I am not going to say that new PHB should automatically come with a free copy for online access. But here is the complaint:
Hardcover books have a very high per unit cost before profit. So of the $30 they cost at Amazon, ~$20 of that isn''t going to Wizards or Amazon.
Data access has a much lower cost before profit. So of the $30 it costs at DnD Beyond, ~$5 of it isn't going to Wizards or Curse.
Add in the cost that to access your content without advertising costs another $30 a year.
Some of the frustration is being aimed at Curse as they are the first official digital means of access to content, when a PDF being included with the hardcovers would have cost less than a dollar and granted immense value for the end customer. This is 100% not Curse's decision or fault, but they are catching it because they are who Wizards are pointing customers to when customers ask "How can I access this content digitally?".
It's about maintaining the brand value, not about costs. And Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds both had official content before Curse (at higher prices)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
They had the content yes, they didn't have video streams with Wizards staff. It feels like they are much more "all in" on DnDBeyond. Which is likely because it is exclusively for DnD, where the other platforms were platforms that just included DnD.
I actually had some info about brand value in my post before I shortened it to be the most important bits of info. I did preface my statement by saying I didn't think it should automatically come with it. But I do think people being upset no simple PDF option was never available is a valid complaint (even though its not relevant to Curse).
It has, but if people want to discuss it again, that's fine and entirely up to them.
Really? Because I find it incredibly annoying and bordering on spam. This kind of thing can be in a FAQ and anyone who doesn't read it can have their thread deleted and be pointed to the FAQ as a basic requirement before posting. That's how it's done on other boards.
It has, but if people want to discuss it again, that's fine and entirely up to them.
Really? Because I find it incredibly annoying and bordering on spam. This kind of thing can be in a FAQ and anyone who doesn't read it can have their thread deleted and be pointed to the FAQ as a basic requirement before posting. That's how it's done on other boards.
Other boards like? (genuine question)
Cancelling posts or censoring specific thread topics is never a good practice on an official forum of a commercial venture, the backlash of censoring "critique" content would be enormous and completely out of line in respect to what Curse has been doing so far with the communication.
I want to thank Stormknight for moving the thread over here, and would also like to apologise in having "fed the flame" in a post where it did not belong (I just get a bit carried away with these topics).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Sorry for necroing this post, but I want to weigh in (mostly as a tip for the developers), and this post seemed the way to do it.
I understand dnd beyond needs to make money to provide this service, and that there are licensing costs. However, besides the fact that it already feels like paying for the same thing twice (hardcover book and then the digital content), this service makes it worse by actually having me pay another time in the form of subscription. I would be happy to pay for the digital content again (although I do really think it is priced WAY too high) if it meant I could use the content within the services dnd beyond offers unrestricted, and preferably also share it with my players. Or I would be happy to pay a subscription (of 10-15 dollars per month even) to get unrestricted access to the services and all content for the duration of the subscription (preferable also sharing it with my players of course, but that's no deal breaker). But what you expect me to do and which I absolutely refuse to do, is buy all the content again, which would now cost me almost 350 dollars I think. And then also be forced to pay another 5 dollars a month to actually use the content. That does not only feel like double dipping, but basically triple dipping if you already have all the books (digitally).
It seems to me that a service like this want as many paying customers as they can get, and, in my opinion, due to this pricing strategy you will lose an overwhelming amount of your possible customers to all the free alternatives out there, which granted may be illegal, I honestly don't know. The thing I do know is that, even though I, and likely a lot of people with me, want to support the official content, I find these pricing and business strategies offensive, and will therefore not support dnd beyond.
You have every right to decide that DDB does not provide sufficient value to you for what it costs, and nothing I say below is meant to deny that.
I do want to address some of your points, because it appears to me that you may have misunderstood how DDB works.
A subscription to DDB is *not* required to use the contents. If you want to share content with other players, a Master Tier subscription is required, and this may be what you meant, but I couldn't tell for sure from what you wrote above. If I opted for the Master Tier, I would likely only do so if the group(s) I planned on sharing content with were willing to help with the cost of the subscription and/or were willing to take on the cost of buying some of the content we wanted/needed. Keep in mind that only one person in a "campaign" needs to have the Master Tier subscription in order for everyone in the campaign to share the content they've purchased. The financial burden for the content does not need to rest solely on one person.
