I don't want this to seem like just a complaint - I really want companies like DnD Beyond to be successful - but I'm struggling with finding how it's worth my money to use DnD Beyond.
I'm coming back into AD&D and heard of D&D Beyond watching Crit Role. I Decided to try it out - the free version doesn't have a lot of features soI think, "ok buy a subscription and see what the full version is like".
But the subscription gives what we used to call "crippleware". Less than 25% of the Class options in the Players handbook are available.
So I peruse the forums and find the answer to this. The answer to this by D&D Beyond is:
option 1 - Buy all the source books a second time at the same price.
Maybe some people prefer e-books, but this option doesn't make sense to me. If I am doing an online game, I want to use my screen for thing other than 3 rules books and if I'm doing a f2f game, it's easier to have the physical book as well. It's just easier both ways for me to have PHB, MM, DMG, WGE and the module and campaign guide all laid out around me with physical bookmarks, highlights, and
Having electronic books just doesn't make sense to me unless they are considerably discounted.
There is the option of "Make your players pay to play, then you can pay DnD Beyond". But I just want to play the game - not try to make it into some kind of monetization or business enterprise where I have to deal with collecting money every play session or whatever. Paypal or asking people for their cc info? Or have to use some other kind of media like Parteon and keep track of who has paid and who hasn't. That option I see as just making more work for me that I don't want, the players will feel like they are paying and want to "get their money's worth", and the money I just hand over to DnD beyond for something that's just kind of sort of useful but not really. I just want to play a game, not go back to work in my free time.
Option 2 - Copy the information from the PHB using "Homebrew".
I suppose this is an option, but it requires more time and effort than actually just talking to all my players during character creation and just sharing a fillable pdf form on Googledocs.
Maybe I am missing something here. I just don't understand what benefits are really being offered, lol.
Dnd Beyond offers more then just the books. It is more about the online toolsets that you get access to like the ability to create encounters on the website, quickly search for the information you need, Search for things based on specific categories, automatically adjusting character sheets/doing calculations for you, so on an so forth. For some people it is totally not worth it to use Dnd Beyond, for others its the only way they can play the game.
Before you purchase anything it is a good idea to look around the website and get a feel for what it does for you. Like you said, if you are better off just having the physical books in front of you then great. You dont have to use Dnd Beyond to play Dnd. Also you don't need a subscription to use Dnd beyond at all. In fact, I think a lot of the people on the website would say NOT to buy a subscription unless you and all of your players are going to use Dnd Beyond. You do not get any of the content from any of the books when your purchase a subscription.
There are several other websites that you can use instead, especially if you are looking for a Virtual Tabletop, but I do warn you that basically every website that you can create a character on that is more than just a blank character sheet will require that you repurchase the books at full price. As far as I am aware, Dnd beyond is the only website that allows you to make and use homebrew within their system and would even allow you to homebrew create the classes from the books you already own.
Look around on the general section of the forums and you'll be able to find people discussing the value of the varying aspects of Dnd Beyond, but ultimately its up to you. If you don't think it is worth it than you don't have to purchase anything.
The only thing that's making me even consider a subscription is that I can use homebrew stuff in their character sheet
You can use any Homebrew stuff you create, and anything in any of the collections of anyone in the same campaign with you even without a subscription. You only need the subscription to add Public Homebrew to your own collection.
This website is not owned by the same company that publishes D&D. That company is called Wizards of the Coast (WotC) which is owned by Hasbro. This website is owned by Fandom. This website is a bookstore, and it only sells digital versions of D&D books. That’s how they make money. They also have created a number of free resources for their customers to use with the books we purchase here, including the character builder/sheet, Encounter Builder/Combat Tracker, and two free apps. They are continuing to develop more tools as well as expand on the existing ones.
So, what do you get with a basic subscription? An infinite amount of storage space on DDB’s servers for your stuff here. With a Master Tier sub, you can also allow anyone in campaigns with you to all share everything that all of them have purchased.
