You can't tell which one is actually more powerful if they have magic items. The only thing they can have is starting equipment. You want to make the most powerful character possible without using any Epic Boons or Magic Items from the DMG. Because if you use Epic Boons, the Wizard now has 2 9th level spell slots. Good luck winning that one, Warlock.
Honestly, and I am asking as I don’t see how this keeps getting argued.
but the “darkness” scenario.
so... the wizard, is just going to be chilling, in darkness. Not seeing anything. While the warlock. Customized to see in darkness, doesn’t even have to set up the darkness himself. And this is considered a “fair” setting?
to Gabe’s point: “yes”. If we really bend over backwards and do a lot of favorable things for warlock and give the wizard handicaps the warlock can win.
but that’s not what the question was designed to ask. It was designed for a “full power vs full power. Straight up scenario. Who wins?”
I agree, 100%. Giving the Warlock darkvision in a dark environment and restricting the Wizard's race and other options to where he fails in darkness is not fair. You cannot favor one class over the other, which Gabrielrockman is trying to do for the Warlock. The only fair way to do a battle is to have the same circumstances every battle with the players making characters based on the arena.
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(I know I'm ignored by Gabrielrockman, but that's not the topic of this. This is convincing everyone else on the thread of what is fair in the combat.)
Got it. We're playing dungeons and dragons in a world with no darkness and no magic items. To have darkness or magic items available to level 20 characters is bending over backwards. Heck, even just starting off the two characters both behind cover is bending over backwards.
This isn't a game of dungeons and dragons. This is an experiment to see which class is more combat effective, it's not a test to see who has the best magic item combos, as those aren't a part of the overall effectiveness of the class. If this was a battle between the Artificer and Wizard, the artificer would have access to all of its magic items from its infusions, as the class is balanced around that mechanic. Warlocks aren't. Magic items change the balance of the game.
The fact is that you specifically want to make the battlefield darkness to favor the Warlock. That's not fair, that's favoring the Warlock over the Wizard.
I've never said that I thought Warlock was better or more powerful. I've always said that I thought Abjuration Wizard is the best choice. But I'm shocked by the degree that people want to bend over backwards to cater to the Wizard's wishes. The Wizard is the more powerful option, he doesn't need you stacking the deck in his favor. Even in conditions set to favor the Warlock, the Wizard still probably wins.
We're not catering to the Wizard's wishes, we're making sure the battle isn't inherently designed to benefit the Warlock, which you're trying to do. The Wizard is the most powerful option, but that doesn't mean you have to favor the warlock in the battle.
It's funny, the question is apparently "full power vs full power, straight up scenario", but no magic items permitted. The Warlock can't give his Sprite a Ring of Spell Storing with Greater Restoration cast into it. Because that's too powerful. We want full power, except when we don't want full power.
Magic items aren't the power of the Warlock or Wizard class. The game and classes aren't balanced around the Warlock and Wizard having magic items. A ring of spell storing is not balanced to the fight. This isn't a matter of "what combinations are the best?" it's more of a matter of "which class is better on its own?"
I'll rephrase the question: Wizard 20 vs Warlock 20, where the Wizard gets to set the rules, who wins? We don't need a huge thread to answer this question. Wizard wins.
The whole point of a fair combat and experiment is not letting either player set the rules! That's all I've been saying all along. You don't design the arena around benefitting one class over the other, you make it fair by not caring about either character's choices.
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If they have magic items it comes down to whoever has the better gimmick.
Exactly. The classes aren't balanced around magic items, so they shouldn't be allowed. If there was an Artificer in the battle, they'd be allowed their items, but a Warlock doesn't automatically have magic items.
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Even if they have magic items, I still think it probably comes down to the fact that the Warlock's biggest strengths are a large selection of at will casting of low level spells, a very strong and customizable attack cantrip, and getting all of their spell slots on a short rest. Therefore, they're designed for multiple combats in one day. As long as you set the fight on the Wizard's terms, i.e. a once per day combat, the Wizard has a huge advantage. So even with Magic Items, I still think it comes down to the fact that you're setting up the fight on the Wizard's terms, so the Wizard is going to win.
Even if they have magic items, I still think it probably comes down to the fact that the Warlock's biggest strengths are a large selection of at will casting of low level spells, a very strong and customizable attack cantrip, and getting all of their spell slots on a short rest. Therefore, they're designed for multiple combats in one day.
That is a major strength of the Warlock, but unfortunately, there's just not enough time to do so in this combat. That's one of their biggest strengths, but overall, it's not effective in combat or designed ot be used in combat.
As long as you set the fight on the Wizard's terms, i.e. a once per day combat, the Wizard has a huge advantage. So even with Magic Items, I still think it comes down to the fact that you're setting up the fight on the Wizard's terms, so the Wizard is going to win.
It is not on the wizard's terms to fight one time a day, this is the terms of a battle. You cannot have a battle last more than one combat, the arena would have nowhere to hide long enough to rest. This isn't meant to be fighting on the Wizard or Warlock's terms, it's the terms of a battlefield in order to have a fair fight. If you literally give them hours to regain their abilities, that's not fair or relevant to a PvP combat.
[REDACTED]
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It isn't fair to starve the wizard of a long rest. It isn't fair to blind the wizard with darkness and restrict it to darkvision-lacking races. It's not fair to take away the Wizard's spell slots or hit points before the fight. It's not fair to give buffs to the characters that they normally wouldn't have after any long rest.
Wish has many drawbacks. Ex. "I wish that the warlock was dead." The warlock was dead, but now it's an undead with a bunch of resistances and immunities.
Wish has many drawbacks. Ex. "I wish that the warlock was dead." The warlock was dead, but now it's an undead with a bunch of resistances and immunities.
wish:
”I wish the warlock was feeble minded”
throwing this into the ring now.
i still see no scenario where the warlock wins vs a wizard. AT LEVEL 20. (Or any 9th level spells level really).
You can't tell which one is actually more powerful if they have magic items. The only thing they can have is starting equipment. You want to make the most powerful character possible without using any Epic Boons or Magic Items from the DMG. Because if you use Epic Boons, the Wizard now has 2 9th level spell slots. Good luck winning that one, Warlock.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
I agree, 100%. Giving the Warlock darkvision in a dark environment and restricting the Wizard's race and other options to where he fails in darkness is not fair. You cannot favor one class over the other, which Gabrielrockman is trying to do for the Warlock. The only fair way to do a battle is to have the same circumstances every battle with the players making characters based on the arena.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
This isn't a game of dungeons and dragons. This is an experiment to see which class is more combat effective, it's not a test to see who has the best magic item combos, as those aren't a part of the overall effectiveness of the class. If this was a battle between the Artificer and Wizard, the artificer would have access to all of its magic items from its infusions, as the class is balanced around that mechanic. Warlocks aren't. Magic items change the balance of the game.
The fact is that you specifically want to make the battlefield darkness to favor the Warlock. That's not fair, that's favoring the Warlock over the Wizard.
We're not catering to the Wizard's wishes, we're making sure the battle isn't inherently designed to benefit the Warlock, which you're trying to do. The Wizard is the most powerful option, but that doesn't mean you have to favor the warlock in the battle.
Magic items aren't the power of the Warlock or Wizard class. The game and classes aren't balanced around the Warlock and Wizard having magic items. A ring of spell storing is not balanced to the fight. This isn't a matter of "what combinations are the best?" it's more of a matter of "which class is better on its own?"
The whole point of a fair combat and experiment is not letting either player set the rules! That's all I've been saying all along. You don't design the arena around benefitting one class over the other, you make it fair by not caring about either character's choices.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If they have magic items it comes down to whoever has the better gimmick.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Exactly. The classes aren't balanced around magic items, so they shouldn't be allowed. If there was an Artificer in the battle, they'd be allowed their items, but a Warlock doesn't automatically have magic items.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Even if they have magic items, I still think it probably comes down to the fact that the Warlock's biggest strengths are a large selection of at will casting of low level spells, a very strong and customizable attack cantrip, and getting all of their spell slots on a short rest. Therefore, they're designed for multiple combats in one day. As long as you set the fight on the Wizard's terms, i.e. a once per day combat, the Wizard has a huge advantage. So even with Magic Items, I still think it comes down to the fact that you're setting up the fight on the Wizard's terms, so the Wizard is going to win.
That is a major strength of the Warlock, but unfortunately, there's just not enough time to do so in this combat. That's one of their biggest strengths, but overall, it's not effective in combat or designed ot be used in combat.
It is not on the wizard's terms to fight one time a day, this is the terms of a battle. You cannot have a battle last more than one combat, the arena would have nowhere to hide long enough to rest. This isn't meant to be fighting on the Wizard or Warlock's terms, it's the terms of a battlefield in order to have a fair fight. If you literally give them hours to regain their abilities, that's not fair or relevant to a PvP combat.
[REDACTED]
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It isn't fair to starve the wizard of a long rest. It isn't fair to blind the wizard with darkness and restrict it to darkvision-lacking races. It's not fair to take away the Wizard's spell slots or hit points before the fight. It's not fair to give buffs to the characters that they normally wouldn't have after any long rest.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
one word..............wish
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
or a divination/ chronurgist wizard that just casts feeblemind. this is the end. goodbye.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Wish has many drawbacks. Ex. "I wish that the warlock was dead." The warlock was dead, but now it's an undead with a bunch of resistances and immunities.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
wish:
”I wish the warlock was feeble minded”
throwing this into the ring now.
i still see no scenario where the warlock wins vs a wizard. AT LEVEL 20. (Or any 9th level spells level really).
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Yeah. They start 60 feet apart? Meteor Swarm time!
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
Disintegrate. It doesn't really matter.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Meteor Swarm average damage is 140. That would reduce the Warlock to very low HP if it didn't just knock the Warlock unconscious.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
Disintegrate can be Counterspelled by a Warlock
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
can't counterspell be counterspelled though?
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Yes, but meteor swarm is more powerful than disintegrate.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
Meteor swarm does 140 average, disintegrate does 75.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses