I played evoker to 20th level and it was a blast (pun intended).
Realistically though you have to look at your party make up. I picked evocation specifically because the group was very melee heavy and sculpt spell was very nice quiet a few situations.
For potent cantrip, I generally used frostbite since it was guaranteed damage unless the enemy was immune to cold. Almost any cantrip will work, just don't pick one that requires concentration like Create Bonfire.
Empowered Evocation is barely even noticeable at the level you get it. Especially when they specified it must be a spell and not a cantrip. (At least that was the rule when we were playing, it may have changed again.) Besides the argument about magic missile doing 25 damage at that level for a spell slot is kinda crap. Especially when the barbarian is doing about that per hit and getting 2 or 3 attacks per turn. The paladin spikes damage like crazy and the rogue does at least that per round and doesn't get hit, if they're being sneaky.
Overchannel, however is sweet. For maximum impact pick spells that are AoE and have a duration like Sickening Radiance or Dawn. Even Bigby's Hand is fun when you're hitting for 32 per round.
Now the downside. Evokers are blasters. Don't think you've got to have a big evocation spell for every level, especially at higher levels, 8+ really. By tier 3 all my 1st levels spells were defensive, 2nd was a mix of defense and utility. I kept either fireball or lightning bolt for 3rd. Handy even at higher levels, but it became 'I don't have a good idea throw fireball'. I made sure to have one evocation spell know for 4th and 5th. That still leaves quiet a few spells known that you can play with and don't forget your rituals.
This is good insight. I haven’t been lucky to ever get to high levels, so I tend to view things through a tier 1 & 2 lense.
The magic missile trick and being able to blast wantonly into your party are both really fun things that this subclass gets. Is it the strongest wizard? Not by a longshot, but it is enjoyable.
A DM that houserules a nerf to one of the coolest things that one of the weakest wizard subclasses gets is lame, by the way. It's like nerfing a monk's stunning strike, already the worst class, and now you're taking away their coolest thing?
The magic missile trick and being able to blast wantonly into your party are both really fun things that this subclass gets. Is it the strongest wizard? Not by a longshot, but it is enjoyable.
A DM that houserules a nerf to one of the coolest things that one of the weakest wizard subclasses gets is lame, by the way. It's like nerfing a monk's stunning strike, already the worst class, and now you're taking away their coolest thing?
I come down firmly on the 1d4+1 per missile. Magic missile isn't an AoE nor a single target. It's a multi-target spell. However, even if the DM allowed it the other way, it isn't worth it, especially if they allow you to add +INT to your evocation cantrips. And as a tier 3 wizard, you've almost always have so many other and frankly better options.
I wasn't kidding about the damage output, our barbarian did on average 24/hit and got 3 attacks almost every other turn (great weapon master and reckless). A damage out put of 25 for a spell slot isn't worth it. Cast hideous laughter, silent image, or something else to give that paladin adv and smite. Single target just aren't worth it, not unless you're desperate or you're only facing 1 enemy.
The magic missile trick and being able to blast wantonly into your party are both really fun things that this subclass gets. Is it the strongest wizard? Not by a longshot, but it is enjoyable.
A DM that houserules a nerf to one of the coolest things that one of the weakest wizard subclasses gets is lame, by the way. It's like nerfing a monk's stunning strike, already the worst class, and now you're taking away their coolest thing?
I come down firmly on the 1d4+1 per missile. Magic missile isn't an AoE nor a single target. It's a multi-target spell. However, even if the DM allowed it the other way, it isn't worth it, especially if they allow you to add +INT to your evocation cantrips. And as a tier 3 wizard, you've almost always have so many other and frankly better options.
I wasn't kidding about the damage output, our barbarian did on average 24/hit and got 3 attacks almost every other turn (great weapon master and reckless). A damage out put of 25 for a spell slot isn't worth it. Cast hideous laughter, silent image, or something else to give that paladin adv and smite. Single target just aren't worth it, not unless you're desperate or you're only facing 1 enemy.
