Warrior of the Open Hand gets a (sort of) weapon mastery with unarmed strike: remove opponent's Opportunity Attacks (no save), Push 15 feat (save), or knock Prone (save). But it has a precious resource cost, as it can only be done with Flurry of Blows (1 Focus Point). But it is a piggybacking on FoB, so if you were going to Flurry of Blows anyway, it's a nice little rider.
Also, by 2024 rules you can do your bonus action unarmed strikes first. So, "I flurry of blows" and on the first attack attempt to knock them prove. If you succeed, the rest of your attacks are with advantage.
If Monks 2024 don't get any Weapon Mastery as default, then devs should have rolled most of the early WoOpen Hand stuff into the base Monk. Feats are expensive for Monks because their MAD stat spread hasn't changed. It's good that they can pick Tavern Brawler as a free feat, I agree. However, making Monks take another feat just to get a bit of control ability is a bad trade. Being able to Grapple easier is only better if you have the high AC to tank the damage of having your foe next to you. That's until you get to run up walls and drop them for fall damage at... level 9, so most of your way through your campaign career. And that's assuming your DM won't penaiize your ability to run up walls while holding another creature due to Encumbrance b/c, chances, are you will still have a STR score below 12.
If Monks 2024 don't get any Weapon Mastery as default, then devs should have rolled most of the early WoOpen Hand stuff into the base Monk. Feats are expensive for Monks because their MAD stat spread hasn't changed. It's good that they can pick Tavern Brawler as a free feat, I agree. However, making Monks take another feat just to get a bit of control ability is a bad trade. Being able to Grapple easier is only better if you have the high AC to tank the damage of having your foe next to you.
If those were base class features what would open hand haveAssuming you use standard array for 14 or 15 dex/wisdom and use the sailor background to increase wisdom and dex to have a score of 16 or +3 modifier in both. Grappler only means you lose one point compared to an ASI as you get to add 1 point to dex. You can start with an ac of 16 if you buff both main stats immediately. You are also the only class who can dodge and attack in the same round, at least early on.
That's until you get to run up walls and drop them for fall damage at... level 9, so most of your way through your campaign career. And that's assuming your DM won't penaiize your ability to run up walls while holding another creature due to Encumbrance b/c, chances, are you will still have a STR score below 12.
Can't buffs give you temporary flight before that also grappling rules are seemingly separate from encombrance rules being based on size rather than weight.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
True they have lower hit points, but not that much lower. It's only 2 Hit Die points less than the Fighter, Paladin and Ranger. Aside from getting more attacks per round, the Monks' Defense features more than make up for with such things as Patient Defense, Step Of the Wind, Deflect, Evasion, Movement speed, Removing Charmed, Frightened or Poisoned condition effects, Proficiency in ALL saving throws and to reroll a failed save etc.
Folks look too much into offense and perceived frailty due to Hit Points, but miss the bigger picture that makes Monk's hard to kill.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
They can knock enemies prone and push them with their unarmed attacks at level 2. And they’re among the best grapplers in the game. There’s three control options. At level 10 step of the wind, they can ferry allies around the battlefield. And there is still stun, which needed a nerf, and even after it is still strong, and now still gives benefits if the enemy saves. And that’s just the base class. Open hand can do some of them even a tiny bit better. Shadow can throw around darkness. I’m not sure how you can say they don’t have control options.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials. They are also Not strictly better grapplers even compared to the Valor or CoSwords Bard, since they lack Expertise. Not to mention the Rune Knight, which also has probably abt equivalent AC until the Monk capstone but has better hp progression and automatic Con proficiency (if you want to multi-class with any spellcaster). You mention knock Prone, but none of the Origin feats allow you to knock someone prone. Monks are already starved for ASIs due to the retention of their characteristic MADness. Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials.
Not much lower. 1 per level base. (But, I admit, probably lower con.) Also, they have free BA disengage and high movement, so they can grapple somebody, relocate them, and hen leave.
They are also Not strictly better grapplers even compared to the Valor or CoSwords Bard, since they lack Expertise.
Expertise has literally zero relevance to how well you can grapple.
You mention knock Prone, but none of the Origin feats allow you to knock someone prone.
Open hand monks get it as an inherent ability.
Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
It's decent, and I say this as somebody who's played a monk across the edition transition. But monks are the utility infielder of melee -- they can do pretty much anything competently, but they're not as good at any one thing as the specialists. They can control the battlefield, particularly if they're elements or open hand. They can fight front line, they can go after a specific target. Etc. And weapon mastery really wouldn't make them much better at any of these roles.
Okay, but that is literally the most vanilla flavor of Monk. You shouldn't have to be stuck playing only that one subclass to be able to have several control options when half-casters like Ranger and Paladin get two per turn starting level 5 just with resource-free Weapon Mastery uses. My point is that ALL Monks should be capable at more than basic grapple (which is sort of dangerous without multi-classing) and without being forced to play Open Hand Monk when EVERY single martial gets options for control via Weapon Mastery EXCEPT Monks.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials.
Not much lower. 1 per level base. (But, I admit, probably lower con.) Also, they have free BA disengage and high movement, so they can grapple somebody, relocate them, and hen leave.
Relocating means moving them, which means seriously limiting your own movement that round, which can be dangerous a lot of the time (again, Multi-attack) unless you have a convenient cliff nearby or smthing like a Web or Evard's Black Tentacles area to put the enemy into. IOW, it's either risky or situational. Ideally, being a grappler means you should be able to grapple someone and survive the grapple for more than one round.
Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
It's decent, and I say this as somebody who's played a monk across the edition transition. But monks are the utility infielder of melee -- they can do pretty much anything competently, but they're not as good at any one thing as the specialists. They can control the battlefield, particularly if they're elements or open hand. They can fight front line, they can go after a specific target. Etc. And weapon mastery really wouldn't make them much better at any of these roles.
Control should be part of the default Monk's bread and butter. Think about it: a human hand is very flexible part of the body in that it can hold, punch, push, apply light pressure, apply heavy pressure (if you know pain points on the body you are pressing), cup something, write (using a tool), paint (fingers), and more. In comparison, a dagger can only puncture, and a club can only *Thwack.*
Actually, I would care far less about the upscaled damage die as long as all Monks had access to the suite of abilities that Open Hand Monk gets at level 3. The 2024 Monk went in the direction of damage optimization (which I guess satisfies the power gamers) but didn't do much in terms of battlefield control...that is unless you want to take substatial risk to your not-great hit points. One hand punching (even from a boxer or kung fu master) should generally not do as much damage as a long sword held in both hands. But it should be more capable at doing a variety of manipulation-type abilities in combat since the root of the word "manipulate" relates to the Latin word for hand: 'manus'.
Knocking prone is part of shove under unarmed attacks. No feat required.
But I think to really discuss this, can you define “control” because, again, pushing, grappling, stunning and knocking prone seems like a pretty solid mix of control options. And only 1 of those requires a limited resource.
And keep in mind the change to unarmed attacks and bonus actions. You no longer need to take the attack action to qualify for BA unarmed strikes. So while you grapple someone, take the dodge action, and punch them (and still flurry if you like) with your BA. And if they hit anyway, you still get deflect attack for one of those.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
Review the part under shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.
Anyone can try and knock someone prone with an unarmed strike.
Several of those creatures you listed are huge, and no one is going to grapple them, save a rune knight or giants barbarian. But that aside, of course it won’t always work, but you seem to be arguing that it’s bad because it won’t be the best choice every time. Nothing works against every enemy. Nor should it.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
Review the part under shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.
Anyone can try and knock someone prone with an unarmed strike.
Several of those creatures you listed are huge, and no one is going to grapple them, save a rune knight or giants barbarian. But that aside, of course it won’t always work, but you seem to be arguing that it’s bad because it won’t be the best choice every time. Nothing works against every enemy. Nor should it.
Yes, not every tactic works with every enemy. This is precisely why having a range of options for control is best. This is why saying "grapple with d8 hit dice" and "stunning strike" (only once per turn) are "good enough" for Monks is not really satisfying. Yes, the basic Monk can technically shove, but they are no more likely to succeed than any other martial class. And because their main damage output is based on their # of attacks, shoving without dealing damage is of limited use to them unless they somehow get advantage or a bonus on that shove attack.
There are plenty of Medium and Large sized enemies with multi-attack at or above CR 5. Nalfeshnee=Large. Vrock=Large. Erinyes=Medium. Chain Devil=Medium, Ice Devil=Large. Young Adult Green/Black/Red Dragon = Large. Flesh/Clay/Stone Golem=Large. Otyugh=Large. Chimera=Large. Green/Red/Blue Slaad=Large. Xorn=Medium. Troll=Large. More than half of these are between CR 5 and 10. I guess Monks fighting CR 8+ monsters should just avoid grappling then, which leaves you with ... push for no damage and shove with no damage and nerfed Stunning Strike. But Fighter/Ranger/Barb/Paladin get free control abilites with Weapon Mastery. Some of which work using reach or ranged weapons. Oh well, Monk is expected to sacrifice themselves to grapple the Grey Slaad or the Vrock. Goodbye Monk PC. Better hope party members have Revivify or Raise Dead.
They can disengage for free (besides opportunity cost) as a bonus action (or if you attacked with a bonus action with your main action) and with the ability to willingly fail a saving throw you can grapple or push teammates out of danger or simply reposition allies given your generally have one of the higher movement speeds.
Also several subclass abilities help make up for base class even as they cause resources like elemental attunement, physician’s touch, and shadow step.
The Monk usually shouldn't be staying right next to their target at all times.
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If Monks 2024 don't get any Weapon Mastery as default, then devs should have rolled most of the early WoOpen Hand stuff into the base Monk. Feats are expensive for Monks because their MAD stat spread hasn't changed. It's good that they can pick Tavern Brawler as a free feat, I agree. However, making Monks take another feat just to get a bit of control ability is a bad trade. Being able to Grapple easier is only better if you have the high AC to tank the damage of having your foe next to you. That's until you get to run up walls and drop them for fall damage at... level 9, so most of your way through your campaign career. And that's assuming your DM won't penaiize your ability to run up walls while holding another creature due to Encumbrance b/c, chances, are you will still have a STR score below 12.
If those were base class features what would open hand haveAssuming you use standard array for 14 or 15 dex/wisdom and use the sailor background to increase wisdom and dex to have a score of 16 or +3 modifier in both. Grappler only means you lose one point compared to an ASI as you get to add 1 point to dex. You can start with an ac of 16 if you buff both main stats immediately. You are also the only class who can dodge and attack in the same round, at least early on.
Can't buffs give you temporary flight before that also grappling rules are seemingly separate from encombrance rules being based on size rather than weight.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
True they have lower hit points, but not that much lower. It's only 2 Hit Die points less than the Fighter, Paladin and Ranger. Aside from getting more attacks per round, the Monks' Defense features more than make up for with such things as Patient Defense, Step Of the Wind, Deflect, Evasion, Movement speed, Removing Charmed, Frightened or Poisoned condition effects, Proficiency in ALL saving throws and to reroll a failed save etc.
Folks look too much into offense and perceived frailty due to Hit Points, but miss the bigger picture that makes Monk's hard to kill.
They can knock enemies prone and push them with their unarmed attacks at level 2. And they’re among the best grapplers in the game. There’s three control options. At level 10 step of the wind, they can ferry allies around the battlefield. And there is still stun, which needed a nerf, and even after it is still strong, and now still gives benefits if the enemy saves. And that’s just the base class. Open hand can do some of them even a tiny bit better. Shadow can throw around darkness.
I’m not sure how you can say they don’t have control options.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials. They are also Not strictly better grapplers even compared to the Valor or CoSwords Bard, since they lack Expertise. Not to mention the Rune Knight, which also has probably abt equivalent AC until the Monk capstone but has better hp progression and automatic Con proficiency (if you want to multi-class with any spellcaster). You mention knock Prone, but none of the Origin feats allow you to knock someone prone. Monks are already starved for ASIs due to the retention of their characteristic MADness. Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
Not much lower. 1 per level base. (But, I admit, probably lower con.) Also, they have free BA disengage and high movement, so they can grapple somebody, relocate them, and hen leave.
Expertise has literally zero relevance to how well you can grapple.
Open hand monks get it as an inherent ability.
It's decent, and I say this as somebody who's played a monk across the edition transition. But monks are the utility infielder of melee -- they can do pretty much anything competently, but they're not as good at any one thing as the specialists. They can control the battlefield, particularly if they're elements or open hand. They can fight front line, they can go after a specific target. Etc. And weapon mastery really wouldn't make them much better at any of these roles.
Okay, but that is literally the most vanilla flavor of Monk. You shouldn't have to be stuck playing only that one subclass to be able to have several control options when half-casters like Ranger and Paladin get two per turn starting level 5 just with resource-free Weapon Mastery uses. My point is that ALL Monks should be capable at more than basic grapple (which is sort of dangerous without multi-classing) and without being forced to play Open Hand Monk when EVERY single martial gets options for control via Weapon Mastery EXCEPT Monks.
Relocating means moving them, which means seriously limiting your own movement that round, which can be dangerous a lot of the time (again, Multi-attack) unless you have a convenient cliff nearby or smthing like a Web or Evard's Black Tentacles area to put the enemy into. IOW, it's either risky or situational. Ideally, being a grappler means you should be able to grapple someone and survive the grapple for more than one round.
Control should be part of the default Monk's bread and butter. Think about it: a human hand is very flexible part of the body in that it can hold, punch, push, apply light pressure, apply heavy pressure (if you know pain points on the body you are pressing), cup something, write (using a tool), paint (fingers), and more. In comparison, a dagger can only puncture, and a club can only *Thwack.*
Actually, I would care far less about the upscaled damage die as long as all Monks had access to the suite of abilities that Open Hand Monk gets at level 3. The 2024 Monk went in the direction of damage optimization (which I guess satisfies the power gamers) but didn't do much in terms of battlefield control...that is unless you want to take substatial risk to your not-great hit points. One hand punching (even from a boxer or kung fu master) should generally not do as much damage as a long sword held in both hands. But it should be more capable at doing a variety of manipulation-type abilities in combat since the root of the word "manipulate" relates to the Latin word for hand: 'manus'.
Knocking prone is part of shove under unarmed attacks. No feat required.
But I think to really discuss this, can you define “control” because, again, pushing, grappling, stunning and knocking prone seems like a pretty solid mix of control options. And only 1 of those requires a limited resource.
And keep in mind the change to unarmed attacks and bonus actions. You no longer need to take the attack action to qualify for BA unarmed strikes. So while you grapple someone, take the dodge action, and punch them (and still flurry if you like) with your BA. And if they hit anyway, you still get deflect attack for one of those.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/rules-glossary#UnarmedStrike
Review the part under shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.
Anyone can try and knock someone prone with an unarmed strike.
Several of those creatures you listed are huge, and no one is going to grapple them, save a rune knight or giants barbarian. But that aside, of course it won’t always work, but you seem to be arguing that it’s bad because it won’t be the best choice every time. Nothing works against every enemy. Nor should it.
Yes, not every tactic works with every enemy. This is precisely why having a range of options for control is best. This is why saying "grapple with d8 hit dice" and "stunning strike" (only once per turn) are "good enough" for Monks is not really satisfying. Yes, the basic Monk can technically shove, but they are no more likely to succeed than any other martial class. And because their main damage output is based on their # of attacks, shoving without dealing damage is of limited use to them unless they somehow get advantage or a bonus on that shove attack.
There are plenty of Medium and Large sized enemies with multi-attack at or above CR 5. Nalfeshnee=Large. Vrock=Large. Erinyes=Medium. Chain Devil=Medium, Ice Devil=Large. Young Adult Green/Black/Red Dragon = Large. Flesh/Clay/Stone Golem=Large. Otyugh=Large. Chimera=Large. Green/Red/Blue Slaad=Large. Xorn=Medium. Troll=Large. More than half of these are between CR 5 and 10. I guess Monks fighting CR 8+ monsters should just avoid grappling then, which leaves you with ... push for no damage and shove with no damage and nerfed Stunning Strike. But Fighter/Ranger/Barb/Paladin get free control abilites with Weapon Mastery. Some of which work using reach or ranged weapons. Oh well, Monk is expected to sacrifice themselves to grapple the Grey Slaad or the Vrock. Goodbye Monk PC. Better hope party members have Revivify or Raise Dead.
They can disengage for free (besides opportunity cost) as a bonus action (or if you attacked with a bonus action with your main action) and with the ability to willingly fail a saving throw you can grapple or push teammates out of danger or simply reposition allies given your generally have one of the higher movement speeds.
Also several subclass abilities help make up for base class even as they cause resources like elemental attunement, physician’s touch, and shadow step.
The Monk usually shouldn't be staying right next to their target at all times.