As to the purchase price of the materials, DDB sells the Full Versions of books for a 40% off discount (MSRP is $50). Just because Amazon also sells their books for the same 40% off, that doesn’t mean it’s not a discount.
You pretty much summed it up in your own OP. D&D Beyond is not essential to playing D&D if you want to do up your own google doc or what have you and trust or guide your players through character generation. Like any accessory, it provides some players and GMs some benefit. For example, the character generation walkthrough makes things more efficient and does help new players as a map that's clearer than the path laid out in the PHB. So it's not pay to play, it's paying for content you want in this tool set which is not essential to playing D&D, but for a lot of players enhances their game.
Me, I actually have a master tier, and own a lot of content. With that, anyone attached to my campaigns (which could cap at about 36 people, I think that limit was pushed to 60, but not sure where that stands) can use any of the content I've unlocked: sourcebooks, adventures, etc. Basically you furnish players a digital library so no one has to worry about borrowing and losing or spilling Mountain Dew on a book. I'm the "lead Dad" in a group that's got one other experience player, and then a bunch of adults relatively new to the hobby and children largely new to role playing. Especially for the kids, I don't want them to clamor parents for books etc., so for me, the investment is worth it to the group. That said, if I wasn't heading this particular group make up, or didn't have the resources to spend on the level of buy in I've made, I could play D&D without D&D Beyond. As it is now though, it's pretty indispensable to my group and in my opinion money well spent just for the past year alone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Dnd Beyond offers more then just the books. It is more about the online toolsets that you get access to like the ability to create encounters on the website, quickly search for the information you need, Search for things based on specific categories, automatically adjusting character sheets/doing calculations for you, so on an so forth. For some people it is totally not worth it to use Dnd Beyond, for others its the only way they can play the game.
Before you purchase anything it is a good idea to look around the website and get a feel for what it does for you. Like you said, if you are better off just having the physical books in front of you then great. You dont have to use Dnd Beyond to play Dnd. Also you don't need a subscription to use Dnd beyond at all. In fact, I think a lot of the people on the website would say NOT to buy a subscription unless you and all of your players are going to use Dnd Beyond. You do not get any of the content from any of the books when your purchase a subscription.
There are several other websites that you can use instead, especially if you are looking for a Virtual Tabletop, but I do warn you that basically every website that you can create a character on that is more than just a blank character sheet will require that you repurchase the books at full price. As far as I am aware, Dnd beyond is the only website that allows you to make and use homebrew within their system and would even allow you to homebrew create the classes from the books you already own.
Look around on the general section of the forums and you'll be able to find people discussing the value of the varying aspects of Dnd Beyond, but ultimately its up to you. If you don't think it is worth it than you don't have to purchase anything.
Right now I'm looking at VTTs. Honestly for me blank character sheets I can fill in and upload to a VTT would be pretty much all I want, lol. Even completely blank monster stats for a vtt are preferable to me. In a given gaming session there are going to be at most 5 new creatures or so.
I think the larger issue is that even though I and probably 99% of DM's are not doing it for money - as a DM, players are in a way my "customers". How can I get new or returning players interested in the game with such a large hurdle to overcome to just make a character? In this regard with new players it's really a big hurdle to get new players to even complete a Session 0.
I'm finding it takes me several hours to simply create a character in on Dnd Beyond with this method of creating "Homebrew" content (that are actually official PHB options) while without it would take me an hour at most including multilayered background story.
I think my complaint is that for me a blank sheet (and blank monster stats for a vtt) would probably be better - Today what prompted me to post is that I was trying to create a "homebrew" Tempest Cleric Subclass on DnD Beyond (actually it's the official PHB version) but that required so much extra time and I didn't even do it correctly so the character sheet still shows he's limited to light armor and simple weapons in the left column. Maybe if I invested time to learn how to do it correctly - for each and every official content that is not supported unless I buy the book again - ugh.
On our campaigns we're using DnD Beyond + Roll20 (only free version) and only one of us (we are 8 people, playing in 2 campaigns and only 2 have bought books, so 6 people are using the free version) has a subscription. Thus we can share all the books, which is a huge advantage. basically I'd say that only the DM needs pied content and maybe a subscription, we've been playing for several month without a subscription. With the sub, we can now share the costs and the books and we just don't feel like buying any more paper books in general. I totally get the people that don't like ebooks, but that's not us. The only thing we dislike is, that we don't get the PDFs here, because it's all "in the cloud" (yes offline in the App), but if DnD Beyond shuts down for whatever reason, you lose everything, which is a very valid point to buy the real books or at least the PDFs via DriveThru or so. And the navigation and search, especially within one book, is sometimes pretty bad. I mean, why can't I open one sourcebook/module and search inside this book? Why can't I just flip through the pages like in a PDF, why do I have to use the DnD Beyond navigation? But well, that's what you get for paying less for the books I guess.
And as we're only playing online atm (due to the pandemic, but also living in different cities or even countries), we need the digital material and VTT, because we don't like ToM for battles. And we all really don't like the character sheet and all the macro stuff in Roll20. DnD Beyond is far superior for all character stuff and well, it looks great.
I really have to say: sadly we have to use Roll20 for the battle maps/ambient images, because it just feels outdated and usability is not that great. Haven't tried any other VTT Tool yet and don't feel like switching because it would be a whole lot of work and afaik all other goof VTT tools also cost money and not all of them have a DnD Beyond integration (via Beyond20). So we kinda stick to it but would love to see DnD Beyond going down this road (which they won't in the near future). Because just rolling digital 3D dice over your screen feels kinda stupid (sorry) if you still have to share the result with your group. It's just a little gimmick and really overpriced and should just be for free. I just don't get it, why they even keep bothering developing that stuff, instead for just going the full VTT road. But well it generates money for just repainting some digital content...
To sum this up I'd say, that DnD Beyond offers great possibilities for character&campaign organization tools, having everything digital and being able to share it with your group is great and might even save you a lot of money, especially if you share. And the integration in some VTT systems is also great. If you're just playing IRL, you don't need it though and being old-school with real books and paper character sheets is awesome. But for people that are forced to online gaming, due to various reasons, our group is really thankful for DnD Beyond despite some of the shortcomings.
DnDBeyond is a toolset basically a few things you may not have considered. DnDBeyond sells the tools and pays Wizards of the Coast for the license to put the info in the tools for customers. With that limitation its possible to buy exactly what you want and lower the cost of the whole. So you have the tools for all information that WOTC gives for free (the SRD and the Basic rules) without getting a subscription you can make up to 5 characters completely for free. As long as you are happy with the basic tools and only want 5 characters you can play with no money changing hands. You can also spend a little money to expand a lot what you can play by buying just what you need. You can buy just the pieces you need (say the subclass you want to play for usually $2 or the subrace you want also around $2. The amount you spend will lower the cost of the whole book and lower the cost of the bundles they are a part of.
Your whole group could get one master tier and each person being responsible for their character race and class costs each person would have about $6 cost and add about $8 for the master tier/month. Through sharing you could share the things each person buys.
Dnd Beyond offers more then just the books. It is more about the online toolsets that you get access to like the ability to create encounters on the website, quickly search for the information you need, Search for things based on specific categories, automatically adjusting character sheets/doing calculations for you, so on an so forth. For some people it is totally not worth it to use Dnd Beyond, for others its the only way they can play the game.
Before you purchase anything it is a good idea to look around the website and get a feel for what it does for you. Like you said, if you are better off just having the physical books in front of you then great. You dont have to use Dnd Beyond to play Dnd. Also you don't need a subscription to use Dnd beyond at all. In fact, I think a lot of the people on the website would say NOT to buy a subscription unless you and all of your players are going to use Dnd Beyond. You do not get any of the content from any of the books when your purchase a subscription.
There are several other websites that you can use instead, especially if you are looking for a Virtual Tabletop, but I do warn you that basically every website that you can create a character on that is more than just a blank character sheet will require that you repurchase the books at full price. As far as I am aware, Dnd beyond is the only website that allows you to make and use homebrew within their system and would even allow you to homebrew create the classes from the books you already own.