1. We agree that spell slots purely to do damage once to one target is not optimal and there are more optimal uses for slots and actions. Not the point I was making. 2. 1d4+1 per missile, yes, but rolled only once. That's confirmed to be the intent, and was even confirmed to work with empowered evocation specifically. You're free to play it another way, but speccing into big magic missiles is both RAW and RAI.
Also, just to be clear, since we agree that blasting, especially single target blasting, is pretty suboptimal, why does this trick need a house rule nerf? I'm running the build now (taking a break from always playing the absolute strongest builds to try something a bit more niche), and it's fun. It doesn't break anything that isn't already broken by having a competently built melee character present. It requires one pick a very off-meta spec, it's resource intensive, and it's not breaking anything.
The magic missile trick and being able to blast wantonly into your party are both really fun things that this subclass gets. Is it the strongest wizard? Not by a longshot, but it is enjoyable.
A DM that houserules a nerf to one of the coolest things that one of the weakest wizard subclasses gets is lame, by the way. It's like nerfing a monk's stunning strike, already the worst class, and now you're taking away their coolest thing?
I come down firmly on the 1d4+1 per missile. Magic missile isn't an AoE nor a single target. It's a multi-target spell. However, even if the DM allowed it the other way, it isn't worth it, especially if they allow you to add +INT to your evocation cantrips. And as a tier 3 wizard, you've almost always have so many other and frankly better options.
I wasn't kidding about the damage output, our barbarian did on average 24/hit and got 3 attacks almost every other turn (great weapon master and reckless). A damage out put of 25 for a spell slot isn't worth it. Cast hideous laughter, silent image, or something else to give that paladin adv and smite. Single target just aren't worth it, not unless you're desperate or you're only facing 1 enemy.
1. We agree that spell slots purely to do damage once to one target is not optimal and there are more optimal uses for slots and actions. Not the point I was making. 2. 1d4+1 per missile, yes, but rolled only once. That's confirmed to be the intent, and was even confirmed to work with empowered evocation specifically. You're free to play it another way, but speccing into big magic missiles is both RAW and RAI.
Also, just to be clear, since we agree that blasting, especially single target blasting, is pretty suboptimal, why does this trick need a house rule nerf? I'm running the build now (taking a break from always playing the absolute strongest builds to try something a bit more niche), and it's fun. It doesn't break anything that isn't already broken by having a competently built melee character present. It requires one pick a very off-meta spec, it's resource intensive, and it's not breaking anything.
It's neither RAW (magic missile is not an AoE) nor RAI (feel of older editions). Instead of rehashing it yet again, there is a whole thread on it. How many rolls do you make for Magic Missile?
It is very sub-optimal and I think part of it is the errata that said Empowered Evocation had to use a spell slot. Then them trying to offset that by pointing out how 'powerful' magic missile is.
Personally, I don't see an issue with it affecting evocation cantrips. There are classes (warlock) and sub-classes that add +STAT to a cantrip why not give that to evokers as well? If you exclude the magic missile argument and exclude cantrips, empowered evocation is barely noticeable.
It's neither RAW (magic missile is not an AoE) nor RAI (feel of older editions). Instead of rehashing it yet again, there is a whole thread on it. How many rolls do you make for Magic Missile?
What does it not being an AoE have to do with anything? RAI doesn't mean "feel of older editions."
"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast." Doesn't require the spell be an AoE. Magic missile has one roll (no debate required, there's a clear answer on this from the rules lead of the game), to which one can apply a bonus. So empowered evocation means when you roll magic missile, it's 1d4+1+int. That's the rule. You can house rule it away, because it's a weird rule, but it's still the rule. It's also not especially powerful. :\
It's neither RAW (magic missile is not an AoE) nor RAI (feel of older editions). Instead of rehashing it yet again, there is a whole thread on it. How many rolls do you make for Magic Missile?
What does it not being an AoE have to do with anything? RAI doesn't mean "feel of older editions."
"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast." Doesn't require the spell be an AoE. Magic missile has one roll (no debate required, there's a clear answer on this from the rules lead of the game), to which one can apply a bonus. So empowered evocation means when you roll magic missile, it's 1d4+1+int. That's the rule. You can house rule it away, because it's a weird rule, but it's still the rule. It's also not especially powerful. :\
Not especially powerful? What?
