We *might make it to level 10 or 11. Right now the plan is to get to 7 EK for the extra attack with cantrips, and maybe after that go back to wiz, for however long the campaign lasts. Much of the utility of the wizard side of things is simply in having lots of spell slots for shield (=HP) for longer fights and adventuring days.
I think EK is definitely one of the better fighters at higher levels. You have access to haste, misty step, arcane charge, and shield. I personally play my EK sans SCAG-trips or warcaster, instead choosing to build typically with a belt, sentinel, PAM, and GWM early on, then increasing con for the saves. at tier 3, being able to attack five times a turn while haste is active is so much fun.
a BM could only dream to have the level of mobility that an EK gets. Though, my guess as to why EK isn't widely regarded as one of the best is because in all honesty EK only starts to show off its advantages into the later half or tier 3 with haste and arcane charge, and attacking with a SCAG-trip and a BA isn't that impressive prior to that point. If most campaigns end prior at around lvl 12, then there's a lot of reason why people would think BM is the best fighter, all those maneuvers are impactful and useful, and their lackluster later benefits have no impact if you never even get there to begin with.
Maybe it's my fault for playing a MToF race in historic and playing without SCAG-trips, but EK pretty much felt like nothing more than a fighter with access to shield and a pet for a long time until you get the other cool spells that increase mobility. It's hardly "eldritch."
Samurai and EK I'd say stronger than BM at later levels, though all 3 would be the strongest fighters in my opinion.
cgarciao, Eldritch Knight barely made it on my power list for the very reason you say its so good. EK is only really powerful at higher levels. It has a long gestation period where its spells are far less flashy than other subclasses early abilities. It's never bad, but it's super poweful either and I give substantially more value to what a subclass plays like 1-12 than 13-20. Same with Samurai for me. You're really ability starved at early levels. You just don't get much to play with much compared to other ability rich subs.
Here are the best three in terms of mechanics, IMO:
Battlemaster: The new maneuvers and fighting styles in Tasha's just bump this subclass even more into the top tier of fighter subclasses. Superiority Dice are extremely useful and increase your damage a lot, and they come back on short rests.
Rune Knight: Oh, boy. This subclass is great. It got some heavy nerfs from the UA version, but most of those were much needed, and it wasn't nerfed into the ground (like some other things in Tasha's). Every Rune Knight should choose the Fire and Cloud Runes ASAP. Fire Rune gives you an extremely potent damaging ability once a short rest that deals a lot of fire damage and puts a huge nerf on one target. The Cloud Rune lets you teleport attacks once a short rest, potentially allowing you to deal a lot more damage and negate a lot of enemy damage.
Echo Knight: This is a great subclass, but I feel that the Battlemaster and Rune Knight are a bit better. It is completely dependent on the DM actually knowing what the heck the subclass does RAW, and also needs the character to know how to play this subclass in the most effective way. However, if played correctly and well, an Echo Knight can be a serious boon to the party.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The best Fighter subclass is the one you enjoy play the most.
I think this is an entirely wholesome opinion, but it's like empty calories when the thread's purpose is to discuss personal opinions, where we get to act as salesmen for our favorite sub-classes. That said, it's hard to fault saying "it's the one you like best" because the fighter chassis is just that effective.
If someone came up to me and said "Bro, Champion is one of the best cause you slap on a spell storing ring with Holy Weapon, with a blackrazor, you crit like crazy," I'd nod my head in agreement because such a combo is effective, even while talking about a subclass that gets heavily trash talked due to lack of active options.
I think this is an entirely wholesome opinion, but it's like empty calories when the thread's purpose is to discuss personal opinions, where we get to act as salesmen for our favorite sub-classes. That said, it's hard to fault saying "it's the one you like best" because the fighter chassis is just that effective.
Happy to see you feel similarly about the rune knight and more specifically the runes. Any consideration for Stone in your mind? 120 darkvision is probably the best passive among the unleveled runes and insight is a super underrated skill. And then there's the invocation that is a powerful if risky incapacitation. Obviously goes way down for any RK with natural darkvision, but I think it should be considered at least.
cgarciao, Eldritch Knight barely made it on my power list for the very reason you say its so good. EK is only really powerful at higher levels. It has a long gestation period where its spells are far less flashy than other subclasses early abilities. It's never bad, but it's super poweful either and I give substantially more value to what a subclass plays like 1-12 than 13-20. Same with Samurai for me. You're really ability starved at early levels. You just don't get much to play with much compared to other ability rich subs.
I would offer that's an artifact of your build. EK can have some of the most punishing OA in the game using warcaster to cast boomingblade or greenflame blade. Using PAM and a spear or quarterstaff, you can get those with regularity too, since it comes online at level 4 if you wish it so.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The best Fighter subclass is the one you enjoy play the most.
I think this is an entirely wholesome opinion, but it's like empty calories when the thread's purpose is to discuss personal opinions, where we get to act as salesmen for our favorite sub-classes. That said, it's hard to fault saying "it's the one you like best" because the fighter chassis is just that effective.
If someone came up to me and said "Bro, Champion is one of the best cause you slap on a spell storing ring with Holy Weapon, with a blackrazor, you crit like crazy," I'd nod my head in agreement because such a combo is effective, even while talking about a subclass that gets heavily trash talked due to lack of active options.
Okay, then IMHO, the best Fighter Subclass is the UA Psi Knight with UA Feats Wild Talent (Strength) and Telekinetic (Intelligence). You never really run out of fun things to do in or out of combat.
I would offer that's an artifact of your build. EK can have some of the most punishing OA in the game using warcaster to cast boomingblade or greenflame blade. Using PAM and a spear or quarterstaff, you can get those with regularity too, since it comes online at level 4 if you wish it so.
No, I know exactly what a PAM EK is. That build doesn't get anything online any faster than any other fighter. The point about EK having a slow build up is that the spells take a long time to mature. And those are the crux of what makes an EK truly unique. Sure the PAM EK has the most punishing OA, but it cost two feats. The Battle Master gets OA's that are similar enough in strength through maneuvers, and then can spend those feat slots on whatever they want.
PAM EK's are some dangerous mothers. I didn't put the EK at 3 on my list for no reason. But this is a comparison of the best and in my eyes the Battle Master and Echo Knight both beat out the EK for their own reasons.
Battle Master: I think the BM already had this, but now has a plethora of new maneuvers. Maneuvers scale much more favorably than the EK's spells until 3rd level spells at 13. And even once the EK reaches 13 and finally gets 3rd level spells, it is a very limited resource, making it take a while longer to really usurp maneuvers as the better tool. So if this is a who's best at the endgame then sure EK takes it. But like I've said before those levels just mean so much less to me because of how infrequently they're played. The BM can accomplish most anything the EK can through maneuver choices, has the more plentiful resource and has more options than the EK for most of its career.
Echo Knight: I think the Echo Knight bests the EK, but it's hard to quantify because they do very different things. But I'll try. I think that the Echo Knight's unmatched, resource free mobility ends up equating to an untold amount of extra damage as it becomes effortless to always be in the right spot to land your attacks. Very few at-will abilities have as much raw power and tactical implications as the Echo. The Echo's uses extend beyond combat and the class even gets a tool (unleash incarnation) to be able to super-nova once in while.
Let me be clear. If this was a contest for best fighter sub at levels 17+, EK would take it. An Eldritch Knight with 3-4 attacks, 2x action surge and 4th level spells is something to behold. It certainly helped EK nudge into my top 3 over the Rune Knight, but in the end didn't factor in enough to beat out the Battle Master and Echo Knight who mature earlier and stay stronger for most of their career.
The Eldritch Knight doesn't really draw my attention because the main selling point is what turns me off as a player and DM. I personally don't like magic the way its incorporated in the the subclass. In my experience as DM and player, spellcasters tend to bog down play because they worry about their precious spell slots or finding the perfect spell for every specific occurrence and while I can exactly fault them for this, it's nonetheless something that clashes with the philosophy of the Fighter. Fighters are the Action Hero, ready to act at practically any moment and their abilities should reflect that even if they are supernatural nature or origin. That's why I enjoy The Rune and Echo Knights so much more as "spellsword" archetypes than the EK.
Sounds like your spellcasters need to be put on a timer. A properly played caster doesn't bog down combat anymore than a martial (unless you're a necromancer or other dedicated summoner). But it takes preparation and class familiarity. No one should be taking an overly long time at the table to take their turn. It's about snappy decision making that promotes a brisk, exciting pace of action. The learning curve is certainly higher on a caster so they get a bad reputation as slowing game-play. But it's the players slowing the action, not the spells, unless you're dealing with the extreme examples spells with ridiculous amounts of action economy attached.
Happy to see you feel similarly about the rune knight and more specifically the runes. Any consideration for Stone in your mind? 120 darkvision is probably the best passive among the unleveled runes and insight is a super underrated skill. And then there's the invocation that is a powerful if risky incapacitation. Obviously goes way down for any RK with natural darkvision, but I think it should be considered at least.
