Are we ok on shoving or grappling as AoO? I can see an AoO with Soul Knife's psychic blade being waved off and DM narratively handwavium explaining that the psychic blade requires a mental intentionality beyond the parameters of an AoO; but if the game was amenable to shoves and grapples as AoO, I could say the Soul Knife could attempt to intervene by shoving the target or grappling the target, release as a free action then setting their mind to soul knifing as their attack action.
No, both the Shove and Grapple actions require the creature to use the Attack action. That does not happen during an Opportunity Attack. It is expressly against RAW to allow either Shoving or Grappling as an OA. That’s part of what makes the Sentinel feat so strong.
I actually created a homebrewed feat expressly for the purpose of making that an option for one of my players:
Are we ok on shoving or grappling as AoO? I can see an AoO with Soul Knife's psychic blade being waved off and DM narratively handwavium explaining that the psychic blade requires a mental intentionality beyond the parameters of an AoO; but if the game was amenable to shoves and grapples as AoO, I could say the Soul Knife could attempt to intervene by shoving the target or grappling the target, release as a free action then setting their mind to soul knifing as their attack action.
No, both the Shove and Grapple actions require the creature to use the Attack action. That does not happen during an Opportunity Attack. It is expressly against RAW to allow either Shoving or Grappling as an OA. That’s part of what makes the Sentinel feat so strong.
I actually created a homebrewed feat expressly for the purpose of making that an option for one of my players:
Although, in the case of Soulknives’ Psychic Blades, I would allow their use for OAs.
So my brawn isn't able to set up my brain's chance to flex. Very well. I guess then, since I sort of already enamored myself with an explanation as to why psych blades can't be used as AOA, maybe the Soul Knife can issue a parting punch/unarmed strike AOA while their mind knows there's more coming, maybe.
Cool feat. While I am accepting of the logic behind barring the Soul Knife, I am now re-experiencing my initial dismay when I read 5e put grappling and shoving in a corner and thereby made 5e less the squared circle it could be (and then promptly forgot and allow all sorts of off the turnbuckle mayhem in my game). Or to use another, and real, sport allusion, Gritty I'm sure has seen all sorts of unarmed moves being used as reactions by hockey players (though I guess you could assume an NHL player has the Hands On feat).
Much of this is left up to a certain level of interpretation. There is a comparison of the psychic blades to a spell. Consider The Rules for Spellcasting, specifically the portion on "Can you use a melee attack spell to make an opportunity attack?"
"You can’t if the spell attack is created by casting a spell. When a creature triggers an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against it. The opportunity attack doesn’t suddenly give you the ability to cast a spell, such as shocking grasp.
Each spell has a casting time. A game feature, such as an opportunity attack, doesn’t let you bypass that casting time, unless the feature says otherwise. The War Caster feat is an example of a feature that does let you bypass a 1-action casting time to cast a spell in place of an opportunity attack.
A few monsters can make opportunity attacks with melee spell attacks. Here’s how: certain monsters—including the banshee, lich, and specter—have a melee spell attack that isn’t delivered by a spell. For example, the banshee’s Corrupting Touch action is a melee spell attack but no spell is cast to make it. The banshee can, therefore, make opportunity attacks with Corrupting Touch."
If the psychic blade is like the banshee's corrupting touch, the lich's paralyzing touch or the specter's life drain where the attack itself is the spell, then the psychic blades can have an opportunity attack.
Do the psychic blades require a verbal, somatic or material component? I don't think so (not mentioned). That said, that doesn't mean it just happens every time they swing their hands around. There is a purpose to the action. Does concentration account for why it's only on the Attack (not attack) action. It's really up to the individual DM (at least until we hear any official ruling... but even then, each table's world is the DM's laws of psychics). I think there is a case either way, as it's not called out as a special melee attack (like grappling and shoving)... though I agree, those seem odd to have been excluded, which is (as pointed out) why the Sentinel feat is so powerful. Polearm Master + Sentinel feat.. on a bugbear with a halberd. Fun times.
There really needs to be a clarification from someone like Crawford or Merles concerning this sub class feature. As it stands now the subclass is seriously ****** if you are wanting to only utilize the psychic blades as your characters only weapons
Personally, I'm not overly concerned. The opportunity attack option means my character has not used his bonus action to disengage and create distance. I tend to not put my rogue into too many places where he's having this option. I hit and run (in to attack, disengage out with bonus action) and only if there is another member of the team there (we use the flanking rules, so we garner advantage). We also use group initiative and group combat, so we can split our actions/bonus actions up as a party. This tends to leave the heavy hitters in near to the fight while rogues and archery hit from a distance.
But, unless a ruling comes down for Sage Advice, it's really up to the DM. Another question about opportunity attacks with the psychic blades would be, which size blade is used? 1d6+modifier or 1d4+modifier.
Things I considered when picking the SoulKnife & how I'd use them: - I plan to have a magic weapon to use, at some point, for melee combat, which may leave my psychic blades for ranged attacks. - I don't plan to be cornered and move away from most melee ranged combat in order to minimize my own risk. - Being able to hit with a weapon that disappears adds mystery and potential for fun, especially if fighting in the shadows (hide, hit, hide, hit, hide, hit)... the psionic bolster knack makes this even more possible, as it can add an additional die role to add to the stealth role.
Downside: -If I get cornered, I'm squishy and will likely do everything to run, like disengage and use my bonus action to dash (live to fight another day). Then start hiding (if possible).
Opportunity Attacks: - I've yet to have one, but I tend to play at range and only use hit and run melee tactics. It has not come up for me (yet). For me, its not a concern.
Psychic Blades are simple weapons, dealing 1d6 psychic damage, with the Finesse and Thrown (20/60) properties. They lack the Light property, and so cannot be used with manufactured weapons for the purpose of Two-Weapon Fighting without the Dual Wielder feat. But as a trade-off, you don't need the feat. They can attack anyway with a 1d4 blade that carries all the same properties. They both disappear as soon as the attack is resolved, regardless of whether or not it hits and does damage.
Yeah, it looks like you can't use them for opportunity attacks. That's a bummer.
There is a leap of logic here: "They both disappear as soon as the attack is resolved". RAW, nowhere does it say the second blade disappears, only the first. The second blade should be available for the AoO (RAW) which implies (IMO) the first should too (RAI); the "disappearing" feature is meant to be a bonus not a penalty.
Psychic Blades are simple weapons, dealing 1d6 psychic damage, with the Finesse and Thrown (20/60) properties. They lack the Light property, and so cannot be used with manufactured weapons for the purpose of Two-Weapon Fighting without the Dual Wielder feat. But as a trade-off, you don't need the feat. They can attack anyway with a 1d4 blade that carries all the same properties. They both disappear as soon as the attack is resolved, regardless of whether or not it hits and does damage.
Yeah, it looks like you can't use them for opportunity attacks. That's a bummer.
There is a leap of logic here: "They both disappear as soon as the attack is resolved". RAW, nowhere does it say the second blade disappears, only the first. The second blade should be available for the AoO (RAW) which implies (IMO) the first should too (RAI); the "disappearing" feature is meant to be a bonus not a penalty.
Actually yes it does say that the second blade disappears. Because it has all of the same properties of the first blade except for 1 exception. it does a d4 damage instead of a d6. Disappearing after the attack is made regardless of success is a property of the psychic blade and the ability that allows the creation of a second blade does not in any way change that characteristic just like it does not change the range characteristics of the psychic blade.
If we used your logic the second blade would also not be able to be thrown because it would not have a range increment and the thrown property like the first blade does. However the part about the second blade specifically states that it can be used in melee or thrown. Which is the signifier that all properties of the first blade apply to the second blade except for the damage die which is decreased appropriately by RaW. There is no leap in logic to be had by them disappearing except in your attempt to try and apply some of the properties of the weapon and not others as suits the outcome your suggesting. There is also no indication whether the disappearing feature in any way is meant to be a bonus or a penalty in the way that it is written.
I guess my general point was all of this requires at least *some* interpretation because things like "it has all of the same properties of the first blade" are not specifically stated. I agree that is *implied* by the wording you cite but it's still not RAW, in my opinion. The part about bonus vs penalty was also only my opinion; I don't pretend to know the dedigners' intent. Perhaps a future errata (or at least Sage Advice) will provide the needed clarification.
One option I have come up with is taking one or two levels of monk as a MC. Mostly to enable unarmed strikes with a better damage output for AoO and the option to flurry of blows for an added attack with same damage output as the BA psychic blade. Also a third level in monk if you want a particular monastic tradition i.e. way of shadow to gain pass without trace and silence for dealing with enemy spellcasters.
I have always loved the soulknife. This edition soulknife is overall great but not being able to use them for opportunity attacks or other non-attack action attacks really hurts. The Psychic Blades only appearing on the attack action kills the class for me. What should be the defining feature, has ****** the class. Gone are the days of walking around with glowing blades extending from your hands. I remember being able to intimidate the orc prisoner for information by waving the glowing blade in his face. This has killed the soulknife for me. Very sad but I will not be playing a soulknife in its current form. Luckily there are many other classes that I enjoy.
Soulknife RAW is complete garbage. A +1 dagger is superior to psychic knife because you have better chance to hit, you can make attacks of opportunity (remember you can sneak attack on AoO) and if you have extra attack feature you can use that as well. It does the same average damage and can't be resisted or immune as easy. Get a +1 shortsword or +1 rapier and the gap just increases.
RAW the answer is cleary no, you can not AOO with a psychic blade.
I don't see this as a big problem though, a wizard who cast a cantrip can't make an AOO either unless they made sure to have a melee weapon in hand, and if it is his staff spell focus, well he can attack but both the roll and damage will suck. Likewise a bowman or crossbowman martial (to include melee CBEs) are not going to get an AOO either.
So I don't see it as a big limfac for a Rogue, especially since if you are engaged with an enemy there is a good chance you will have uncanny dodge competing for your reaction.
The best way to allow a Soulknife to make Opportunity Attacks without having to mess around too much with the free object interaction is to take the Fighting Initiate (Thrown Weapon) feat. This way you can make your attacks with Psychic Blades on your turn, not draw a melee weapon, and then if someone draws an Opportunity Attack from you, you can draw a Dagger as part of the Opportunity Attack with it since the Dagger has the Thrown property. Then on your turn you can use your free object interaction to stow the dagger.
Alternatively, the "free action drop, object interaction pick up" shenanigans can work too, though I find that to be kinda cheesed.
Thrown Weapon Fighting definitely seems like a good choice since the weapons made manifest via Psychic Blades also have the Thrown property. The only hitch is an Opportunity Attack takes place before the target leaves your reach. If you attempt to throw even a dart, you're doing so at disadvantage unless you have a way to offset that. Which means investing in something like Crossbow Expert. And if you're doing that, rhetorical question incoming, why are you bothering with Psychic Blades?
War Caster has a similar drawback. Any spell which targets a single creature is viable, and most people lean on certain cantrips (especially booming blade) for that extra oomph. Any single target spell will work, but anything that's a ranged attack is going to suffer disadvantage. However, ranged spells that force a saving throw are good. If the target is humanoid, you can hit them with hold person. And blight will work against anyone. Heck, with War Caster, a cleric with inflict wounds prepared can hit the target without dropping their weapon. Pretty good, if you ask me.
You don't have to throw the weapon as part of the attack for the first line of Thrown Weapon style.
Thrown weapon style, as written, allows you to draw a weapon with the Thrown property "as part of the attack you make with the weapon" but neglects to specify a Ranged Weapon Attack must be made with it. RAW you can draw a weapon with the Thrown property and make a Melee Weapon Attack with it.
The only problem that I see with using the Thrown Weapon fighting style to make sure that you have access to a weapon for an AoO is that, if you have that fighting style, you are probably (my interpretation) a ranged rogue and much less likely to be eligible to make AoOs as the creature is already out of range of your melee range.
You could take the Fighting Initiate feat, and choose The Thrown Weapon Fighting. It allows you to draw a thrown weapon with your attack action. Plus you'll get a +2 to damage on your psychic blades when you throw them.
In the PHB (page 136), it is clearly stated in the first line under Psychic Blades "You can manifest shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action or make an Opportunity Attack, you can manifest a Psychic Blade [...]"
So, I fail to see the problem here.
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No, both the Shove and Grapple actions require the creature to use the Attack action. That does not happen during an Opportunity Attack. It is expressly against RAW to allow either Shoving or Grappling as an OA. That’s part of what makes the Sentinel feat so strong.
I actually created a homebrewed feat expressly for the purpose of making that an option for one of my players:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/435021-hands-on-training
Although, in the case of Soulknives’ Psychic Blades, I would allow their use for OAs.
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So my brawn isn't able to set up my brain's chance to flex. Very well. I guess then, since I sort of already enamored myself with an explanation as to why psych blades can't be used as AOA, maybe the Soul Knife can issue a parting punch/unarmed strike AOA while their mind knows there's more coming, maybe.
Cool feat. While I am accepting of the logic behind barring the Soul Knife, I am now re-experiencing my initial dismay when I read 5e put grappling and shoving in a corner and thereby made 5e less the squared circle it could be (and then promptly forgot and allow all sorts of off the turnbuckle mayhem in my game). Or to use another, and real, sport allusion, Gritty I'm sure has seen all sorts of unarmed moves being used as reactions by hockey players (though I guess you could assume an NHL player has the Hands On feat).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Much of this is left up to a certain level of interpretation. There is a comparison of the psychic blades to a spell. Consider The Rules for Spellcasting, specifically the portion on "Can you use a melee attack spell to make an opportunity attack?"
"You can’t if the spell attack is created by casting a spell. When a creature triggers an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against it. The opportunity attack doesn’t suddenly give you the ability to cast a spell, such as shocking grasp.
Each spell has a casting time. A game feature, such as an opportunity attack, doesn’t let you bypass that casting time, unless the feature says otherwise. The War Caster feat is an example of a feature that does let you bypass a 1-action casting time to cast a spell in place of an opportunity attack.
A few monsters can make opportunity attacks with melee spell attacks. Here’s how: certain monsters—including the banshee, lich, and specter—have a melee spell attack that isn’t delivered by a spell. For example, the banshee’s Corrupting Touch action is a melee spell attack but no spell is cast to make it. The banshee can, therefore, make opportunity attacks with Corrupting Touch."
If the psychic blade is like the banshee's corrupting touch, the lich's paralyzing touch or the specter's life drain where the attack itself is the spell, then the psychic blades can have an opportunity attack.
Do the psychic blades require a verbal, somatic or material component? I don't think so (not mentioned). That said, that doesn't mean it just happens every time they swing their hands around. There is a purpose to the action. Does concentration account for why it's only on the Attack (not attack) action. It's really up to the individual DM (at least until we hear any official ruling... but even then, each table's world is the DM's laws of psychics). I think there is a case either way, as it's not called out as a special melee attack (like grappling and shoving)... though I agree, those seem odd to have been excluded, which is (as pointed out) why the Sentinel feat is so powerful. Polearm Master + Sentinel feat.. on a bugbear with a halberd. Fun times.
There really needs to be a clarification from someone like Crawford or Merles concerning this sub class feature. As it stands now the subclass is seriously ****** if you are wanting to only utilize the psychic blades as your characters only weapons
Personally, I'm not overly concerned. The opportunity attack option means my character has not used his bonus action to disengage and create distance. I tend to not put my rogue into too many places where he's having this option. I hit and run (in to attack, disengage out with bonus action) and only if there is another member of the team there (we use the flanking rules, so we garner advantage). We also use group initiative and group combat, so we can split our actions/bonus actions up as a party. This tends to leave the heavy hitters in near to the fight while rogues and archery hit from a distance.
But, unless a ruling comes down for Sage Advice, it's really up to the DM. Another question about opportunity attacks with the psychic blades would be, which size blade is used? 1d6+modifier or 1d4+modifier.
Things I considered when picking the SoulKnife & how I'd use them:
- I plan to have a magic weapon to use, at some point, for melee combat, which may leave my psychic blades for ranged attacks.
- I don't plan to be cornered and move away from most melee ranged combat in order to minimize my own risk.
- Being able to hit with a weapon that disappears adds mystery and potential for fun, especially if fighting in the shadows (hide, hit, hide, hit, hide, hit)... the psionic bolster knack makes this even more possible, as it can add an additional die role to add to the stealth role.
Downside:
-If I get cornered, I'm squishy and will likely do everything to run, like disengage and use my bonus action to dash (live to fight another day). Then start hiding (if possible).
Opportunity Attacks:
- I've yet to have one, but I tend to play at range and only use hit and run melee tactics. It has not come up for me (yet). For me, its not a concern.
There is a leap of logic here: "They both disappear as soon as the attack is resolved". RAW, nowhere does it say the second blade disappears, only the first. The second blade should be available for the AoO (RAW) which implies (IMO) the first should too (RAI); the "disappearing" feature is meant to be a bonus not a penalty.
Actually yes it does say that the second blade disappears. Because it has all of the same properties of the first blade except for 1 exception. it does a d4 damage instead of a d6. Disappearing after the attack is made regardless of success is a property of the psychic blade and the ability that allows the creation of a second blade does not in any way change that characteristic just like it does not change the range characteristics of the psychic blade.
If we used your logic the second blade would also not be able to be thrown because it would not have a range increment and the thrown property like the first blade does. However the part about the second blade specifically states that it can be used in melee or thrown. Which is the signifier that all properties of the first blade apply to the second blade except for the damage die which is decreased appropriately by RaW. There is no leap in logic to be had by them disappearing except in your attempt to try and apply some of the properties of the weapon and not others as suits the outcome your suggesting. There is also no indication whether the disappearing feature in any way is meant to be a bonus or a penalty in the way that it is written.
