I think what a lot of people are getting hung up on is they think these alternate features are supposed to be better than whatever it is they're replacing. And that line of thinking is just plain wrong. If a feature was obviously better than its counterpart, then there'd be no point in offering the choice
This would further strengthen my resolve that hide in plain sight is a two part ability and really good!
The problem with Hide in Plain sight is that it is an ability that works exactly one time, at the start of combat, assuming you have a FULL MINUTE to prepare. It just isn't that functional. At least the new version you can do in combat anytime and more than once
I wasn't talking about you, @Jhfffan, sorry if it appeared like I was targeting you. I have no gripe with you. It's the other two that are hailing the ranger's apparent "perfection" that I'm more annoyed by.
I sure hope that this leak is not real, but given WotC's track record with leaks and "fixing" classes/subclasses, I suspect that this is genuinely what we are getting.
No worries. I wasn't feeling like it was targeting me, but I couldn't help but comment.
I think what a lot of people are getting hung up on is they think these alternate features are supposed to be better than whatever it is they're replacing. And that line of thinking is just plain wrong. If a feature was obviously better than its counterpart, then there'd be no point in offering the choice
This would further strengthen my resolve that hide in plain sight is a two part ability and really good!
The problem with Hide in Plain sight is that it is an ability that works exactly one time, at the start of combat, assuming you have a FULL MINUTE to prepare. It just isn't that functional. At least the new version you can do in combat anytime and more than once
They both have very different uses. Hide in Plain Sight is preparatory. You've set an ambush; probably laid traps. It stacks with Pass without Trace and doesn't take a hiding spot away from an ally. It supports a specific style of play; fighting foes on your terms and catching them by surprise. And it needn't be used immediately. A ranger could, conceivably, continuously cover themselves as they travel, and use it when necessary. Heck, you can probably sleep like that if you're out camping.
Nature's Veil, by comparison, reads to me more like a panic button that uses your bonus action. If you want to hide, that's also your action. If you just want advantage on your attacks and disadvantage to get hit for one round at a time, then you're golden. They're similar, which is the point, but also have very different strengths. Which one you want depends on how you want to play.
I mean, if your using both Pass without Trace and Hide in Plain Sight, I'm just going to say a + ~29 is a bit overkill. You should probably use just one, and by just one probably Pass without a Trace because it benefits party members.
Edit: I think these changes are pretty good, Ranger can now finally get Expertise in survival lol.
Favored Foe is a bit disappointing, but I guess it helps newcomers who might not understand how great hunter's mark is, and doesn't use any spell slots. Not like your using those for anything considering half the ranger list is concentration.
Primal Awareness works, as it's trading utility for... well better utility. I guess the trade off is supposed to be that Primal Awareness doesn't cost spell slots and you don't need it in order to take these spells.
Yeah Nature's Veil is fine. I don't see anything wrong with it.
As for Primal Companion... are the beasts the same as the ones in ACF? Honestly the idea of giving people a selection of balanced creatures of pick from vs having to go though the entire DMG and pray you figure out which ones are best is probably well-needed.
I don’t think the leaks are accurate. If they are, the beast master is going to be CRAZY damage output!
I haven't seen the details on the beast master primal forms, but based on the variant I remember reading it is hardly CRAZY damage. Can you explain your thought process?
3rd-level Beast Master feature, which replaces the Ranger's Companion feature
You magically summon a primal beast, which draws strength from your bond with nature. The best is friendly to you and your companions and obeys your commands. Choose its stat block - Beast of the Land, Beast of the Sea, or Beast of the Sky - Which uses your proficiency bonus (PB) in several places. You also determine the kind of animal the best is, choosing a king appropriate for the stat block. Whatever kind you choose, the beast bears primal markings, indicating it's mystical origin.
In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn nto command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the attack action to command the beast to take the attack action. if you are incapacitated, the beast can take any cation of its choice, not just Dodge.
If the beast has died within the last hour, you can use your action to touch it and expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher. The beast returns to life after 1 minute with all its hit points restored.
When you finish a long rest, you can summon a different primal beast. The new beast appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you, and you choose its stat block and appearance. If you already have a beast from this feature, it vanishes when the new beast appears. The beast also vanishes if you die.
So at level 11 with a beast that does 6 +2 + 4 (from proficiency bonus) twice when it takes the attack action (assuming the rest of the subclass features don’t change as well), the new wording (according to this “leak” which is typed because it has two errors) allows the ranger to take the attack action and have the beast take the attack action with a bonus action command (that is how the beast master will benefit from the new favored foe feature, btw). Let’s say the ranger is using a rapier and the dueling fighting style. That’s a total of 42 average damage. WITHOUT hunter’s mark, favored foe, or anything.
You're going to have to break that down, because I am unclear how a d8+7 (assuming 20 Dex) + 2 pet attacks for 2d6+4+8 (assuming the pet adds pb, which the variant features PDF does not even show) = 42? Even if you rolled max damage it only gets you to 39. A fighter at that level can do 3d12+15 (+45 if using great weapon master) and a rogue could do a d8+6d6+5 , so I am not seeing CRAZY damage here. Is it comparable, sure.
Well, unless the level 11 beast master ability gets changed like the level 3 ability, beasts get to attack twice at this point. A ranger with a rapier and dueling fighting style and +5 dex mod is doing (d8 + 2 + 5) twice with the attack action. The beast takes the attack action as commanded by the ranger with a bonus action. The land option from the UA, or panther, gets (d6 + 2 + 4) twice at level 11, which is the damage die, ability mod, and ranger’s proficiency bonus. That’s 42 damage. With no hunters mark or favored foe.
I wasn't talking about you, @Jhfffan, sorry if it appeared like I was targeting you. I have no gripe with you. It's the other two that are hailing the ranger's apparent "perfection" that I'm more annoyed by.
I sure hope that this leak is not real, but given WotC's track record with leaks and "fixing" classes/subclasses, I suspect that this is genuinely what we are getting.
I’m one of the offenders. Third and I...don’t agree on some ranger things. But we both agree that the paladin is a great class and fun to play.
I don’t think the leaks are accurate. If they are, the beast master is going to be CRAZY damage output!
I haven't seen the details on the beast master primal forms, but based on the variant I remember reading it is hardly CRAZY damage. Can you explain your thought process?
3rd-level Beast Master feature, which replaces the Ranger's Companion feature
You magically summon a primal beast, which draws strength from your bond with nature. The best is friendly to you and your companions and obeys your commands. Choose its stat block - Beast of the Land, Beast of the Sea, or Beast of the Sky - Which uses your proficiency bonus (PB) in several places. You also determine the kind of animal the best is, choosing a king appropriate for the stat block. Whatever kind you choose, the beast bears primal markings, indicating it's mystical origin.
In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn nto command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the attack action to command the beast to take the attack action. if you are incapacitated, the beast can take any cation of its choice, not just Dodge.
If the beast has died within the last hour, you can use your action to touch it and expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher. The beast returns to life after 1 minute with all its hit points restored.
When you finish a long rest, you can summon a different primal beast. The new beast appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you, and you choose its stat block and appearance. If you already have a beast from this feature, it vanishes when the new beast appears. The beast also vanishes if you die.
So at level 11 with a beast that does 6 +2 + 4 (from proficiency bonus) twice when it takes the attack action (assuming the rest of the subclass features don’t change as well), the new wording (according to this “leak” which is typed because it has two errors) allows the ranger to take the attack action and have the beast take the attack action with a bonus action command (that is how the beast master will benefit from the new favored foe feature, btw). Let’s say the ranger is using a rapier and the dueling fighting style. That’s a total of 42 average damage. WITHOUT hunter’s mark, favored foe, or anything.
You're going to have to break that down, because I am unclear how a d8+7 (assuming 20 Dex) + 2 pet attacks for 2d6+4+8 (assuming the pet adds pb, which the variant features PDF does not even show) = 42? Even if you rolled max damage it only gets you to 39. A fighter at that level can do 3d12+15 (+45 if using great weapon master) and a rogue could do a d8+6d6+5 , so I am not seeing CRAZY damage here. Is it comparable, sure.
Well, unless the level 11 beast master ability gets changed like the level 3 ability, beasts get to attack twice at this point. A ranger with a rapier and dueling fighting style and +5 dex mod is doing (d8 + 2 + 5) twice with the attack action. The beast takes the attack action as commanded by the ranger with a bonus action. The land option from the UA, or panther, gets (d6 + 2 + 4) twice at level 11, which is the damage die, ability mod, and ranger’s proficiency bonus. That’s 42 damage. With no hunters mark or favored foe.
You can either take 2 attacks and bonus action attack 1 time with pet or give up one of your attacks giving the pet 2, you don't get both, unless I am reading it wrong
Considering the leak doesn't provide a stat block for the new beasts, I can only assume they're the same as the stat block from the old UA. Which, yeah, does not include any sort of extra/multiattack.
Having access to a "free" pseudo Hunter's Mark is still an improvement when it comes to juggling concentration spells, as it means you can start with extra damage and still cast Lightning Arrow if you get the opportunity to do-so (clustered enemies), without losing a spell slot (as you do by ending Hunter's Mark early). That's always been the main problem with concentration for me.
I just don't see why they'd change it from being Hunter's Mark though; seems like a waste to define a sort of copy. Ignoring concentration and being able to freely switch targets was too much, didn't really need those in the UA, but getting Hunter's Mark as standard with some free castings was ideal.
This version… you'll still probably want to take Hunter's Mark as a spell choice, but which one you use will depend on the combat; with fewer, tougher enemies it will probably be better to use Hunter's Mark and just focus on one till it dies as normal, but with more enemies you may prefer to use Favored Foe instead and wait for opportunities to use a concentration AoE spell. Eh… I don't know it feels "fine" I guess, just disappointing.
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It's okay, bordering on underwhelming. The only thing it has on hunter's mark is it doesn't use a bonus action (big whoop) and it doesn't cost a spell slot (more significant, but still underwhelming considering it's other limitations). If it dropped at least one of it's limitations -concentration, single target, one hit per turn- then I'd say it makes a better competitor, but as it is, the only thing it really has going for it is the fact that favored enemy is so bad by comparison.
The UA beast used the PHB rules for the beat master unchanged.. In that ruleset at level 11 the beast can attack twice when is commanded to take the attack action. The leaked change of the third level ability states the beast takes an action via a bonus command (attack action) AND can take the attack action if replacing a ranger attack. Unless they ALSO change the eleventh level subclass ability, at level 11 the ranger can attack twice and the beast can attack twice.
It's okay, bordering on underwhelming. The only thing it has on hunter's mark is it doesn't use a bonus action (big whoop) and it doesn't cost a spell slot (more significant, but still underwhelming considering it's other limitations). If it dropped at least one of it's limitations -concentration, single target, one hit per turn- then I'd say it makes a better competitor, but as it is, the only thing it really has going for it is the fact that favored enemy is so bad by comparison.
Okay, so look at it this way: let's say the ranger casts a concentration spell such as Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, or Lightning Arrow as Haravikk mentioned. They hit, and concentration immediately ends. Now, as part of that hit, the ranger can immediately add +1d4 or more damage to that hit. And they can continue to add damage once per turn for the next minute. As annoying as I find the limitations on it to be, it's (A) necessary to not have it stack with Hunter's Mark and (B) probably no less annoying than a lot of people seem to think Favored Enemy is.
It's okay, bordering on underwhelming. The only thing it has on hunter's mark is it doesn't use a bonus action (big whoop) and it doesn't cost a spell slot (more significant, but still underwhelming considering it's other limitations). If it dropped at least one of it's limitations -concentration, single target, one hit per turn- then I'd say it makes a better competitor, but as it is, the only thing it really has going for it is the fact that favored enemy is so bad by comparison.
Okay, so look at it this way: let's say the ranger casts a concentration spell such as Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, or Lightning Arrow as Haravikk mentioned. They hit, and concentration immediately ends. Now, as part of that hit, the ranger can immediately add +1d4 or more damage to that hit. And they can continue to add damage once per turn for the next minute. As annoying as I find the limitations on it to be, it's (A) necessary to not have it stack with Hunter's Mark and (B) probably no less annoying than a lot of people seem to think Favored Enemy is.
Ensnaring Strike does say that the vines end when the spell ends. I went to that same place, and checked the language carefully and was disappointed on this one. The others I wholeheartedly agree with and that's a trick Hunter's Mark can't duplicate.
This version… you'll still probably want to take Hunter's Mark as a spell choice, but which one you use will depend on the combat; with fewer, tougher enemies it will probably be better to use Hunter's Mark and just focus on one till it dies as normal, but with more enemies you may prefer to use Favored Foe instead and wait for opportunities to use a concentration AoE spell. Eh… I don't know it feels "fine" I guess, just disappointing.
I could see situations where flipping that script could be better, too. If you had one high HP enemy and a few low HP ones, you could lead with an AOE that triggers on a hit and use that hit to mark your target. Most of the others would be dead and you're free to go to town on the high HP one now.
If the larger group has several medium HP enemies and they're not grouped tightly enough for an AOE, then Hunter's Mark and focusing them down might be the best.
Much of this discussion is ignoring the other party members and that should play into the tactics. Favored Foe does give you more options to let you fill the role that you need to fill in the moment in combat.
The whole thing could have been simplified by not having a Concentration mechanic attached and simply stating that the benefit does not work in conjunction with spells like Hunter’s Mark or Hex.
They are probably just using the same future proofing/lazy design on ranger and an surprised they did not make it take an bonus action action as well.
Future-proofing is lazy?
Future-proofing in and of itself is not, the approach with continues to bloat the already limited action economy and concentration depended gameplay of the ranger is lazy, when a simple tag could have been in place from the beginning instead of hamstringing options. The entire class feels like it was rushed and was put in place in a very unpolished state compared to much of the Player's Handbook. The fact that other than a few niche features (some of which can be replaced with arguably better mechanics) you can more or less completely recreate the chaise of the Ranger thru multiclassing, kind of reinforces that impression for me.
They are probably just using the same future proofing/lazy design on ranger and an surprised they did not make it take an bonus action action as well.
Future-proofing is lazy?
Future-proofing in and of itself is not, the approach with continues to bloat the already limited action economy and concentration depended gameplay of the ranger is lazy, when a simple tag could have been in place from the beginning instead of hamstringing options. The entire class feels like it was rushed and was put in place in a very unpolished state compared to much of the Player's Handbook. The fact that other than a few niche features (some of which can be replaced with arguably better mechanics) you can more or less completely recreate the chaise of the Ranger thru multiclassing, kind of reinforces that impression for me.
A tag which only excludes one or two spells does nothing if another spell or mechanic which can be slotted in is introduced later on. Future-proofing may not be pretty, but it lessens the need for full errata later on. As for how it feels rushed when the UA came out 11 months ago (and was probably circulating in-house for a while before and after then), I have no idea. No offense, but it reads like lazy criticism.
In my opinion, the feature looks like it was made for archers. Which I do find disappointing. I'd prefer something a bit more universal. But it's also supposed to be comparable with what it can replace. And considering the low opinion so many people have of Favored Enemy, what else was everyone expecting. The Class Feature Variants aren't intended to serve as buffs. If they were buffs, then there'd be no point in giving players a choice.
And multiclassing is an optional rule that, while it may be permitted in DDAL, is not required at any table. DMs are free to refuse.
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It kind of feels like they almost regret design the ranger to be a class that includes extra attack.
The problem with Hide in Plain sight is that it is an ability that works exactly one time, at the start of combat, assuming you have a FULL MINUTE to prepare. It just isn't that functional. At least the new version you can do in combat anytime and more than once
No worries. I wasn't feeling like it was targeting me, but I couldn't help but comment.
They both have very different uses. Hide in Plain Sight is preparatory. You've set an ambush; probably laid traps. It stacks with Pass without Trace and doesn't take a hiding spot away from an ally. It supports a specific style of play; fighting foes on your terms and catching them by surprise. And it needn't be used immediately. A ranger could, conceivably, continuously cover themselves as they travel, and use it when necessary. Heck, you can probably sleep like that if you're out camping.
Nature's Veil, by comparison, reads to me more like a panic button that uses your bonus action. If you want to hide, that's also your action. If you just want advantage on your attacks and disadvantage to get hit for one round at a time, then you're golden. They're similar, which is the point, but also have very different strengths. Which one you want depends on how you want to play.
I mean, if your using both Pass without Trace and Hide in Plain Sight, I'm just going to say a + ~29 is a bit overkill. You should probably use just one, and by just one probably Pass without a Trace because it benefits party members.
Edit: I think these changes are pretty good, Ranger can now finally get Expertise in survival lol.
Favored Foe is a bit disappointing, but I guess it helps newcomers who might not understand how great hunter's mark is, and doesn't use any spell slots. Not like your using those for anything considering half the ranger list is concentration.
Primal Awareness works, as it's trading utility for... well better utility. I guess the trade off is supposed to be that Primal Awareness doesn't cost spell slots and you don't need it in order to take these spells.
Yeah Nature's Veil is fine. I don't see anything wrong with it.
As for Primal Companion... are the beasts the same as the ones in ACF? Honestly the idea of giving people a selection of balanced creatures of pick from vs having to go though the entire DMG and pray you figure out which ones are best is probably well-needed.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Well, unless the level 11 beast master ability gets changed like the level 3 ability, beasts get to attack twice at this point. A ranger with a rapier and dueling fighting style and +5 dex mod is doing (d8 + 2 + 5) twice with the attack action. The beast takes the attack action as commanded by the ranger with a bonus action. The land option from the UA, or panther, gets (d6 + 2 + 4) twice at level 11, which is the damage die, ability mod, and ranger’s proficiency bonus. That’s 42 damage. With no hunters mark or favored foe.
I’m one of the offenders. Third and I...don’t agree on some ranger things. But we both agree that the paladin is a great class and fun to play.
You can either take 2 attacks and bonus action attack 1 time with pet or give up one of your attacks giving the pet 2, you don't get both, unless I am reading it wrong
Considering the leak doesn't provide a stat block for the new beasts, I can only assume they're the same as the stat block from the old UA. Which, yeah, does not include any sort of extra/multiattack.
