I'll tell you this as somebody who played the 3.5 Spellthief. You don't really ever get to use that feature. If you think about the percentage of fights you have that are against casters, and then the percentage of those fights that involve you getting targeted specifically, you can see the problem.
You could adjust the feature to make it a little more reliable. Change "you're the sole target" to "you're at least one of the targets," and it gets a little bit better, but not much. Change "a harmful spell, and you negate it" to "any spell, and you don't," and now allies can fuel it for you with buffs and heals, but it loses some of its flavor. But that just broadens the power level range of this thing way too much. In some parties it would trigger once every ten sessions, and in others it would be six times every long rest. You could reintroduce the arbitrary limit -- use this only X times per Y -- but at that point it's so ugly. Here's the draft:
Starting at X level, your magical nature reacts strongly to magic cast upon you. Whenever you're the target of a spell, you can use your reaction to gain a number of SP up to the level of the spell, not exceeding your normal limit. (Possible addition: If you gain Y or more SP this way [alt: if you are level W or higher?], you have advantage on any saving throw you make against the triggering spell.) You can gain no more than Z SP this way, and then you must complete a long rest before you can use this feature again.
It's okay, I just think it's a bit of a mess conceptually and wording-wise. Making it playable kind of kills it.
Then perhaps a sort of "refund" mechanic? How about this:
When you cast a Sorcerer spell of a level equal to or less than your Proficiency Bonus and that spell fails to have an effect on at least 1 target, you may use your reaction to regain a number of Sorcery Points equal to the level of the spell. If any Metamagic was used with the spell, you also reclaim 1 Sorcery Point.
In regards to subclass specific metamagic, I had an idea for the Draconic Sorcerers Draconic: for X SP, if you cast a spell that has an area, you may change the range of the spell to be Self (15 ft Cone), originating from your mouth.
What your better off doing is making it an PB/LR ability that allows you to absorb and convert to SP damage dealing spells (AoE and single target) but has no effects on buffs, rebuffs, charms and healing spells. For this I would probably include polymorphs as damage spells.
I really dislike the refund mechanic here. Did you perhaps also just recently see the new Tal'Dorei Tragedy Bard? ;)
I think the breath weapon effect would almost always be a downgrade. In this case I'd want it to generate SP, not cost SP. Not sure how I feel about the various Sorcerers being defined by the unique ways in which they can make their spells *worse*, though, even if they do get value out of it.
I'm sure it's already been mentioned but it just needs a few more things.
Stick in another metamagic choice at 6th level, and publish new metamagics more often. It shouldn't of taken Tasha's to get our first new metamagics since the game came out in 2012.
some form of spell point recovery as a class ability instead of requiring the bloodwell vial
Expanded spell lists like aberrant and clockwork
put back spell versatility that was coming to Tashas
Open up some more spells to sorcerers, stop picking spells based just on "well this doesn't FEEL like a sorcerer spell" That's a horrible way to balance a game (hello a summon please?)
1) The big one... Increase the number of spells learned. The additional spells can be bloodline dependent, but 15 is just too small for a sorc. 20-25 seems better.
2) A way to regenerate sorc points, especially since the 'big' sorcerer ability only regenerated 4 on a short rest... Which is REALLY lame (You need to short rest and it's basically only a level 1 spell slot or a bit more meta-magic)
3) 1-2 more meta-magic's learned as the current number is disappointingly limited without taking that new feat.
4) Just more support in general from the developers.
A fire sorcerer might get, let’s say, four extra metamagics BUT USABLE ONLY WITH FIRE SPELLS
a few more fire spells,
and some means related to fire by which they can gain more sorcery points (perhaps. some sort of personal ritual in which they give themselves damage from fire)
A fire sorcerer might get, let’s say, four extra metamagics BUT USABLE ONLY WITH FIRE SPELLS
a few more fire spells,
and some means related to fire by which they can gain more sorcery points (perhaps. some sort of personal ritual in which they give themselves damage from fire)
"Fire sorcerer" is not a concept that fits into the current paradigm. Both the design of the Sorcerer class, and the design of the game in general, are fighting against a single-damage-type gimmick build, not only in mechanical terms but also thematically. Even the dragon-blood Sorcerer, which has to choose an element by proxy with which to align himself, isn't that.
I will agree that there seems to be a large number of players who want to make elemental characters. And they're unsatisfied with the crumbs they get from Storm Sorcery, Tempest Domain, and Path of the Storm Herald. It might be worth reframing the Sorcerer as an elementalist. Not as a subclass but as a class. The problem there, of course, is that there's only so many elements, and WotC intends to sell content forever.
A fire sorcerer might get, let’s say, four extra metamagics BUT USABLE ONLY WITH FIRE SPELLS
a few more fire spells,
and some means related to fire by which they can gain more sorcery points (perhaps. some sort of personal ritual in which they give themselves damage from fire)
"Fire sorcerer" is not a concept that fits into the current paradigm. Both the design of the Sorcerer class, and the design of the game in general, are fighting against a single-damage-type gimmick build, not only in mechanical terms but also thematically. Even the dragon-blood Sorcerer, which has to choose an element by proxy with which to align himself, isn't that.
I will agree that there seems to be a large number of players who want to make elemental characters. And they're unsatisfied with the crumbs they get from Storm Sorcery, Tempest Domain, and Path of the Storm Herald. It might be worth reframing the Sorcerer as an elementalist. Not as a subclass but as a class. The problem there, of course, is that there's only so many elements, and WotC intends to sell content forever.
See also: Way of the Four Elements monk vs. the Avatar-style Bender everyone wants it to be
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One possibility would be to let sorcs get a number of bonus spells equal to their CHA bonus. That would keep people who dip who aren't CHA-based from getting stupidly powerful but also allow full sorcs a wider range of options.
A fire sorcerer might get, let’s say, four extra metamagics BUT USABLE ONLY WITH FIRE SPELLS
a few more fire spells,
and some means related to fire by which they can gain more sorcery points (perhaps. some sort of personal ritual in which they give themselves damage from fire)
"Fire sorcerer" is not a concept that fits into the current paradigm. Both the design of the Sorcerer class, and the design of the game in general, are fighting against a single-damage-type gimmick build, not only in mechanical terms but also thematically. Even the dragon-blood Sorcerer, which has to choose an element by proxy with which to align himself, isn't that.
I will agree that there seems to be a large number of players who want to make elemental characters. And they're unsatisfied with the crumbs they get from Storm Sorcery, Tempest Domain, and Path of the Storm Herald. It might be worth reframing the Sorcerer as an elementalist. Not as a subclass but as a class. The problem there, of course, is that there's only so many elements, and WotC intends to sell content forever.
The build that I presented would be very overpowered if fire worked on everything. Instead, it is meant to take that in account by allowing the sorcerer to take spells that aren’t fire related.
The idea of a build that does exceptional damage in one area while allowing the build to be good in other areas as well has been seen before in Rangers and anti-undead Clerics.
1) the clerics turn/destroy undead is a special attack that is a save or “die” attack specific to undead not a damage attack affecting e dry thing in its area. ( it is also highly limited in its number of uses) so trying to compare it to a sorceror’s spell (AoE or Single target) is really a matter of apples and pineapples. 2) the ranger’s extra damage features are limited use ( either PB/rest (l/s) or once/ round) and limited to a single D4-D8 of damage that doesn’t scale with level leaving their damage falling behind even cantrips by L11.
Trying to use either as justification for sorcerors getting upgrades beyond metamagic for elemental (or other) spells strikes me as over the top. I can see adding a metamagic you can take to remove a resistance or lower immunity to resistance but granting extra damage whether it is extra dice or counting 1s as 2s or something similar should only be done as a metamagic And you already have empowered and heightened for that As well as transmuted to change the damage type to avoid immunities.
If you really want to upgrade the sorceror allow it 25 spells including subclass spells, the use of light armor and simple weapons and extra sorcery points based on its charisma bonus. With 25 spells it can now take a mostly elemental suite if you want an elemental it’s or any other suite to meet a desired character design.
Trying to use either as justification for sorcerors getting upgrades beyond metamagic for elemental (or other) spells strikes me as over the top. I can see adding a metamagic you can take to remove a resistance or lower immunity to resistance but granting extra damage whether it is extra dice or counting 1s as 2s or something similar should only be done as a metamagic
I thought you were criticizing my suggestion. You're not. Somebody else suggested what you are criticizing.
Mostly, but 4 extra metamagics? Even if only usable on subclass specific spells is a lot. At most with additional metamagics available the most I could see is getting 2 at L3 then an additional 1 every 3 Levels (6, 9, 12, 15, 18) for a total of 7 out of say 14 possible metamagics. If you added that to my other suggestions you would have quite a powerful class.
Mostly, but 4 extra metamagics? Even if only usable on subclass specific spells is a lot. At most with additional metamagics available the most I could see is getting 2 at L3 then an additional 1 every 3 Levels (6, 9, 12, 15, 18) for a total of 7 out of say 14 possible metamagics. If you added that to my other suggestions you would have quite a powerful class.
I'm open to less than 4. I consider that a minor tweak on the overall idea.
I don't know if Sorcerers need more metamagic options. 4 is a good amount, and I tend to notice that if I take Metamagic Adept, that the 6 is probably more than I'm going to want to actually use.
What I do think should be adjusted *when* Sorcerers get metamagic options. The two options from levels 3-9 seems a bit restricted. Maybe move the level 10 one to level 7 which would also let them fix another issue I have with Sorcerers...I think their subclasses should follow the same progression as Warlocks. Level 1, 6, 10 and 14 as opposed to levels 1, 6, 14 and 18.
Move the level 14 ability to level 10 and the level 18 ability to 14. The level 17 metamagic can be moved to level 18 so there is *something* at that level
Right now by RAW with Tasha’s you get a max of 4 out of 10 metamagics. By comparison the battle master gets 9 of 16 maneuvers and 11/16 with the fighting innate feat. My feeling is that by L20 you should have at least half and there should be a feat to get you clearly over half for anything like that.
You forgot about meta-magic adept. That said, 6/10 is still... iffy-ish, especially since you both need to use a feat AND hit level 10/17 to gain new stuff. For comparison a Battle Master has 3 at the start and picks up 4 more by level 10 for a total of 7. I know some people will say that they're weaker than metamagic, but it really doesn't matter. Even the worst maneuver is at leas an OPTION, and if it turns out one is bad you can get up to 4 better ones while a sorc has to wait till 10 to pick up even 1 option (without getting MMA obviously. Can't assume everyone has Tasha's).
Keep in mind, Battle Maneuver’s are a subclass feature and Metamagic are a class feature. So odds are you’ll run into fewer battle masters and then all having the same 9, 10 or 11 isn’t that big of a deal. By limiting it to 4 or 6 with the feat, each Sorcerer isn’t taking the same ones. Empowered, Quickened, Subtle and Twinned are probably my go to options. But Careful, Extended, Heightened are pretty good choices as well and I like that I have to choose. To be honest, I don’t play as a blaster but Distant, Seeking and Transmute are great blaster options
The fact that one is a class ability and the other is a subclass isnt really a problem they are both limited use resources used in much the same way which makes them at least reasonably comparable and for metamagic what else is there to compare it to?
Don't try to fix the sorcerer by turning him into a wizard. Wizards are the ones who rely on how many spells they know, not sorcerers.
The difference between wizards and sorcerers is that sorcerers have such a clear and intimate connection with magic that they can feel the weave around them and manipulate it to create "powerful" effects at the swipe of their finger. I say powerful because in the eyes of wizards, who have absolutely no connection to magic, creating such an effect without that connection will require a lot of concentration, understanding of the magic, and control of your body, to manipulate the weave blindly.
Which is why wizards' mechanic is to expand their spell list, because spells were created by non-connection spellcasters to allow them to mimic these effects repeatedly. This explains why sorcerers have such a lack of spells aswell. Sorcerers thrive off the few spells they know because they can change and buff their few spells so drastically, that the wizards think it's bulls###.
So, remember the mechanic where wizards' intelligence modifiers determine their amount of spells known, I suggest we apply that mechanic to sorcerers by determining their sorcery points with their class level + their Charisma modifier. You could even apply that to monks for their ki points by adding their wisdom modifier as well.
Change the lvl 20 capstone ability to be achieved at a much earlier level, starting off weaker but increases at regular intervals as you level up.
Add more metamagic effects, such as influencing the AOE range or shape, removing the concentration requirement for a couple rounds, cast higher level spells with lower level spell slots. Making metamagics grow more powerful as you level up, such as making Quickened Spell at level 17 remove the bonus casting rule for leveled spells, making Empowered Spell deal maximum damage on your spell, make Heightened Spell apply for increasingly consecutive saving throws, prolong Seeking Spell by rerolling the attack roll up to 3 extra times at the cost of sorcery points, make Twinned Spell target extra creatures for more sorcery points.
Removing the concentration requirement sounds like bulls### though, right? Well, if you think that, then you're a wizard. Sorcerers are supposed to be broken in the few things they can do.
Wizards are the jack of all trades, yet master of none. Sorcerers are the jack of none, yet master of all.
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Then perhaps a sort of "refund" mechanic? How about this:
When you cast a Sorcerer spell of a level equal to or less than your Proficiency Bonus and that spell fails to have an effect on at least 1 target, you may use your reaction to regain a number of Sorcery Points equal to the level of the spell. If any Metamagic was used with the spell, you also reclaim 1 Sorcery Point.
In regards to subclass specific metamagic, I had an idea for the Draconic Sorcerers
Draconic: for X SP, if you cast a spell that has an area, you may change the range of the spell to be Self (15 ft Cone), originating from your mouth.
What your better off doing is making it an PB/LR ability that allows you to absorb and convert to SP damage dealing spells (AoE and single target) but has no effects on buffs, rebuffs, charms and healing spells. For this I would probably include polymorphs as damage spells.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I really dislike the refund mechanic here. Did you perhaps also just recently see the new Tal'Dorei Tragedy Bard? ;)
I think the breath weapon effect would almost always be a downgrade. In this case I'd want it to generate SP, not cost SP. Not sure how I feel about the various Sorcerers being defined by the unique ways in which they can make their spells *worse*, though, even if they do get value out of it.
I'm sure it's already been mentioned but it just needs a few more things.
Stick in another metamagic choice at 6th level, and publish new metamagics more often. It shouldn't of taken Tasha's to get our first new metamagics since the game came out in 2012.
some form of spell point recovery as a class ability instead of requiring the bloodwell vial
Expanded spell lists like aberrant and clockwork
put back spell versatility that was coming to Tashas
Open up some more spells to sorcerers, stop picking spells based just on "well this doesn't FEEL like a sorcerer spell" That's a horrible way to balance a game (hello a summon please?)
So far it seems like the general consensus is...
1) The big one... Increase the number of spells learned. The additional spells can be bloodline dependent, but 15 is just too small for a sorc. 20-25 seems better.
2) A way to regenerate sorc points, especially since the 'big' sorcerer ability only regenerated 4 on a short rest... Which is REALLY lame (You need to short rest and it's basically only a level 1 spell slot or a bit more meta-magic)
3) 1-2 more meta-magic's learned as the current number is disappointingly limited without taking that new feat.
4) Just more support in general from the developers.
That about right?
I’d wrap all of those into the subclasses.
A fire sorcerer might get, let’s say, four extra metamagics BUT USABLE ONLY WITH FIRE SPELLS
a few more fire spells,
and some means related to fire by which they can gain more sorcery points (perhaps. some sort of personal ritual in which they give themselves damage from fire)
"Fire sorcerer" is not a concept that fits into the current paradigm. Both the design of the Sorcerer class, and the design of the game in general, are fighting against a single-damage-type gimmick build, not only in mechanical terms but also thematically. Even the dragon-blood Sorcerer, which has to choose an element by proxy with which to align himself, isn't that.
I will agree that there seems to be a large number of players who want to make elemental characters. And they're unsatisfied with the crumbs they get from Storm Sorcery, Tempest Domain, and Path of the Storm Herald. It might be worth reframing the Sorcerer as an elementalist. Not as a subclass but as a class. The problem there, of course, is that there's only so many elements, and WotC intends to sell content forever.
See also: Way of the Four Elements monk vs. the Avatar-style Bender everyone wants it to be
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One possibility would be to let sorcs get a number of bonus spells equal to their CHA bonus. That would keep people who dip who aren't CHA-based from getting stupidly powerful but also allow full sorcs a wider range of options.
The build that I presented would be very overpowered if fire worked on everything. Instead, it is meant to take that in account by allowing the sorcerer to take spells that aren’t fire related.
The idea of a build that does exceptional damage in one area while allowing the build to be good in other areas as well has been seen before in Rangers and anti-undead Clerics.
A couple of notes on this:
1) the clerics turn/destroy undead is a special attack that is a save or “die” attack specific to undead not a damage attack affecting e dry thing in its area. ( it is also highly limited in its number of uses) so trying to compare it to a sorceror’s spell (AoE or Single target) is really a matter of apples and pineapples.
2) the ranger’s extra damage features are limited use ( either PB/rest (l/s) or once/ round) and limited to a single D4-D8 of damage that doesn’t scale with level leaving their damage falling behind even cantrips by L11.
Trying to use either as justification for sorcerors getting upgrades beyond metamagic for elemental (or other) spells strikes me as over the top. I can see adding a metamagic you can take to remove a resistance or lower immunity to resistance but granting extra damage whether it is extra dice or counting 1s as 2s or something similar should only be done as a metamagic And you already have empowered and heightened for that As well as transmuted to change the damage type to avoid immunities.
If you really want to upgrade the sorceror allow it 25 spells including subclass spells, the use of light armor and simple weapons and extra sorcery points based on its charisma bonus. With 25 spells it can now take a mostly elemental suite if you want an elemental it’s or any other suite to meet a desired character design.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I thought you were criticizing my suggestion. You're not. Somebody else suggested what you are criticizing.