I guess my general point was all of this requires at least *some* interpretation because things like "it has all of the same properties of the first blade" are not specifically stated. I agree that is *implied* by the wording you cite but it's still not RAW, in my opinion. The part about bonus vs penalty was also only my opinion; I don't pretend to know the dedigners' intent. Perhaps a future errata (or at least Sage Advice) will provide the needed clarification.
One option I have come up with is taking one or two levels of monk as a MC. Mostly to enable unarmed strikes with a better damage output for AoO and the option to flurry of blows for an added attack with same damage output as the BA psychic blade. Also a third level in monk if you want a particular monastic tradition i.e. way of shadow to gain pass without trace and silence for dealing with enemy spellcasters.
I have always loved the soulknife. This edition soulknife is overall great but not being able to use them for opportunity attacks or other non-attack action attacks really hurts. The Psychic Blades only appearing on the attack action kills the class for me. What should be the defining feature, has ****** the class. Gone are the days of walking around with glowing blades extending from your hands. I remember being able to intimidate the orc prisoner for information by waving the glowing blade in his face. This has killed the soulknife for me. Very sad but I will not be playing a soulknife in its current form. Luckily there are many other classes that I enjoy.
That’s why I houseruled they can use the d4 version for OAs. It just made sense.
But I also still use the old version with the Psi die.
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Soulknife RAW is complete garbage. A +1 dagger is superior to psychic knife because you have better chance to hit, you can make attacks of opportunity (remember you can sneak attack on AoO) and if you have extra attack feature you can use that as well. It does the same average damage and can't be resisted or immune as easy. Get a +1 shortsword or +1 rapier and the gap just increases.
RAW the answer is cleary no, you can not AOO with a psychic blade.
I don't see this as a big problem though, a wizard who cast a cantrip can't make an AOO either unless they made sure to have a melee weapon in hand, and if it is his staff spell focus, well he can attack but both the roll and damage will suck. Likewise a bowman or crossbowman martial (to include melee CBEs) are not going to get an AOO either.
So I don't see it as a big limfac for a Rogue, especially since if you are engaged with an enemy there is a good chance you will have uncanny dodge competing for your reaction.
The best way to allow a Soulknife to make Opportunity Attacks without having to mess around too much with the free object interaction is to take the Fighting Initiate (Thrown Weapon) feat. This way you can make your attacks with Psychic Blades on your turn, not draw a melee weapon, and then if someone draws an Opportunity Attack from you, you can draw a Dagger as part of the Opportunity Attack with it since the Dagger has the Thrown property. Then on your turn you can use your free object interaction to stow the dagger.
Alternatively, the "free action drop, object interaction pick up" shenanigans can work too, though I find that to be kinda cheesed.
Thrown Weapon Fighting definitely seems like a good choice since the weapons made manifest via Psychic Blades also have the Thrown property. The only hitch is an Opportunity Attack takes place before the target leaves your reach. If you attempt to throw even a dart, you're doing so at disadvantage unless you have a way to offset that. Which means investing in something like Crossbow Expert. And if you're doing that, rhetorical question incoming, why are you bothering with Psychic Blades?
War Caster has a similar drawback. Any spell which targets a single creature is viable, and most people lean on certain cantrips (especially booming blade) for that extra oomph. Any single target spell will work, but anything that's a ranged attack is going to suffer disadvantage. However, ranged spells that force a saving throw are good. If the target is humanoid, you can hit them with hold person. And blight will work against anyone. Heck, with War Caster, a cleric with inflict wounds prepared can hit the target without dropping their weapon. Pretty good, if you ask me.
You don't have to throw the weapon as part of the attack for the first line of Thrown Weapon style.
Thrown weapon style, as written, allows you to draw a weapon with the Thrown property "as part of the attack you make with the weapon" but neglects to specify a Ranged Weapon Attack must be made with it. RAW you can draw a weapon with the Thrown property and make a Melee Weapon Attack with it.
The only problem that I see with using the Thrown Weapon fighting style to make sure that you have access to a weapon for an AoO is that, if you have that fighting style, you are probably (my interpretation) a ranged rogue and much less likely to be eligible to make AoOs as the creature is already out of range of your melee range.
You could take the Fighting Initiate feat, and choose The Thrown Weapon Fighting. It allows you to draw a thrown weapon with your attack action. Plus you'll get a +2 to damage on your psychic blades when you throw them.
In the PHB (page 136), it is clearly stated in the first line under Psychic Blades "You can manifest shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action or make an Opportunity Attack, you can manifest a Psychic Blade [...]"
So, I fail to see the problem here.