Similarly, it does not necessarily need to cost you $350 for content. The final cost for content depends on what content a user wants/needs on DDB (which depends on how one wants to use it) and on how much work a user is willing to put in to homebrew things to avoid paying for content. In terms of character options, everything in the official published books except for subclasses can be privately homebrewed; homebrew subclasses are coming. Spells and monsters can likewise be homebrewed. Or things can be purchased piecemeal, with those costs going towards the cost of the "book" from which it came. This thread contains some real life examples of what people have purchased and why, running the gamut from nothing to the legendary bundle.
Quite frankly, I've been amazed at how many people seem to have bought the Legendary Bundle (current price around $370). I don't expect to ever have the legendary bundle unless I get lucky and win it during a developer update. I don't have the budget for it. But I also don't need anywhere close to everything in it. For example, I don't need most of the adventures. Nor do I feel the need for the DMG. I have a print copy, which I don't reference enough during play to make the compendium worth it to me given my budget. I can homebrew or individually purchase any magic items I might end up needing. Similarly, while I've purchased a subclass from SCAG, I don't need the whole thing on DDB. The other player options I've wanted from there I have homebrewed.
All that's to say that no one should look at the price tag of the Legendary Bundle and assume that one has to spend that amount of money for DDB to be sufficiently useful to them; it's possible that's the case, but it's also very likely that a more limited set of purchases would work equally well; the specifics of those purchases will depend on playstyle and how one wants to use DDB.
None of that may change the equation for you, and that's fine.
I'd like to add to what ArwensDaughter very well said by presenting some numbers, to put things into perspective (going by memory, so apologies if some of the numbers are a bit off):
Current possible base cost: 30*3 (core books) + 25*2 (Volo's+Xanathar's) = 140$
Current possible base cost with sharing: 140 + 55/y = 195$ first year, then 55$/y for up to 36 people to have access to all content bar advetures
Possible cost with content-granting subscription: 10/15*12 = 120/180$ per person (considering sharing in this case would hardly be an option)
The result would be (at least to my eye) that an entire group would need to pay slightly less for the first year, but then, as soon as the 3rd year, total cost would have been 195+(55*3) = 360$ (current, potentially for one account) against 120/180*3 = 360/540$ (proposed system potentially for everyone playing).
Just leaving this here, everyone can make their judgment.
I see your points, and although I do not disagree and they have made me think, but to me it's not really the amount of money that's the problem... It's the business practice of, as it feels to me, triple dipping!
Plus, honestly, my preferred way of paying for these services would just be through a subscription of about 10 dollars a month, or 15 if I can share everything with my players, and let that be it. That also makes it possible for me to actually try out the tools for a few months and stop if I don't like it. And I know I could just buy one book, or use the SRD stuff to try it out now, but that does not really work for me, as the games I'm running cover all the player's source books. Even just my own character that I play with in a game already has options from at least 3 different source books.
And your calculations can also go the other way. If dnd beyond would just let me pay 15 dollars a month for everything they would get 180 dollars per year from me. So within 1,5 years they will have made more money from me then if I now pay for the base cost and subscription. So, it feels to me, that they are not offering that possibility, because they are not convinced that their services are good enough to keep me paying for over a year...
I know I am not going to change dnd beyond. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, which hopefully enough people will do, so that in time dnd beyond will change to something I am willing to support. Or at least give WOTC something to think about in the future, so for 6th edition they will do it differently. I honestly did like how it was for the 4th edition tools, and also paid for those until we switched to 5th.
I understand yours (and other people's) is a feeling/perception issue, and everyone is perfectly in their right to voice their opinion, so take the following as just me furthering my own need to voice my logic, not as a tentative to convince you or anyone.
With the subscription-based content access, you pay 120/180$ for one year, then decide to stop paying. You'd have no access to anything you used, as if had never invested a single cent (that is usually how subscriptions work) and would be forced to start paying subscription again to be able to use the website and its tools.
In the current system, you pay 195$ for all player/monster options (excluding adventures and relative content) plus sharing for one year. You then decide to stop paying the subscription for any number of reasons. You still have access to the full 140$ of content you paid for, and free use of all the tools the site offers, with he only limitations of not being able to share contents you unlocked with others and 6 character slots (which is still better than 0). Alternatively, if you still want unlimited character slots, you can decide to lower your subscription to 25.99$/y, effectively halving your early expense in the subscription and keeping all other benefits bar sharing.
