Rangers are less of a combat numbers problem and more of a class problem. The game has less breadth of appeal in 2024. Meaning classes play the same rather than appeal to different playstyles. People who want a fighter/survivalist or steathy nature expert can get that play from other builds.
What 2024 doesn't have is a unique reason/mechanic to exist and to top it off 2024 undermines themes ranger character narratives want. It encourages specific features (at the detriment of others) rather than providing them as tool options.
At least 2014 had unique abilities and diagetic interactions with the game mechanics. Now it could have used some clarity and cleanup but with a good group it actually functions fine.
I agree. I don't think the Ranger's issue as a class is single target damage, dps, or multi target damage. The Ranger's issue is that it lacks a unique and interesting class feature that people want to play. Barbarians Rage. Bards Inspire. Clerics Channel Divinity. Druids Wildshape. Fighter Action Surge their multi-attacks. Monks Focus on Martial Arts. Paladins Smite in their Aura. Rogues Sneak Attack. Sorcerers Meta their Magic. Warlocks Invoke Patron powers. Wizards Ritual cast from their extensive Spellbook. Even Artificers Infuse magic items (or whatever the UA is calling it for now.)
Rangers have Hunter's Mark. It doesn't scale well. And some of the features they added for 2024 to try to improve it come into effect at very late levels, and they are of questionable mechanical value (Advantage at level 17, after level 14 gives you momentary Invisibility, for example.) Of course, there's the issue with it consuming your concentration resource.
I'd like to see the Ranger have a feature that allows them to assist their party members in either skills, or attacks/damage, or both. Idk if this would manifest as some kind of Aura, like the Paladin, only for skill checks? Or if Hunter's Mark would have a feature that grants the next attacker Advantage? I'm not sure. But some kind of feature that would let the Ranger, in effect, tell party members how/where to attack monsters, like Legolas telling those around him where the orc's armor is weak at the Battle of Helm's Deep. (I understand this is the theme behind the Hunter's "Hunter's Lore" feature, but I was thinking about something that would give Advantage to the party or to an ally, or perhaps a damage boost or an attack bonus?)
Idk. I really don't know. But I think there's more to Ranger than just Hunter's Mark and single target damage. But it's difficult to pin down what they should be. Are they the quintessential Archer? But people also want them to be melee fighters. Are they the archetypical woodsman- tracking, scouting, and hunting? But how can that translate into environments like towns, tombs, and dungeons (where many, if not most, adventures take place)? Rangers are difficult to define and even more difficult to define mechanically. I think WotC did a decent job on the 2024 base class with features like Expertise, Roving, & Tireless. I think adding features to Hunter's Mark wasn't the worst idea, but I think they could have found more interesting (and mechanically effective) ways to implement it.
Hunters mark doesn’t scale well?
you’re not using it correctly. You clearly have not ever upcast a hunters mark on a target that you need more time to prepare for. Taken a long rest and prepared, and then still tracked it down because of the hunters mark.
thats at high levels vs problematic things that typically have lairs and lair effects. After sneaking in better than a rogue can because of pass without a trace.
Just saying. If you are only using hunters mark IMMEDIATELY when combat begins. Or EXLCLUSIVELY in combat. You’re not using it to its full potential- so of course it “wouldn’t scale” it’s not being used properly.
Based on the above notes from a different thread, I am clueless. I only have the 2024 PHB, would that matter, as some cool stuff is based on other sources I don't have access to? I discounted Ranger because I did not see much advantage compared to other classes.
He's referring to using it as a tracking tool rather than just a DPS boost. In addition to bonus damage, the spell does this:
You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
Your definition of value on that may vary depending on table.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
He's referring to using it as a tracking tool rather than just a DPS boost. In addition to bonus damage, the spell does this:
You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
Your definition of value on that may vary depending on table.
That may vary by table, but in terms of skill checks it is generally weaker than Guidance, Bardic Inspiration and way less effective than Tactical Mind or Enhance Ability and with the exception of Enhance ability, these all have a lower resource cost.
IMO a Ranger above level 7 should rarely use HM in a combat that matters. There are either much better spells to concentrate on or better uses of your bonus action or both. If the Ranger wants to use it for some highly situational scenarios where you see someone and then later need to make one of these checks, that is probably a good use at any level, but only because a Ranger does not have better options available which largely accomplish the same thing.
So can I assume the best ranger is still a fighter that can scout?
A Ranger is like a cross between a Druid and a Fighter, in the same way a Paladin is like a Cleric crossed with a Fighter. They can have similar playing styles, but if you assume that a Ranger is simply a scout fighter (and play it as such), you are using the features the wrong way. A Ranger is highly utilitarian, but they can also hold their own in combat. Hunter's mark can be used for booth combat and tracking purposes; there really is no "correct" way. Plus, it's pretty fun rolling around in Half Plate and sniping people with your longbow and Ensnaring strike.
Btw, if you just want a fighter who can scout, just multiclass one level into Rogue and take stealth and perception expertise.
So can I assume the best ranger is still a fighter that can scout?
Not really, in the 2024 rules a Fighter can scout better than a Ranger can because of Tactical Mind.
A Ranger is a half caster who can use Martial Weapons with some cool subclass abilities.
Its just a different way of scouting.
Rangers got 1 more skill and access to expertise while fighters would normally need to expend a feature...
You can play any class as a scout and find ways to be good at it. It just plays different...
Tactical Mind is significantly better than proficiency and generally better than expertise even and it is usable on any skill check. Further you only attempt it if you fail and it only expends a resource if you subsequently succeed, so every time you expend a resource you have a successful check.
In play Tactical Mind is generally more effective than every other type of non-magic skill boost. In tier 1-3, A Ranger with expertise is going to be about equal to a fighter with no proficiency in the skill he has expertise in and the fighter will be better at every other skill (assuming same ability scores).
Fighters are the best skill Monkeys in 2024. Rogues start catch up in tier 3 in the 4 skills they have expertise in, but even in tier 3-5 Fighters are still better at difficult checks in all the other skills.
So can I assume the best ranger is still a fighter that can scout?
Not really, in the 2024 rules a Fighter can scout better than a Ranger can because of Tactical Mind.
A Ranger is a half caster who can use Martial Weapons with some cool subclass abilities.
Sure tactical mind is great for you two uses in early campaign(I know it goes up eventually as you level) But expertise is always there for a ranger and hunters mark just adds to the effectiveness. Also the fighter might need to burn his second wind in battle and not be able to use tactical mind.
So can I assume the best ranger is still a fighter that can scout?
Not really, in the 2024 rules a Fighter can scout better than a Ranger can because of Tactical Mind.
A Ranger is a half caster who can use Martial Weapons with some cool subclass abilities.
Sure tactical mind is great for you two uses in early campaign(I know it goes up eventually as you level) But expertise is always there for a ranger and hunters mark just adds to the effectiveness. Also the fighter might need to burn his second wind in battle and not be able to use tactical mind.
Tactical Mind is more than 2 uses. At level 2 and level 3 it is 2 failures turned into 2 success plus 1 more per short rest. The key piece is that the resource is not used unless it turns a failure into a success.
Compared to a PC with no proficiency at all there is only a 20% chance on a given roll that expertise would even. 80% of the time the PC with no proficiency and the PC with expertise will get the exact same result. When expertise is a difference maker the fighter has a really good chance to succeed as well. Additionally when they both would fail the check the fighter usually still has a chance to turn that failure into a success. He has this chance no matter how many times he fails until he turns two of those failures into a success (or more than 2 with more short rests).
At level 2 a Ranger with expertise would need to make 6 checks without any short rests before expertise is statistically better than a Fighter with no proficiency and tactical mind. That number goes up at level 4, it goes up with every short rest you get and it goes up if the Fighter has normal basic proficiency in the skill. That is comparing the one skill the Ranger has expertise in. In the other 17 skills they have the same chance of success before Tactical Mind is even considered.
It is not common to do 6 checks of a single ability in a day with no short rests. At levels 2-4 a Fighter is not just a little better than a Rager, it is a lot better than a Ranger with the same ability scores.
Let’s see, tactical mind adds a d10 roll so it’s basically adding a +5 to the roll. It works 2 +1/SR so basically 4 successes a day at +5 to roll + WB +PB which are standard whether a fighter, ranger or scout rogue so
scout rogue: base + expertise (+3 in tier 1) so just +3 but an infinite number of times a day. fighter: base + TM (+5 on 3-4 successful rolls/day) Ranger with hunters mark active and expertise. Expertise is +3 and hunters mark grants advantage which is typically considered +4 so a total of +7 to your tracking rolls so for tracking a ranger with expertise and hunters mark is the best tracker
Also, part of what you have to consider with TM is the “ opportunity cost” of using it for tracking rather than for saves or other stat/skill checks it could be applied to. Each tracking check is a potential other more important roll it can’t be used for.