Mostly, but 4 extra metamagics? Even if only usable on subclass specific spells is a lot. At most with additional metamagics available the most I could see is getting 2 at L3 then an additional 1 every 3 Levels (6, 9, 12, 15, 18) for a total of 7 out of say 14 possible metamagics. If you added that to my other suggestions you would have quite a powerful class.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I'm open to less than 4. I consider that a minor tweak on the overall idea.
I don't know if Sorcerers need more metamagic options. 4 is a good amount, and I tend to notice that if I take Metamagic Adept, that the 6 is probably more than I'm going to want to actually use.
What I do think should be adjusted *when* Sorcerers get metamagic options. The two options from levels 3-9 seems a bit restricted. Maybe move the level 10 one to level 7 which would also let them fix another issue I have with Sorcerers...I think their subclasses should follow the same progression as Warlocks. Level 1, 6, 10 and 14 as opposed to levels 1, 6, 14 and 18.
Move the level 14 ability to level 10 and the level 18 ability to 14. The level 17 metamagic can be moved to level 18 so there is *something* at that level
Right now by RAW with Tasha’s you get a max of 4 out of 10 metamagics. By comparison the battle master gets 9 of 16 maneuvers and 11/16 with the fighting innate feat. My feeling is that by L20 you should have at least half and there should be a feat to get you clearly over half for anything like that.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You forgot about meta-magic adept. That said, 6/10 is still... iffy-ish, especially since you both need to use a feat AND hit level 10/17 to gain new stuff. For comparison a Battle Master has 3 at the start and picks up 4 more by level 10 for a total of 7. I know some people will say that they're weaker than metamagic, but it really doesn't matter. Even the worst maneuver is at leas an OPTION, and if it turns out one is bad you can get up to 4 better ones while a sorc has to wait till 10 to pick up even 1 option (without getting MMA obviously. Can't assume everyone has Tasha's).
Keep in mind, Battle Maneuver’s are a subclass feature and Metamagic are a class feature. So odds are you’ll run into fewer battle masters and then all having the same 9, 10 or 11 isn’t that big of a deal. By limiting it to 4 or 6 with the feat, each Sorcerer isn’t taking the same ones. Empowered, Quickened, Subtle and Twinned are probably my go to options. But Careful, Extended, Heightened are pretty good choices as well and I like that I have to choose. To be honest, I don’t play as a blaster but Distant, Seeking and Transmute are great blaster options
The fact that one is a class ability and the other is a subclass isnt really a problem they are both limited use resources used in much the same way which makes them at least reasonably comparable and for metamagic what else is there to compare it to?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Don't try to fix the sorcerer by turning him into a wizard. Wizards are the ones who rely on how many spells they know, not sorcerers.
The difference between wizards and sorcerers is that sorcerers have such a clear and intimate connection with magic that they can feel the weave around them and manipulate it to create "powerful" effects at the swipe of their finger. I say powerful because in the eyes of wizards, who have absolutely no connection to magic, creating such an effect without that connection will require a lot of concentration, understanding of the magic, and control of your body, to manipulate the weave blindly.
Which is why wizards' mechanic is to expand their spell list, because spells were created by non-connection spellcasters to allow them to mimic these effects repeatedly. This explains why sorcerers have such a lack of spells aswell. Sorcerers thrive off the few spells they know because they can change and buff their few spells so drastically, that the wizards think it's bulls###.
So, remember the mechanic where wizards' intelligence modifiers determine their amount of spells known, I suggest we apply that mechanic to sorcerers by determining their sorcery points with their class level + their Charisma modifier. You could even apply that to monks for their ki points by adding their wisdom modifier as well.
Change the lvl 20 capstone ability to be achieved at a much earlier level, starting off weaker but increases at regular intervals as you level up.
Add more metamagic effects, such as influencing the AOE range or shape, removing the concentration requirement for a couple rounds, cast higher level spells with lower level spell slots. Making metamagics grow more powerful as you level up, such as making Quickened Spell at level 17 remove the bonus casting rule for leveled spells, making Empowered Spell deal maximum damage on your spell, make Heightened Spell apply for increasingly consecutive saving throws, prolong Seeking Spell by rerolling the attack roll up to 3 extra times at the cost of sorcery points, make Twinned Spell target extra creatures for more sorcery points.
Removing the concentration requirement sounds like bulls### though, right? Well, if you think that, then you're a wizard. Sorcerers are supposed to be broken in the few things they can do.
Wizards are the jack of all trades, yet master of none. Sorcerers are the jack of none, yet master of all.