Look around on the general section of the forums and you'll be able to find people discussing the value of the varying aspects of Dnd Beyond, but ultimately its up to you. If you don't think it is worth it than you don't have to purchase anything.
Right now I'm looking at VTTs. Honestly for me blank character sheets I can fill in and upload to a VTT would be pretty much all I want, lol. Even completely blank monster stats for a vtt are preferable to me. In a given gaming session there are going to be at most 5 new creatures or so.
I think the larger issue is that even though I and probably 99% of DM's are not doing it for money - as a DM, players are in a way my "customers". How can I get new or returning players interested in the game with such a large hurdle to overcome to just make a character? In this regard with new players it's really a big hurdle to get new players to even complete a Session 0.
I'm finding it takes me several hours to simply create a character in on Dnd Beyond with this method of creating "Homebrew" content (that are actually official PHB options) while without it would take me an hour at most including multilayered background story.
I think my complaint is that for me a blank sheet (and blank monster stats for a vtt) would probably be better - Today what prompted me to post is that I was trying to create a "homebrew" Tempest Cleric Subclass on DnD Beyond (actually it's the official PHB version) but that required so much extra time and I didn't even do it correctly so the character sheet still shows he's limited to light armor and simple weapons in the left column. Maybe if I invested time to learn how to do it correctly - for each and every official content that is not supported unless I buy the book again - ugh.
Fair point, but I really don't get it :)
In our campaigns we started with 4 people that have never played a RPG in their life and 3 people that have never played DnD (out of 8). The character generation with DnD Beyond was so easy for all of them and far easier than having to read a book and flipping back and forth through all the pages. Because everything was there, could be done individually and the DM could always have a look at a character in the camapign, make a video call and maybe discuss some points. Starting with a blank sheet, reading a book (or sevreal books) and filling in the blanks is far more complicated and time consuming, especially for new players.
The far bigger hurdle was the backstory, because all of our characters, even the ones of the new players, has several pages of backstory. The rest is basically just some stats and a digital tool like DnD Beyond just helps with showing you what you can do and what you can't, because you don't have to study the rules. It's just like "you picked X so this automatically gives you Y..." simple. Creating a character takes days, because of the backstory. But filling in the character sheet with DnD Beyond just takes several minutes and is most of the time pretty intuitive, even for totally new players. At least that's what I've experienced.
And even the 2 of the really experienced players (like ~25y RP experience, just not in DnD) where totally amazed by how easy the toolset is.
UncleRay, it sounds like what you really need is a homebrew mentor to get you over the "ugh" hump of pomebrewing content you own in print and don't want to unlock what D&D Beyond has coded. The other cool thing about DDB is the community of users who are generous with advice and tutorials on how to do pretty much everything, including the homebrew situation you find yourself in. No, you're not really "pomebrewing" official content; but either you load up the content yourself so it can be used over and over again, or you manually do the character sheets with your players on a case by case basis. It sort of comes down to cost benefit analysis of time, money and scale. If you see yourself only running one game ever, DDB's probably not worth a heavy investment. My player ten players have made I think around 40-50 characters, and have also been able to read up on monsters and lore as a break from the monotony of COVID lockdowns, so again, it was worth it to me for those benefits and the occasionally cost recoup in pizza or beers being sent to the DM.
Homebrewing, especially official content can be interesting and another layer of learning the game. Sort of analogous to taking apart your cars engine, you get a better sense of how the game works. Again, not essential, but I'd say the product has made me a better DM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I don't want this to seem like just a complaint - I really want companies like DnD Beyond to be successful - but I'm struggling with finding how it's worth my money to use DnD Beyond.
I'm coming back into AD&D and heard of D&D Beyond watching Crit Role. I Decided to try it out - the free version doesn't have a lot of features soI think, "ok buy a subscription and see what the full version is like".
...
Maybe I am missing something here. I just don't understand what benefits are really being offered, lol.
