Am I just a bad person and consider the monk being very powerful...even if Damage output isn't its highest priority it is LITERALLY the most survivable class.
Nah. I mean, I personally would say the paladin is quite a bit better at surviving things than the monk.
It depends on how tall a building you can manage to push the Paladin off. ;)
If the Paladin is high enough level and cast Death Ward that morning (or has Undying Sentinel) he falls from super high, stands up with 1 hit point, and then pours all of his LoH into himself. 😁
But yeah, monk is very good at surviving and getting away. Not many people can keep up with a monk.
Instead of buffing the die, how about at level 11, flurry of blows grants 2 additional unarmed strike attacks rather than 1?
It makes more sense thematically too. He now moves faster (increase in move distance), he should theoretically punch/kick faster and get even more strikes in.
Instead of buffing the die, how about at level 11, flurry of blows grants 2 additional unarmed strike attacks rather than 1?
It makes more sense thematically too. He now moves faster (increase in move distance), he should theoretically punch/kick faster and get even more strikes in.
Again, not necessary. Four attacks per turn is *really* good. And at level 11 you will most likely never run out of Ki points to use on that.
Am I just a bad person and consider the monk being very powerful...even if Damage output isn't its highest priority it is LITERALLY the most survivable class.
Nah. I mean, I personally would say the paladin is quite a bit better at surviving things than the monk.
It depends on how tall a building you can manage to push the Paladin off. ;)
If the Paladin is high enough level and cast Death Ward that morning (or has Undying Sentinel) he falls from super high, stands up with 1 hit point, and then pours all of his LoH into himself. 😁
But yeah, monk is very good at surviving and getting away. Not many people can keep up with a monk.
seriously you are gonna gonna compare Death ward to the monks slow fall...But guess who can fall again without using a spell slot and worry about about as long as they are close to a wall. I'm just saying the the monk has alot in its kit. Only have a D10 damage die isn't so bad at the most, that means all monk weapons right? So a dagger can do more, a whip(if kensai) can do more.
I think that my main issues with Monks are that they do get knocked unconscious easily at low levels, they don't get enough ASIs considering how dependent they are on maxing both DEX and WIS to get a decent AC, and they have a very bad capstone.
While Treatmonk's video does put a lot of emphasis on DPR, which is arguably not the Monk's niche, I do agree that Stunning Strikes alone does not make up for the lower than average DPR. Stunning Strike only works reliably on low CON enemies. As a controller & skirmisher, the base Monk really should have more than that 1 combat trick. I would really prefer that the devs would have made two aspects of Open Hand Monk's level 3 ability available to all Monks: the DEX save to avoid being knocked prone and the STR save to avoid being pushed back 15 feet. It's not OP for a Drunken Master or a Long Death Monk to be able to do those things and allowing all Monks to target multiple saving throws allows players to feel genuinely useful if your party is fighting a bunch of Giants or fiends. Taking out low hp mooks and stunning-locking wizards at high levels is useful, but wears thin after a while.
IMHO, the best way to boost a Monk is a 2 level dip into Class Feature Variant Ranger.
Better yet, change HD of Monks to a d10 and increase starting Ki by bonus equal to WIS modifier (min. of 1). Most Fighting styles don't benefit Monk that much and armor is countermanded by Unarmored Movement. Is a Hunter's Mark worth it if you only get 2 spell slots and are likely to lose concentration?
You are an unsurpassed explorer and survivor. Choose one of the following benefits, and then choose another one at 6th and 10th level.
Canny
Choose one skill: Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. You gain proficiency in the chosen skill if you don’t already have it, and you can add double your proficiency bonus to ability checks using that skill. In addition, thanks to your extensive wandering, you are able to speak, read, and write two languages of your choice.
Roving
Your walking speed increases by 5, and you gain a climbing speed and a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.
Tireless
As an action, you can give yourself a number of temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + your Wisdom modifier. You can use this special action a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. In addition, whenever you finish a short rest, your exhaustion level, if any, is decreased by 1.
Favored Foe
1st-level ranger feature (replaces Favored Enemy)
You can call on your bond with nature to mark a creature as your favored enemy for a time: you know the hunter’s mark spell, and Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for it. You can use it a certain number of times without expending a spell slot and without requiring concentration— a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. When you gain the Spellcasting feature at 2nd level, hunter’s mark doesn’t count against the number of ranger spells you know.
When you gain the Fighting Style feature, you get access to the variants in the “Fighting Styles” section (see page 12). The Druidic Warrior style is also added to the list of style options available to you.
Druidic Warrior
You learn two cantrips of your choice from the druid spell list. They count as ranger spells for you, and Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for them. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of these cantrips with another cantrip from the druid spell list.
Style Options
Fighter, paladin, and ranger feature (enhances Fighting Style)
When you choose a fighting style, the following styles are added to the list of options.