Not sure what to make of the leak.
Having access to a "free" pseudo Hunter's Mark is still an improvement when it comes to juggling concentration spells, as it means you can start with extra damage and still cast Lightning Arrow if you get the opportunity to do-so (clustered enemies), without losing a spell slot (as you do by ending Hunter's Mark early). That's always been the main problem with concentration for me.
I just don't see why they'd change it from being Hunter's Mark though; seems like a waste to define a sort of copy. Ignoring concentration and being able to freely switch targets was too much, didn't really need those in the UA, but getting Hunter's Mark as standard with some free castings was ideal.
This version… you'll still probably want to take Hunter's Mark as a spell choice, but which one you use will depend on the combat; with fewer, tougher enemies it will probably be better to use Hunter's Mark and just focus on one till it dies as normal, but with more enemies you may prefer to use Favored Foe instead and wait for opportunities to use a concentration AoE spell. Eh… I don't know it feels "fine" I guess, just disappointing.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It's okay, bordering on underwhelming. The only thing it has on hunter's mark is it doesn't use a bonus action (big whoop) and it doesn't cost a spell slot (more significant, but still underwhelming considering it's other limitations). If it dropped at least one of it's limitations -concentration, single target, one hit per turn- then I'd say it makes a better competitor, but as it is, the only thing it really has going for it is the fact that favored enemy is so bad by comparison.
The UA beast used the PHB rules for the beat master unchanged.. In that ruleset at level 11 the beast can attack twice when is commanded to take the attack action. The leaked change of the third level ability states the beast takes an action via a bonus command (attack action) AND can take the attack action if replacing a ranger attack. Unless they ALSO change the eleventh level subclass ability, at level 11 the ranger can attack twice and the beast can attack twice.
Okay, so look at it this way: let's say the ranger casts a concentration spell such as Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, or Lightning Arrow as Haravikk mentioned. They hit, and concentration immediately ends. Now, as part of that hit, the ranger can immediately add +1d4 or more damage to that hit. And they can continue to add damage once per turn for the next minute. As annoying as I find the limitations on it to be, it's (A) necessary to not have it stack with Hunter's Mark and (B) probably no less annoying than a lot of people seem to think Favored Enemy is.
Ensnaring Strike does say that the vines end when the spell ends. I went to that same place, and checked the language carefully and was disappointed on this one. The others I wholeheartedly agree with and that's a trick Hunter's Mark can't duplicate.
I could see situations where flipping that script could be better, too. If you had one high HP enemy and a few low HP ones, you could lead with an AOE that triggers on a hit and use that hit to mark your target. Most of the others would be dead and you're free to go to town on the high HP one now.
If the larger group has several medium HP enemies and they're not grouped tightly enough for an AOE, then Hunter's Mark and focusing them down might be the best.
Much of this discussion is ignoring the other party members and that should play into the tactics. Favored Foe does give you more options to let you fill the role that you need to fill in the moment in combat.
The whole thing could have been simplified by not having a Concentration mechanic attached and simply stating that the benefit does not work in conjunction with spells like Hunter’s Mark or Hex.
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They are probably just using the same future proofing/lazy design on ranger and an surprised they did not make it take an bonus action action as well.
Future-proofing is lazy?
The way they did it is.
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Future-proofing in and of itself is not, the approach with continues to bloat the already limited action economy and concentration depended gameplay of the ranger is lazy, when a simple tag could have been in place from the beginning instead of hamstringing options. The entire class feels like it was rushed and was put in place in a very unpolished state compared to much of the Player's Handbook. The fact that other than a few niche features (some of which can be replaced with arguably better mechanics) you can more or less completely recreate the chaise of the Ranger thru multiclassing, kind of reinforces that impression for me.
A tag which only excludes one or two spells does nothing if another spell or mechanic which can be slotted in is introduced later on. Future-proofing may not be pretty, but it lessens the need for full errata later on. As for how it feels rushed when the UA came out 11 months ago (and was probably circulating in-house for a while before and after then), I have no idea. No offense, but it reads like lazy criticism.
In my opinion, the feature looks like it was made for archers. Which I do find disappointing. I'd prefer something a bit more universal. But it's also supposed to be comparable with what it can replace. And considering the low opinion so many people have of Favored Enemy, what else was everyone expecting. The Class Feature Variants aren't intended to serve as buffs. If they were buffs, then there'd be no point in giving players a choice.
And multiclassing is an optional rule that, while it may be permitted in DDAL, is not required at any table. DMs are free to refuse.