I spent an hour writing out a super long post about how crappy it is that D&D Beyond wants to charge $280 + subscription for the full use of something we all already own. It also had a whole stint of how crappy it was to force certain sites that we all use for character creations that are 100x better visually and better coded than what's on here in the last week or so. I figured, after reading it all, that I would most likely get banned, and the cruel WotC tactical force would probably kill me in my sleep, so I deleted it all and decided to write this.
I cannot support this site. I cannot support this app. I cannot support a company choosing to bleed people out of something they already legally own, especially at basically the same price the original physical copy cost.
I cannot support a company that is shutting down free sites that used their own code to make character sheet creations quick, clean, and easy for players.
I cannot support a company that is shutting down free sites that are giving helpful references out to make finding information faster than using our player handbooks.
I understand you don't want other companies making money from your materials, but shutting down free sites that are basically number generators just so you can launch a project that makes players who have already invested hundreds of dollars into this game so they can re-buy those exact items again, I just cannot support.
You guys are basically the Martin Shkreli's of the gaming world.
There's my opinion on the whole matter. Take it how you will. Tried writing this the best way I could that shouldn't be a violation of the forums rules.
I'm sorry you feel like blaming Curse for all of the injustices of the world, but you're barking up the wrong tree. What WotC decides to do with their products and copyright freedoms is their choice, and Curse plays no part in those decisions. Try writing a strongly worded letter to WotC. ;)
You can tell the launch isn't going as planned when the moderators have abandoned all pretense of civility.
Seriously? Subsistcyber's post was quite civil. The OP is incorrect on so many of the terms. There are some serious and legitimate issues with DDB, however, none of the points above are.
WotC owns the copyright, not Curse. I'm guessing part of the OP post was due to the recent announcement from OrcPub. Yeah... that was a long time coming. They have been violating WotC's terms for a long time. You want to create a character creation tool that doesn't violate WotC's licensing terms for the OGL? Then you need to do what dicecloud.com did and not encode the rules of character creation and the non-SRD content in your tool.
There's this huge misconception on this site that Curse <==> WotC. They are completely different companies. Curse licenses the WotC content like Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 do. Curse might have a closer operating relationship, but they are still two very distinct entities.
You can tell the launch isn't going as planned when the moderators have abandoned all pretense of civility.
Also of note, have you seen how may threads/posts have been shitting all over DDB/Curse for events that are completely out of their control? It is ludicrously high, seems he answered it succinctly without any name calling or anything like that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
...basically the same price the original physical copy cost.[/quote]
This, like many things I'll be pointing out individually for the sake of anyone reading that hasn't already gotten their own information and might be mislead by the confidence with which you have stated things, is not a fact.
The fact is that the "original physical copy" price is around $50 for books that are around $30 to get digitally here. You have twisted the fact that many people found their way to buying the physical book with a discount so that you can be upset that D&D Beyond provides a similar discount.
I cannot support a company that is shutting down free sites that used their own code to make character sheet creations quick, clean, and easy for players.
Sites are not being shut down for being competition. Sites are being shut down for willful violation of laws. If those sites weren't in the wrong, there would be no means available for WotC (which, as already pointed out, isn't even the company making D&D Beyond) to shut them down.
I cannot support a company that is shutting down free sites that are giving helpful references out to make finding information faster than using our player handbooks.
Sites are not being shut down out of jealousy at how well they work. Sites are being shut down for willful violation of laws. Even if you aren't profiting from it, you still can't legally give away someone else's works without permission. Again, if those sites weren't in the wrong, WotC would be incapable of getting them shut down.
So, in the end, what you are really saying is that you "cannot support" a company that is doing exactly what these free sites you mention were doing, but has chosen to do so within the laws so they don't get shut down, and is asking for very reasonable prices (defined as very reasonable by being the lowest current legal prices for the game products, so they either must be considered reasonable, or all prices of same or higher quantity be deemed unreasonable, which just wouldn't make any sense considering the number of folks paying them without hesitation) to account for the fact that it costs money to buy permission to distribute someone else's works, and to keep the hardware and team needed to make the site work.
I'm curious if the OP is also posting their thoughts on the forums of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, as they are also 3rd party retailers of digital WOTC content.
Illegal operations of other sites aside, I'm not following the train of thought of how buying a license from Vendor A yields expected freebies from Vendor B. If this could be further explained, I'd be interested in improving my understanding.
I'm curious if the OP is also posting their thoughts on the forums of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, as they are also 3rd party retailers of digital WOTC content.
Illegal operations of other sites aside, I'm not following the train of thought of how buying a license from Vendor A yields expected freebies from Vendor B. If this could be further explained, I'd be interested in improving my understanding.
The train of thought is your branding and seemingly close relationship to WotC is genuinely confusing people into thinking this is an actual WotC product and not run by a third party company. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm curious if the OP is also posting their thoughts on the forums of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, as they are also 3rd party retailers of digital WOTC content.
Illegal operations of other sites aside, I'm not following the train of thought of how buying a license from Vendor A yields expected freebies from Vendor B. If this could be further explained, I'd be interested in improving my understanding.
The train of thought is your branding and seemingly close relationship to WotC is genuinely confusing people into thinking this is an actual WotC product and not run by a third party company. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You can only lead people to the drinking well...
Think of it as a compliment; you've done such a good job of advertising that they think you're WotC, because why else would WotC be so fond of advertising you?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Well, lets also add the fact that most people don't understand that you aren't buying the BOOK, but the license to use the WoTC content, in paper form. If you want to use it digitally it requires a different license.
I'm curious if the OP is also posting their thoughts on the forums of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, as they are also 3rd party retailers of digital WOTC content.
Illegal operations of other sites aside, I'm not following the train of thought of how buying a license from Vendor A yields expected freebies from Vendor B. If this could be further explained, I'd be interested in improving my understanding.
The train of thought is your branding and seemingly close relationship to WotC is genuinely confusing people into thinking this is an actual WotC product and not run by a third party company. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You can only lead people to the drinking well...
Which is a little surprising. The guy joined on 3/20 and has posted 18 times. So, he has been around for a while and has at least been a little involved in the forums. You would think that he would realize that this site was not created by WoTC by now. I mean, I only joined recently and followed the news only remotely, and even I know that.
Also, as a web developer, I know that it takes a lot of money to put together a site like this and to convert the content into a form usable by the site. Even if WoTC was providing the content to them for free to resale, they would be completely within their rights to charge a reasonable price for the content... which they are.
At this point, I am purchasing some content 3 or 4 times... physical (I still prefer physical copies), PDF when available, Fantasy Grounds and now D&D Beyond.
After seeing the prices... I won't be supporting it either. There needs to be a total rethinking of the pricing, and the trend of trying to get D&D players and DMs to constantly rebuy the same material over and over instead of something more logical like giving people access codes in their physical books that unlock content in Beyond is not going to win a lot of players over. Beyond doesn't even have a digital tabletop... if it did, I might see things very differently, particularly if it were 3D with models and stuff. But what is actually being offered is much more basic.
D&D is a very community-centric game, and as such I think it makes much more sense to crowdsource content at projects like Roll20/d20Pro/Fantasy Grounds where after one small up-front cost you get access to all the hard work of the community who compile and maintain all the necessary assets for generating characters and playing online.
Imagine paying the absurd bundle and subscription cost only for Beyond to shut its doors in another year or 18 months. We've seen this happen before with other WotC online tools... just not happening at these prices.
There needs to be a total rethinking of the pricing...
I agree. People need to rethink the confused idea they've gotten in their heads that there is a possible world in which they get everything on offer, but for only the (roughly) $50 bucks MSRP or whatever they can find discounted somewhere for some reason one-time price. And until that rethinking happens, there are going to continue to be a small portion of people that imagine themselves as potential customers but are in fact lacking in potential for customership - because they don't want to pay for the digital tools, doesn't matter who makes them, and definitely wouldn't be happy to see the physical book prices rise significantly so that the hypothetical access code placed within is not WotC literally throwing their profits into the garbage bin.
Of course, the reality is that there are hundreds of thousands of people out there playing D&D, and most of them don't have any issue with the prices being asked, even though those angry few that do imagine their opinion much more widely shared than evidence supports it being.
trying to get D&D players and DMs to constantly rebuy the same material over and over
Maybe they were trying to get new players to buy the content for the first time, but the platform is sogood that those who've purchased physical copies feel compelled to buy it again digitally?
