What is crap about your AC? It should be a 16, which is slightly better than most skirmishers in light armour. It's not as good as a fighter with sword and board, but if you wanted that why play a skirmisher class. At low levels Rogues & Monks are going to go down more easily, that is just going to happen. Six orcs versus a party of 3 Lvl2 characters IS a deadly encounter, so someone is going down, and it's most likely to be squishy skirmishers or spellcasters.
Yes, the Monk is suboptimal, but honestly only at levels 10 and above when it's damage dealing is no longer keeping up with other classes.
D&D is a game you play for fun. So if you find playing a tank fun, then play a tank. Playing a Monk (or indeed a Rogue) will just make you miserable.
If your Monk only has 2 Ki points and your AC is crap, your character doesn't have many options to be effective in combat except to hope for to kill whatever you're fighting really fast.
That's just about every level 2 character ever. Consequence of being low level. That's how the lowest levels are meant to play. Feature, not flaw.
You mentioned kiting monsters using a short bow. Is that doable? Yes, but it's ineffective
Helps keep you alive at low levels; that's why you brought it up ranged options originally after all. Context.
I never made the argument that Stunning is weak. What I said was that its too dependent on the enemy having a relatively low CON stat to be reliable.
And I said that, in my experience, you almost always have non-high CON options in most battles, or you're fighting a boss (which you'll want to burn through for getting rid of Legendary Resistnces). Fighting hoards of muscle heads falls off as valid DM tactics as time goes on. And, at high levels, you have more ki to try and stun with, raising the chances of stunning over a single turn.
Also, you're completely ignoring everything I wrote about the AC of the Monk being a problem.
Sorry, I don't see anything about AC from you other than occasionally as part of a different conversation.
Either way, I've said it before, I'll say it again - Skirmishers. Not tanks. Not even dodge tanks. Mobility (not the feat) is king. Don't stand around and get hit. Run up a wall if you need to. You literally get that as a class feature. Use it. Dodge in an emergency. Don't get pinned down.
Also, Rogues with max DEX and no magic armor max out at 18AC, which requires 2 ASI. Same as monk. Generally Monk start off at AC 16, while everyone else starts off at AC 14 (16 with shield). Mathwise, you keep pace with your contemporaries, rogue and ranger, with a higher cap. You want more AC, get magic items like everyone else.
Mobile is a good feat but if you have multiple opponents clustered and you are unable to maneuver into place so that only the one you are attacking is within 5 feet, when you move out you are still subject to OA from the other opponent(s) and your AC isn’t great. Mobile is only good on the one you attack. In that case you either eat the OA or spend Ki to disengage or patient defense and weather the storm.
Yeah, that's true, but that's why I keep harping on about being a skirmisher. The class is designed to handle that situation like a rogue - ie by running out of it. Or jumping. Monks have the ability to literally backflip over people's heads. Monks need to be moving, not stationary. Punch and run. That is why Mobile is such a good feat - helps prevent you from getting surrounded in the first place.
Slight misconception about Mobile though - you prevent OAs from everyone you attack, not just one person. So, a lvl5 monk can attack 3 people, 4 with ki, who then can't attack back when you flee.
My question to the OP is, if you think that your damage is going to be subpar, and you seem to care about that...why are you making a monk as a backup character?
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My question to the OP is, if you think that your damage is going to be subpar, and you seem to care about that...why are you making a monk as a backup character?
Gotcha journalism at its finest.
Because I haven't played one before. The point of this thread was to discuss if buffing the monk a bit would be reasonable. Not whether or not I should play one. Or are you saying you believe the damage is subpar?
Either way, I've said it before, I'll say it again - Skirmishers. Not tanks. Not even dodge tanks. Mobility (not the feat) is king. Don't stand around and get hit. Run up a wall if you need to. You literally get that as a class feature. Use it. Dodge in an emergency. Don't get pinned down.
Also, Rogues with max DEX and no magic armor max out at 18AC, which requires 2 ASI. Same as monk. Generally Monk start off at AC 16, while everyone else starts off at AC 14 (16 with shield). Mathwise, you keep pace with your contemporaries, rogue and ranger, with a higher cap. You want more AC, get magic items like everyone else.
Running up walls only applies if there are walls to run up. It also does not help until you are 9th level, which is almost half way through your adventuring career. AND the feature does not let you stay on the wall; you still have to end you movement on a flat surface unless you are a Tabaxi. Running up walls is not equal to Spider Climb.
The difference is that Rogues get to Hide/Dash/Disengage as a bonus action without spending a resource and benefit from any magical light armor the party comes across. Monks have to spend Ki to Dodge/Disengage/Dash and can't benefit from any armor and are therefore more subject to the largess/favor of the DM. At low levels you easily run out of Ki. At high levels, I suppose that is somewhat less of an issue, just still dependent on getting frequent short rests.
Keep in mind that aside from Swashbucklers, most Rogues are still effective at range b/c of Sneak Attack. Only the Kensei Monk is truly effective with ranged weapons. Poor-cousin-of-Goku Sun Souls still have to be within 30' of foes to hit them.
If your Monk only has 2 Ki points and your AC is crap, your character doesn't have many options to be effective in combat except to hope for to kill whatever you're fighting really fast.
That's just about every level 2 character ever. Consequence of being low level. That's how the lowest levels are meant to play. Feature, not flaw.
You mentioned kiting monsters using a short bow. Is that doable? Yes, but it's ineffective
Helps keep you alive at low levels; that's why you brought it up ranged options originally after all. Context.
Nope. I've played and seen others play non-Monk PCs at 2nd level, 3rd, and 4th level characters quite well without going unconscious every other combat. Something about not needing to get in the face of the enemy to be effective or having more hit points and/or AC probably has something to do with that.
But keeping alive doesn't help the rest of the party when you have no AoE party buff spells or enemy debuff spells. It just helps you (until the monsters kill the rest of the party). And that paltry short bow damage is still <sad trombone> since you aren't able to Flurry of Blows from range, which is the main selling point of low level Monks.
My question to the OP is, if you think that your damage is going to be subpar, and you seem to care about that...why are you making a monk as a backup character?
Gotcha journalism at its finest.
Because I haven't played one before. The point of this thread was to discuss if buffing the monk a bit would be reasonable. Not whether or not I should play one. Or are you saying you believe the damage is subpar?
I'm saying that I don't have an opinion on it. I've not played one, nor seen one in action.
If you're not sure yourself, you definitely should not be buffing them based on the opinion of an optimizer, presenting a highly biased case in a video. IIRC, in the video it's also pointed out that while stunning strike doesn't work all that much in the CR game, I think it's also pointed out that character also has done the most damage of anyone in that game. I'm not sure how it could do the most damage and do not enough damage.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you're not sure yourself, you definitely should not be buffing them based on the opinion of an optimizer, presenting a highly biased case in a video.
Thats a fair point. I am admittedly an optimizer. So is everyone in the party and the DM. The drop in DPR around level 9 is so significant that it seemed worth addressing and bringing to the table for discussion.
I think it's also pointed out that character also has done the most damage of anyone in that game. I'm not sure how it could do the most damage and do not enough damage.
Im not sure what you mean here. I do know that he charts the damage using stunning strike Flurry of Blows on every attack and it excels above other classes until level 9, but then drops significantly. But im not exactly sure what part of the video youre referencing.
If you're not sure yourself, you definitely should not be buffing them based on the opinion of an optimizer, presenting a highly biased case in a video.
Thats a fair point. I am admittedly an optimizer. So is everyone in the party and the DM. The drop in DPR around level 9 is so significant that it seemed worth addressing and bringing to the table for discussion.
I think it's also pointed out that character also has done the most damage of anyone in that game. I'm not sure how it could do the most damage and do not enough damage.
Im not sure what you mean here. I do know that he charts the damage using stunning strike on every attack and it excels above other classes until level 9, but then drops significantly. But im not exactly sure what part of the video youre referencing.
The thing is, Monks are not a DPR class. They are an APR (attacks per round) and mobility class.They are designed to race through the enemy stunning them and moving through so that your allies can close in and reck face. And then on the next round race to the enemy’s back line magic users and force Concentration checks until they statistically have to fail one. Then the next round race to defend the friendly back lines too. They can be everywhere and hit everything. Max damage is not their thing. They are more of a battlefield controller that works using melee attacks.
If you're not sure yourself, you definitely should not be buffing them based on the opinion of an optimizer, presenting a highly biased case in a video.
Thats a fair point. I am admittedly an optimizer. So is everyone in the party and the DM. The drop in DPR around level 9 is so significant that it seemed worth addressing and bringing to the table for discussion.
I think it's also pointed out that character also has done the most damage of anyone in that game. I'm not sure how it could do the most damage and do not enough damage.
Im not sure what you mean here. I do know that he charts the damage using stunning strike on every attack and it excels above other classes until level 9, but then drops significantly. But im not exactly sure what part of the video youre referencing.
It might have been in the comments section below, my memory is hazy. I've not seen the actual data and I don't watch CR so I'm not sure where it all can be located. Either in the video or in the comments section of Treantmonk's video it's pointed out that while Stunning Strike is only landing ~1/3 of the time, the character in question is doing more damage than anyone else in the party. So, how can it both be not doing enough damage /and/ doing more damage than everyone else in the party, without those other character all being really really bad? Again, I have not seen the data, so I don't recall for certain. If you can find the data, it might prove enlightening.
I think that Treantmonk's presentation leaves much to be desired. While I personally do not like the monk for a variety of reasons and have no interest in playing one...what he presented in his video does not sway me either way. I need to see the value of the features in action to decide if I think it needs any love or not. I suspect, that the sum is greater than the parts would appear to demonstrate at first glance.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you're not sure yourself, you definitely should not be buffing them based on the opinion of an optimizer, presenting a highly biased case in a video.
Thats a fair point. I am admittedly an optimizer. So is everyone in the party and the DM. The drop in DPR around level 9 is so significant that it seemed worth addressing and bringing to the table for discussion.
I think it's also pointed out that character also has done the most damage of anyone in that game. I'm not sure how it could do the most damage and do not enough damage.
Im not sure what you mean here. I do know that he charts the damage using stunning strike on every attack and it excels above other classes until level 9, but then drops significantly. But im not exactly sure what part of the video youre referencing.
The thing is, Monks are not a DPR class. They are an APR (attacks per round) and mobility class.They are designed to race through the enemy stunning them and moving through so that your allies can close in and reck face. And then on the next round race to the enemy’s back line magic users and force Concentration checks until they statistically have to fail one. Then the next round race to defend the friendly back lines too. They can be everywhere and hit everything. Max damage is not their thing. They are more of a battlefield controller that works using melee attacks.
The video touches on those things and makes assertions that it can't do those things. The video was so biased that I can't give it any credence at all...and I usually enjoy his videos.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Mobile is a good feat but if you have multiple opponents clustered and you are unable to maneuver into place so that only the one you are attacking is within 5 feet, when you move out you are still subject to OA from the other opponent(s) and your AC isn’t great. Mobile is only good on the one you attack. In that case you either eat the OA or spend Ki to disengage or patient defense and weather the storm.
Yeah, that's true, but that's why I keep harping on about being a skirmisher. The class is designed to handle that situation like a rogue - ie by running out of it. Or jumping. Monks have the ability to literally backflip over people's heads. Monks need to be moving, not stationary. Punch and run. That is why Mobile is such a good feat - helps prevent you from getting surrounded in the first place.
Slight misconception about Mobile though - you prevent OAs from everyone you attack, not just one person. So, a lvl5 monk can attack 3 people, 4 with ki, who then can't attack back when you flee.
I hadn't thought of that, not having Mobile on a character before. In the end, though, is this as beneficial as focusing on 1 enemy. Many times people talk about focusing attacks to reduce the number of enemy attackers as fast as possible. A dead enemy cannot attack. However, since everyone is just as effective, combat-wise, with 1 hp as they are with full hp, would attacking 3 or 4 enemies and running away be, leaving them all to continue to attack your party, be the best way? I'm seriously asking as I haven't played a skirmisher type character before?
If you're not sure yourself, you definitely should not be buffing them based on the opinion of an optimizer, presenting a highly biased case in a video.
Thats a fair point. I am admittedly an optimizer. So is everyone in the party and the DM. The drop in DPR around level 9 is so significant that it seemed worth addressing and bringing to the table for discussion.
I think it's also pointed out that character also has done the most damage of anyone in that game. I'm not sure how it could do the most damage and do not enough damage.
Im not sure what you mean here. I do know that he charts the damage using stunning strike on every attack and it excels above other classes until level 9, but then drops significantly. But im not exactly sure what part of the video youre referencing.
The thing is, Monks are not a DPR class. They are an APR (attacks per round) and mobility class.They are designed to race through the enemy stunning them and moving through so that your allies can close in and reck face. And then on the next round race to the enemy’s back line magic users and force Concentration checks until they statistically have to fail one. Then the next round race to defend the friendly back lines too. They can be everywhere and hit everything. Max damage is not their thing. They are more of a battlefield controller that works using melee attacks.
That is a good point and one I hadn't considered. But with stunning strike only working around 1/3 the time (according to 1 statistical source) is it being as effective as it should? In combination to the quote from Mephista above at least taking 1 or 2 targets out by stunning seems a better option than just attacking and most likely leaving them all standing to attack your party.
With the exception of the Drunken Master, who gets a free disengage from Drunken Technique plus 10 extra feet of movement when using flurry of blows, it makes the Monk fairly dependent on the Mobile feat, it seems. Otherwise you are racing through the enemy collecting OA's.
So, a lvl5 monk can attack 3 people, 4 with ki....
Only as long as #s 3 & 4 are standing directly next to either number 1 or number 2. Remember, Flurry says “immediately” so those two attacks have to happen right after either one of the first two attack but before you move.
Also, you're completely ignoring everything I wrote about the AC of the Monk being a problem.
Sorry, I don't see anything about AC from you other than occasionally as part of a different conversation.
I mentioned ACs specifically b/c they are impacted by ASIs because of how reliant Monks are on trying to max out both DEX and WIS. It is not a different conversation because the # of ASIs that the Monk class gets is directly related to their AC improvement.
Also, you're completely ignoring everything I wrote about the AC of the Monk being a problem.
Sorry, I don't see anything about AC from you other than occasionally as part of a different conversation.
I mentioned ACs specifically b/c they are impacted by ASIs because of how reliant Monks are on trying to max out both DEX and WIS. It is not a different conversation because the # of ASIs that the Monk class gets is directly related to their AC improvement.
Depends on what kinda stats you start with. You go Wood Elf and roll an 18 and a 15 and your pretty much set with a 18 AC at 1st level.
That Wood Elf example with 18 DEX is purely luck based AND assuming you roll for stats. A lot of tables play point-buy or even standard array.
As such, your example is completely unreliable at most tables.
Saying that their AC is wholly dependent on ASIs is just as dubious. A lot of tables still roll for stats, including mine. My point being that there is no “one answer fits all.”
That Wood Elf example with 18 DEX is purely luck based AND assuming you roll for stats. A lot of tables play point-buy or even standard array.
As such, your example is completely unreliable at most tables.
That's no shock really. What I have seen online when people talk about a class with a poor reputation, defenders nearly always say "with my rolled stats" or "With this house rule" or "with this set of magic items I shouldn't have at this level" or a combination of the above I crush my foes. Those people don't understand that what holds true for them, because of the mitigating circumstances of their home game...doesn't necessarily hold true for other people, and those other people aren't necessarily doing it wrong.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That Wood Elf example with 18 DEX is purely luck based AND assuming you roll for stats. A lot of tables play point-buy or even standard array.
As such, your example is completely unreliable at most tables.
That's no shock really. What I have seen online when people talk about a class with a poor reputation, defenders nearly always say "with my rolled stats" or "With this house rule" or "with this set of magic items I shouldn't have at this level" or a combination of the above I crush my foes. Those people don't understand that what holds true for them, because of the mitigating circumstances of their home game...doesn't necessarily hold true for other people, and those other people aren't necessarily doing it wrong.
I never said what they did was wrong and rolling stats is by no means a houserule. And by making blanket statements about things assuming Point Buy or Standard Array and not considering the perfectly viable RAW option of rolling for stats it is no different than what you just accused me of: “[not] understand[ing] that what holds true for them, because of the mitigating circumstances of their home game... doesn't necessarily hold true for other people.”
In fact, the entire point of my statement was to point out that their assumption about how ASI dependent Monks are was a version of “[not] understand[ing] that what holds true for them, because of the mitigating circumstances of their home game... doesn't necessarily hold true for other people.”
I wasn't referring to your comment specifically, it's just a pattern I have noticed, so when I see someone defending a "weak" class, I tend to ignore their commentary if they have rolled stats, insane magic items or house rules in play.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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What is crap about your AC? It should be a 16, which is slightly better than most skirmishers in light armour. It's not as good as a fighter with sword and board, but if you wanted that why play a skirmisher class. At low levels Rogues & Monks are going to go down more easily, that is just going to happen. Six orcs versus a party of 3 Lvl2 characters IS a deadly encounter, so someone is going down, and it's most likely to be squishy skirmishers or spellcasters.
Yes, the Monk is suboptimal, but honestly only at levels 10 and above when it's damage dealing is no longer keeping up with other classes.
D&D is a game you play for fun. So if you find playing a tank fun, then play a tank. Playing a Monk (or indeed a Rogue) will just make you miserable.
That's just about every level 2 character ever. Consequence of being low level. That's how the lowest levels are meant to play. Feature, not flaw.
Helps keep you alive at low levels; that's why you brought it up ranged options originally after all. Context.
And I said that, in my experience, you almost always have non-high CON options in most battles, or you're fighting a boss (which you'll want to burn through for getting rid of Legendary Resistnces). Fighting hoards of muscle heads falls off as valid DM tactics as time goes on. And, at high levels, you have more ki to try and stun with, raising the chances of stunning over a single turn.
Sorry, I don't see anything about AC from you other than occasionally as part of a different conversation.
Either way, I've said it before, I'll say it again - Skirmishers. Not tanks. Not even dodge tanks. Mobility (not the feat) is king. Don't stand around and get hit. Run up a wall if you need to. You literally get that as a class feature. Use it. Dodge in an emergency. Don't get pinned down.
Also, Rogues with max DEX and no magic armor max out at 18AC, which requires 2 ASI. Same as monk. Generally Monk start off at AC 16, while everyone else starts off at AC 14 (16 with shield). Mathwise, you keep pace with your contemporaries, rogue and ranger, with a higher cap. You want more AC, get magic items like everyone else.
Yeah, that's true, but that's why I keep harping on about being a skirmisher. The class is designed to handle that situation like a rogue - ie by running out of it. Or jumping. Monks have the ability to literally backflip over people's heads. Monks need to be moving, not stationary. Punch and run. That is why Mobile is such a good feat - helps prevent you from getting surrounded in the first place.
Slight misconception about Mobile though - you prevent OAs from everyone you attack, not just one person. So, a lvl5 monk can attack 3 people, 4 with ki, who then can't attack back when you flee.
My question to the OP is, if you think that your damage is going to be subpar, and you seem to care about that...why are you making a monk as a backup character?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Gotcha journalism at its finest.
Because I haven't played one before. The point of this thread was to discuss if buffing the monk a bit would be reasonable. Not whether or not I should play one. Or are you saying you believe the damage is subpar?
Running up walls only applies if there are walls to run up. It also does not help until you are 9th level, which is almost half way through your adventuring career. AND the feature does not let you stay on the wall; you still have to end you movement on a flat surface unless you are a Tabaxi. Running up walls is not equal to Spider Climb.
The difference is that Rogues get to Hide/Dash/Disengage as a bonus action without spending a resource and benefit from any magical light armor the party comes across. Monks have to spend Ki to Dodge/Disengage/Dash and can't benefit from any armor and are therefore more subject to the largess/favor of the DM. At low levels you easily run out of Ki. At high levels, I suppose that is somewhat less of an issue, just still dependent on getting frequent short rests.
Keep in mind that aside from Swashbucklers, most Rogues are still effective at range b/c of Sneak Attack. Only the Kensei Monk is truly effective with ranged weapons. Poor-cousin-of-Goku Sun Souls still have to be within 30' of foes to hit them.
Nope. I've played and seen others play non-Monk PCs at 2nd level, 3rd, and 4th level characters quite well without going unconscious every other combat. Something about not needing to get in the face of the enemy to be effective or having more hit points and/or AC probably has something to do with that.
But keeping alive doesn't help the rest of the party when you have no AoE party buff spells or enemy debuff spells. It just helps you (until the monsters kill the rest of the party). And that paltry short bow damage is still <sad trombone> since you aren't able to Flurry of Blows from range, which is the main selling point of low level Monks.
I'm saying that I don't have an opinion on it. I've not played one, nor seen one in action.
If you're not sure yourself, you definitely should not be buffing them based on the opinion of an optimizer, presenting a highly biased case in a video. IIRC, in the video it's also pointed out that while stunning strike doesn't work all that much in the CR game, I think it's also pointed out that character also has done the most damage of anyone in that game. I'm not sure how it could do the most damage and do not enough damage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Thats a fair point. I am admittedly an optimizer. So is everyone in the party and the DM. The drop in DPR around level 9 is so significant that it seemed worth addressing and bringing to the table for discussion.
Im not sure what you mean here. I do know that he charts the damage using
stunning strikeFlurry of Blows on every attack and it excels above other classes until level 9, but then drops significantly. But im not exactly sure what part of the video youre referencing.The thing is, Monks are not a DPR class. They are an APR (attacks per round) and mobility class.They are designed to race through the enemy stunning them and moving through so that your allies can close in and reck face. And then on the next round race to the enemy’s back line magic users and force Concentration checks until they statistically have to fail one. Then the next round race to defend the friendly back lines too. They can be everywhere and hit everything. Max damage is not their thing. They are more of a battlefield controller that works using melee attacks.
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It might have been in the comments section below, my memory is hazy. I've not seen the actual data and I don't watch CR so I'm not sure where it all can be located. Either in the video or in the comments section of Treantmonk's video it's pointed out that while Stunning Strike is only landing ~1/3 of the time, the character in question is doing more damage than anyone else in the party. So, how can it both be not doing enough damage /and/ doing more damage than everyone else in the party, without those other character all being really really bad? Again, I have not seen the data, so I don't recall for certain. If you can find the data, it might prove enlightening.
I think that Treantmonk's presentation leaves much to be desired. While I personally do not like the monk for a variety of reasons and have no interest in playing one...what he presented in his video does not sway me either way. I need to see the value of the features in action to decide if I think it needs any love or not. I suspect, that the sum is greater than the parts would appear to demonstrate at first glance.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The video touches on those things and makes assertions that it can't do those things. The video was so biased that I can't give it any credence at all...and I usually enjoy his videos.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I hadn't thought of that, not having Mobile on a character before. In the end, though, is this as beneficial as focusing on 1 enemy. Many times people talk about focusing attacks to reduce the number of enemy attackers as fast as possible. A dead enemy cannot attack. However, since everyone is just as effective, combat-wise, with 1 hp as they are with full hp, would attacking 3 or 4 enemies and running away be, leaving them all to continue to attack your party, be the best way? I'm seriously asking as I haven't played a skirmisher type character before?
That is a good point and one I hadn't considered. But with stunning strike only working around 1/3 the time (according to 1 statistical source) is it being as effective as it should? In combination to the quote from Mephista above at least taking 1 or 2 targets out by stunning seems a better option than just attacking and most likely leaving them all standing to attack your party.
With the exception of the Drunken Master, who gets a free disengage from Drunken Technique plus 10 extra feet of movement when using flurry of blows, it makes the Monk fairly dependent on the Mobile feat, it seems. Otherwise you are racing through the enemy collecting OA's.
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Only as long as #s 3 & 4 are standing directly next to either number 1 or number 2. Remember, Flurry says “immediately” so those two attacks have to happen right after either one of the first two attack but before you move.
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I mentioned ACs specifically b/c they are impacted by ASIs because of how reliant Monks are on trying to max out both DEX and WIS. It is not a different conversation because the # of ASIs that the Monk class gets is directly related to their AC improvement.
Depends on what kinda stats you start with. You go Wood Elf and roll an 18 and a 15 and your pretty much set with a 18 AC at 1st level.
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That Wood Elf example with 18 DEX is purely luck based AND assuming you roll for stats. A lot of tables play point-buy or even standard array.
As such, your example is completely unreliable at most tables.
Saying that their AC is wholly dependent on ASIs is just as dubious. A lot of tables still roll for stats, including mine. My point being that there is no “one answer fits all.”
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That's no shock really. What I have seen online when people talk about a class with a poor reputation, defenders nearly always say "with my rolled stats" or "With this house rule" or "with this set of magic items I shouldn't have at this level" or a combination of the above I crush my foes. Those people don't understand that what holds true for them, because of the mitigating circumstances of their home game...doesn't necessarily hold true for other people, and those other people aren't necessarily doing it wrong.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I never said what they did was wrong and rolling stats is by no means a houserule. And by making blanket statements about things assuming Point Buy or Standard Array and not considering the perfectly viable RAW option of rolling for stats it is no different than what you just accused me of: “[not] understand[ing] that what holds true for them, because of the mitigating circumstances of their home game... doesn't necessarily hold true for other people.”
In fact, the entire point of my statement was to point out that their assumption about how ASI dependent Monks are was a version of “[not] understand[ing] that what holds true for them, because of the mitigating circumstances of their home game... doesn't necessarily hold true for other people.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I wasn't referring to your comment specifically, it's just a pattern I have noticed, so when I see someone defending a "weak" class, I tend to ignore their commentary if they have rolled stats, insane magic items or house rules in play.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha