I love daggers on a Rogue for one simple reason; two-weapon fighting.
Since a Rogue only gets one attack as standard, being able to do a Bonus Action followup attack whenever you miss with the first is invaluable, as it gives you a second chance to inflict Sneak Attack. For that reason my default is always to take two daggers rather than a rapier; I'd only favour a rapier if it fits the character theme better (e.g- intending to play as a Swashbuckler).
can't you just attack with a rapier then a shortsword?
I love daggers on a Rogue for one simple reason; two-weapon fighting.
Since a Rogue only gets one attack as standard, being able to do a Bonus Action followup attack whenever you miss with the first is invaluable, as it gives you a second chance to inflict Sneak Attack. For that reason my default is always to take two daggers rather than a rapier; I'd only favour a rapier if it fits the character theme better (e.g- intending to play as a Swashbuckler).
can't you just attack with a rapier then a shortsword?
Not without the Dual Wielder feat, as the Rapier isn't Light; to use two-weapon fighting as standard you need to attack with a Light weapon during the Attack action, then your Bonus Action attack must also be made with a different Light weapon in another hand.
You could use two shortswords instead of two daggers if you only want to be able to make melee attacks, but IMO two daggers is better as you're only trading an average of 1 damage per attack for the ability to throw them, and also conceal them more easily depending upon your DM.
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As someone who thinks it's a real shame that there isn't a feat enhancing daggers, since it's such an iconic fantasy weapon... It'd ask my DM to reflavor a rapier as a special well crafted dagger, make it a martial weapon and then run with that.
As someone who thinks it's a real shame that there isn't a feat enhancing daggers, since it's such an iconic fantasy weapon... It'd ask my DM to reflavor a rapier as a special well crafted dagger, make it a martial weapon and then run with that.
Another option is the ask your DM to make a feat that somehow makes daggers stronger... Taking inspiration from polearm master, great weapon master and crossbow expert
I feel like a lot of you are missing the point of daggers. They are small blades, so they aren't going to be doing tons of damage. A dagger simply can't inflict the same kind of damage that a greatsword can do. If you want to maximize damage, a dagger is not the weapon for you to use. Any buff you give to a dagger will still be more effective on a higher damage weapon. I'm not saying that making some sort of dagger feat is a bad idea, but a dagger is still a dagger. Daggers have their own advantages such as ease of concealment, dual wielding, and aesthetics. Using a dagger means using a dagger, not a rapier reskinned as a dagger.
I'm not sure if you mean the point of daggers in terms of reality or game mechanics. If we're talking reality, then daggers are extremely effective weapons under the right conditions, which is what those of us who'd like to see them be more effective would like to see. Greatsword or a Glaive is obviously gonna be more dangerous on a single attack, but once you move into optimal dagger range, those weapons become far less effective and the dagger user can get a ton of stabs in quickly... A regular person wouldn't use daggers as primary weapons of war due to their poor range, but many knights have probably been finished off by a well placed dagger to the eye.
So if we have an agile hero character, like a rogue, dex fighter or monk.. who can close that gap with super human grace, you'd expect them to take advantage of those factors.
Personally I would like to see some kind of benefit like an extra attack when grappling and wielding a dagger or something, that'd be pretty cool.
I never said daggers aren't effective weapons, simply that they can't inflict the same damage as a larger blade. My point is that if you attack 4 times with a dagger, you will do less damage than 4 attacks with a great sword. I know that you can attack faster with a smaller blade, but that's not how it works in D&D.
If you want to make a feat representing this faster possible attack speed, you could make a feat called "Small weapon expert". When attacking with a small weapon (a light weapon with 1D4 damage die) in your main hand, raise the attack's damage to 2d4. This represents you doing two quick hits with one attack.
After the first few levels, most of your damage will come from sneak attack. But if you really don't like the d4s, just use short swords and describe them as long daggers.
I never said daggers aren't effective weapons, simply that they can't inflict the same damage as a larger blade. My point is that if you attack 4 times with a dagger, you will do less damage than 4 attacks with a great sword. I know that you can attack faster with a smaller blade, but that's not how it works in D&D.
Actually it is; that's what the light property and two-weapon fighting is for. You can achieve the same benefit with a pair of shortswords but for an extra one damage per attack, you're losing the dagger's ability to be thrown (or thrown with proficiency, since you can technically throw any weapon using improvised weapon rules), and it's easier to argue with your DM that a dagger is concealed.
As I said, being able to make a second attack is a big deal for a Rogue because it gives you a second attempt to sneak attack if you missed with the first, it also means you've always got another bonus action for when a Cunning Action doesn't make sense, e.g- you just moved into range, so you won't get far enough to make disengaging worthwhile), in which case you can deal a little extra damage.
It's also worth considering that there are quite a lot of good magical daggers for Rogue type characters; there are some magical shortswords out there, but it's more common to see daggers or longswords.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I never said daggers aren't effective weapons, simply that they can't inflict the same damage as a larger blade. My point is that if you attack 4 times with a dagger, you will do less damage than 4 attacks with a great sword. I know that you can attack faster with a smaller blade, but that's not how it works in D&D.
Actually it is; that's what the light property and two-weapon fighting is for. You can achieve the same benefit with a pair of shortswords but for an extra one damage per attack, you're losing the dagger's ability to be thrown (or thrown with proficiency, since you can technically throw any weapon using improvised weapon rules), and it's easier to argue with your DM that a dagger is concealed.
As I said, being able to make a second attack is a big deal for a Rogue because it gives you a second attempt to sneak attack if you missed with the first, it also means you've always got another bonus action for when a Cunning Action doesn't make sense, e.g- you just moved into range, so you won't get far enough to make disengaging worthwhile), in which case you can deal a little extra damage.
It's also worth considering that there are quite a lot of good magical daggers for Rogue type characters; there are some magical shortswords out there, but it's more common to see daggers or longswords.
That's not entirely correct. You're not attacking faster with a smaller weapon, you're just getting an extra hit with a second weapon. A shortsword can also do two more damage, not one.
I'd like to once again reinstate that I don't think daggers are bad weapons. I actually just started playing a rogue and I'm going to be using daggers as my primary melee weapons. My point is that if you are trying to maximize damage, you can't rely on using daggers.
That's not entirely correct. You're not attacking faster with a smaller weapon, you're just getting an extra hit with a second weapon.
My point is that it's the lightness/speed of the weapon that enables you do-so though. I've said in other threads but it's better not to think of the light property as being the weight of a weapon, but it being fast enough to make a followup attack with.
I've never liked that two-weapon fighting requires a second weapon in RAW, my groups usually allow an additional attack with the same light weapon, but that's not really useful for general discussion.
A shortsword can also do two more damage, not one.
Actually I said an average of 1 damage extra per attack (should really be hit), same difference though. It's a tiny boost in damage, for the loss of thrown. This partly comes down to the fact that 5e probably simplified weapons too much, as a dagger should absolutely be faster than a shortsword, but apparently it's throwability that WotC decided was important (despite most actual daggers not being suitable for that).
I'd like to once again reinstate that I don't think daggers are bad weapons. I actually just started playing a rogue and I'm going to be using daggers as my primary melee weapons. My point is that if you are trying to maximize damage, you can't rely on using daggers.
Maximising damage for a Rogue is about getting your sneak attacks in; an extra 2-ish damage per round with two shortswords is unlikely to really make a difference, and the extra 2-ish from a rapier with one less attack is noticeably weaker (no option of a followup attack).
I'd argue that the versatility of a dagger also being a throwing weapon is better than a tiny bit of extra damage as it means you can make a ranged attack without having to switch weapons. While that can be a bit niche, if it means you can get a second sneak attack attempt in when you'd otherwise only get one (due to having to Dash with your bonus action) or being able to sneak attack at range to avoid some area effect, then it you'll be thankful for it, and really what rogue doesn't have a dozen daggers to throw, just in case? 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Don't know about other editions, but I remember in 4e the enticement to use daggers was that rogues got an extra +1 to hit with them. I wouldn't hate that in 5e.
But bottom line, the whole design of rogues - attack once with a bunch of extra damage tacked on - has the effect of minimizing the importance of the weapon die. Personally I think giving rogue native proficiency in rapiers was a mistake - a very specialized, niche weapon is the default pick for melee rogues and people like OP have trouble reasoning why they'd use anything else.
At any rate, if you really want a dagger but need weapon damage, you can always hope for a dragontooth dagger for that sweet extra 1d6.
Don't know about other editions, but I remember in 4e the enticement to use daggers was that rogues got an extra +1 to hit with them. I wouldn't hate that in 5e.
But bottom line, the whole design of rogues - attack once with a bunch of extra damage tacked on - has the effect of minimizing the importance of the weapon die. Personally I think giving rogue native proficiency in rapiers was a mistake - a very specialized, niche weapon is the default pick for melee rogues and people like OP have trouble reasoning why they'd use anything else.
At any rate, if you really want a dagger but need weapon damage, you can always hope for a dragontooth dagger for that sweet extra 1d6.
I think the rapier has its place. If you aren't focused on TWF, and most rogues aren't, then it's a fine choice. It synergizes well with the Thief roguish archetype and it's ability to [Tooltip Not Found] some acid or alchemist's fire as an improvised weapon. Yeah, it's niche. But that's the point.
But if you'd rather want to be a switch hitter, with the option to attack twice, then a shortsword and some daggers are what you want. It's probably what most rogues would want.
can't you just attack with a rapier then a shortsword?
Not without the Dual Wielder feat, as the Rapier isn't Light; to use two-weapon fighting as standard you need to attack with a Light weapon during the Attack action, then your Bonus Action attack must also be made with a different Light weapon in another hand.
You could use two shortswords instead of two daggers if you only want to be able to make melee attacks, but IMO two daggers is better as you're only trading an average of 1 damage per attack for the ability to throw them, and also conceal them more easily depending upon your DM.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
As someone who thinks it's a real shame that there isn't a feat enhancing daggers, since it's such an iconic fantasy weapon... It'd ask my DM to reflavor a rapier as a special well crafted dagger, make it a martial weapon and then run with that.
Yeah, I thought about that
Another option is the ask your DM to make a feat that somehow makes daggers stronger... Taking inspiration from polearm master, great weapon master and crossbow expert
other than the pole arms though those weapons were already powerful
I feel like a lot of you are missing the point of daggers. They are small blades, so they aren't going to be doing tons of damage. A dagger simply can't inflict the same kind of damage that a greatsword can do. If you want to maximize damage, a dagger is not the weapon for you to use. Any buff you give to a dagger will still be more effective on a higher damage weapon. I'm not saying that making some sort of dagger feat is a bad idea, but a dagger is still a dagger.
Daggers have their own advantages such as ease of concealment, dual wielding, and aesthetics. Using a dagger means using a dagger, not a rapier reskinned as a dagger.
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I'm not sure if you mean the point of daggers in terms of reality or game mechanics. If we're talking reality, then daggers are extremely effective weapons under the right conditions, which is what those of us who'd like to see them be more effective would like to see. Greatsword or a Glaive is obviously gonna be more dangerous on a single attack, but once you move into optimal dagger range, those weapons become far less effective and the dagger user can get a ton of stabs in quickly... A regular person wouldn't use daggers as primary weapons of war due to their poor range, but many knights have probably been finished off by a well placed dagger to the eye.
So if we have an agile hero character, like a rogue, dex fighter or monk.. who can close that gap with super human grace, you'd expect them to take advantage of those factors.
Personally I would like to see some kind of benefit like an extra attack when grappling and wielding a dagger or something, that'd be pretty cool.
I never said daggers aren't effective weapons, simply that they can't inflict the same damage as a larger blade. My point is that if you attack 4 times with a dagger, you will do less damage than 4 attacks with a great sword. I know that you can attack faster with a smaller blade, but that's not how it works in D&D.