Blind Fighting
Being unable to see a creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it, provided the creature isn’t hidden from you.
Interception
When a creature you can see hits a target that is within 5 feet of you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage the target takes by 1d10 + your proficiency bonus (to a minimum of 0 damage). You must be wielding a shield or a simple or martial weapon to use this reaction.
Thrown Weapon Fighting
You can draw a weapon that has the thrown property as part of the attack you make with the weapon. In addition, when you hit with a ranged attack using a thrown weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to the damage roll.
Unarmed Fighting
Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier. If you strike with two free hands, the d6 becomes a d8. When you successfully start a grapple, you can deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage to the grappled creature. Until the grapple ends, you can also deal this damage to the creature whenever you hit it with a melee attack.
Especially when added to the CFV Monk:
Monk
A monk has access to the following features.
Monk Weapons
1st-level monk feature (enhances Martial Arts)
You can use this feature to define your monk weapons, rather than using the definition in Martial Arts. You practice your martial arts with specially chosen weapons, which become monk weapons for you. You can choose a number of weapons to be your monk weapons equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier (minimum of five weapons). The chosen weapons must each meet the following criteria: • The weapon must be a simple or martial weapon. • You must be proficient with the weapon. • The weapon must lack these properties: heavy, special, or two-handed.
Ki-Fueled Strike
2nd-level monk feature (enhances Ki)
If you spend 1 ki or more as part of your action on your turn, you can then immediately make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.
Ki Features
2nd-level monk feature (enhances Ki)
When you gain the Ki feature at 2nd level, you get access to the following features.
Distant Eye
When you make a ranged weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to prevent attacking at long range from imposing disadvantage on your attack rolls until the end of the current turn.
Quickened Healing
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and roll a Martial Arts die. You regain a number of hit points equal to the number rolled.
Am I just a bad person and consider the monk being very powerful...even if Damage output isn't its highest priority it is LITERALLY the most survivable class.
Nah. I mean, I personally would say the paladin is quite a bit better at surviving things than the monk.
It depends on how tall a building you can manage to push the Paladin off. ;)
If the Paladin is high enough level and cast Death Ward that morning (or has Undying Sentinel) he falls from super high, stands up with 1 hit point, and then pours all of his LoH into himself. 😁
But yeah, monk is very good at surviving and getting away. Not many people can keep up with a monk.
seriously you are gonna gonna compare Death ward to the monks slow fall...But guess who can fall again without using a spell slot and worry about about as long as they are close to a wall. I'm just saying the the monk has alot in its kit. Only have a D10 damage die isn't so bad at the most, that means all monk weapons right? So a dagger can do more, a whip(if kensai) can do more.
I think that my main issues with Monks are that they do get knocked unconscious easily at low levels, they don't get enough ASIs considering how dependent they are on maxing both DEX and WIS to get a decent AC, and they have a very bad capstone.
While Treatmonk's video does put a lot of emphasis on DPR, which is arguably not the Monk's niche, I do agree that Stunning Strikes alone does not make up for the lower than average DPR. Stunning Strike only works reliably on low CON enemies. As a controller & skirmisher, the base Monk really should have more than that 1 combat trick. I would really prefer that the devs would have made two aspects of Open Hand Monk's level 3 ability available to all Monks: the DEX save to avoid being knocked prone and the STR save to avoid being pushed back 15 feet. It's not OP for a Drunken Master or a Long Death Monk to be able to do those things and allowing all Monks to target multiple saving throws allows players to feel genuinely useful if your party is fighting a bunch of Giants or fiends. Taking out low hp mooks and stunning-locking wizards at high levels is useful, but wears thin after a while.
Monks being reliant on stats instead items for a lot of their abilities is a downside for them, yes. However, there are plenty of magical items that can make up for that. They do have a very bad capstone but on the other hand they have a level 14 ability which is better than a lot of other classes' capstones so there's that.
Stunning Strike isn't suppose to "make up for the lower than average DPR", it's there to give the Monks utility in combat. Again, the game (and even the combat in the game) is about a lot more than than just maxing your DPR. And monks have a bunch of different tricks up their sleeves. All of them can Step of teh Wind or Patient Defence, Shadow Monks can teleport, Open Hand can heal themselves, so on and so on.
I think some of the features of CFV Ranger are OP for a half-caster. It's likely that WotC will scale back some of them before the official release. It's not just me saying this. Even trying to incorporate just one or two of the more martial features into the base Ranger as homebrew has been controversial with DMs I've played with.
I think some of the features of CFV Ranger are OP for a half-caster. It's likely that WotC will scale back some of them before the official release. It's not just me saying this. Even trying to incorporate just one or two of the more martial features into the base Ranger as homebrew has been controversial with DMs I've played with.
Maybe. But Rangers need all the help they can get.
I frankly don’t see it being that OP when compared to things like Wild Shape, Action Surge, Arcane Recovery, etc. Hunter’s Mark should have been a class feature from the gate IMHO, so I have no problem with Favored Foe. A Cantrip Fighting Style is a fantastic idea to me either. Deft Explorer might be a bit much, but I really don’t see it breaking the game at all. PM me or start a new thread in the UA forum and we can exchange thoughts!
Stunning Strike isn't suppose to "make up for the lower than average DPR", it's there to give the Monks utility in combat. Again, the game (and even the combat in the game) is about a lot more than than just maxing your DPR. And monks have a bunch of different tricks up their sleeves. All of them can Step of teh Wind or Patient Defence, Shadow Monks can teleport, Open Hand can heal themselves, so on and so on.
The problem is that Stunning Strike is the only control feature that most Monks will ever get. If you're already doing less average damage than Fighters, Rogues, Paladins, and (non-BM) Rangers, you depend a lot on Stunning Strike to make up for that lack of straightforward damage. Having greater mobility is great, but without skill bonuses, feats, while being reliant on a CON save attack ability, most Monk subclasses don't have many battlefield control options. Diamond Soul is useful for the Monk PC, but has no direct impact on combat for the rest of the party.
In combat, the primary activities that help the Party are:
1) Kill/knock out the enemies. This is where having high DPR comes in and extra attack/AoE effects come in.
2) Buff your allies
3) Change the battlefield so that it favors the party instead of your foes.
4) De-buff/handicap your enemies
5) Remove debuffs applied to your party
Out of the 5 above, the base Monk is only somewhat capable of the first bullet point once you get into mid-tier play unless you want to spend a lot of Ki trying to apply Stun to a bunch of enemies. Stun is great if it lands, but it's reliant on enemies failing a CON save and there are a lot of monsters with high CON. My point is that base Monks should either be better at #1 or #4 than they currently are for them to be comparably useful in combat to Rogues and (non-BM) Rangers.
Maybe. But Rangers need all the help they can get.
I frankly don’t see it being that OP when compared to things like Wild Shape, Action Surge, Arcane Recovery, etc. Hunter’s Mark should have been a class feature from the gate IMHO, so I have no problem with Favored Foe. A Cantrip Fighting Style is a fantastic idea to me either. Deft Explorer might be a bit much, but I really don’t see it breaking the game at all. PM me or start a new thread in the UA forum and we can exchange thoughts!
Honestly, I'm not here to quibble over the base Ranger vs. the CFV Ranger. This thread is about Monks, let's focus on that, shall we?
Maybe. But Rangers need all the help they can get.
I frankly don’t see it being that OP when compared to things like Wild Shape, Action Surge, Arcane Recovery, etc. Hunter’s Mark should have been a class feature from the gate IMHO, so I have no problem with Favored Foe. A Cantrip Fighting Style is a fantastic idea to me either. Deft Explorer might be a bit much, but I really don’t see it breaking the game at all. PM me or start a new thread in the UA forum and we can exchange thoughts!
Honestly, I'm not here to quibble over the base Ranger vs. the CFV Ranger. This thread is about Monks, let's focus on that, shall we?
I agree. I highlighted the part I think you missed.
Yeah, sorry, not interested in arguing the merits of the CFV Ranger anymore unless Wizards releases another UA or an official poll on the subject. Regardless, I'm mostly in agreement w/ you on the crapulence of the base Ranger. Let's leave it at that.
The problem is that Stunning Strike is the only control feature that most Monks will ever get. If you're already doing less average damage than Fighters, Rogues, Paladins, and (non-BM) Rangers, you depend a lot on Stunning Strike to make up for that lack of straightforward damage. Having greater mobility is great, but without skill bonuses, feats, while being reliant on a CON save attack ability, most Monk subclasses don't have many battlefield control options. Diamond Soul is useful for the Monk PC, but has no direct impact on combat for the rest of the party.
In combat, the primary activities that help the Party are:
1) Kill/knock out the enemies. This is where having high DPR comes in and extra attack/AoE effects come in.
2) Buff your allies
3) Change the battlefield so that it favors the party instead of your foes.
4) De-buff/handicap your enemies
5) Remove debuffs applied to your party
Out of the 5 above, the base Monk is only somewhat capable of the first bullet point once you get into mid-tier play unless you want to spend a lot of Ki trying to apply Stun to a bunch of enemies. Stun is great if it lands, but it's reliant on enemies failing a CON save and there are a lot of monsters with high CON. My point is that base Monks should either be better at #1 or #4 than they currently are for them to be comparably useful in combat to Rogues and (non-BM) Rangers.
So, Stunning Blow is both 2 and 4, with bits of 3, when you get right down to it. The monster is stunned, losing its turn, AND everyone gets advantage on attacking the target. This is important when you're dealing with enemy casters and archers, with boss fights, with that warlord buffing everyone. Its a tactical weapon that relies on a monk's famed mobility to get to the right target.