Again, please, do not think I am trying to convince you, I just feel I need to voice this logic, as much as you feel the need to point out what for you would be better/best.
I know I am not going to change dnd beyond. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, which hopefully enough people will do, so that in time dnd beyond will change to something I am willing to support. Or at least give WOTC something to think about in the future, so for 6th edition they will do it differently. I honestly did like how it was for the 4th edition tools, and also paid for those until we switched to 5th.
Thanks for the thoughtful, respectful reply. A number of folks here have said they'd prefer a subscription for content model, so you are not alone. On the other hand, that model would lose people like me, for whom the current way of doing things works well. (I've only spent about $50 to get what I want, including a year's Hero Tier so I could do more characters; wouldn't be willing/able to pay 120-180/year). Both models appeal to some and don't to others. I have no way to know how the numbers split in that regard, and I'm not making any claims about which group is "right" or "more deserving." I lucked out that they chose a model that works for me. Unfortunately that model doesn't appeal to/work for you. It's a bummer that there's no away to make everyone happy.
Plus, honestly, my preferred way of paying for these services would just be through a subscription of about 10 dollars a month, or 15 if I can share everything with my players, and let that be it. That also makes it possible for me to actually try out the tools for a few months and stop if I don't like it. And I know I could just buy one book, or use the SRD stuff to try it out now, but that does not really work for me, as the games I'm running cover all the player's source books. Even just my own character that I play with in a game already has options from at least 3 different source books.
I think it has been mentioned, but I will just note that you can buy that content piecemeal for only the pieces (subraces, subclasses, feats, items, spells) you need to use in your characters and it will cost far less, so that could work as your trial. If/when you want to purchase the full books, they will be discounted by as much as you've paid so far.
If you don't mind manually searching through the PHB at your table, or handing it around to your PCs when they need to look something up (and not having access to it yourself), or having your PCs all buy their own PHB go ahead, then this might not be the best option.. BUT
I own a Player's handbook. I spent $30 for the DNDBeyond one and have the Master tier subscription (~$4.60/month with the annual pay option). COMBINED that is a monthly average price of $7.10 allowing ALL of my players to make any character from the PHB and manage it in my campaign. And that's just prorated for the first year, after which the cost of the PHB will have been distributed.
I ALSO bought all the Player races and subraces from Volo's guide, the Sword Coast Adventurer's guide, The Tortle package, and I bought the spell and class bundles from Xanathar's to allow my PCs to use any of that content as well. It cost me $36.94. I didn't need to fully rebuy those books because the other content is for my own use and I'm fine using the hardcovers for those purposes.
So all together, allowing my 4 PCs to use any character content from the above sources prorated costs me about $10.18/month for the first year and $4.60/month after that if I don't keep buying more stuff.
Thank you, I did not know you could buy it piecemeal. That might be an option for me then. I will look into that.
And as for the comment about looking stuff up in the books at the table, my experience is that it will happen anyway. We use Roll20 as a tool for maps and combat tracking, which also has most of the rules in their compendium, and we usually also have other useful sites open, like donjon. But half the time we are still looking stuff up in the books. I do have to mention that we are a very rules discussion heavy group that often has trouble getting through 1 encounter per session. ;)
And as for the comment about looking stuff up in the books at the table, my experience is that it will happen anyway. We use Roll20 as a tool for maps and combat tracking, which also has most of the rules in their compendium, and we usually also have other useful sites open, like donjon. But half the time we are still looking stuff up in the books. I do have to mention that we are a very rules discussion heavy group that often has trouble getting through 1 encounter per session. ;)
I agree physical book flipping might happen anyway, but having used Roll20 for some time and having DM'd my first full session (meaning the first session of a new campaign and not just a one-night adventure) using only DDB recently, I can tell you that the search function on Roll20 and here in DDB are two worlds apart. I haven't really ever used donjon, so can't make a comment on that, but I can tell you DDB offers much superior lookup and referencing power than Roll20, at least imho.
As it has been stated in other threads, this discussion has already run it course with a multitude of opinions gathered. Please feel free to visit the link below to read through. We appreciate everyone's interest in D&D Beyond and understand that the pricing scheme may not suit all lifestyles.
The discussion on Physical vs Digital purchases is located here for review, which contains most arguments for and against:
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
They had the content yes, they didn't have video streams with Wizards staff. It feels like they are much more "all in" on DnDBeyond. Which is likely because it is exclusively for DnD, where the other platforms were platforms that just included DnD.