A monkey wrench for your argument - WOTC isn't the developer of D&D Beyond, so all the pointers to what they have done, or should do, are moot. Curse is behind D&D Beyond, and must monetize licensed content to recoup development/operating costs. Business, my dear Watson!
trying to get D&D players and DMs to constantly rebuy the same material over and over
Maybe they were trying to get new players to buy the content for the first time, but the platform is sogood that those who've purchased physical copies feel compelled to buy it again digitally?
A monkey wrench for your argument - WOTC isn't the developer of D&D Beyond, so all the pointers to what they have done, or should do, are moot. Curse is behind D&D Beyond, and must monetize licensed content to recoup development/operating costs. Business, my dear Watson!
Good show, old chap. Jolly good show.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
trying to get D&D players and DMs to constantly rebuy the same material over and over
Maybe they were trying to get new players to buy the content for the first time, but the platform is sogood that those who've purchased physical copies feel compelled to buy it again digitally?
A monkey wrench for your argument - WOTC isn't the developer of D&D Beyond, so all the pointers to what they have done, or should do, are moot. Curse is behind D&D Beyond, and must monetize licensed content to recoup development/operating costs. Business, my dear Watson!
Good show, old chap. Jolly good show.
So, all of the people involved in the development of this site should just volunteer their time so that you can get the content for free? That would be a "jolly good show!"
That isn't even mentioning the money spent running or renting the servers and forming a business model around providing this content to you in this quite useful form. Please run along and look for hand outs elsewhere.
trying to get D&D players and DMs to constantly rebuy the same material over and over
Maybe they were trying to get new players to buy the content for the first time, but the platform is sogood that those who've purchased physical copies feel compelled to buy it again digitally?
A monkey wrench for your argument - WOTC isn't the developer of D&D Beyond, so all the pointers to what they have done, or should do, are moot. Curse is behind D&D Beyond, and must monetize licensed content to recoup development/operating costs. Business, my dear Watson!
Good show, old chap. Jolly good show.
So, all of the people involved in the development of this site should just volunteer their time so that you can get the content for free? That would be a "jolly good show!"
That isn't even mentioning the money spent running or renting the servers and forming a business model around providing this content to you in this quite useful form. Please run along and look for hand outs elsewhere.
Eh? What?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I'm curious if the OP is also posting their thoughts on the forums of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, as they are also 3rd party retailers of digital WOTC content.
Illegal operations of other sites aside, I'm not following the train of thought of how buying a license from Vendor A yields expected freebies from Vendor B. If this could be further explained, I'd be interested in improving my understanding.
I'm an avid FG user along with DDB. It isn't quite as often that you get posts from people upset over having to "rebuy" content but I do see them on the forums every few days on FG. Same as here the most common misconception is that buying sub/license X to use the program/host players/create content gives you automatic access to content Y.
I like that you can make choices. You can choose to buy the items from this site or not. You can also choose to post here or not. You can ALSO choose to go play D&D with a group or you can go play with yourself.
I just logged in to upgrade my account to make better use of the character generator. I gave it some time since beta and haven't checked in assuming it would just be a monthly sub like 4th ed. Then I saw what a rip off it is and it doesn't even give you access to the core rule books I've already payed for. Charging for feats, races, classes, core rule books, etc. to be available in the character generator as individual packages is absolutely unacceptable. I own the books, I don't mind paying for online tools but this is excessive.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I spent an hour writing out a super long post about how crappy it is that D&D Beyond wants to charge $280 + subscription for the full use of something we all already own. It also had a whole stint of how crappy it was to force certain sites that we all use for character creations that are 100x better visually and better coded than what's on here in the last week or so. I figured, after reading it all, that I would most likely get banned, and the cruel WotC tactical force would probably kill me in my sleep, so I deleted it all and decided to write this.
I cannot support this site. I cannot support this app. I cannot support a company choosing to bleed people out of something they already legally own, especially at basically the same price the original physical copy cost.
I cannot support a company that is shutting down free sites that used their own code to make character sheet creations quick, clean, and easy for players.
I cannot support a company that is shutting down free sites that are giving helpful references out to make finding information faster than using our player handbooks.
I understand you don't want other companies making money from your materials, but shutting down free sites that are basically number generators just so you can launch a project that makes players who have already invested hundreds of dollars into this game so they can re-buy those exact items again, I just cannot support.
You guys are basically the Martin Shkreli's of the gaming world.
There's my opinion on the whole matter. Take it how you will. Tried writing this the best way I could that shouldn't be a violation of the forums rules.
I'm sorry you feel like blaming Curse for all of the injustices of the world, but you're barking up the wrong tree. What WotC decides to do with their products and copyright freedoms is their choice, and Curse plays no part in those decisions. Try writing a strongly worded letter to WotC. ;)
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Blep
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
This, like many things I'll be pointing out individually for the sake of anyone reading that hasn't already gotten their own information and might be mislead by the confidence with which you have stated things, is not a fact.
The fact is that the "original physical copy" price is around $50 for books that are around $30 to get digitally here. You have twisted the fact that many people found their way to buying the physical book with a discount so that you can be upset that D&D Beyond provides a similar discount.
Sites are not being shut down for being competition. Sites are being shut down for willful violation of laws. If those sites weren't in the wrong, there would be no means available for WotC (which, as already pointed out, isn't even the company making D&D Beyond) to shut them down.
Sites are not being shut down out of jealousy at how well they work. Sites are being shut down for willful violation of laws. Even if you aren't profiting from it, you still can't legally give away someone else's works without permission. Again, if those sites weren't in the wrong, WotC would be incapable of getting them shut down.So, in the end, what you are really saying is that you "cannot support" a company that is doing exactly what these free sites you mention were doing, but has chosen to do so within the laws so they don't get shut down, and is asking for very reasonable prices (defined as very reasonable by being the lowest current legal prices for the game products, so they either must be considered reasonable, or all prices of same or higher quantity be deemed unreasonable, which just wouldn't make any sense considering the number of folks paying them without hesitation) to account for the fact that it costs money to buy permission to distribute someone else's works, and to keep the hardware and team needed to make the site work.
I'm curious if the OP is also posting their thoughts on the forums of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, as they are also 3rd party retailers of digital WOTC content.
Illegal operations of other sites aside, I'm not following the train of thought of how buying a license from Vendor A yields expected freebies from Vendor B. If this could be further explained, I'd be interested in improving my understanding.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Well, lets also add the fact that most people don't understand that you aren't buying the BOOK, but the license to use the WoTC content, in paper form. If you want to use it digitally it requires a different license.
R.K. Billiau - Author of PrimeVerse
After seeing the prices... I won't be supporting it either. There needs to be a total rethinking of the pricing, and the trend of trying to get D&D players and DMs to constantly rebuy the same material over and over instead of something more logical like giving people access codes in their physical books that unlock content in Beyond is not going to win a lot of players over. Beyond doesn't even have a digital tabletop... if it did, I might see things very differently, particularly if it were 3D with models and stuff. But what is actually being offered is much more basic.
D&D is a very community-centric game, and as such I think it makes much more sense to crowdsource content at projects like Roll20/d20Pro/Fantasy Grounds where after one small up-front cost you get access to all the hard work of the community who compile and maintain all the necessary assets for generating characters and playing online.
Imagine paying the absurd bundle and subscription cost only for Beyond to shut its doors in another year or 18 months. We've seen this happen before with other WotC online tools... just not happening at these prices.
I agree. People need to rethink the confused idea they've gotten in their heads that there is a possible world in which they get everything on offer, but for only the (roughly) $50 bucks MSRP or whatever they can find discounted somewhere for some reason one-time price. And until that rethinking happens, there are going to continue to be a small portion of people that imagine themselves as potential customers but are in fact lacking in potential for customership - because they don't want to pay for the digital tools, doesn't matter who makes them, and definitely wouldn't be happy to see the physical book prices rise significantly so that the hypothetical access code placed within is not WotC literally throwing their profits into the garbage bin.
Of course, the reality is that there are hundreds of thousands of people out there playing D&D, and most of them don't have any issue with the prices being asked, even though those angry few that do imagine their opinion much more widely shared than evidence supports it being.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I like that you can make choices.
You can choose to buy the items from this site or not.
You can also choose to post here or not.
You can ALSO choose to go play D&D with a group or you can go play with yourself.
I just logged in to upgrade my account to make better use of the character generator. I gave it some time since beta and haven't checked in assuming it would just be a monthly sub like 4th ed. Then I saw what a rip off it is and it doesn't even give you access to the core rule books I've already payed for. Charging for feats, races, classes, core rule books, etc. to be available in the character generator as individual packages is absolutely unacceptable. I own the books, I don't mind paying for online tools but this is excessive.