If you want to make a feat representing this faster possible attack speed, you could make a feat called "Small weapon expert". When attacking with a small weapon (a light weapon with 1D4 damage die) in your main hand, raise the attack's damage to 2d4. This represents you doing two quick hits with one attack.
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After the first few levels, most of your damage will come from sneak attack. But if you really don't like the d4s, just use short swords and describe them as long daggers.
Actually it is; that's what the light property and two-weapon fighting is for. You can achieve the same benefit with a pair of shortswords but for an extra one damage per attack, you're losing the dagger's ability to be thrown (or thrown with proficiency, since you can technically throw any weapon using improvised weapon rules), and it's easier to argue with your DM that a dagger is concealed.
As I said, being able to make a second attack is a big deal for a Rogue because it gives you a second attempt to sneak attack if you missed with the first, it also means you've always got another bonus action for when a Cunning Action doesn't make sense, e.g- you just moved into range, so you won't get far enough to make disengaging worthwhile), in which case you can deal a little extra damage.
It's also worth considering that there are quite a lot of good magical daggers for Rogue type characters; there are some magical shortswords out there, but it's more common to see daggers or longswords.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
That's not entirely correct. You're not attacking faster with a smaller weapon, you're just getting an extra hit with a second weapon. A shortsword can also do two more damage, not one.
I'd like to once again reinstate that I don't think daggers are bad weapons. I actually just started playing a rogue and I'm going to be using daggers as my primary melee weapons. My point is that if you are trying to maximize damage, you can't rely on using daggers.
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My point is that it's the lightness/speed of the weapon that enables you do-so though. I've said in other threads but it's better not to think of the light property as being the weight of a weapon, but it being fast enough to make a followup attack with.
I've never liked that two-weapon fighting requires a second weapon in RAW, my groups usually allow an additional attack with the same light weapon, but that's not really useful for general discussion.
Actually I said an average of 1 damage extra per attack (should really be hit), same difference though. It's a tiny boost in damage, for the loss of thrown. This partly comes down to the fact that 5e probably simplified weapons too much, as a dagger should absolutely be faster than a shortsword, but apparently it's throwability that WotC decided was important (despite most actual daggers not being suitable for that).
Maximising damage for a Rogue is about getting your sneak attacks in; an extra 2-ish damage per round with two shortswords is unlikely to really make a difference, and the extra 2-ish from a rapier with one less attack is noticeably weaker (no option of a followup attack).
I'd argue that the versatility of a dagger also being a throwing weapon is better than a tiny bit of extra damage as it means you can make a ranged attack without having to switch weapons. While that can be a bit niche, if it means you can get a second sneak attack attempt in when you'd otherwise only get one (due to having to Dash with your bonus action) or being able to sneak attack at range to avoid some area effect, then it you'll be thankful for it, and really what rogue doesn't have a dozen daggers to throw, just in case? 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Don't know about other editions, but I remember in 4e the enticement to use daggers was that rogues got an extra +1 to hit with them. I wouldn't hate that in 5e.
But bottom line, the whole design of rogues - attack once with a bunch of extra damage tacked on - has the effect of minimizing the importance of the weapon die. Personally I think giving rogue native proficiency in rapiers was a mistake - a very specialized, niche weapon is the default pick for melee rogues and people like OP have trouble reasoning why they'd use anything else.
At any rate, if you really want a dagger but need weapon damage, you can always hope for a dragontooth dagger for that sweet extra 1d6.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I think the rapier has its place. If you aren't focused on TWF, and most rogues aren't, then it's a fine choice. It synergizes well with the Thief roguish archetype and it's ability to [Tooltip Not Found] some acid or alchemist's fire as an improvised weapon. Yeah, it's niche. But that's the point.
But if you'd rather want to be a switch hitter, with the option to attack twice, then a shortsword and some daggers are what you want. It's probably what most rogues would want.