Let's put aside the fact that you're contradicting the RAW when you roll for only 1 dart when you have only 1 target (the rule you're referring to requires multiple targets) and examine the sheer power output of a fairly straightforward build: an Evocation Wizard who, like many wizards, takes 2 fighter levels for Action Surge, and unlike most wizards, takes 1 level of Hexblade, since it has so much massive synergy with Empowered Evocation. How big is your Big Gun? Turns out the scaling on Magic Missile with abilities like Empowered Invocation is incredible.
Specifically, I'm assuming this progression: Hexblade 1 -> Evoker 17 -> Fighter 2. Intelligence is 16 out the gate, 18 at character level 5, and 20 at character level 9.
So how big is our big gun? By character level (so Empowered Evocation happens at 11):
2: 3*(1d4+3) = 16.5 (Level 1 MM, Curse +2)
4: 4*(1d4+3) = 22 (Level 2 MM, Curse +2)
5: 4*(1d4+4) = 26 (Level 2 MM, Curse +3)
6: 5*(1d4+4) = 32.5 (Level 3 MM, Curse +3)
8: 6*(1d4+4) = 39 (Level 4 MM, Curse +3)
9: 6*(1d4+5) = 45 (Level 4 MM, Curse +4)
10:7*(1d4+5) = 52.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4)
11:7*(1d4+10) = 87.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
12:8*(1d4+10) =100 (Level 6 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
13:8*(1d4+11) =108 (Level 6 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
14:9*(1d4+11) =121.5 (Level 7 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
16:10*(1d4+11) =135 (Level 8 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
17:10*(1d4+12) =145 (Level 8 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
18:11*(1d4+12) =159.5 (Level 9 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
20: 304.5 from a level 9 + a level 8.
That's more than half the vitality of an ancient red dragon at the end, which is a reasonable amount of damage - if you have a simulacrum ready to go, you can simply one-shot an ancient red on your way to breakfast.
It's neither RAW (magic missile is not an AoE) nor RAI (feel of older editions). Instead of rehashing it yet again, there is a whole thread on it. How many rolls do you make for Magic Missile?
What does it not being an AoE have to do with anything? RAI doesn't mean "feel of older editions."
"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast." Doesn't require the spell be an AoE. Magic missile has one roll (no debate required, there's a clear answer on this from the rules lead of the game), to which one can apply a bonus. So empowered evocation means when you roll magic missile, it's 1d4+1+int. That's the rule. You can house rule it away, because it's a weird rule, but it's still the rule. It's also not especially powerful. :\
Not especially powerful? What?
Let's put aside the fact that you're contradicting the RAW when you roll for only 1 dart when you have only 1 target (the rule you're referring to requires multiple targets) and examine the sheer power output of a fairly straightforward build: an Evocation Wizard who, like many wizards, takes 2 fighter levels for Action Surge, and unlike most wizards, takes 1 level of Hexblade, since it has so much massive synergy with Empowered Evocation. How big is your Big Gun? Turns out the scaling on Magic Missile with abilities like Empowered Invocation is incredible.
Specifically, I'm assuming this progression: Hexblade 1 -> Evoker 17 -> Fighter 2. Intelligence is 16 out the gate, 18 at character level 5, and 20 at character level 9.
So how big is our big gun? By character level (so Empowered Evocation happens at 11):
2: 3*(1d4+3) = 16.5 (Level 1 MM, Curse +2)
4: 4*(1d4+3) = 22 (Level 2 MM, Curse +2)
5: 4*(1d4+4) = 26 (Level 2 MM, Curse +3)
6: 5*(1d4+4) = 32.5 (Level 3 MM, Curse +3)
8: 6*(1d4+4) = 39 (Level 4 MM, Curse +3)
9: 6*(1d4+5) = 45 (Level 4 MM, Curse +4)
10:7*(1d4+5) = 52.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4)
11:7*(1d4+10) = 87.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
12:8*(1d4+10) =100 (Level 6 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
13:8*(1d4+11) =108 (Level 6 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
14:9*(1d4+11) =121.5 (Level 7 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
16:10*(1d4+11) =135 (Level 8 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
17:10*(1d4+12) =145 (Level 8 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
18:11*(1d4+12) =159.5 (Level 9 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
20: 304.5 from a level 9 + a level 8.
That's more than half the vitality of an ancient red dragon at the end, which is a reasonable amount of damage - if you have a simulacrum ready to go, you can simply one-shot an ancient red on your way to breakfast.
Not especially powerful, my bottom.
Not powerful relative to its cost, required investment, and compared to similar options. You had just just throw in some major multiclassing assumptions (2 fighter, 1 hexblade) to make your math pop out those huge numbers. But, let's assume you do use that build and get to 20. At level 20, is that broken?
...no, it's not. If you're a level 20 wizard, you have a 9th level spell. Magic Missile, even doing the damage you show, is a really poor use of a 9th level spell. 9th level spells are things like wish and true polymorph. Spells that end multiple encounters. It's more reasonable to argue that it's a broken feature in the mid levels than at high levels, because it's competing with less. But even then, broken? Compared to what? A level 11 chronurgist makes a level 11 evoker look like a joke. A level 11 necromancer can put magic missile+hexblade damage to shame (also, note, the hexblade trick works on one target per short rest).
I'm not saying it's bad. It's good. But it's basically all the evoker wizard gets. Also, your reading of the spell being one roll only for multiple targets? That's just wrong. Google it, Crawford has spoken on this. It's an old topic and the people still saying otherwise are just ignoring the lead dev of this game.
Each dart has its own target, so even if all three darts Target a single creature, that 1 creature still counts as three targets, 1/dart.
And look at the massive wheel of multiclassed cheddar you had to roll up to get it that powerful. (Truly massive.) is Chester Cheetah right? Is it not easy being cheesy?
The magic missile rule is debatable. It is based on reading a single, online Sage Advice ruling that did NOT reference the INT bonus of Evocation. You will most likely find that you have to convince your DM to allow it. Do not count on it.
Most people consider Magic Missile to be a good spell already. Auto hit is amazing when it counts.
It's actually clarified that RAW it does work with empowered invocation. And frankly if I'm a DM your one level 10 ability sucks otherwise, so I wouldn't house rule it away.
It's neither RAW (magic missile is not an AoE) nor RAI (feel of older editions). Instead of rehashing it yet again, there is a whole thread on it. How many rolls do you make for Magic Missile?
What does it not being an AoE have to do with anything? RAI doesn't mean "feel of older editions."
"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast." Doesn't require the spell be an AoE. Magic missile has one roll (no debate required, there's a clear answer on this from the rules lead of the game), to which one can apply a bonus. So empowered evocation means when you roll magic missile, it's 1d4+1+int. That's the rule. You can house rule it away, because it's a weird rule, but it's still the rule. It's also not especially powerful. :\
Not especially powerful? What?
Let's put aside the fact that you're contradicting the RAW when you roll for only 1 dart when you have only 1 target (the rule you're referring to requires multiple targets) and examine the sheer power output of a fairly straightforward build: an Evocation Wizard who, like many wizards, takes 2 fighter levels for Action Surge, and unlike most wizards, takes 1 level of Hexblade, since it has so much massive synergy with Empowered Evocation. How big is your Big Gun? Turns out the scaling on Magic Missile with abilities like Empowered Invocation is incredible.
Specifically, I'm assuming this progression: Hexblade 1 -> Evoker 17 -> Fighter 2. Intelligence is 16 out the gate, 18 at character level 5, and 20 at character level 9.