Let’s see, tactical mind adds a d10 roll so it’s basically adding a +5 to the roll. It works 2 +1/SR so basically 4 successes a day at +5 to roll + WB +PB which are standard whether a fighter, ranger or scout rogue so
scout rogue: base + expertise (+3 in tier 1) so just +3 but an infinite number of times a day. fighter: base + TM (+5 on 3-4 successful rolls/day) Ranger with hunters mark active and expertise. Expertise is +3 and hunters mark grants advantage which is typically considered +4 so a total of +7 to your tracking rolls so for tracking a ranger with expertise and hunters mark is the best tracker
Also, part of what you have to consider with TM is the “ opportunity cost” of using it for tracking rather than for saves or other stat/skill checks it could be applied to. Each tracking check is a potential other more important roll it can’t be used for.
Exactly,
No one is saying Tactical Mind is a bad feature, is a very good feature but it comes with a resource cost. For a one off check is quite good. But "falls" if you need to expend several on a rapid succession to make different checks (table dependant, and fails dont count either way).
Hunter's Mark too consumes a resource ("free" for the most part but also can spent a spell slot). But is normally better if you need to make several checks within its hour duration.
And expertise resource cost is only the choice you took(you picked that skill, instead of another), but then is limitless in uses.
Hunters mark has its limitations and problems - you have to see the target to cast it, using a L1/2 spell it only lasts 1 hour. But for its costs and problems it, combined with expertise and a solid wisdom score, it still makes the ranger the best tracker in the game. I would love an even bigger boost but … of course as you grow in level you do get a bigger boost as proficiency bonuses increase. By level 20 PB is +6 as expertise is +12 and expertise + advantage = +16 far outstripping the fighter’s tactical mind’s +5 which never changes as they level up. I don’t like the scout rogue - it gets expertise in nature and survival automatically at L3. Ok, it doesn’t actually say that, instead it speaks around it giving the scout rogue double proficiency in both skills ( which is what expertise is). If it gave them skills without expertise it would be fine, if the rogue choose to take expertise in those skills at higher level that’s fine, the ranger has that option as well. I also would love to see the ranger’s expertises reversed - get 2 at L2 and one more at L9. I grant that allows others to take a 2 level dip to get 2 expertises but I don’t really care about that. Tactical mind’s is quite good, certainly better than the scout rogue always on expertise only, and really on a par with the ranger using hunters mark without expertise but with with proficiency ( ok, advantage is only +4 but odds are the ranger has a better wisdom than the fighter so they have an extra +1 to their WB making it even). Since they both use an expendable resource they should be better.
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Based on the above notes from a different thread, I am clueless. I only have the 2024 PHB, would that matter, as some cool stuff is based on other sources I don't have access to? I discounted Ranger because I did not see much advantage compared to other classes.
I want to be taught how wrong I am.
He's referring to using it as a tracking tool rather than just a DPS boost. In addition to bonus damage, the spell does this:
You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
Your definition of value on that may vary depending on table.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That may vary by table, but in terms of skill checks it is generally weaker than Guidance, Bardic Inspiration and way less effective than Tactical Mind or Enhance Ability and with the exception of Enhance ability, these all have a lower resource cost.
IMO a Ranger above level 7 should rarely use HM in a combat that matters. There are either much better spells to concentrate on or better uses of your bonus action or both. If the Ranger wants to use it for some highly situational scenarios where you see someone and then later need to make one of these checks, that is probably a good use at any level, but only because a Ranger does not have better options available which largely accomplish the same thing.
Thank you all for these points.
So can I assume the best ranger is still a fighter that can scout?
A Ranger is like a cross between a Druid and a Fighter, in the same way a Paladin is like a Cleric crossed with a Fighter. They can have similar playing styles, but if you assume that a Ranger is simply a scout fighter (and play it as such), you are using the features the wrong way. A Ranger is highly utilitarian, but they can also hold their own in combat. Hunter's mark can be used for booth combat and tracking purposes; there really is no "correct" way. Plus, it's pretty fun rolling around in Half Plate and sniping people with your longbow and Ensnaring strike.
Btw, if you just want a fighter who can scout, just multiclass one level into Rogue and take stealth and perception expertise.
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Not really, in the 2024 rules a Fighter can scout better than a Ranger can because of Tactical Mind.
A Ranger is a half caster who can use Martial Weapons with some cool subclass abilities.
Its just a different way of scouting.
Rangers got 1 more skill and access to expertise while fighters would normally need to expend a feature...
You can play any class as a scout and find ways to be good at it. It just plays different...
Tactical Mind is significantly better than proficiency and generally better than expertise even and it is usable on any skill check. Further you only attempt it if you fail and it only expends a resource if you subsequently succeed, so every time you expend a resource you have a successful check.