Stone is okay, I specifically called out Fire and Cloud because they're a bit more potent (neither require a saving throw and deal more damage). I was strictly talking about the runes that would increase your damage output at lower levels. If a Rune Knight doesn't care about doing the most damage possible, but more about battlefield control, they should definitely strongly consider that rune.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The Eldritch Knight doesn't really draw my attention because the main selling point is what turns me off as a player and DM. I personally don't like magic the way its incorporated in the the subclass. In my experience as DM and player, spellcasters tend to bog down play because they worry about their precious spell slots or finding the perfect spell for every specific occurrence and while I can exactly fault them for this, it's nonetheless something that clashes with the philosophy of the Fighter. Fighters are the Action Hero, ready to act at practically any moment and their abilities should reflect that even if they are supernatural nature or origin. That's why I enjoy The Rune and Echo Knights so much more as "spellsword" archetypes than the EK.
I completely agree with this. Eldritch Knights can be pretty good damage dealers and tanks, but it relies heavily on what spells the character takes, and their action economy is always an issue.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The Eldritch Knight doesn't really draw my attention because the main selling point is what turns me off as a player and DM. I personally don't like magic the way its incorporated in the the subclass. In my experience as DM and player, spellcasters tend to bog down play because they worry about their precious spell slots or finding the perfect spell for every specific occurrence and while I can exactly fault them for this, it's nonetheless something that clashes with the philosophy of the Fighter. Fighters are the Action Hero, ready to act at practically any moment and their abilities should reflect that even if they are supernatural nature or origin. That's why I enjoy The Rune and Echo Knights so much more as "spellsword" archetypes than the EK.
I completely agree with this. Eldritch Knights can be pretty good damage dealers and tanks, but it relies heavily on what spells the character takes, and their action economy is always an issue.
I don't know if I'd claim action economy as an issue. Fact of the matter is there are so few spells that can be realistically taken up and used at any given moment during combat, especially if you avoid the pit trap of increasing int.
As an EK, your choices realistically are as follows: Attack with a SCAG-trip, cast a concentration buff that'll last the whole encounter, or simply attack. Outside of that, you might choose to use your reaction for shield, or command your pet for the help action, neither of which require much thought or bog down a player's turn. a BM has more thought required as to what they'll do in any given situation. Will they use their superiority die for that missed attack? Should they disarm the enemy mage or the martial? commander's strike for the rogue? Yet their options don't slow combat down, so I see no reason as to why we should say that for the EK.
ik im a little late in saying this but in my opinion the Rune Knight and Champion subclasses are the best. Rune knight is just really fun to play and has a pretty good amount of features and champion doesnt have as many things it adds but what it does add is really good. for example it lets u get a critical roll on less then a 20.
ik im a little late in saying this but in my opinion the Rune Knight and Champion subclasses are the best. Rune knight is just really fun to play and has a pretty good amount of features and champion doesnt have as many things it adds but what it does add is really good. for example it lets u get a critical roll on less then a 20.
The champion's improved crit range is actually one of the weakest 3rd level abilities of any fighter subclass, but it feels good for chasing crits.
ik im a little late in saying this but in my opinion the Rune Knight and Champion subclasses are the best. Rune knight is just really fun to play and has a pretty good amount of features and champion doesnt have as many things it adds but what it does add is really good. for example it lets u get a critical roll on less then a 20.
The champion's improved crit range is actually one of the weakest 3rd level abilities of any fighter subclass, but it feels good for chasing crits.
That’s only because it’s considered in a vacuum. Which of course, the champion Subclass is because it has no synergy with its own features. It’s actually one of the better three level dips for Multiclassing with classes such as Barbarian, Paladin, or Rogue. By increasing the current range from 20 to 19+, it is quite literally a 100% increase in the number of Crits the character will make over their career.
There isn’t a weapon attacker in the game that can’t benefit from at least one of the available Fighting Styles. Even with only three Fighter levels, Second Wind is statistically better than a free potion of healing every short rest. Action Surge is arguably one of the more powerful Tier-1 features in the game. Da Champ may not have anything inherent to them that actually takes advantage of the 100% increase in Crits, but with features like Brutal Critical, Divine Smite, and Sneak Attack that can take full advantage of the bump, those classes all make out fairly well with Improved Critical added to their arsenals. Heck, Improved Critical can even possibly help the Divine Strikers in the Cleric camp better than it helps Da Champ all alone.