So how big is our big gun? By character level (so Empowered Evocation happens at 11):
2: 3*(1d4+3) = 16.5 (Level 1 MM, Curse +2)
4: 4*(1d4+3) = 22 (Level 2 MM, Curse +2)
5: 4*(1d4+4) = 26 (Level 2 MM, Curse +3)
6: 5*(1d4+4) = 32.5 (Level 3 MM, Curse +3)
8: 6*(1d4+4) = 39 (Level 4 MM, Curse +3)
9: 6*(1d4+5) = 45 (Level 4 MM, Curse +4)
10:7*(1d4+5) = 52.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4)
11:7*(1d4+10) = 87.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
12:8*(1d4+10) =100 (Level 6 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
13:8*(1d4+11) =108 (Level 6 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
14:9*(1d4+11) =121.5 (Level 7 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
16:10*(1d4+11) =135 (Level 8 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
17:10*(1d4+12) =145 (Level 8 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
18:11*(1d4+12) =159.5 (Level 9 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
20: 304.5 from a level 9 + a level 8.
That's more than half the vitality of an ancient red dragon at the end, which is a reasonable amount of damage - if you have a simulacrum ready to go, you can simply one-shot an ancient red on your way to breakfast.
It's neither RAW (magic missile is not an AoE) nor RAI (feel of older editions). Instead of rehashing it yet again, there is a whole thread on it. How many rolls do you make for Magic Missile?
What does it not being an AoE have to do with anything? RAI doesn't mean "feel of older editions."
"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast." Doesn't require the spell be an AoE. Magic missile has one roll (no debate required, there's a clear answer on this from the rules lead of the game), to which one can apply a bonus. So empowered evocation means when you roll magic missile, it's 1d4+1+int. That's the rule. You can house rule it away, because it's a weird rule, but it's still the rule. It's also not especially powerful. :\
Not especially powerful? What?
Let's put aside the fact that you're contradicting the RAW when you roll for only 1 dart when you have only 1 target (the rule you're referring to requires multiple targets) and examine the sheer power output of a fairly straightforward build: an Evocation Wizard who, like many wizards, takes 2 fighter levels for Action Surge, and unlike most wizards, takes 1 level of Hexblade, since it has so much massive synergy with Empowered Evocation. How big is your Big Gun? Turns out the scaling on Magic Missile with abilities like Empowered Invocation is incredible.
Specifically, I'm assuming this progression: Hexblade 1 -> Evoker 17 -> Fighter 2. Intelligence is 16 out the gate, 18 at character level 5, and 20 at character level 9.
So how big is our big gun? By character level (so Empowered Evocation happens at 11):
2: 3*(1d4+3) = 16.5 (Level 1 MM, Curse +2)
4: 4*(1d4+3) = 22 (Level 2 MM, Curse +2)
5: 4*(1d4+4) = 26 (Level 2 MM, Curse +3)
6: 5*(1d4+4) = 32.5 (Level 3 MM, Curse +3)
8: 6*(1d4+4) = 39 (Level 4 MM, Curse +3)
9: 6*(1d4+5) = 45 (Level 4 MM, Curse +4)
10:7*(1d4+5) = 52.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4)
11:7*(1d4+10) = 87.5 (Level 5 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
12:8*(1d4+10) =100 (Level 6 MM, Curse +4, EE +5)
13:8*(1d4+11) =108 (Level 6 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
14:9*(1d4+11) =121.5 (Level 7 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
16:10*(1d4+11) =135 (Level 8 MM, Curse +5, EE +5)
17:10*(1d4+12) =145 (Level 8 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
18:11*(1d4+12) =159.5 (Level 9 MM, Curse +6, EE +5)
20: 304.5 from a level 9 + a level 8.
That's more than half the vitality of an ancient red dragon at the end, which is a reasonable amount of damage - if you have a simulacrum ready to go, you can simply one-shot an ancient red on your way to breakfast.
Not especially powerful, my bottom.
Unless that ancient red dragon has the shield spell or globe of invulnerability. .....in which case you just completely wasted your most powerful spell slots! Worse if you cast it on a terrasque it could be the wizard that takes all that damage.
And while that may be a corner case, so is your multiclass.
I feel it is necessary to point out that a meteor swarm can be cast from a mile away and does 151 points of damage on average at level 18
Finally a straight half-Orc battlemaster at 20th level with precision and trip attack maneuvers, Crusher and magic initiate can average 186 in a Nova turn against that same dragon.
The magic missile rule is debatable. It is based on reading a single, online Sage Advice ruling that did NOT reference the INT bonus of Evocation. You will most likely find that you have to convince your DM to allow it. Do not count on it.