I actually had some info about brand value in my post before I shortened it to be the most important bits of info. I did preface my statement by saying I didn't think it should automatically come with it. But I do think people being upset no simple PDF option was never available is a valid complaint (even though its not relevant to Curse).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Sorry for necroing this post, but I want to weigh in (mostly as a tip for the developers), and this post seemed the way to do it.
I understand dnd beyond needs to make money to provide this service, and that there are licensing costs. However, besides the fact that it already feels like paying for the same thing twice (hardcover book and then the digital content), this service makes it worse by actually having me pay another time in the form of subscription. I would be happy to pay for the digital content again (although I do really think it is priced WAY too high) if it meant I could use the content within the services dnd beyond offers unrestricted, and preferably also share it with my players. Or I would be happy to pay a subscription (of 10-15 dollars per month even) to get unrestricted access to the services and all content for the duration of the subscription (preferable also sharing it with my players of course, but that's no deal breaker). But what you expect me to do and which I absolutely refuse to do, is buy all the content again, which would now cost me almost 350 dollars I think. And then also be forced to pay another 5 dollars a month to actually use the content. That does not only feel like double dipping, but basically triple dipping if you already have all the books (digitally).
It seems to me that a service like this want as many paying customers as they can get, and, in my opinion, due to this pricing strategy you will lose an overwhelming amount of your possible customers to all the free alternatives out there, which granted may be illegal, I honestly don't know. The thing I do know is that, even though I, and likely a lot of people with me, want to support the official content, I find these pricing and business strategies offensive, and will therefore not support dnd beyond.
You have every right to decide that DDB does not provide sufficient value to you for what it costs, and nothing I say below is meant to deny that.
I do want to address some of your points, because it appears to me that you may have misunderstood how DDB works.
A subscription to DDB is *not* required to use the contents. If you want to share content with other players, a Master Tier subscription is required, and this may be what you meant, but I couldn't tell for sure from what you wrote above. If I opted for the Master Tier, I would likely only do so if the group(s) I planned on sharing content with were willing to help with the cost of the subscription and/or were willing to take on the cost of buying some of the content we wanted/needed. Keep in mind that only one person in a "campaign" needs to have the Master Tier subscription in order for everyone in the campaign to share the content they've purchased. The financial burden for the content does not need to rest solely on one person.
Similarly, it does not necessarily need to cost you $350 for content. The final cost for content depends on what content a user wants/needs on DDB (which depends on how one wants to use it) and on how much work a user is willing to put in to homebrew things to avoid paying for content. In terms of character options, everything in the official published books except for subclasses can be privately homebrewed; homebrew subclasses are coming. Spells and monsters can likewise be homebrewed. Or things can be purchased piecemeal, with those costs going towards the cost of the "book" from which it came. This thread contains some real life examples of what people have purchased and why, running the gamut from nothing to the legendary bundle.
Quite frankly, I've been amazed at how many people seem to have bought the Legendary Bundle (current price around $370). I don't expect to ever have the legendary bundle unless I get lucky and win it during a developer update. I don't have the budget for it. But I also don't need anywhere close to everything in it. For example, I don't need most of the adventures. Nor do I feel the need for the DMG. I have a print copy, which I don't reference enough during play to make the compendium worth it to me given my budget. I can homebrew or individually purchase any magic items I might end up needing. Similarly, while I've purchased a subclass from SCAG, I don't need the whole thing on DDB. The other player options I've wanted from there I have homebrewed.
All that's to say that no one should look at the price tag of the Legendary Bundle and assume that one has to spend that amount of money for DDB to be sufficiently useful to them; it's possible that's the case, but it's also very likely that a more limited set of purchases would work equally well; the specifics of those purchases will depend on playstyle and how one wants to use DDB.
None of that may change the equation for you, and that's fine.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
I'd like to add to what ArwensDaughter very well said by presenting some numbers, to put things into perspective (going by memory, so apologies if some of the numbers are a bit off):
Current possible base cost: 30*3 (core books) + 25*2 (Volo's+Xanathar's) = 140$
Current possible base cost with sharing: 140 + 55/y = 195$ first year, then 55$/y for up to 36 people to have access to all content bar advetures
Possible cost with content-granting subscription: 10/15*12 = 120/180$ per person (considering sharing in this case would hardly be an option)
The result would be (at least to my eye) that an entire group would need to pay slightly less for the first year, but then, as soon as the 3rd year, total cost would have been 195+(55*3) = 360$ (current, potentially for one account) against 120/180*3 = 360/540$ (proposed system potentially for everyone playing).