We *might make it to level 10 or 11. Right now the plan is to get to 7 EK for the extra attack with cantrips, and maybe after that go back to wiz, for however long the campaign lasts. Much of the utility of the wizard side of things is simply in having lots of spell slots for shield (=HP) for longer fights and adventuring days.
I think EK is definitely one of the better fighters at higher levels. You have access to haste, misty step, arcane charge, and shield. I personally play my EK sans SCAG-trips or warcaster, instead choosing to build typically with a belt, sentinel, PAM, and GWM early on, then increasing con for the saves. at tier 3, being able to attack five times a turn while haste is active is so much fun.
a BM could only dream to have the level of mobility that an EK gets. Though, my guess as to why EK isn't widely regarded as one of the best is because in all honesty EK only starts to show off its advantages into the later half or tier 3 with haste and arcane charge, and attacking with a SCAG-trip and a BA isn't that impressive prior to that point. If most campaigns end prior at around lvl 12, then there's a lot of reason why people would think BM is the best fighter, all those maneuvers are impactful and useful, and their lackluster later benefits have no impact if you never even get there to begin with.
Maybe it's my fault for playing a MToF race in historic and playing without SCAG-trips, but EK pretty much felt like nothing more than a fighter with access to shield and a pet for a long time until you get the other cool spells that increase mobility. It's hardly "eldritch."
Samurai and EK I'd say stronger than BM at later levels, though all 3 would be the strongest fighters in my opinion.
cgarciao, Eldritch Knight barely made it on my power list for the very reason you say its so good. EK is only really powerful at higher levels. It has a long gestation period where its spells are far less flashy than other subclasses early abilities. It's never bad, but it's super poweful either and I give substantially more value to what a subclass plays like 1-12 than 13-20. Same with Samurai for me. You're really ability starved at early levels. You just don't get much to play with much compared to other ability rich subs.
The best Fighter subclass is the one you enjoy play the most.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Here are the best three in terms of mechanics, IMO:
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I think this is an entirely wholesome opinion, but it's like empty calories when the thread's purpose is to discuss personal opinions, where we get to act as salesmen for our favorite sub-classes. That said, it's hard to fault saying "it's the one you like best" because the fighter chassis is just that effective.
If someone came up to me and said "Bro, Champion is one of the best cause you slap on a spell storing ring with Holy Weapon, with a blackrazor, you crit like crazy," I'd nod my head in agreement because such a combo is effective, even while talking about a subclass that gets heavily trash talked due to lack of active options.
Such grace. I applaud your gentle touch.
Third_Sundering
Happy to see you feel similarly about the rune knight and more specifically the runes. Any consideration for Stone in your mind? 120 darkvision is probably the best passive among the unleveled runes and insight is a super underrated skill. And then there's the invocation that is a powerful if risky incapacitation. Obviously goes way down for any RK with natural darkvision, but I think it should be considered at least.
I would offer that's an artifact of your build. EK can have some of the most punishing OA in the game using warcaster to cast boomingblade or greenflame blade. Using PAM and a spear or quarterstaff, you can get those with regularity too, since it comes online at level 4 if you wish it so.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Okay, then IMHO, the best Fighter Subclass is the UA Psi Knight with UA Feats Wild Talent (Strength) and Telekinetic (Intelligence). You never really run out of fun things to do in or out of combat.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
No, I know exactly what a PAM EK is. That build doesn't get anything online any faster than any other fighter. The point about EK having a slow build up is that the spells take a long time to mature. And those are the crux of what makes an EK truly unique. Sure the PAM EK has the most punishing OA, but it cost two feats. The Battle Master gets OA's that are similar enough in strength through maneuvers, and then can spend those feat slots on whatever they want.
PAM EK's are some dangerous mothers. I didn't put the EK at 3 on my list for no reason. But this is a comparison of the best and in my eyes the Battle Master and Echo Knight both beat out the EK for their own reasons.
Battle Master: I think the BM already had this, but now has a plethora of new maneuvers. Maneuvers scale much more favorably than the EK's spells until 3rd level spells at 13. And even once the EK reaches 13 and finally gets 3rd level spells, it is a very limited resource, making it take a while longer to really usurp maneuvers as the better tool. So if this is a who's best at the endgame then sure EK takes it. But like I've said before those levels just mean so much less to me because of how infrequently they're played. The BM can accomplish most anything the EK can through maneuver choices, has the more plentiful resource and has more options than the EK for most of its career.