Most people consider Magic Missile to be a good spell already. Auto hit is amazing when it counts.
It's actually clarified that RAW it does work with empowered invocation. And frankly if I'm a DM your one level 10 ability sucks otherwise, so I wouldn't house rule it away.
"The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone elseat Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they areadvice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECraw ford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes apreview of rulings that appear here."
Finally I feel it is necessary to point out that a meteor swarm can be cast from a mile away and does 151 points of damage on average at level 18.
Meteor Swarm does a lot less than 151 damage on average. Please don't introduce bad math:
One of the reasons Magic Missile is so good is that it's so hard to resist Force damage. Our Ancient Red Dragon example is literally immune to 50% of Meteor Swarm's damage out the gate, and that's typical. Fire and Poison are the most resisted types by a wide margin. Force is the fourth-least, behind magical B/S/P (the other half of Meteor Swarm).
Ignoring types - e.g. by swapping to an Ancient Green Dragon - Meteor Swarm still has the crippling problem of being saveable. Our Dragon will autopass, taking, on average, 69.5 damage.
Hitting automatically - no way to miss, no way to save - is a huge part of why MM is so brutal. And introducing abilities that add to the roll only makes MM better in comparison when you allow it against a single target. Every other spell in the game with a similar multiplicative effect does it across multiple targets.
The magic missile rule is debatable. It is based on reading a single, online Sage Advice ruling that did NOT reference the INT bonus of Evocation. You will most likely find that you have to convince your DM to allow it. Do not count on it.
Most people consider Magic Missile to be a good spell already. Auto hit is amazing when it counts.
It's actually clarified that RAW it does work with empowered invocation. And frankly if I'm a DM your one level 10 ability sucks otherwise, so I wouldn't house rule it away.
"The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone elseat Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they areadvice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECraw ford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes apreview of rulings that appear here."
I did not pull that off of twitter, it's literally published on the official sage advice page. Here's another one.
Yes, it originated from a tweet, but that then got posted directly to the sage advice page. You're probably still not going to accept it, but you are disagreeing with me and the game designer. <-- This is a true statement, correct?
Also notice in the Sage Advice link I provided, it is tagged "Official Answer"
Finally I feel it is necessary to point out that a meteor swarm can be cast from a mile away and does 151 points of damage on average at level 18.
Meteor Swarm does a lot less than 151 damage on average. Please don't introduce bad math:
You forgot to add the +11 for curse and EE 40d6+11 is 151 average .... or 81 if it is in fact a red dragon. You are the one who created that crazy build that comes online at 20th level, you at least need to add the damage for the features you thought it necessary to mention and by the way that 151 is not using action surge either.
While we are talking about math though 20d6 is 70 on average not 69.5 and the EE and curse boost gets rolled up on top of that making the average damage 75.5 with a save.
Further as I noted noted magic missile does not really hit automatically. It is stopped by shield or globe of invulnerability, both of which an ancient red dragon is likely to have. Heck a young Red Dragon can even have shield and counterspell, and you only need a 3rd level counterspell to stop a 9th level magic missile.
And the sage advise got pulled back and changed as well. Go read the other thread, they've been going back and forth on the +int and magic missile for 17+ pages, and that's just the latest thread on it.
Either way, magic missile arguement aside, empowered evocation is barely noticable when an evoker finally gets it at 10th level.
And the sage advise got pulled back and changed as well. Go read the other thread, they've been going back and forth on the +int and magic missile for 17+ pages, and that's just the latest thread on it.
Either way, magic missile arguement aside, empowered evocation is barely noticable when an evoker finally gets it at 10th level.
Pulled back how? It's right there on the Sage Advice page, tagged "official answer."
WoTC published another that said it was opinion. Then Crawford said, iin another tweet, that it was his opinion and wasn't official. Thenn in the latest eratta, at least that I'm aware of as I haven't found anything dated later. It was broadly stated as opinion again. From what I gather, they want leave it up to the individual DM. If you want at least a better history, hop over to the other thread and start there.