Just leaving this here, everyone can make their judgment.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I see your points, and although I do not disagree and they have made me think, but to me it's not really the amount of money that's the problem... It's the business practice of, as it feels to me, triple dipping!
Plus, honestly, my preferred way of paying for these services would just be through a subscription of about 10 dollars a month, or 15 if I can share everything with my players, and let that be it. That also makes it possible for me to actually try out the tools for a few months and stop if I don't like it. And I know I could just buy one book, or use the SRD stuff to try it out now, but that does not really work for me, as the games I'm running cover all the player's source books. Even just my own character that I play with in a game already has options from at least 3 different source books.
And your calculations can also go the other way. If dnd beyond would just let me pay 15 dollars a month for everything they would get 180 dollars per year from me. So within 1,5 years they will have made more money from me then if I now pay for the base cost and subscription. So, it feels to me, that they are not offering that possibility, because they are not convinced that their services are good enough to keep me paying for over a year...
I know I am not going to change dnd beyond. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, which hopefully enough people will do, so that in time dnd beyond will change to something I am willing to support. Or at least give WOTC something to think about in the future, so for 6th edition they will do it differently. I honestly did like how it was for the 4th edition tools, and also paid for those until we switched to 5th.
I understand yours (and other people's) is a feeling/perception issue, and everyone is perfectly in their right to voice their opinion, so take the following as just me furthering my own need to voice my logic, not as a tentative to convince you or anyone.
With the subscription-based content access, you pay 120/180$ for one year, then decide to stop paying. You'd have no access to anything you used, as if had never invested a single cent (that is usually how subscriptions work) and would be forced to start paying subscription again to be able to use the website and its tools.
In the current system, you pay 195$ for all player/monster options (excluding adventures and relative content) plus sharing for one year. You then decide to stop paying the subscription for any number of reasons. You still have access to the full 140$ of content you paid for, and free use of all the tools the site offers, with he only limitations of not being able to share contents you unlocked with others and 6 character slots (which is still better than 0). Alternatively, if you still want unlimited character slots, you can decide to lower your subscription to 25.99$/y, effectively halving your early expense in the subscription and keeping all other benefits bar sharing.
Again, please, do not think I am trying to convince you, I just feel I need to voice this logic, as much as you feel the need to point out what for you would be better/best.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
If you don't mind manually searching through the PHB at your table, or handing it around to your PCs when they need to look something up (and not having access to it yourself), or having your PCs all buy their own PHB go ahead, then this might not be the best option.. BUT
I own a Player's handbook. I spent $30 for the DNDBeyond one and have the Master tier subscription (~$4.60/month with the annual pay option). COMBINED that is a monthly average price of $7.10 allowing ALL of my players to make any character from the PHB and manage it in my campaign. And that's just prorated for the first year, after which the cost of the PHB will have been distributed.
I ALSO bought all the Player races and subraces from Volo's guide, the Sword Coast Adventurer's guide, The Tortle package, and I bought the spell and class bundles from Xanathar's to allow my PCs to use any of that content as well. It cost me $36.94. I didn't need to fully rebuy those books because the other content is for my own use and I'm fine using the hardcovers for those purposes.
So all together, allowing my 4 PCs to use any character content from the above sources prorated costs me about $10.18/month for the first year and $4.60/month after that if I don't keep buying more stuff.
But I will =)
Thank you, I did not know you could buy it piecemeal. That might be an option for me then. I will look into that.
And as for the comment about looking stuff up in the books at the table, my experience is that it will happen anyway. We use Roll20 as a tool for maps and combat tracking, which also has most of the rules in their compendium, and we usually also have other useful sites open, like donjon. But half the time we are still looking stuff up in the books. I do have to mention that we are a very rules discussion heavy group that often has trouble getting through 1 encounter per session. ;)
I haven't really ever used donjon, so can't make a comment on that, but I can tell you DDB offers much superior lookup and referencing power than Roll20, at least imho.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
As it has been stated in other threads, this discussion has already run it course with a multitude of opinions gathered. Please feel free to visit the link below to read through. We appreciate everyone's interest in D&D Beyond and understand that the pricing scheme may not suit all lifestyles.
As this thread was necro'd to further the debate, it has now been locked.