This just basically boils down to paying for convenience. I do not mind paying for convenience, but you do not want to pay for it, and that is fine. Everyone have different priorities and value things differently. Just keep in mind that convenience ultimately is not free, someone made that convenience possible, and they deserve to be compensated for it.
option 1 - Buy all the source books a second time at the same price.
Maybe some people prefer e-books, but this option doesn't make sense to me. If I am doing an online game, I want to use my screen for thing other than 3 rules books and if I'm doing a f2f game, it's easier to have the physical book as well. It's just easier both ways for me to have PHB, MM, DMG, WGE and the module and campaign guide all laid out around me with physical bookmarks, highlights, and
Having electronic books just doesn't make sense to me unless they are considerably discounted.
For the sake of argument, a person could just as easily say the same about physical books and see no point in them. A phone takes much less physical space on the table, and most phones these days can multitask seamlessly, so switching between tabs and apps is hardly an issue. With less real estate required, players can play with bigger and fancier battle maps, play over food and drinks if they prefer theater of the mind, or abandon the table altogether and play anywhere they want. During my third or fourth session, I distinctly remember playing in my car while hanging out with my friends because we were bored. Because we had Beyond, no tables were required, and we used an app to roll dice.
The full price of books on D&D Beyond is more than just the information in the books. It comes with the integration of that information with their digital tools, such as character sheets and databases of monsters, spells, items, etc. In my opinion, it is more fair to compare the prices of physical books to just the compendium content/ebook portion of Beyond's books. The physical books do not come with tools of any kind, and they cost around $30 on Amazon. Beyond's fully priced books cost around $30 too, but if you are just after the compendium content and do not care about the digital tools, then it is only $20.
Personally, I like both physical and digital, but I think they are fully justified in charging them separately and not bundle any of it. I do not mind paying twice to buy some games for both my Switch and on Steam. It would be nice if they bundled the games on Switch with Steam, but that is their game and they can charge their products however they like.
There is the option of "Make your players pay to play, then you can pay DnD Beyond". But I just want to play the game - not try to make it into some kind of monetization or business enterprise where I have to deal with collecting money every play session or whatever. Paypal or asking people for their cc info? Or have to use some other kind of media like Parteon and keep track of who has paid and who hasn't. That option I see as just making more work for me that I don't want, the players will feel like they are paying and want to "get their money's worth", and the money I just hand over to DnD beyond for something that's just kind of sort of useful but not really. I just want to play a game, not go back to work in my free time.
This applies to physical books too, and sunk cost is only relevant if a person is making a transition from one platform or medium to another. For a new player, digital offers way more convenience and features than the physical route in my opinion.
I already have the Legendary Bundle on Beyond, so it makes little sense for me to transition to physical. I would even argue that making the transition from digital to physical is even more daunting than the physical to digital transition, since that also means I need to buy office supplies for physical character sheets (pencils, paper, erasers, etc.) and buy suitcases to lug around all the books. Editing you character sheet would also be a bit more annoying and I would also need to do all the calculations myself.
Option 2 - Copy the information from the PHB using "Homebrew".
I suppose this is an option, but it requires more time and effort than actually just talking to all my players during character creation and just sharing a fillable pdf form on Googledocs.
Docs is easier in terms of just filling in text, but if you want it to integrate the rules and calculate things for you, that is going to be more difficult. If you do not mind doing some of the calculations manually, homebrewing via Docs is easier.
Why does everyone the moment this discussion comes up use the same nonsensical talking points/refuse to hear where people who want a subscription to the actual content are coming from? it's all either defending the pretty much useless subscriptions, saying "just buy it and share it duh" or asserting to do the tedious workaround of homebrewing the official content into the game.