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This is good insight. I haven’t been lucky to ever get to high levels, so I tend to view things through a tier 1 & 2 lense.
The magic missile trick and being able to blast wantonly into your party are both really fun things that this subclass gets. Is it the strongest wizard? Not by a longshot, but it is enjoyable.
A DM that houserules a nerf to one of the coolest things that one of the weakest wizard subclasses gets is lame, by the way. It's like nerfing a monk's stunning strike, already the worst class, and now you're taking away their coolest thing?
Yes, I have to admit D&D devs granted Mass Healing and Heal spells to be included in the Avocado spells list...... muHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
thnxsssssssssssssssssssssss
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
I come down firmly on the 1d4+1 per missile. Magic missile isn't an AoE nor a single target. It's a multi-target spell. However, even if the DM allowed it the other way, it isn't worth it, especially if they allow you to add +INT to your evocation cantrips. And as a tier 3 wizard, you've almost always have so many other and frankly better options.
I wasn't kidding about the damage output, our barbarian did on average 24/hit and got 3 attacks almost every other turn (great weapon master and reckless). A damage out put of 25 for a spell slot isn't worth it. Cast hideous laughter, silent image, or something else to give that paladin adv and smite. Single target just aren't worth it, not unless you're desperate or you're only facing 1 enemy.
1. We agree that spell slots purely to do damage once to one target is not optimal and there are more optimal uses for slots and actions. Not the point I was making.
2. 1d4+1 per missile, yes, but rolled only once. That's confirmed to be the intent, and was even confirmed to work with empowered evocation specifically. You're free to play it another way, but speccing into big magic missiles is both RAW and RAI.
Also, just to be clear, since we agree that blasting, especially single target blasting, is pretty suboptimal, why does this trick need a house rule nerf? I'm running the build now (taking a break from always playing the absolute strongest builds to try something a bit more niche), and it's fun. It doesn't break anything that isn't already broken by having a competently built melee character present. It requires one pick a very off-meta spec, it's resource intensive, and it's not breaking anything.
It's neither RAW (magic missile is not an AoE) nor RAI (feel of older editions). Instead of rehashing it yet again, there is a whole thread on it. How many rolls do you make for Magic Missile?
It is very sub-optimal and I think part of it is the errata that said Empowered Evocation had to use a spell slot. Then them trying to offset that by pointing out how 'powerful' magic missile is.
Personally, I don't see an issue with it affecting evocation cantrips. There are classes (warlock) and sub-classes that add +STAT to a cantrip why not give that to evokers as well? If you exclude the magic missile argument and exclude cantrips, empowered evocation is barely noticeable.
What does it not being an AoE have to do with anything? RAI doesn't mean "feel of older editions."
"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast." Doesn't require the spell be an AoE. Magic missile has one roll (no debate required, there's a clear answer on this from the rules lead of the game), to which one can apply a bonus. So empowered evocation means when you roll magic missile, it's 1d4+1+int. That's the rule. You can house rule it away, because it's a weird rule, but it's still the rule. It's also not especially powerful. :\
Not especially powerful? What?
Let's put aside the fact that you're contradicting the RAW when you roll for only 1 dart when you have only 1 target (the rule you're referring to requires multiple targets) and examine the sheer power output of a fairly straightforward build: an Evocation Wizard who, like many wizards, takes 2 fighter levels for Action Surge, and unlike most wizards, takes 1 level of Hexblade, since it has so much massive synergy with Empowered Evocation. How big is your Big Gun? Turns out the scaling on Magic Missile with abilities like Empowered Invocation is incredible.
Specifically, I'm assuming this progression: Hexblade 1 -> Evoker 17 -> Fighter 2. Intelligence is 16 out the gate, 18 at character level 5, and 20 at character level 9.
So how big is our big gun? By character level (so Empowered Evocation happens at 11):
That's more than half the vitality of an ancient red dragon at the end, which is a reasonable amount of damage - if you have a simulacrum ready to go, you can simply one-shot an ancient red on your way to breakfast.
Not especially powerful, my bottom.
Not powerful relative to its cost, required investment, and compared to similar options. You had just just throw in some major multiclassing assumptions (2 fighter, 1 hexblade) to make your math pop out those huge numbers. But, let's assume you do use that build and get to 20. At level 20, is that broken?
...no, it's not. If you're a level 20 wizard, you have a 9th level spell. Magic Missile, even doing the damage you show, is a really poor use of a 9th level spell. 9th level spells are things like wish and true polymorph. Spells that end multiple encounters. It's more reasonable to argue that it's a broken feature in the mid levels than at high levels, because it's competing with less. But even then, broken? Compared to what? A level 11 chronurgist makes a level 11 evoker look like a joke. A level 11 necromancer can put magic missile+hexblade damage to shame (also, note, the hexblade trick works on one target per short rest).
I'm not saying it's bad. It's good. But it's basically all the evoker wizard gets. Also, your reading of the spell being one roll only for multiple targets? That's just wrong. Google it, Crawford has spoken on this. It's an old topic and the people still saying otherwise are just ignoring the lead dev of this game.
Each dart has its own target, so even if all three darts Target a single creature, that 1 creature still counts as three targets, 1/dart.
And look at the massive wheel of multiclassed cheddar you had to roll up to get it that powerful. (Truly massive.) is Chester Cheetah right? Is it not easy being cheesy?
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For those saying it’s not RAW.
AGAIN…
https://www.sageadvice.eu/magic-missile-3-bolts/
Reaction: Shield. 0 Damage
Unless that ancient red dragon has the shield spell or globe of invulnerability. .....in which case you just completely wasted your most powerful spell slots! Worse if you cast it on a terrasque it could be the wizard that takes all that damage.
And while that may be a corner case, so is your multiclass.
I feel it is necessary to point out that a meteor swarm can be cast from a mile away and does 151 points of damage on average at level 18
Finally a straight half-Orc battlemaster at 20th level with precision and trip attack maneuvers, Crusher and magic initiate can average 186 in a Nova turn against that same dragon.
And again, not official:
https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
"The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECraw
ford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes a preview of rulings that appear here."
Meteor Swarm does a lot less than 151 damage on average. Please don't introduce bad math:
Hitting automatically - no way to miss, no way to save - is a huge part of why MM is so brutal. And introducing abilities that add to the roll only makes MM better in comparison when you allow it against a single target. Every other spell in the game with a similar multiplicative effect does it across multiple targets.
I did not pull that off of twitter, it's literally published on the official sage advice page. Here's another one.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/?s=magic missile
Yes, it originated from a tweet, but that then got posted directly to the sage advice page. You're probably still not going to accept it, but you are disagreeing with me and the game designer. <-- This is a true statement, correct?
Also notice in the Sage Advice link I provided, it is tagged "Official Answer"
You forgot to add the +11 for curse and EE 40d6+11 is 151 average .... or 81 if it is in fact a red dragon. You are the one who created that crazy build that comes online at 20th level, you at least need to add the damage for the features you thought it necessary to mention and by the way that 151 is not using action surge either.
While we are talking about math though 20d6 is 70 on average not 69.5 and the EE and curse boost gets rolled up on top of that making the average damage 75.5 with a save.
Further as I noted noted magic missile does not really hit automatically. It is stopped by shield or globe of invulnerability, both of which an ancient red dragon is likely to have. Heck a young Red Dragon can even have shield and counterspell, and you only need a 3rd level counterspell to stop a 9th level magic missile.
And the sage advise got pulled back and changed as well. Go read the other thread, they've been going back and forth on the +int and magic missile for 17+ pages, and that's just the latest thread on it.
Either way, magic missile arguement aside, empowered evocation is barely noticable when an evoker finally gets it at 10th level.
Pulled back how? It's right there on the Sage Advice page, tagged "official answer."
WoTC published another that said it was opinion. Then Crawford said, iin another tweet, that it was his opinion and wasn't official. Thenn in the latest eratta, at least that I'm aware of as I haven't found anything dated later. It was broadly stated as opinion again. From what I gather, they want leave it up to the individual DM. If you want at least a better history, hop over to the other thread and start there.