What happens when/if a paladin breaks their oath? I'm looking for RAW, RAI, and any other knowledge, thoughts, or opinions. Do they loose all the paladin levels? Do they become an oath breaker paladin? Nothing happens? My "feeling" is that something bad should happen, and my gut response is they loose their paladin levels, or at least paladin powers, either forever or until they make atone for their misstep.
I think this would depend on their oath and what they're doing to break it - are they a Devotion paladin who is abandoning people they promised to help? Are they a Redemption paladin who lashed out in anger against their tenets? A lot of this is determined by the DM and how they think about the action and whether it broke the Oath tenets. If it was bad enough to violate the Oath, I would check with the player and see what option they want to follow - change subclass (to Oathbreaker), change class (to fighter), or try to atone. If they try to atone, I might be inclined to take away the divine aspects of their levels - no Lay on Hands, no Auras, no Smite/spellcasting, no immunity to Disease etc.
The key thing for me (as someone who plays a paladin) is that if I ever break my oath, it would have to be for a very good reason, and I know I would feel guilty and hell about it. Having a DM coordinate with their player is key to having satisfying RP moments for something that is very mechanical.
What happens when/if a paladin breaks their oath? I'm looking for RAW, RAI, and any other knowledge, thoughts, or opinions. Do they loose all the paladin levels? Do they become an oath breaker paladin? Nothing happens? My "feeling" is that something bad should happen, and my gut response is they loose their paladin levels, or at least paladin powers, either forever or until they make atone for their misstep.
Thanks!
If you’re the DM, you decide what you feel best suits the situation. That may mean using the optional Oathbreaker from the DMG, or designing something completely unique if you prefer.
If you’re the Player, whatever your DM says happens is what happens. Many DMs the Oathbreaker under this situation, others do not.
For this I would consult with the player if you're the DM, or the DM if you're the player - if the Oathbreaker is interesting to you, and how you want to play out the broken Oath, it's dope, but if you love the current subclass, it's worth investigating how to keep it. The Oathbreaker can be a super interesting way to atone for breaking Oaths (as in the DMG/description), but it's important to note that the description does specify that it best fits for someone who broke their Oath "to pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power." The features entirely change the vibe of the class, not necessarily leaning towards a desire for atonement.
The sidebar in the PHB, by leaving it explicitly open, indicates the RAI are that it’s up to the player and/or DM. There is no hard and fast rule, presumably because there shouldn’t be. There’s a “this is what typically would happen” suggestion to fall back on if the infraction is salvageable, for those who don’t have a better idea, and confirmation that it is in the DM’s purview to impose a harsher penalty if the infraction is too severe. It has a somewhat similar vibe as the druids’ prohibition against wearing metal armour: strictly speaking there is no prohibition, but players are expected to abide by it. Paladin players are expected to hold their characters to their oath, even if technically there is nothing set in stone about being penalized if they don’t.
I’ve had a paladin player who wanted his character to question his faith and convictions after a couple of incidents he felt he failed in holding to his ideals. We agreed that until the paladin regained that faith, his class-specific abilities would be erratic (11 or higher on a d20 the ability works fine; 10 or less the ability fails; on a 1 or 2 result he’d take 1d4 points of holy damage as well and suffer a moment of despair). If a paladin fails, use it as an opportunity. Be open to the possibilities and do something that’s appropriate for the failure and is fun and engaging for the players. “One size fits all” solutions are generally a bad idea. It’s a creative game, so be creative.
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The sidebar in the PHB, by leaving it explicitly open, indicates the RAI are that it’s up to the player and/or DM. There is no hard and fast rule, presumably because there shouldn’t be.
Yeah, 3rd Edition did have hard and fast rules, and as a consequence Paladins were one of the worst classes in that game.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think if it's a consious choice, you become an Oathbreaker or lose all your paladin levels, but if it's an accident, you can seek a cleric or paladin of your order to help you attone. You then do some fasting or something, and a difficult holy quest before becoming a paladin again.
I do not know if I am potentially re-igniting an old thread: but just wanted to give my two cents on the subject.