In play Tactical Mind is generally more effective than every other type of non-magic skill boost. In tier 1-3, A Ranger with expertise is going to be about equal to a fighter with no proficiency in the skill he has expertise in and the fighter will be better at every other skill (assuming same ability scores).
Fighters are the best skill Monkeys in 2024. Rogues start catch up in tier 3 in the 4 skills they have expertise in, but even in tier 3-5 Fighters are still better at difficult checks in all the other skills.
Sure tactical mind is great for you two uses in early campaign(I know it goes up eventually as you level) But expertise is always there for a ranger and hunters mark just adds to the effectiveness. Also the fighter might need to burn his second wind in battle and not be able to use tactical mind.
Tactical Mind is more than 2 uses. At level 2 and level 3 it is 2 failures turned into 2 success plus 1 more per short rest. The key piece is that the resource is not used unless it turns a failure into a success.
Compared to a PC with no proficiency at all there is only a 20% chance on a given roll that expertise would even. 80% of the time the PC with no proficiency and the PC with expertise will get the exact same result. When expertise is a difference maker the fighter has a really good chance to succeed as well. Additionally when they both would fail the check the fighter usually still has a chance to turn that failure into a success. He has this chance no matter how many times he fails until he turns two of those failures into a success (or more than 2 with more short rests).
At level 2 a Ranger with expertise would need to make 6 checks without any short rests before expertise is statistically better than a Fighter with no proficiency and tactical mind. That number goes up at level 4, it goes up with every short rest you get and it goes up if the Fighter has normal basic proficiency in the skill. That is comparing the one skill the Ranger has expertise in. In the other 17 skills they have the same chance of success before Tactical Mind is even considered.
It is not common to do 6 checks of a single ability in a day with no short rests. At levels 2-4 a Fighter is not just a little better than a Rager, it is a lot better than a Ranger with the same ability scores.
Let’s see, tactical mind adds a d10 roll so it’s basically adding a +5 to the roll. It works 2 +1/SR so basically 4 successes a day at +5 to roll + WB +PB which are standard whether a fighter, ranger or scout rogue so
scout rogue: base + expertise (+3 in tier 1) so just +3 but an infinite number of times a day.
fighter: base + TM (+5 on 3-4 successful rolls/day)
Ranger with hunters mark active and expertise. Expertise is +3 and hunters mark grants advantage which is typically considered +4 so a total of +7 to your tracking rolls so for tracking a ranger with expertise and hunters mark is the best tracker
Also, part of what you have to consider with TM is the “ opportunity cost” of using it for tracking rather than for saves or other stat/skill checks it could be applied to. Each tracking check is a potential other more important roll it can’t be used for.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Exactly,
No one is saying Tactical Mind is a bad feature, is a very good feature but it comes with a resource cost. For a one off check is quite good. But "falls" if you need to expend several on a rapid succession to make different checks (table dependant, and fails dont count either way).
Hunter's Mark too consumes a resource ("free" for the most part but also can spent a spell slot). But is normally better if you need to make several checks within its hour duration.
And expertise resource cost is only the choice you took(you picked that skill, instead of another), but then is limitless in uses.
Hunters mark has its limitations and problems - you have to see the target to cast it, using a L1/2 spell it only lasts 1 hour. But for its costs and problems it, combined with expertise and a solid wisdom score, it still makes the ranger the best tracker in the game. I would love an even bigger boost but …
of course as you grow in level you do get a bigger boost as proficiency bonuses increase. By level 20 PB is +6 as expertise is +12 and expertise + advantage = +16 far outstripping the fighter’s tactical mind’s +5 which never changes as they level up.
I don’t like the scout rogue - it gets expertise in nature and survival automatically at L3. Ok, it doesn’t actually say that, instead it speaks around it giving the scout rogue double proficiency in both skills ( which is what expertise is). If it gave them skills without expertise it would be fine, if the rogue choose to take expertise in those skills at higher level that’s fine, the ranger has that option as well.
I also would love to see the ranger’s expertises reversed - get 2 at L2 and one more at L9. I grant that allows others to take a 2 level dip to get 2 expertises but I don’t really care about that.
Tactical mind’s is quite good, certainly better than the scout rogue always on expertise only, and really on a par with the ranger using hunters mark without expertise but with with proficiency ( ok, advantage is only +4 but odds are the ranger has a better wisdom than the fighter so they have an extra +1 to their WB making it even). Since they both use an expendable resource they should be better.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.