Honestly, suggesting that you "apply Stun to a bunch of enemies" kind of misses the point. Monks are skirmishers. Mobility units. Their job is to run in, punch people around, run out. They don't wade into a sea of foes and punch their way out. That's why mages like the wizard, warlock and sorcerer exist. AoE control is their job, not the monk's. The monk runs through the hoard of enemies to the back, where they start taking out the enemy back row forces.
There's a reason why the number 1 suggested feat for a monk is Mobility. It takes what monks are already awesome at, and makes it better, and you can do even more with that playstyle.
Every class has a distinct style of playing they were designed for (exccept the poor sorcerer and overlap with wizard, but that's neither here nor there). If you want to make the most out of the class, you need to roughly play like the class intends. And, when you do, the classes usually shine (except Ranger, but exception, not rule).Anyways, my point is that its easy to make the monk look bad when you don't grasp how to play the class well, and expect them to just wade into a field of mooks as if they were a Barbarian and punch their way out. The monk has more in common with an assassin than a fighter.
A note about monsters and high CON. Curiously, while there's a lot of monsters with high CON, and a lot with CON proficiency, there's surprisingly a fair amount that only have one or the other, giving you a fair chance on even those. At least until high level, where big bads expect you to spend a lot of energy to try and CC them.
What I'm saying is that I understand why people like Treatmonk criticize the Monk for being sub-optimal when most Monks rely so much on Ki and Stunning Strike is their only control/de-buff tool in their toolbox. As you acknowledge yourself, the higher level you go, the more monsters there are going to be with high CON. Stun by itself is too limited (and a bit boring) once you get into mid-tier play unless for some reason the DM decides to throw a bunch of enemy Wizards or other glass cannons at the party.
There's a reason why the number 1 suggested feat for a monk is Mobility. It takes what monks are already awesome at, and makes it better, and you can do even more with that playstyle.
Sure, I don't dispute that. But isn't a shame that Monks get so few ASIs with which to spend on feats like Mobility? Should Variant Human be the default Monk to pick up Mobility at level 1? Because between level 1 and level 4 at least, Monks are generally pretty squishy a class without many good ranged attack options. Every feat is quite expensive for Monks because of how dependent they are on getting high stats for DEX and WIS. In this respect, the base Monk is worse than the base Ranger because at least the base Ranger gets access to armor and shield, has a d10 hit die, can benefit from a Fighting Style, and furthermore is easier to multi-class since spell slots are spell slots but Ki doesn't match up with any other class's features.
What I'm saying is that I understand why people like Treatmonk criticize the Monk for being sub-optimal when most Monks rely so much on Ki and Stunning Strike is their only control/de-buff tool in their toolbox. As you acknowledge yourself, the higher level you go, the more monsters there are going to be with high CON. Stun by itself is too limited (and a bit boring) once you get into mid-tier play unless for some reason the DM decides to throw a bunch of enemy Wizards or other glass cannons at the party.
Well, I don't really follow the optimal game, but I've found that most of the time? "Not enough ki-points" is usually the result of not enough short rests, and the game is balanced around the assumption you get one short rest per two encounters. Which is usually something you can't count on in reality. I can't tell you how many time I've gotten frustrated as a bard or warlock when we never short rested. Bleh. So, yeah. Short rests are something that vary from game to game, so optimizers can't plan on it, so it kind of gets assumed there are none, and that does hurt evaluations of the monk, etc. But that's less to do with actual number crunching, and more to do with playstyles. The number of rests change everything.
I mean, that also ties into the higher levels with high Con. You have more ki points, which means you have more to spend on trying to strike that boss (or whatever) to stun them, which works out roughly the same as low levels, tbh. Again, short rests are the bottle neck here. Though, I do find that, as you get higher and higher level, you don't just encounter large amounts of meat heads to fight. The casters have far too many tools to take them down, so the DM has to mix things up to make it a challenge. Tactics that work below level 7 are rather laughable at levels 11+. So, it becomes even more important to have diverse enemy parties, which in turn allows the monk to shine. Its not even glass cannons; but they're just the most easily recognizable targets you need to hit.
Boring? Well, *eyes the warlock, fighter, barbarian, etc* Yeah. Boring is kind of a theme with a lot of core class abilities.
But when all is said and done, I do hear a lot of stories about people loving the monk in game, and frustration with a lot of DMs who see their BBEGs get stun locked by the monk, and complain about it being OP more than they complain about it being too weak.
But isn't a shame that Monks get so few ASIs with which to spend on feats like Mobility? Should Variant Human be the default Monk to pick up Mobility at level 1? Because between level 1 and level 4 at least, Monks are generally pretty squishy a class without many good ranged attack options.
Well, no less than anyone else, really. I mean, Fighter gets a bunch, but that's their advantage as a class. Everyone else gets the same number of ASI, and while not all classes need two stats as much as monk does, no one can ignore all but one stat. Plus, I'd say that monks are the same squishy as anyone else at those low levels; its dangerous for pretty much everyone at low levels, though in different ways. Plus, monks get a short bow and can run faster than most monsters, letting them kite attackers without ranged options of their own, so I wouldn't say they have bad ranged options.
Variant Human is probably the default monk race, but that's more the fault of there being crap options for monks in terms of race, plus the monk as a class, is based on the old Kung Fu / xianxia type of stories, and those are predominantly humans, so thematically humans are the default monk race anyways. Though, there's lots of love for tabaxi and aarakocra monks, I notice, but they're not... purrfect. Sorry, had to.
Well, I don't really follow the optimal game, but I've found that most of the time? "Not enough ki-points" is usually the result of not enough short rests, and the game is balanced around the assumption you get one short rest per two encounters. Which is usually something you can't count on in reality. I can't tell you how many time I've gotten frustrated as a bard or warlock when we never short rested. Bleh. So, yeah. Short rests are something that vary from game to game, so optimizers can't plan on it, so it kind of gets assumed there are none, and that does hurt evaluations of the monk, etc. But that's less to do with actual number crunching, and more to do with playstyles. The number of rests change everything.
If your Monk only has 2 Ki points and your AC is crap, your character doesn't have many options to be effective in combat except to hope for to kill whatever you're fighting really fast. (Not likely w/ a 1d4+2 or +3 to damage.) I played a Lizardfolk Monk at 2nd level. A small party of three. Going against 6 orcs. Orcs. My character was the first to go down. I observed the same thing in another game with another player playing a Drow Monk at 2nd and 3rd level. She was always the first one to go down. Gee, I wonder why.
You mentioned kiting monsters using a short bow. Is that doable? Yes, but it's ineffective. Only the Kensei Monk can boost ranged damage effectively. The main argument of most people against changes to the base Monk class's damage die is that Stunning Strike is powerful and having lots of attacks gets you multiple chances to connect for that Stun. But going ranged prevents you from doing that very thing. And unlike Fighters and Rangers, you don't benefit from the Archery Fighting style and unlike Rogues, you don't get sneak attack damage. IOW, asking most Monks to go for ranged attacks over melee attacks is already admitting to how the Monk lacks survivability and effectiveness relative to the weapon-centric classes.
But when all is said and done, I do hear a lot of stories about people loving the monk in game, and frustration with a lot of DMs who see their BBEGs get stun locked by the monk, and complain about it being OP more than they complain about it being too weak.
I never made the argument that Stunning is weak. What I said was that its too dependent on the enemy having a relatively low CON stat to be reliable. Therefore, being able to use other control effects, like what the Open Hand Monk gets at 3rd level, would go some way towards addressing the sub-optimal combat effectiveness of Monks.
Also, you're completely ignoring everything I wrote about the AC of the Monk being a problem. Having to spend all your ASIs on the Monk to get to AC 20 by level 19 is a joke for a skirmisher class that has to spend a resource to be effective in combat. That's why it's poorly designed. Players shouldn't have to play V. Human to get Mobility to not feel like their class is unusually easy to drop.
Mobile is a good feat but if you have multiple opponents clustered and you are unable to maneuver into place so that only the one you are attacking is within 5 feet, when you move out you are still subject to OA from the other opponent(s) and your AC isn’t great. Mobile is only good on the one you attack. In that case you either eat the OA or spend Ki to disengage or patient defense and weather the storm.
It seems, at least at our table, so far it isn’t a couple enemies spread out but typically 5-8 possibly more and rarely do we end up one on one. So multiple enemies are on each character. Not all the time, depending on terrain or marching order or initiative order that allows you to move before the enemy closes the distance. My next character is definitely going to be a Monk though and will use others advice for tactics on the battlefield.
If the Paladin is high enough level and cast Death Ward that morning (or has Undying Sentinel) he falls from super high, stands up with 1 hit point, and then pours all of his LoH into himself. 😁
But yeah, monk is very good at surviving and getting away. Not many people can keep up with a monk.
Instead of buffing the die, how about at level 11, flurry of blows grants 2 additional unarmed strike attacks rather than 1?
It makes more sense thematically too. He now moves faster (increase in move distance), he should theoretically punch/kick faster and get even more strikes in.
Again, not necessary. Four attacks per turn is *really* good. And at level 11 you will most likely never run out of Ki points to use on that.
seriously you are gonna gonna compare Death ward to the monks slow fall...But guess who can fall again without using a spell slot and worry about about as long as they are close to a wall. I'm just saying the the monk has alot in its kit. Only have a D10 damage die isn't so bad at the most, that means all monk weapons right? So a dagger can do more, a whip(if kensai) can do more.
I think that my main issues with Monks are that they do get knocked unconscious easily at low levels, they don't get enough ASIs considering how dependent they are on maxing both DEX and WIS to get a decent AC, and they have a very bad capstone.
While Treatmonk's video does put a lot of emphasis on DPR, which is arguably not the Monk's niche, I do agree that Stunning Strikes alone does not make up for the lower than average DPR. Stunning Strike only works reliably on low CON enemies. As a controller & skirmisher, the base Monk really should have more than that 1 combat trick. I would really prefer that the devs would have made two aspects of Open Hand Monk's level 3 ability available to all Monks: the DEX save to avoid being knocked prone and the STR save to avoid being pushed back 15 feet. It's not OP for a Drunken Master or a Long Death Monk to be able to do those things and allowing all Monks to target multiple saving throws allows players to feel genuinely useful if your party is fighting a bunch of Giants or fiends. Taking out low hp mooks and stunning-locking wizards at high levels is useful, but wears thin after a while.
IMHO, the best way to boost a Monk is a 2 level dip into Class Feature Variant Ranger.
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Better yet, change HD of Monks to a d10 and increase starting Ki by bonus equal to WIS modifier (min. of 1). Most Fighting styles don't benefit Monk that much and armor is countermanded by Unarmored Movement. Is a Hunter's Mark worth it if you only get 2 spell slots and are likely to lose concentration?
Ranger
A ranger has access to the following features.
Deft Explorer
1st-level ranger feature (replaces Natural Explorer)
You are an unsurpassed explorer and survivor. Choose one of the following benefits, and then choose another one at 6th and 10th level.
Canny
Choose one skill: Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. You gain proficiency in the chosen skill if you don’t already have it, and you can add double your proficiency bonus to ability checks using that skill.
In addition, thanks to your extensive wandering, you are able to speak, read, and write two languages of your choice.
Roving
Your walking speed increases by 5, and you gain a climbing speed and a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.
Tireless
As an action, you can give yourself a number of temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + your Wisdom modifier. You can use this special action a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
In addition, whenever you finish a short rest, your exhaustion level, if any, is decreased by 1.
Favored Foe
1st-level ranger feature (replaces Favored Enemy)
You can call on your bond with nature to mark a creature as your favored enemy for a time: you know the hunter’s mark spell, and Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for it. You can use it a certain number of times without expending a spell slot and without requiring concentration— a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
When you gain the Spellcasting feature at 2nd level, hunter’s mark doesn’t count against the number of ranger spells you know.
Fighting Style Options
2nd-level ranger feature (enhances Fighting Style)
When you gain the Fighting Style feature, you get access to the variants in the “Fighting Styles” section (see page 12).
The Druidic Warrior style is also added to the list of style options available to you.
Druidic Warrior
You learn two cantrips of your choice from the druid spell list. They count as ranger spells for you, and Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for them. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of these cantrips with another cantrip from the druid spell list.
Style Options
Fighter, paladin, and ranger feature (enhances Fighting Style)
When you choose a fighting style, the following styles are added to the list of options.
Blind Fighting
Being unable to see a creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it, provided the creature isn’t hidden from you.
Interception
When a creature you can see hits a target that is within 5 feet of you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage the target takes by 1d10 + your proficiency bonus (to a minimum of 0 damage). You must be wielding a shield or a simple or martial weapon to use this reaction.
Thrown Weapon Fighting
You can draw a weapon that has the thrown property as part of the attack you make with the weapon.
In addition, when you hit with a ranged attack using a thrown weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to the damage roll.
Unarmed Fighting
Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier. If you strike with two free hands, the d6 becomes a d8.
When you successfully start a grapple, you can deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage to the grappled creature. Until the grapple ends, you can also deal this damage to the creature whenever you hit it with a melee attack.
Monk
A monk has access to the following features.
Monk Weapons
1st-level monk feature (enhances Martial Arts)
You can use this feature to define your monk weapons, rather than using the definition in Martial Arts.
You practice your martial arts with specially chosen weapons, which become monk weapons for you. You can choose a number of weapons to be your monk weapons equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier (minimum of five weapons). The chosen weapons must each meet the following criteria:
• The weapon must be a simple or martial weapon.
• You must be proficient with the weapon.
• The weapon must lack these properties: heavy,
special, or two-handed.
Ki-Fueled Strike
2nd-level monk feature (enhances Ki)
If you spend 1 ki or more as part of your action on your turn, you can then immediately make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.
Ki Features
2nd-level monk feature (enhances Ki)
When you gain the Ki feature at 2nd level, you get access to the following features.
Distant Eye
When you make a ranged weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to prevent attacking at long range from imposing disadvantage on your attack rolls until the end of the current turn.
Quickened Healing
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and roll a Martial Arts die. You regain a number of hit points equal to the number rolled.
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Yes, this is correct.
Monks being reliant on stats instead items for a lot of their abilities is a downside for them, yes. However, there are plenty of magical items that can make up for that. They do have a very bad capstone but on the other hand they have a level 14 ability which is better than a lot of other classes' capstones so there's that.
Stunning Strike isn't suppose to "make up for the lower than average DPR", it's there to give the Monks utility in combat. Again, the game (and even the combat in the game) is about a lot more than than just maxing your DPR. And monks have a bunch of different tricks up their sleeves. All of them can Step of teh Wind or Patient Defence, Shadow Monks can teleport, Open Hand can heal themselves, so on and so on.
I think some of the features of CFV Ranger are OP for a half-caster. It's likely that WotC will scale back some of them before the official release. It's not just me saying this. Even trying to incorporate just one or two of the more martial features into the base Ranger as homebrew has been controversial with DMs I've played with.
Maybe. But Rangers need all the help they can get.
I frankly don’t see it being that OP when compared to things like Wild Shape, Action Surge, Arcane Recovery, etc. Hunter’s Mark should have been a class feature from the gate IMHO, so I have no problem with Favored Foe. A Cantrip Fighting Style is a fantastic idea to me either. Deft Explorer might be a bit much, but I really don’t see it breaking the game at all. PM me or start a new thread in the UA forum and we can exchange thoughts!
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The problem is that Stunning Strike is the only control feature that most Monks will ever get. If you're already doing less average damage than Fighters, Rogues, Paladins, and (non-BM) Rangers, you depend a lot on Stunning Strike to make up for that lack of straightforward damage. Having greater mobility is great, but without skill bonuses, feats, while being reliant on a CON save attack ability, most Monk subclasses don't have many battlefield control options. Diamond Soul is useful for the Monk PC, but has no direct impact on combat for the rest of the party.
In combat, the primary activities that help the Party are:
1) Kill/knock out the enemies. This is where having high DPR comes in and extra attack/AoE effects come in.
2) Buff your allies
3) Change the battlefield so that it favors the party instead of your foes.
4) De-buff/handicap your enemies
5) Remove debuffs applied to your party
Out of the 5 above, the base Monk is only somewhat capable of the first bullet point once you get into mid-tier play unless you want to spend a lot of Ki trying to apply Stun to a bunch of enemies. Stun is great if it lands, but it's reliant on enemies failing a CON save and there are a lot of monsters with high CON. My point is that base Monks should either be better at #1 or #4 than they currently are for them to be comparably useful in combat to Rogues and (non-BM) Rangers.
Honestly, I'm not here to quibble over the base Ranger vs. the CFV Ranger. This thread is about Monks, let's focus on that, shall we?
I agree. I highlighted the part I think you missed.
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Yeah, sorry, not interested in arguing the merits of the CFV Ranger anymore unless Wizards releases another UA or an official poll on the subject. Regardless, I'm mostly in agreement w/ you on the crapulence of the base Ranger. Let's leave it at that.
So, Stunning Blow is both 2 and 4, with bits of 3, when you get right down to it. The monster is stunned, losing its turn, AND everyone gets advantage on attacking the target. This is important when you're dealing with enemy casters and archers, with boss fights, with that warlord buffing everyone. Its a tactical weapon that relies on a monk's famed mobility to get to the right target.
Honestly, suggesting that you "apply Stun to a bunch of enemies" kind of misses the point. Monks are skirmishers. Mobility units. Their job is to run in, punch people around, run out. They don't wade into a sea of foes and punch their way out. That's why mages like the wizard, warlock and sorcerer exist. AoE control is their job, not the monk's. The monk runs through the hoard of enemies to the back, where they start taking out the enemy back row forces.
There's a reason why the number 1 suggested feat for a monk is Mobility. It takes what monks are already awesome at, and makes it better, and you can do even more with that playstyle.
Every class has a distinct style of playing they were designed for (exccept the poor sorcerer and overlap with wizard, but that's neither here nor there). If you want to make the most out of the class, you need to roughly play like the class intends. And, when you do, the classes usually shine (except Ranger, but exception, not rule).Anyways, my point is that its easy to make the monk look bad when you don't grasp how to play the class well, and expect them to just wade into a field of mooks as if they were a Barbarian and punch their way out. The monk has more in common with an assassin than a fighter.
A note about monsters and high CON. Curiously, while there's a lot of monsters with high CON, and a lot with CON proficiency, there's surprisingly a fair amount that only have one or the other, giving you a fair chance on even those. At least until high level, where big bads expect you to spend a lot of energy to try and CC them.
What I'm saying is that I understand why people like Treatmonk criticize the Monk for being sub-optimal when most Monks rely so much on Ki and Stunning Strike is their only control/de-buff tool in their toolbox. As you acknowledge yourself, the higher level you go, the more monsters there are going to be with high CON. Stun by itself is too limited (and a bit boring) once you get into mid-tier play unless for some reason the DM decides to throw a bunch of enemy Wizards or other glass cannons at the party.
Sure, I don't dispute that. But isn't a shame that Monks get so few ASIs with which to spend on feats like Mobility? Should Variant Human be the default Monk to pick up Mobility at level 1? Because between level 1 and level 4 at least, Monks are generally pretty squishy a class without many good ranged attack options. Every feat is quite expensive for Monks because of how dependent they are on getting high stats for DEX and WIS. In this respect, the base Monk is worse than the base Ranger because at least the base Ranger gets access to armor and shield, has a d10 hit die, can benefit from a Fighting Style, and furthermore is easier to multi-class since spell slots are spell slots but Ki doesn't match up with any other class's features.
Well, I don't really follow the optimal game, but I've found that most of the time? "Not enough ki-points" is usually the result of not enough short rests, and the game is balanced around the assumption you get one short rest per two encounters. Which is usually something you can't count on in reality. I can't tell you how many time I've gotten frustrated as a bard or warlock when we never short rested. Bleh. So, yeah. Short rests are something that vary from game to game, so optimizers can't plan on it, so it kind of gets assumed there are none, and that does hurt evaluations of the monk, etc. But that's less to do with actual number crunching, and more to do with playstyles. The number of rests change everything.
I mean, that also ties into the higher levels with high Con. You have more ki points, which means you have more to spend on trying to strike that boss (or whatever) to stun them, which works out roughly the same as low levels, tbh. Again, short rests are the bottle neck here. Though, I do find that, as you get higher and higher level, you don't just encounter large amounts of meat heads to fight. The casters have far too many tools to take them down, so the DM has to mix things up to make it a challenge. Tactics that work below level 7 are rather laughable at levels 11+. So, it becomes even more important to have diverse enemy parties, which in turn allows the monk to shine. Its not even glass cannons; but they're just the most easily recognizable targets you need to hit.
Boring? Well, *eyes the warlock, fighter, barbarian, etc* Yeah. Boring is kind of a theme with a lot of core class abilities.
But when all is said and done, I do hear a lot of stories about people loving the monk in game, and frustration with a lot of DMs who see their BBEGs get stun locked by the monk, and complain about it being OP more than they complain about it being too weak.
Well, no less than anyone else, really. I mean, Fighter gets a bunch, but that's their advantage as a class. Everyone else gets the same number of ASI, and while not all classes need two stats as much as monk does, no one can ignore all but one stat. Plus, I'd say that monks are the same squishy as anyone else at those low levels; its dangerous for pretty much everyone at low levels, though in different ways. Plus, monks get a short bow and can run faster than most monsters, letting them kite attackers without ranged options of their own, so I wouldn't say they have bad ranged options.
Variant Human is probably the default monk race, but that's more the fault of there being crap options for monks in terms of race, plus the monk as a class, is based on the old Kung Fu / xianxia type of stories, and those are predominantly humans, so thematically humans are the default monk race anyways. Though, there's lots of love for tabaxi and aarakocra monks, I notice, but they're not... purrfect. Sorry, had to.
If your Monk only has 2 Ki points and your AC is crap, your character doesn't have many options to be effective in combat except to hope for to kill whatever you're fighting really fast. (Not likely w/ a 1d4+2 or +3 to damage.) I played a Lizardfolk Monk at 2nd level. A small party of three. Going against 6 orcs. Orcs. My character was the first to go down. I observed the same thing in another game with another player playing a Drow Monk at 2nd and 3rd level. She was always the first one to go down. Gee, I wonder why.
You mentioned kiting monsters using a short bow. Is that doable? Yes, but it's ineffective. Only the Kensei Monk can boost ranged damage effectively. The main argument of most people against changes to the base Monk class's damage die is that Stunning Strike is powerful and having lots of attacks gets you multiple chances to connect for that Stun. But going ranged prevents you from doing that very thing. And unlike Fighters and Rangers, you don't benefit from the Archery Fighting style and unlike Rogues, you don't get sneak attack damage. IOW, asking most Monks to go for ranged attacks over melee attacks is already admitting to how the Monk lacks survivability and effectiveness relative to the weapon-centric classes.
Mobile is a good feat but if you have multiple opponents clustered and you are unable to maneuver into place so that only the one you are attacking is within 5 feet, when you move out you are still subject to OA from the other opponent(s) and your AC isn’t great. Mobile is only good on the one you attack. In that case you either eat the OA or spend Ki to disengage or patient defense and weather the storm.
It seems, at least at our table, so far it isn’t a couple enemies spread out but typically 5-8 possibly more and rarely do we end up one on one. So multiple enemies are on each character. Not all the time, depending on terrain or marching order or initiative order that allows you to move before the enemy closes the distance.
My next character is definitely going to be a Monk though and will use others advice for tactics on the battlefield.
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