Echo Knight: I think the Echo Knight bests the EK, but it's hard to quantify because they do very different things. But I'll try. I think that the Echo Knight's unmatched, resource free mobility ends up equating to an untold amount of extra damage as it becomes effortless to always be in the right spot to land your attacks. Very few at-will abilities have as much raw power and tactical implications as the Echo. The Echo's uses extend beyond combat and the class even gets a tool (unleash incarnation) to be able to super-nova once in while.
Let me be clear. If this was a contest for best fighter sub at levels 17+, EK would take it. An Eldritch Knight with 3-4 attacks, 2x action surge and 4th level spells is something to behold. It certainly helped EK nudge into my top 3 over the Rune Knight, but in the end didn't factor in enough to beat out the Battle Master and Echo Knight who mature earlier and stay stronger for most of their career.
The Eldritch Knight doesn't really draw my attention because the main selling point is what turns me off as a player and DM. I personally don't like magic the way its incorporated in the the subclass. In my experience as DM and player, spellcasters tend to bog down play because they worry about their precious spell slots or finding the perfect spell for every specific occurrence and while I can exactly fault them for this, it's nonetheless something that clashes with the philosophy of the Fighter. Fighters are the Action Hero, ready to act at practically any moment and their abilities should reflect that even if they are supernatural nature or origin. That's why I enjoy The Rune and Echo Knights so much more as "spellsword" archetypes than the EK.
Sounds like your spellcasters need to be put on a timer. A properly played caster doesn't bog down combat anymore than a martial (unless you're a necromancer or other dedicated summoner). But it takes preparation and class familiarity. No one should be taking an overly long time at the table to take their turn. It's about snappy decision making that promotes a brisk, exciting pace of action. The learning curve is certainly higher on a caster so they get a bad reputation as slowing game-play. But it's the players slowing the action, not the spells, unless you're dealing with the extreme examples spells with ridiculous amounts of action economy attached.
Stone is okay, I specifically called out Fire and Cloud because they're a bit more potent (neither require a saving throw and deal more damage). I was strictly talking about the runes that would increase your damage output at lower levels. If a Rune Knight doesn't care about doing the most damage possible, but more about battlefield control, they should definitely strongly consider that rune.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I completely agree with this. Eldritch Knights can be pretty good damage dealers and tanks, but it relies heavily on what spells the character takes, and their action economy is always an issue.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Awesome. Agreed on all accounts. Cloud and Fire also happen to turn you into half a rogue. Love the Rune Knight.
Storm rune is my vote for 7th level rune. So much fate manipulation. It even combos with Fire to give them disadvantage on their save.
I personally would choose the Hill Rune for level 7, as it gives you a lot of more tanking power, but to each their own.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I don't know if I'd claim action economy as an issue. Fact of the matter is there are so few spells that can be realistically taken up and used at any given moment during combat, especially if you avoid the pit trap of increasing int.
As an EK, your choices realistically are as follows: Attack with a SCAG-trip, cast a concentration buff that'll last the whole encounter, or simply attack. Outside of that, you might choose to use your reaction for shield, or command your pet for the help action, neither of which require much thought or bog down a player's turn. a BM has more thought required as to what they'll do in any given situation. Will they use their superiority die for that missed attack? Should they disarm the enemy mage or the martial? commander's strike for the rogue? Yet their options don't slow combat down, so I see no reason as to why we should say that for the EK.
ik im a little late in saying this but in my opinion the Rune Knight and Champion subclasses are the best. Rune knight is just really fun to play and has a pretty good amount of features and champion doesnt have as many things it adds but what it does add is really good. for example it lets u get a critical roll on less then a 20.
The champion's improved crit range is actually one of the weakest 3rd level abilities of any fighter subclass, but it feels good for chasing crits.
That’s only because it’s considered in a vacuum. Which of course, the champion Subclass is because it has no synergy with its own features. It’s actually one of the better three level dips for Multiclassing with classes such as Barbarian, Paladin, or Rogue. By increasing the current range from 20 to 19+, it is quite literally a 100% increase in the number of Crits the character will make over their career.
There isn’t a weapon attacker in the game that can’t benefit from at least one of the available Fighting Styles. Even with only three Fighter levels, Second Wind is statistically better than a free potion of healing every short rest. Action Surge is arguably one of the more powerful Tier-1 features in the game. Da Champ may not have anything inherent to them that actually takes advantage of the 100% increase in Crits, but with features like Brutal Critical, Divine Smite, and Sneak Attack that can take full advantage of the bump, those classes all make out fairly well with Improved Critical added to their arsenals. Heck, Improved Critical can even possibly help the Divine Strikers in the Cleric camp better than it helps Da Champ all alone.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting