what was proposed in this thread was a slight bump in martial arts dice size, which i completely agree with. monks are useful in their own quirky ways, it's like how everyone says "oh, there are things you can do that can make X class to bard stuff better than an actual bard" while bard is one of the strongest out of the spellcasters
what was proposed in this thread was a slight bump in martial arts dice size, which i completely agree with. monks are useful in their own quirky ways, it's like how everyone says "oh, there are things you can do that can make X class to bard stuff better than an actual bard" while bard is one of the strongest out of the spellcasters
Yeah I do think a simple bump in damage will make them feel better to most. I think if it's from a better die or more attacks I don't have a strong opinion either way. More attacks means more stun which is limited by ki anyway so I'm good with either.
what was proposed in this thread was a slight bump in martial arts dice size, which i completely agree with. monks are useful in their own quirky ways, it's like how everyone says "oh, there are things you can do that can make X class to bard stuff better than an actual bard" while bard is one of the strongest out of the spellcasters
Yeah I do think a simple bump in damage will make them feel better to most. I think if it's from a better die or more attacks I don't have a strong opinion either way. More attacks means more stun which is limited by ki anyway so I'm good with either.
Well, of course making an already excellent class even better will make them feel better to most people, no-one is denying that (just like giving Fighters more attacks or Wizards more spell slots would). What this thread is about is whether or not it is needed. The objective answer is no.
A fifth level monk gets four attacks. That is as many as a level 20 Fighter. At level 20 the fighter would on an average turn get four attacks that will do 1D10+ability bonus (perhaps 5 but then the damage die would be a D8 at most) whereas the Monk can at level 17 dish out four attacks at 1D10+ability bonus per turn for 17 turns. Sure, the Fighter can action surge twice but the Monk can go on for a lot longer.
what was proposed in this thread was a slight bump in martial arts dice size, which i completely agree with. monks are useful in their own quirky ways, it's like how everyone says "oh, there are things you can do that can make X class to bard stuff better than an actual bard" while bard is one of the strongest out of the spellcasters
Yeah I do think a simple bump in damage will make them feel better to most. I think if it's from a better die or more attacks I don't have a strong opinion either way. More attacks means more stun which is limited by ki anyway so I'm good with either.
Well, of course making an already excellent class even better will make them feel better to most people, no-one is denying that (just like giving Fighters more attacks or Wizards more spell slots would). What this thread is about is whether or not it is needed. The objective answer is no.
A fifth level monk gets four attacks. That is as many as a level 20 Fighter. At level 20 the fighter would on an average turn get four attacks that will do 1D10+ability bonus (perhaps 5 but then the damage die would be a D8 at most) whereas the Monk can at level 17 dish out four attacks at 1D10+ability bonus per turn for 17 turns. Sure, the Fighter can action surge twice but the Monk can go on for a lot longer.
I don't have a particularly strong opinion about whether Monks should do more damage, but for the sake of fairness, I do feel it's important to point out that Fighters do get more ASIs to spend on feats AND feats generally are more applicable to Fighters anyway b/c most combat feats work better with the weapon-centric classes: Any feat with the word "Master" in the name generally excludes Monks. Savage Attacker is also largely useless as Monks' attack die is rarely large enough to be worth spending a feat on it.
what was proposed in this thread was a slight bump in martial arts dice size, which i completely agree with. monks are useful in their own quirky ways, it's like how everyone says "oh, there are things you can do that can make X class to bard stuff better than an actual bard" while bard is one of the strongest out of the spellcasters
Yeah I do think a simple bump in damage will make them feel better to most. I think if it's from a better die or more attacks I don't have a strong opinion either way. More attacks means more stun which is limited by ki anyway so I'm good with either.
Well, of course making an already excellent class even better will make them feel better to most people, no-one is denying that (just like giving Fighters more attacks or Wizards more spell slots would). What this thread is about is whether or not it is needed. The objective answer is no.
A fifth level monk gets four attacks. That is as many as a level 20 Fighter. At level 20 the fighter would on an average turn get four attacks that will do 1D10+ability bonus (perhaps 5 but then the damage die would be a D8 at most) whereas the Monk can at level 17 dish out four attacks at 1D10+ability bonus per turn for 17 turns. Sure, the Fighter can action surge twice but the Monk can go on for a lot longer.
I don't have a particularly strong opinion about whether Monks should do more damage, but for the sake of fairness, I do feel it's important to point out that Fighters do get more ASIs to spend on feats AND feats generally are more applicable to Fighters anyway b/c most combat feats work better with the weapon-centric classes: Any feat with the word "Master" in the name generally excludes Monks. Savage Attacker is also largely useless as Monks' attack die is rarely large enough to be worth spending a feat on it.
Not sure what the Fighters' extra ASIs have to do with anything but yes, Fighters have other class abilities (namely, in this case, more ASIs) than the Monk. That's a part of the game. Does this allow Fighters to get more stuff via feats? Yes. But Monks get a bunch of cool stuff that Fighters don't get, just for being Monks! :O Amazing! It's almost like the game is designed to give the different classes different abilities that make them different from each other to allow for a more varied game or something! ;)
Not sure what the Fighters' extra ASIs have to do with anything but yes, Fighters have other class abilities (namely, in this case, more ASIs) than the Monk. That's a part of the game. Does this allow Fighters to get more stuff via feats? Yes. But Monks get a bunch of cool stuff that Fighters don't get, just for being Monks! :O Amazing! It's almost like the game is designed to give the different classes different abilities that make them different from each other to allow for a more varied game or something! ;)
As I have pointed out, ASIs have to do with survivability, esp. for Monks due to their AC issues and not being able to wear armor or use a shield. My argument is that Monks' survivability is not well balanced, particularly at low levels. Boosting their starting hp, changing how many Ki points they start off with, or tweaking their Ki recovery ability to not be as dependent on short rests would help with that. And adding another ASI to the base class would help with that at later levels while ensuring that Monks still get access to feats (though many combat feats simply don't apply to Monks, sadly).
As I go through various Monk threads I’m more and more shifting to the view that Monks are not as bad as I had originally thought. That’s not to say that I think they are perfect and I still think they could use some tweaks.
I would still stand with my original thought that Patient Defense and Step of the Wind should be free. Again I compare it to rogues who get the similar ability except Hide instead of Dodge. I guess a case could be made to keep PD still a Ki point as it automatically works, whereas Hide still requires a roll and could fail. But SotW should definitely be free.
And I think the damage die could go up. Sure, at level 5 you can attack 4 times but then you are standing toe to toe with your enemy like a fighter but with worse AC, most likely. If you attempt to stun on those attacks you are using at least 2 Ki (Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike) and if it works great, if not and you have to try it again you have now used up Over half your Ki pool in one turn. A couple rounds in you are done and are back down to 2 attacks per round doing d6 or d8 if you have a quarter staff. This gets mitigated as you level up and get more Ki but slowly.
As I go through various Monk threads I’m more and more shifting to the view that Monks are not as bad as I had originally thought. That’s not to say that I think they are perfect and I still think they could use some tweaks.
I would still stand with my original thought that Patient Defense and Step of the Wind should be free. Again I compare it to rogues who get the similar ability except Hide instead of Dodge. I guess a case could be made to keep PD still a Ki point as it automatically works, whereas Hide still requires a roll and could fail. But SotW should definitely be free.
And I think the damage die could go up. Sure, at level 5 you can attack 4 times but then you are standing toe to toe with your enemy like a fighter but with worse AC, most likely. If you attempt to stun on those attacks you are using at least 2 Ki (Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike) and if it works great, if not and you have to try it again you have now used up Over half your Ki pool in one turn. A couple rounds in you are done and are back down to 2 attacks per round doing d6 or d8 if you have a quarter staff. This gets mitigated as you level up and get more Ki but slowly.
Yeah it's definitely not the same as a fighters 4 attacks as they will most likely be using the damage feats. In a featless game they are fairly close but fighter is fairly terrible in a featless game.
Overall monk is not bad I agree but damage wise they are in the basement overall for martials due to poor feat support and the fact they have to Max two stats to be their best where a fighter usually just needs one.
I agree with your conclusion that's it is a fair bump.
As I have pointed out, ASIs have to do with survivability, esp. for Monks due to their AC issues and not being able to wear armor or use a shield. My argument is that Monks' survivability is not well balanced, particularly at low levels. Boosting their starting hp, changing how many Ki points they start off with, or tweaking their Ki recovery ability to not be as dependent on short rests would help with that. And adding another ASI to the base class would help with that at later levels while ensuring that Monks still get access to feats (though many combat feats simply don't apply to Monks, sadly).
Fighter ASIs have nothing to do with Monk survivability. Monks don't need to wear armour or use shields, that's built into the class. They also don't have any problems at lower levels that other classes also don't have at lower levels. That's what being a low level character is supposed to be like. But yes, making an already pretty darn awesome class even better would of course make that class better.
I will say that I do think a d10 Hit Die would have been appropriate for Monks.
That would make them better than Fighters and some Rangers and Paladins in a lot of ways. Monks don't need that.
I would still stand with my original thought that Patient Defense and Step of the Wind should be free. Again I compare it to rogues who get the similar ability except Hide instead of Dodge. I guess a case could be made to keep PD still a Ki point as it automatically works, whereas Hide still requires a roll and could fail. But SotW should definitely be free.
Giving Monks free Dodge actions at level 2 would make them insanely powerful at low level and even worse at higher levels. You're basically giving them a free Cloak of Displacement at level 2. Also giving them an extra 30-60 feet of movement per turn is also pretty damn powerful. Especially at higher levels when they can also run up walls and over water.
And I think the damage die could go up. Sure, at level 5 you can attack 4 times but then you are standing toe to toe with your enemy like a fighter but with worse AC, most likely. If you attempt to stun on those attacks you are using at least 2 Ki (Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike) and if it works great, if not and you have to try it again you have now used up Over half your Ki pool in one turn. A couple rounds in you are done and are back down to 2 attacks per round doing d6 or d8 if you have a quarter staff. This gets mitigated as you level up and get more Ki but slowly.
If that is how you chose to spend your expendable resources then sure. But that is not any different from a spell caster using up all their spell slots as quick as possible. Bad player choices is not a downside of the class.
Overall monk is not bad I agree but damage wise they are in the basement overall for martials due to poor feat support and the fact they have to Max two stats to be their best where a fighter usually just needs one.
Monks don't *need* to max out two stats any more than Fighters do. And neither class needs to max more than one stat for their damage. Monks also get a lot of other cool stuff that Fighters don't. That's the way the game is designed. And as already shown, Monks aren't even that bad when it comes to dealing damage and even if they aren't the best, they were never supposed to be. If you want to be a damage dealing monk, play a Kensei or Open Hand monk. Or if it's just about getting some extra damage at level 20, take a level of Rogue, problem solved.
Monks absolutely need to Max both Dexterity and Wisdom. It's a huge part of their damage, control, and defense. A fighter can max Dex or Str by level 6 and be done. Monks are very dependant on their Stunning strike DC and their AC is based on wisdom and dexterity. A fighter can always just put a shield up regardless of subclass. Monks can Dodge as a bonus action but that is time not spent stunning.
As I have pointed out, ASIs have to do with survivability, esp. for Monks due to their AC issues and not being able to wear armor or use a shield. My argument is that Monks' survivability is not well balanced, particularly at low levels. Boosting their starting hp, changing how many Ki points they start off with, or tweaking their Ki recovery ability to not be as dependent on short rests would help with that. And adding another ASI to the base class would help with that at later levels while ensuring that Monks still get access to feats (though many combat feats simply don't apply to Monks, sadly).
Fighter ASIs have nothing to do with Monk survivability. Monks don't need to wear armour or use shields, that's built into the class. They also don't have any problems at lower levels that other classes also don't have at lower levels. That's what being a low level character is supposed to be like. But yes, making an already pretty darn awesome class even better would of course make that class better.
I will say that I do think a d10 Hit Die would have been appropriate for Monks.
That would make them better than Fighters and some Rangers and Paladins in a lot of ways. Monks don't need that.
I would still stand with my original thought that Patient Defense and Step of the Wind should be free. Again I compare it to rogues who get the similar ability except Hide instead of Dodge. I guess a case could be made to keep PD still a Ki point as it automatically works, whereas Hide still requires a roll and could fail. But SotW should definitely be free.
Giving Monks free Dodge actions at level 2 would make them insanely powerful at low level and even worse at higher levels. You're basically giving them a free Cloak of Displacement at level 2. Also giving them an extra 30-60 feet of movement per turn is also pretty damn powerful. Especially at higher levels when they can also run up walls and over water.
And I think the damage die could go up. Sure, at level 5 you can attack 4 times but then you are standing toe to toe with your enemy like a fighter but with worse AC, most likely. If you attempt to stun on those attacks you are using at least 2 Ki (Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike) and if it works great, if not and you have to try it again you have now used up Over half your Ki pool in one turn. A couple rounds in you are done and are back down to 2 attacks per round doing d6 or d8 if you have a quarter staff. This gets mitigated as you level up and get more Ki but slowly.
If that is how you chose to spend your expendable resources then sure. But that is not any different from a spell caster using up all their spell slots as quick as possible. Bad player choices is not a downside of the class.
Overall monk is not bad I agree but damage wise they are in the basement overall for martials due to poor feat support and the fact they have to Max two stats to be their best where a fighter usually just needs one.
Monks don't *need* to max out two stats any more than Fighters do. And neither class needs to max more than one stat for their damage. Monks also get a lot of other cool stuff that Fighters don't. That's the way the game is designed. And as already shown, Monks aren't even that bad when it comes to dealing damage and even if they aren't the best, they were never supposed to be. If you want to be a damage dealing monk, play a Kensei or Open Hand monk. Or if it's just about getting some extra damage at level 20, take a level of Rogue, problem solved.
Well, I did say I can see the case of the Ki cost for Patient Defense (bolded above), just as it is currently. And, yes, monks get a speed boost, it's part of their class, so how is using Step of the Wind as a bonus action to Dash or Disengage for no Ki any different than a Rogue using Cunning Action and using the same bonus action to do the same exact Dash or Disengage? Are you saying that because the Monk class gives increased movement that Dash has to punish the Monk for their class feature by requiring them to use Ki? Maybe me saying "free" made you think I meant it wouldn't cost a bonus action? I just meant it would not use a Ki point.
And I'm not sure what you are saying about "bad player choices". I was commenting on another comment where they said at 5th level a monk can attack 4 times where a fighter can only twice. But two of those attacks use a Ki point and a Bonus Action to FoB. But then you can't use your bonus action to disengage so you are basically a fighter with lower AC (a fighter can start at level 1 with Chain Mail and Shield-AC18 and focus solely on STR for damage, whereas a Monk has to boost their WIS and DEX to 16 each just to get an AC of 16. And then focus on one to increase to hit and damage (DEX) or focus on the other to get a better DC so the stun can land (WIS). Then at level 4, boost one or the other to get AC 17 At this point the fighter probably has the 200gp to get Splint and their AC is no 19). And others have said that they have control options via Stunning Strike. But again, you are using Ki and if you use it in conjunction with FoB, if you are engaged by multiple enemies, you can run out of Ki quickly, at that level, and then you are back to 2 attacks, just like the fighter.
Well, I did say I can see the case of the Ki cost for Patient Defense (bolded above), just as it is currently. And, yes, monks get a speed boost, it's part of their class, so how is using Step of the Wind as a bonus action to Dash or Disengage for no Ki any different than a Rogue using Cunning Action and using the same bonus action to do the same exact Dash or Disengage? Are you saying that because the Monk class gives increased movement that Dash has to punish the Monk for their class feature by requiring them to use Ki? Maybe me saying "free" made you think I meant it wouldn't cost a bonus action? I just meant it would not use a Ki point.
The difference is that Monks already have a much higher movement speed and have a bunch of other mobility options that Rogues do not. And no, I am saying nothing of the kind so you candrop the silly strawmen arguments. High levels already do have basically what amounts to a "free" dash action. Giving them even more speed would make them even more powerful and as has already been pointed out, Monks are already really, really, really good.
And I'm not sure what you are saying about "bad player choices". I was commenting on another comment where they said at 5th level a monk can attack 4 times where a fighter can only twice. But two of those attacks use a Ki point and a Bonus Action to FoB. But then you can't use your bonus action to disengage so you are basically a fighter with lower AC (a fighter can start at level 1 with Chain Mail and Shield-AC18 and focus solely on STR for damage, whereas a Monk has to boost their WIS and DEX to 16 each just to get an AC of 16. And then focus on one to increase to hit and damage (DEX) or focus on the other to get a better DC so the stun can land (WIS). Then at level 4, boost one or the other to get AC 17 At this point the fighter probably has the 200gp to get Splint and their AC is no 19). And others have said that they have control options via Stunning Strike. But again, you are using Ki and if you use it in conjunction with FoB, if you are engaged by multiple enemies, you can run out of Ki quickly, at that level, and then you are back to 2 attacks, just like the fighter.
No, you are not "basically a fighter "with lower AC". First of all you already have more attacks than said fighter, more mobility options and more control options. Yes, some of these options cost resources but the fact that the player chooses to spend these resources unwisely (for example, doing patient defence instead of just the ordinary dodge action) is not a flaw of the class. The statistical difference in HP is a mere 4 points but once again you're doing the flawed comparison between a frontline tank class as the fighter to a mobile skirmisher as the monk. The two classes are not the same, they are not supposed to be the same and so the two have different strengths and weaknesses. You do realize this, don't you?
As for maxing stats, you are now moving the goalposts. Monks don't have to max out Wisdom and Dexterity to be good monks and fighters who only focuses on strength and ignores, says con and dex, will quite often not be very good fighters.
Either way, we are back to the fact that Fighters and Monks (or Monks and Rogues) are very different classes with very different purposes and saying that Monks need improvement just because the Monks can't do everything a Fighter and Rogue can, just as good as Fighter and Rogue, is just silly. If you want a class that is able to do what a Fighter or a Rogue can, play as a fighter or a Rogue. It's literally that simple.
ASI and Feats do matter. Fighters because of their base class load out do not need more than one stat to maximize most of their load out.
Dex fighters and just need dex for AC, Attack, Damage, and even DC in the case of battlemaster abilities.
Rogues just need DEX for the same reason.
STR fighters are the same. They do not need a second stat to make themselves viable.
Monks are highly dependent on both DEX and WIS to maintain a consistent AC as unlike the fighter they cannot augment their AC with shields or other forms of armor (Medium Armor Barbarians)
Monks are the only martial class that cannot boost their AC in some appreciable way without fully relying on their stats to do so. Because of this the opportunity cost for NOT maxing their stats is much much higher than the other classes.
If they take a feat they are losing out on damage, AC, and potentially their DC to their stunning strike which as you stated is their bread and butter.
No other class feels this opportunity cost as much as the monk and its not even close.
Monks have the lowest damage output of any martial by a significant margin. They do not have a way to augment damage from their attacks as the rest of the martial classes do.
From levels 1-4 they are no more effective at basically anything than a fighter as a fighter can literally make the same amount of attacks as them with two weapon fighting with action surge and can even match or beat their damage with increased accuracy (Archery Style) or damage buffs (Dueling and GWF). Their pool of ki is so small at these levels they cannot reliable rely on flurry of blows for sustained output especially if they are also relying on this ki pool for defensive help (Patient Defense).
Monks then get Stunning Strike at level 5 which is a big boost of power for sure and I would even argue that monks are balanced from 5th level to say 11th level. They get a decent amount of ki at this point and can reasonable choose what to do. No changes required IMO during this time period.
11th level is where they start to fall again until they get their subclass feature at 17th level. I haven't personally played this area with monks but based on the stats presented from the Treantmonk video I could see where they could start to fall hard when the rest of the martial are getting significant boosts in damage at this level. Monks are capped at this point and do not have much item support to help. This is where +2 weapons start to come into play and there is no +2 option for fists which are becoming the monks best bet at this point.
By this time the fighter, rogue, paladin, and barbarian have significant increases to damage where a monk is left with their base kit of abilities...they can just do it more often.
ASI and Feats do matter. Fighters because of their base class load out do not need more than one stat to maximize most of their load out.
Monks have other cool stuff that makes up for the basic number of ASIs.
Dex fighters and just need dex for AC, Attack, Damage, and even DC in the case of battlemaster abilities.
Rogues just need DEX for the same reason.
STR fighters are the same. They do not need a second stat to make themselves viable.
Fighters need Con and any Fighter with a crappy Initiative is going to pay for it. And there's more to the game than combat and DPR.
Monks are highly dependent on both DEX and WIS to maintain a consistent AC as unlike the fighter they cannot augment their AC with shields or other forms of armor (Medium Armor Barbarians)
You can easily get a basic AC of 18 and still have at least one ASI over for a feat. You don't *need* to max your stats to have a viable character in 5E.
Monks are the only martial class that cannot boost their AC in some appreciable way without fully relying on their stats to do so. Because of this the opportunity cost for NOT maxing their stats is much much higher than the other classes.
Except all those lovely bracers of defence and rings and cloak of protection you mean? Not to mention the fact that Monks can do all of tehir cool monk shit while literally in the nude and all the other classes are reliant on equipment to be able to do even the most basic of things?
If they take a feat they are losing out on damage, AC, and potentially their DC to their stunning strike which as you stated is their bread and butter.
Who has stated what now? Who are you even replying to? :P
No other class feels this opportunity cost as much as the monk and its not even close.
Not really, but keep telling yourself that.
Monks have the lowest damage output of any martial by a significant margin. They do not have a way to augment damage from their attacks as the rest of the martial classes do.
Have you even read the rules for monks or fighters? Open hand have a literal save or die ability, Shadow monks can give themselves advantage every round, four elements have all sorts of tricks (albeit very costly ones), Kensei monks can sharpen their weapons, sun soul monks can pew-pew and drunken masters can get extra flurry of blows.
From levels 1-4 they are no more effective at basically anything than a fighter as a fighter can literally make the same amount of attacks as them with two weapon fighting with action surge and can even match or beat their damage with increased accuracy (Archery Style) or damage buffs (Dueling and GWF). Their pool of ki is so small at these levels they cannot reliable rely on flurry of blows for sustained output especially if they are also relying on this ki pool for defensive help (Patient Defense).
Monks can still bonus attack for two attacks per round which means that they have the same number of attacks as a dual wielding fighters. And Fighters are supposed to be extremely good at fighting. Why would Monks need to rival that? They have other things they excel at.
11th level is where they start to fall again until they get their subclass feature at 17th level. I haven't personally played this area with monks but based on the stats presented from the Treantmonk video I could see where they could start to fall hard when the rest of the martial are getting significant boosts in damage at this level. Monks are capped at this point and do not have much item support to help. This is where +2 weapons start to come into play and there is no +2 option for fists which are becoming the monks best bet at this point.
Again, you do realize that there is more to the game than just combat and that there is more to combat than just doing damage? Like, I don't know, being immune to certain types of damage or being much better at making saving throws against lots of different things? Or being able to move very, very fast over basically every surface?
By this time the fighter, rogue, paladin, and barbarian have significant increases to damage where a monk is left with their base kit of abilities...they can just do it more often.
Sure, if you ignore the subclass abilites and focus ONLY on damage. Which is quite a silly thing to do.
TLDR; You're willfully ignoring the strengths of the Monk class to make a point that holds no water. Monks still don't need a boost since they are one of the strongest classes in the game.
So your saying a monk needs two rare items to boost AC while a fighter just needs a shield?
OK...seems it may be pointless discussing at this point.
Have a good one!
Don't be silly. That was a response to your statement that there were no items which could boost the Monk's AC. You're also kind of making the point for me, fighters need equipment, monks do not. And if a fighter is using a shield they give offensive capabilites.
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what was proposed in this thread was a slight bump in martial arts dice size, which i completely agree with. monks are useful in their own quirky ways, it's like how everyone says "oh, there are things you can do that can make X class to bard stuff better than an actual bard"
while bard is one of the strongest out of the spellcasters
Yeah I do think a simple bump in damage will make them feel better to most. I think if it's from a better die or more attacks I don't have a strong opinion either way. More attacks means more stun which is limited by ki anyway so I'm good with either.
Well, of course making an already excellent class even better will make them feel better to most people, no-one is denying that (just like giving Fighters more attacks or Wizards more spell slots would). What this thread is about is whether or not it is needed. The objective answer is no.
A fifth level monk gets four attacks. That is as many as a level 20 Fighter. At level 20 the fighter would on an average turn get four attacks that will do 1D10+ability bonus (perhaps 5 but then the damage die would be a D8 at most) whereas the Monk can at level 17 dish out four attacks at 1D10+ability bonus per turn for 17 turns. Sure, the Fighter can action surge twice but the Monk can go on for a lot longer.
I don't have a particularly strong opinion about whether Monks should do more damage, but for the sake of fairness, I do feel it's important to point out that Fighters do get more ASIs to spend on feats AND feats generally are more applicable to Fighters anyway b/c most combat feats work better with the weapon-centric classes: Any feat with the word "Master" in the name generally excludes Monks. Savage Attacker is also largely useless as Monks' attack die is rarely large enough to be worth spending a feat on it.
Not sure what the Fighters' extra ASIs have to do with anything but yes, Fighters have other class abilities (namely, in this case, more ASIs) than the Monk. That's a part of the game. Does this allow Fighters to get more stuff via feats? Yes. But Monks get a bunch of cool stuff that Fighters don't get, just for being Monks! :O Amazing! It's almost like the game is designed to give the different classes different abilities that make them different from each other to allow for a more varied game or something! ;)
As I have pointed out, ASIs have to do with survivability, esp. for Monks due to their AC issues and not being able to wear armor or use a shield. My argument is that Monks' survivability is not well balanced, particularly at low levels. Boosting their starting hp, changing how many Ki points they start off with, or tweaking their Ki recovery ability to not be as dependent on short rests would help with that. And adding another ASI to the base class would help with that at later levels while ensuring that Monks still get access to feats (though many combat feats simply don't apply to Monks, sadly).
I will say that I do think a d10 Hit Die would have been appropriate for Monks.
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As I go through various Monk threads I’m more and more shifting to the view that Monks are not as bad as I had originally thought. That’s not to say that I think they are perfect and I still think they could use some tweaks.
I would still stand with my original thought that Patient Defense and Step of the Wind should be free. Again I compare it to rogues who get the similar ability except Hide instead of Dodge. I guess a case could be made to keep PD still a Ki point as it automatically works, whereas Hide still requires a roll and could fail. But SotW should definitely be free.
And I think the damage die could go up. Sure, at level 5 you can attack 4 times but then you are standing toe to toe with your enemy like a fighter but with worse AC, most likely. If you attempt to stun on those attacks you are using at least 2 Ki (Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike) and if it works great, if not and you have to try it again you have now used up Over half your Ki pool in one turn. A couple rounds in you are done and are back down to 2 attacks per round doing d6 or d8 if you have a quarter staff. This gets mitigated as you level up and get more Ki but slowly.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yeah it's definitely not the same as a fighters 4 attacks as they will most likely be using the damage feats. In a featless game they are fairly close but fighter is fairly terrible in a featless game.
Overall monk is not bad I agree but damage wise they are in the basement overall for martials due to poor feat support and the fact they have to Max two stats to be their best where a fighter usually just needs one.
I agree with your conclusion that's it is a fair bump.
If you run it let us know how it goes!
Fighter ASIs have nothing to do with Monk survivability. Monks don't need to wear armour or use shields, that's built into the class. They also don't have any problems at lower levels that other classes also don't have at lower levels. That's what being a low level character is supposed to be like. But yes, making an already pretty darn awesome class even better would of course make that class better.
That would make them better than Fighters and some Rangers and Paladins in a lot of ways. Monks don't need that.
Giving Monks free Dodge actions at level 2 would make them insanely powerful at low level and even worse at higher levels. You're basically giving them a free Cloak of Displacement at level 2. Also giving them an extra 30-60 feet of movement per turn is also pretty damn powerful. Especially at higher levels when they can also run up walls and over water.
If that is how you chose to spend your expendable resources then sure. But that is not any different from a spell caster using up all their spell slots as quick as possible. Bad player choices is not a downside of the class.
Monks don't *need* to max out two stats any more than Fighters do. And neither class needs to max more than one stat for their damage. Monks also get a lot of other cool stuff that Fighters don't. That's the way the game is designed. And as already shown, Monks aren't even that bad when it comes to dealing damage and even if they aren't the best, they were never supposed to be. If you want to be a damage dealing monk, play a Kensei or Open Hand monk. Or if it's just about getting some extra damage at level 20, take a level of Rogue, problem solved.
Monks absolutely need to Max both Dexterity and Wisdom. It's a huge part of their damage, control, and defense. A fighter can max Dex or Str by level 6 and be done. Monks are very dependant on their Stunning strike DC and their AC is based on wisdom and dexterity. A fighter can always just put a shield up regardless of subclass. Monks can Dodge as a bonus action but that is time not spent stunning.
Well, I did say I can see the case of the Ki cost for Patient Defense (bolded above), just as it is currently. And, yes, monks get a speed boost, it's part of their class, so how is using Step of the Wind as a bonus action to Dash or Disengage for no Ki any different than a Rogue using Cunning Action and using the same bonus action to do the same exact Dash or Disengage? Are you saying that because the Monk class gives increased movement that Dash has to punish the Monk for their class feature by requiring them to use Ki? Maybe me saying "free" made you think I meant it wouldn't cost a bonus action? I just meant it would not use a Ki point.
And I'm not sure what you are saying about "bad player choices". I was commenting on another comment where they said at 5th level a monk can attack 4 times where a fighter can only twice. But two of those attacks use a Ki point and a Bonus Action to FoB. But then you can't use your bonus action to disengage so you are basically a fighter with lower AC (a fighter can start at level 1 with Chain Mail and Shield-AC18 and focus solely on STR for damage, whereas a Monk has to boost their WIS and DEX to 16 each just to get an AC of 16. And then focus on one to increase to hit and damage (DEX) or focus on the other to get a better DC so the stun can land (WIS). Then at level 4, boost one or the other to get AC 17 At this point the fighter probably has the 200gp to get Splint and their AC is no 19). And others have said that they have control options via Stunning Strike. But again, you are using Ki and if you use it in conjunction with FoB, if you are engaged by multiple enemies, you can run out of Ki quickly, at that level, and then you are back to 2 attacks, just like the fighter.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The difference is that Monks already have a much higher movement speed and have a bunch of other mobility options that Rogues do not. And no, I am saying nothing of the kind so you candrop the silly strawmen arguments. High levels already do have basically what amounts to a "free" dash action. Giving them even more speed would make them even more powerful and as has already been pointed out, Monks are already really, really, really good.
No, you are not "basically a fighter "with lower AC". First of all you already have more attacks than said fighter, more mobility options and more control options. Yes, some of these options cost resources but the fact that the player chooses to spend these resources unwisely (for example, doing patient defence instead of just the ordinary dodge action) is not a flaw of the class.
The statistical difference in HP is a mere 4 points but once again you're doing the flawed comparison between a frontline tank class as the fighter to a mobile skirmisher as the monk. The two classes are not the same, they are not supposed to be the same and so the two have different strengths and weaknesses. You do realize this, don't you?
As for maxing stats, you are now moving the goalposts. Monks don't have to max out Wisdom and Dexterity to be good monks and fighters who only focuses on strength and ignores, says con and dex, will quite often not be very good fighters.
Either way, we are back to the fact that Fighters and Monks (or Monks and Rogues) are very different classes with very different purposes and saying that Monks need improvement just because the Monks can't do everything a Fighter and Rogue can, just as good as Fighter and Rogue, is just silly. If you want a class that is able to do what a Fighter or a Rogue can, play as a fighter or a Rogue. It's literally that simple.
ASI and Feats do matter. Fighters because of their base class load out do not need more than one stat to maximize most of their load out.
Dex fighters and just need dex for AC, Attack, Damage, and even DC in the case of battlemaster abilities.
Rogues just need DEX for the same reason.
STR fighters are the same. They do not need a second stat to make themselves viable.
Monks are highly dependent on both DEX and WIS to maintain a consistent AC as unlike the fighter they cannot augment their AC with shields or other forms of armor (Medium Armor Barbarians)
Monks are the only martial class that cannot boost their AC in some appreciable way without fully relying on their stats to do so. Because of this the opportunity cost for NOT maxing their stats is much much higher than the other classes.
If they take a feat they are losing out on damage, AC, and potentially their DC to their stunning strike which as you stated is their bread and butter.
No other class feels this opportunity cost as much as the monk and its not even close.
Monks have the lowest damage output of any martial by a significant margin. They do not have a way to augment damage from their attacks as the rest of the martial classes do.
From levels 1-4 they are no more effective at basically anything than a fighter as a fighter can literally make the same amount of attacks as them with two weapon fighting with action surge and can even match or beat their damage with increased accuracy (Archery Style) or damage buffs (Dueling and GWF). Their pool of ki is so small at these levels they cannot reliable rely on flurry of blows for sustained output especially if they are also relying on this ki pool for defensive help (Patient Defense).
Monks then get Stunning Strike at level 5 which is a big boost of power for sure and I would even argue that monks are balanced from 5th level to say 11th level. They get a decent amount of ki at this point and can reasonable choose what to do. No changes required IMO during this time period.
11th level is where they start to fall again until they get their subclass feature at 17th level. I haven't personally played this area with monks but based on the stats presented from the Treantmonk video I could see where they could start to fall hard when the rest of the martial are getting significant boosts in damage at this level. Monks are capped at this point and do not have much item support to help. This is where +2 weapons start to come into play and there is no +2 option for fists which are becoming the monks best bet at this point.
By this time the fighter, rogue, paladin, and barbarian have significant increases to damage where a monk is left with their base kit of abilities...they can just do it more often.
Monks have other cool stuff that makes up for the basic number of ASIs.
Fighters need Con and any Fighter with a crappy Initiative is going to pay for it. And there's more to the game than combat and DPR.
You can easily get a basic AC of 18 and still have at least one ASI over for a feat. You don't *need* to max your stats to have a viable character in 5E.
Except all those lovely bracers of defence and rings and cloak of protection you mean? Not to mention the fact that Monks can do all of tehir cool monk shit while literally in the nude and all the other classes are reliant on equipment to be able to do even the most basic of things?
Who has stated what now? Who are you even replying to? :P
Not really, but keep telling yourself that.
Have you even read the rules for monks or fighters? Open hand have a literal save or die ability, Shadow monks can give themselves advantage every round, four elements have all sorts of tricks (albeit very costly ones), Kensei monks can sharpen their weapons, sun soul monks can pew-pew and drunken masters can get extra flurry of blows.
Monks can still bonus attack for two attacks per round which means that they have the same number of attacks as a dual wielding fighters. And Fighters are supposed to be extremely good at fighting. Why would Monks need to rival that? They have other things they excel at.
Again, you do realize that there is more to the game than just combat and that there is more to combat than just doing damage? Like, I don't know, being immune to certain types of damage or being much better at making saving throws against lots of different things? Or being able to move very, very fast over basically every surface?
Sure, if you ignore the subclass abilites and focus ONLY on damage. Which is quite a silly thing to do.
TLDR; You're willfully ignoring the strengths of the Monk class to make a point that holds no water. Monks still don't need a boost since they are one of the strongest classes in the game.
So your saying a monk needs two rare items to boost AC while a fighter just needs a shield?
OK...seems it may be pointless discussing at this point.
Have a good one!
Don't be silly. That was a response to your statement that there were no items which could boost the Monk's AC. You're also kind of making the point for me, fighters need equipment, monks do not. And if a fighter is using a shield they give offensive capabilites.