I believe it depends on the purpose, as many have said there is no clear cut answer. But in a way, is it not every Paladin's dream and desire to find that ONE entity that would push them to forsake their vows and everything else? Sure, you live your life keeping to your oaths and morals. But one day would you not be met with one whom you must break those codes in order to do what is right for the greater good?
I see Paladins as mortals whom want to cage their inner demons and monsterous sides with the heaviest of restrictions. Those who break the rules for their self pleasure are throwing away their mortality to indulge in being those caged entities without remorse. But what about the Paladin that decides to throw everything away for the right reason? You meet a creature so vile - so evil - so inhuman that the only response is to throw your own humanity away and match them as a monsterous force. What do those Paladins become? Sacrificing everything for as much power as possible to save the kingdom/world/whatever? I honesy feel like there should be another optional outcome class like the Oathbreaker - but in the opposite direction. In an uncreative name- The Holy Avenger. The martyr? Idk. Could be a fun outcome for a final encounter. Maybe leads the Paladin to become an angel or if the sacrifice was so great, they perhaps just become a legend both withing their religious circle and the world as their spirit was burned away.
Overall what everyone else here said is pretty much the right thing: discuss with the DM - figure it out - and hopefully create a good story around it.
Wouldn't you become an Oathbreaker, per the DMG? It explains how to atone and everything. Or do you mean besides that.
The way Oathbreaker is described I wouldn't say that it's an automatic transition for any broken oath, it's something a lot more severe, as you're really on a path towards becoming a death knight when you use that sub-class.
For me the default question when an oath is broken, or can no longer be fulfilled, is whether there's another oath you can take instead. The other alternative is that the deity withdraws their support entirely, and the Paladin has to a re-class as a Fighter until they can gain a new divine source of power. A more complex option is to re-class as a Warlock if the nature of your agreement (and/or the patron) changes.
I would say however that simply failing in an oath doesn't need to be the end of it; Paladins are not perfect, they can make mistakes, and if they are still loyal they should seek forgiveness, or find some way to atone, which should definitely be discussed with the DM, as it could be a great hook for a quest. It's also a good way to explain the absence of character whose powers come from an external source when you know the player isn't going to be around.
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What happens when/if a paladin breaks their oath? I'm looking for RAW, RAI, and any other knowledge, thoughts, or opinions. Do they loose all the paladin levels? Do they become an oath breaker paladin? Nothing happens? My "feeling" is that something bad should happen, and my gut response is they loose their paladin levels, or at least paladin powers, either forever or until they make atone for their misstep.
Thanks!
I think this would depend on their oath and what they're doing to break it - are they a Devotion paladin who is abandoning people they promised to help? Are they a Redemption paladin who lashed out in anger against their tenets? A lot of this is determined by the DM and how they think about the action and whether it broke the Oath tenets. If it was bad enough to violate the Oath, I would check with the player and see what option they want to follow - change subclass (to Oathbreaker), change class (to fighter), or try to atone. If they try to atone, I might be inclined to take away the divine aspects of their levels - no Lay on Hands, no Auras, no Smite/spellcasting, no immunity to Disease etc.
The key thing for me (as someone who plays a paladin) is that if I ever break my oath, it would have to be for a very good reason, and I know I would feel guilty and hell about it. Having a DM coordinate with their player is key to having satisfying RP moments for something that is very mechanical.
Wouldn't you become an Oathbreaker, per the DMG? It explains how to atone and everything. Or do you mean besides that.
That’s an entirely optional rule, not all DMs use it.
If you’re the DM, you decide what you feel best suits the situation. That may mean using the optional Oathbreaker from the DMG, or designing something completely unique if you prefer.
If you’re the Player, whatever your DM says happens is what happens. Many DMs the Oathbreaker under this situation, others do not.
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For this I would consult with the player if you're the DM, or the DM if you're the player - if the Oathbreaker is interesting to you, and how you want to play out the broken Oath, it's dope, but if you love the current subclass, it's worth investigating how to keep it. The Oathbreaker can be a super interesting way to atone for breaking Oaths (as in the DMG/description), but it's important to note that the description does specify that it best fits for someone who broke their Oath "to pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power." The features entirely change the vibe of the class, not necessarily leaning towards a desire for atonement.
The sidebar in the PHB, by leaving it explicitly open, indicates the RAI are that it’s up to the player and/or DM. There is no hard and fast rule, presumably because there shouldn’t be. There’s a “this is what typically would happen” suggestion to fall back on if the infraction is salvageable, for those who don’t have a better idea, and confirmation that it is in the DM’s purview to impose a harsher penalty if the infraction is too severe. It has a somewhat similar vibe as the druids’ prohibition against wearing metal armour: strictly speaking there is no prohibition, but players are expected to abide by it. Paladin players are expected to hold their characters to their oath, even if technically there is nothing set in stone about being penalized if they don’t.
I’ve had a paladin player who wanted his character to question his faith and convictions after a couple of incidents he felt he failed in holding to his ideals. We agreed that until the paladin regained that faith, his class-specific abilities would be erratic (11 or higher on a d20 the ability works fine; 10 or less the ability fails; on a 1 or 2 result he’d take 1d4 points of holy damage as well and suffer a moment of despair). If a paladin fails, use it as an opportunity. Be open to the possibilities and do something that’s appropriate for the failure and is fun and engaging for the players. “One size fits all” solutions are generally a bad idea. It’s a creative game, so be creative.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah, 3rd Edition did have hard and fast rules, and as a consequence Paladins were one of the worst classes in that game.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think if it's a consious choice, you become an Oathbreaker or lose all your paladin levels, but if it's an accident, you can seek a cleric or paladin of your order to help you attone. You then do some fasting or something, and a difficult holy quest before becoming a paladin again.
I do not know if I am potentially re-igniting an old thread: but just wanted to give my two cents on the subject.
I believe it depends on the purpose, as many have said there is no clear cut answer. But in a way, is it not every Paladin's dream and desire to find that ONE entity that would push them to forsake their vows and everything else? Sure, you live your life keeping to your oaths and morals. But one day would you not be met with one whom you must break those codes in order to do what is right for the greater good?
I see Paladins as mortals whom want to cage their inner demons and monsterous sides with the heaviest of restrictions. Those who break the rules for their self pleasure are throwing away their mortality to indulge in being those caged entities without remorse. But what about the Paladin that decides to throw everything away for the right reason? You meet a creature so vile - so evil - so inhuman that the only response is to throw your own humanity away and match them as a monsterous force. What do those Paladins become? Sacrificing everything for as much power as possible to save the kingdom/world/whatever? I honesy feel like there should be another optional outcome class like the Oathbreaker - but in the opposite direction. In an uncreative name- The Holy Avenger. The martyr? Idk. Could be a fun outcome for a final encounter. Maybe leads the Paladin to become an angel or if the sacrifice was so great, they perhaps just become a legend both withing their religious circle and the world as their spirit was burned away.
Overall what everyone else here said is pretty much the right thing: discuss with the DM - figure it out - and hopefully create a good story around it.
Trying to smite a heinously evil being is upholding most paladin oaths, not breaking them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The way Oathbreaker is described I wouldn't say that it's an automatic transition for any broken oath, it's something a lot more severe, as you're really on a path towards becoming a death knight when you use that sub-class.
For me the default question when an oath is broken, or can no longer be fulfilled, is whether there's another oath you can take instead. The other alternative is that the deity withdraws their support entirely, and the Paladin has to a re-class as a Fighter until they can gain a new divine source of power. A more complex option is to re-class as a Warlock if the nature of your agreement (and/or the patron) changes.
I would say however that simply failing in an oath doesn't need to be the end of it; Paladins are not perfect, they can make mistakes, and if they are still loyal they should seek forgiveness, or find some way to atone, which should definitely be discussed with the DM, as it could be a great hook for a quest. It's also a good way to explain the absence of character whose powers come from an external source when you know the player isn't going to be around.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.