thought it was extremely cool and the fact it had a decent amount of uses for it's abilities made it even better. This led me to thinking that the Arcane Archer being as sad as it is, would benefit greatly from having the same kind of Resource pool as the Psi Warrior. Giving the Arcane Archer the resource pool of double their proficiency would definitely make this relatively unused subclass far more appealing in my opinion. Unlike the Psi Warrior though, the Arcane Archer's resource would not increase with it's level but be only the limit to the amount of Arcane Shots they take.
I would like to know everyone else's thoughts on this. Would giving Arcane Archer a resource pool similar to Psi Warrior make it too strong or would this make it much better subclass?
I think it would be good with equal to PB, this would still start you with 2 and grow to 6 while still being replenished on a short rest instead of long rest like the psi warrior.
2-6 on a long rest would be a fairly equivalent change, as long as you’re sticking to typical adventure days. Changing it to 2-6 on a short rest though is still vastly more powerful than you think.
Having any class/subclass ability linked to Proficiency Bonus in any way makes it rife for multiclass abuse. I am very, very much against the mechanic entirely. FYI, switching it from twice per Short Rest to Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest would actually be a nerf, just like it was for the Bladesinger.
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Worrying about multiclass abuse is a giving oneself unnecessary stress. That being said, if you were to update Arcane Archer using the new deaign philosophy I'd personally go with "number of uses equal to PB per short or long rest". The Fighter in general is meant to be the class thats ready to throw down at almost any moment, so the abilities should, in most cases, reflect that. Plus, ranged Fighters don't typically have many options form magic bows and arrows and they don't have access to ranger spells so as a DM, I would give my players a chance to actually have fun with this class if they choose it.
That would be obscenely broken. The Battle Master has to choose to use it before the attack is made, so they need the uses. The Arcane Archer gets to choose to use theirs after the hit (or crit!), so having that many uses would be stupid OP. Not to mention, they get the majority of their work done through Curving Shot. Giving them that many uses of Arcane Shot on top of that would be ridiculous.
The fact that you would suggest it is proof that you’ve never had a player use one of these in a campaign.
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What are you talking about? The Battle Master can choose to spend a superiority die after they hit, they dont have to declare a use before then, so an Arcane Archer having the same capacity with a comparable number of uses is perfectly fine. You might want to double check your facts.
Only some of them can be used “when you hit,” the rest are not. And the Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as the Arcane Shots.
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MOST of them can be used "when you hit" while the ones that don't provide different effects that activate immediately and thus require burning a superiority die. And with the inclusion of TCoE, the Battle Master received even more maneuvers that have applications both in and out of combat. The Arcane Archer would be comparable with this method but have a slower progression on the number of uses.
TakaiSakage. If you ultimately don't want to go with PB uses, consider going with a common change that a lot of tables use: "number of uses equal to your INT modifier". The benefits of this method are an increased number of uses if the player invests a decent amount of point into INT which in turn means a higher save DC, you'll also gain more uses sooner than if you used PB. Ultimately, do what feels right for your table if you are the DM and if you are the player consult with your DM about possibly tweaking the class.
A reasonable DM will be willing to hear you out and likely approve if you show a willingness to work with them. Speaking as a DM myself it's always nice to see lesser used subclasses so if my players feel underwhelmed by the Arcane Archer but express interest in playing it, I typically adjust it to be more viable and fun for them.
I also allow Int mod (actually Int mod +1), but per LR, not SR.
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Short rest is fine too, let your players feel powerful. Ran the AA on short rests in the past and had no issues in making combat challenging even killed a PC at level 16.
I completely understand those who feel that 2 uses of Arcane Shot per Short Rest isn't enough, especially since it stays at 2 all the way to the end. Yes, they're more powerful than Battle Master maneuvers in many cases, but it does still feel like the AA just doesn't get enough to do. I also think that Curving Shot gets overlooked as a very useful ability. Getting to use your Bonus Action every turn to try and salvage a miss by re-rolling it against a different target can be awesome in fights against groups of enemies. But it's also not a very flashy ability, so it's still easy for the Arcane Archer to feel underwhelming. And the booster to the Arcane Shots doesn't kick in until Level 18. I think if they'd added the booster more incrementally it would have been better. They all add an even number of dice rolled for damage at Level 18. I would've loved to see a bonus of half that many dice somewhere in the mid-levels, and then get the full bonus later. As for the number of Arcane Shots, I'd say adding a third use per Short Rest somewhere around Level 10-13 would be good. Going to four uses per Short Rest feels a bit much.
If I'd been designing it from the ground up, I can think of a few ways I would've done it differently. First, I would've made the Save DC based on Int OR Wis, player's choice. It's clear they were trying to tie it to both High and Wood Elves by being able to choose Arcana or Nature, and Prestidigitation or Druidcraft. They should have continued that by letting the DC be based on either Int or Wis, just like the DC for Battlemasters can key off Str or Dex. Second, I think it would have been more interesting to base the Arcane Shots off a resource pool more akin to Ki or Sorcery Points, and give each Arcane Shot its own cost, just like Monk abilities and Metamagic. Certain Shots might be more powerful, but more costly to use. And then you could allow some Shots to be boosted by spending more resources, the way some Ki abilities are. Obviously it would've taken a lot more work to balance all that out, but I think it would've made for a much more interesting experience playing an AA than what we have now.
I personally fixed the issue by making a mana potion. Drink and restore uses.
I actually like your idea of keying the DC save on either INT or WIS, I hadn't actually considered that before. But I don't particularly agree with the notion that the Arcane Shots are stronger than Battle Master Maneuvers. Don't get me wrong, the Arcane Shot options are great and if we compard an Arcane Archer to a Ranged Battle Master then sure, a strong argument can be made for the AA being better. But as good as the AA abilities are, they are also very limited.
The most glaring point about the AA's abilities is that they must be done with either a shortbow or longbow, and not a crossbow. That already eliminates avenues that the BM still has available to them. Then you can only use one Arcane Shot per turn, whereas the BM can pump maneuvers outs with every hit or with a bonus action...or with a reaction. And most of these allow you to stack damage ON TOP of whatever else they allow you to do.
And when you consider magic items and feats...there really is no contest. Its unfortunate but there more incentive to be a melee BM than there is to be an AA. Hell, I'd even say that A BM with a heavy crossbow, Bracers of Archery, Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert can arguably perform better and more often than an AA with a longbow, Bracers and Sharpshooter even if you gave them more uses.
Actually, to get the most out of the ranged BM, I prefer to skit Crossbow Expert and use the Longbow anyway. The range is better, it doesn’t eat the extra feat, and the damage drop off from 1d10 to 1d8 is so minimal you never notice it. Crossbows are cool, but unless you plan on going shorter range with the hand crossbow for the extra shot per turn, the longbow makes for a better sniper Battle Master.
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Taking another feat is no huge loss for a Fighter and one wouldn't need the bonus attack anyway, thats just a nice side benefit though I typically house that the BA attack applies even to two handed crossbows because the difference is hardly noteworthy in my eyes.
I've been trying to think of different options because the 2 shots only thing is very small compared to other abilities. People say that AA is powerful but compared to some of the other Fighter options, such as the Psi Warrior with their massive resource pool, it is very lacking. And unlike the Psi Warrior or even the Battle Master, who's resource progressively gets stronger as they level up in their Fighter class, AA stays constant until they get to level 18.
I've played an AA before and hated the idea that I had so few shots even when I got to level 10 and higher. I mean you can get into multiple fights and while you are still a fighter and can make the multiple attacks every turn, the fact that you are limited to 2 uses of your main archetype ability is sad. From what I understand this is the main gripe about the Arcane Archer. Other than that it seems like a fantastic class.
While I think that getting double Prof per long rest maybe too much, I would like to figure out some kind of progression thing that would make this a better options for those that want to play the cool Spell Archer without having to become the much disliked Ranger.
There are a couple of issues:
Curving Arrow. It’s one of the most potent skills out there, upping your damage output by an incredible amount, especially noticeable with skills like Sharpshooter. Unfortunately, most players don’t notice it because it’s just another chance to roll the dice and hit so it gets ignored when looking at total damage output. Last time I wrote a program to evaluate this one I think it added a full hit per round.
On-hit damage. The damage of the Arcane Shots are applied immediately regardless of saves. That means you can hold off on using the Arcane Shots for critical hits, guaranteeing 4d6 damage each time they’re used.
Grasping, Shadow, Banishing. Three of the most potent abilities in the game. Grasping doesn’t care if you’re flying, completely impedes low-Str targets. Shadow gives every single attack you use Advantage on a Wisdom save fail, guaranteeing some devastating damage. Banishing is one of the few shots that almost guarantees that a Cleric, Wizard or Druid will lose concentration with a failed Charisma save.
Curving Arrow is a good ability, I wouldn't call it one of the most potent skills, but it does have value. While this is important part of the Arcane Archer's skill set it doesn't off set the low amount of uses for the Arcane Shot. Curving Shot can only be used on a miss, it requires a bonus action and if there are no other targets within the required range, then it doesn't really do anything. A good ability, not game breaking and not one of the most potent skills in the game. A good second chance shot if you happen to miss a target.
You are correct that Arcane Arrows do guaranteed damage on hits, but so does a Paladin's smite, a Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike, Rune Knight's Giant Might, the Battle Master's Battle Maneuvers and so on. To state that the reason an Arcane Archer should not be allowed more shots is because it's guaranteed additional damage on hit is not a founded case just based on several other classes that do the exact same thing, all of which get far more resources to use their abilities than the Arcane Archer.
I sincerely believe you need to redefine what you consider "most potent abilities" if you're naming these three as among the top. They're good, they are, but that doesn't make them the most potent. Grasping is indeed powerful, but there are several other abilities just like it. Banishing is good and all, but it only lasts for a single Round if they fail their save, so in the end not that potent though it can have a good affect on a battle. Then Shadow shot again only lasts one round if they fail the save and has not affect on their melee capabilities as they can still see anyone within 5 feet of them.
So again, I believe the Arcane archer would do well with an increased resource pool, how much exactly and when they regain the resource couple be up for debate, but they definitely need more uses of their Arcane Shot to allow them to stand on par with other Archetypes in the Fighter Class alone.
In my groups games we gave them a 3rd arrow at level 10 and we fell it works much better.