This topic keeps coming up because as someone in this thread pointed out, it's a massive commitment money-wise for something that may or may not work out, which is fine if your a veteran but the current system is too commitment heavy for new players, so most barely use DnDbeyond or just use pirated pdfs, a dice roll bot for discord, some other character manager for sheets, etc. I know I'm sure as hell not buying eBooks on beyond anytime soon if ever and frankly not a single player I've met outside of these forums have, not even the DMs I've met and for a time where DnD has never been more popular a lack of a semi money friendly subscription service is just downright odd, DnD is great but unless you have a shitton of expendable income it's too much of a commitment which turns off new players heavily, unless they pirate it in which case WotC isn't making money from them either, ease of access to this stuff even at a monetary cost has evidently decreased pirating, you offer people an easier option they'll take it as long as they think it's fair, steam is the prime example, how they combated piracy was not to just ignore it like WotC but to make the service they offer more convenient than pirating because as long as pirating is still more convenient people will still do it, DnDbeyond can add all the bells and whistles they want but until there is a better way to obtain access to the books/core content online both WotC and DnDbeyond will be losing money to piracy, which is doublely bad because they definitely missed out on a prime opportunity with everyone around the world spending far more time inside than they'd like these days, a lot of people tried playing DnD to fill in the time, very few I've seen stuck with it however, even I haven't, even though I want to find a reason to play/get the books, the price tag of $400 to nearly $1000 is obscene in a time where buying food is even difficult (even without the worldwide pandemic).
Tl;dr people are literally asking for another convenient/ non obscenely committal option that is more beginner friendly, asking to literally give WotC and Beyond their money for that better option but like blockbuster the only option for now, is fork up or put on the skull hat and most who stay to play pick the latter.
Why does everyone the moment this discussion comes up use the same nonsensical talking points/refuse to hear where people who want a subscription to the actual content are coming from?
Because people keep ignoring reality and assert their own fantasy of how a business should be run and what prices they should charge. Not all businesses are the same, and pricing models that work for one business or industry is not going to work for another.
Tl;dr people are literally asking for another convenient/ non obscenely committal option that is more beginner friendly, asking to literally give WotC and Beyond their money for that better option but like blockbuster the only option for now, is fork up or put on the skull hat and most who stay to play pick the latter.
What a lot of these people do not realize is that they are essentially asking Wizards and Beyond to go **** themselves and work for little to no pay. What these people are doing is basically the same as going to a restaurant demanding that they sell their food for less because they cannot afford to pay full price, and then they argue about how they can eat as much as they want at a buffet down the street by paying only once. Not every restaurant can be run like a buffet, and that is not how business works.
D&D can already be played for FREE. You do NOT need any of the paid books to play. If you cannot afford the official stuff, there are a ton of homebrew content out there that are available for free or for a very low price. You can also just ask people nicely on the forums if they can join your campaign so they can create a character for you to claim.
Bout as aggressive and unreasonable of a response as I expected, why'd I even try.
Your restaurant analogy doesn't work either btw, you can't pirate a steak and have it forever can you? [REDACTED] So you can then claim I have a wild fantasy about how businesses are run and imply I'm somehow an idiot for merely saying that people who choose to pirate said content aren't giving them money anyway unless they where given a better alt, which precedent shows combating piracy though offering a better alterative reduces it but hey according to your illustrious business acumen, steam is apparently working for little to no pay and with subscription based services that work in spite of your assertion/knee jerk response, Xcloud is doing spectacularly. If this was a fair discussion and not mud flinging, I'd say comparing Xcloud to DnD beyond s not a fair comparison but it's far closer than a restaurant so it's fair lmao.
And lastly I didn't demand anything, not sure where you pulled that from [REDACTED]
Notes: Posts will be kept constructive and respectful.
This topic keeps coming up because as someone in this thread pointed out, it's a massive commitment money-wise for something that may or may not work out, which is fine if your a veteran but the current system is too commitment heavy for new players
I'm starting a new campaign with new players and they've more or less got the hang of it. They've got a veteran DM and myself and one other who are experienced with DnDBeyond - it just takes time and patience; they've already caught on very quick as the character sheet is very intuitive.
You're absolutely right that it is a financial commitment but that's always a personal choice - I've found it to be well worth what I've paid as having the digital tools accessible has greatly increased the enjoyments and logistic handling of any games I've played. Having the subscription also benefits those that can't afford it, or you have a system where players 'donate' to the subscriber. Whichever is more helpful to the group.
Just my personal experience of course and I can't speak for everybody.
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#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.
I guess I can see that and I'm glad you took my comment at face value and didn't just go full strawman on me like the other guy, maybe I just haven't found a group that makes that sort of commitment seem worth it or any DM who has made said commitment themselves, just wish I could go over the books without pirating them (which I haven't) cause of how much blood, sweat and passion must have went into making them and cause of covid and the lockdowns my partner and I don't have any expendable income to actually purchase them lump sum like they are rn but it would have been nice to play, just most groups I've found expect players to know a bunch of martial which we can't buy :/
I don't know where you're located, but see if you can borrow the books through your local public library. Even if they don't have them, they might be able to get them on interlibrary loan. My local library has a good number of the books, and I did that when I was first starting out.
The person saying its a massive commitment isn't really being fair. Most players can buy the tools they need for $10 to $15 to play a single game. A dungeon master maybe $25.
The complaints always assume the new player is buying whole books but there is no need to that. Just buy your background, subrace and subclass.
Bout as aggressive and unreasonable of a response as I expected, why'd I even try.
I was not trying to be aggressive, but I have been extremely annoyed. I see these kinds of attitudes on here almost every other week, and with the economy opening back up, I am beginning to notice how absolutely awful some customers can be in real life too.
Your restaurant analogy doesn't work either btw, you can't pirate a steak and have it forever can you?
Stealing trade secrets, in this case if a steak recipe is critical to success of a business, is a crime. Stealing the actual product itself is often referred to as dine and dash.
So you can then claim I have a wild fantasy about how businesses are run and imply I'm somehow an idiot for merely saying that people who choose to pirate said content aren't giving them money anyway unless they where given a better alt, which precedent shows combating piracy though offering a better alterative reduces it
Some potential customers are simply not worth the cost to cater to nor serve. A business would lose money if they try to serve every potential customer regardless of cost.
but hey according to your illustrious business acumen
I went to school for accounting and I have 2 years of experience in bookkeeping. My business acumen is definitely no where near illustrious, but I know enough that running a small business is neither cheap nor easy, and I consider costs and obstacles that a lay person normally would not even think about.
steam is apparently working for little to no pay and with subscription based services that work in spite of your assertion/knee jerk response, Xcloud is doing spectacularly. If this was a fair discussion and not mud flinging, I'd say comparing Xcloud to DnD beyond s not a fair comparison but it's far closer than a restaurant so it's fair lmao.
As I have said previously, a revenue model that works for one business or industry does not necessarily mean that it would work for another business or industry.
Steam and Xcloud are massive distribution platforms with overwhelming power over customers and other business partners. Beyond is under the thumb of Wizards, and Beyond does not seem to have much support from Fandom. Additionally, if the videogame industry is the size of the United States ($78 billion in 2017), the TTRPG industry would be about the size of Delaware ($35 million in 2017). You cannot realistically expect a business the size of Beyond in the tiny TTRPG industry to be able to compete on pricing against massive giants in the vast videogame industry. For every dollar the TTRPG industry gets, the videogame industry gets over two thousand times that amount, and can plough those extra profits back into the business, make operations more efficient, and pass on those savings to customers.
And lastly I didn't demand anything, not sure where you pulled that from
You claimed you wanted to play D&D but balked at the price tag for all the official books, so I mentioned playing D&D for free. Most people do NOT buy every book, and some do not even buy a single book; in my group, I shouldered almost the entire cost of the hobby, and none of my players spent a dime on Beyond.
I don't want this to seem like just a complaint - I really want companies like DnD Beyond to be successful - but I'm struggling with finding how it's worth my money to use DnD Beyond.
I'm coming back into AD&D and heard of D&D Beyond watching Crit Role. I Decided to try it out - the free version doesn't have a lot of features soI think, "ok buy a subscription and see what the full version is like".
But the subscription gives what we used to call "crippleware". Less than 25% of the Class options in the Players handbook are available.
So I peruse the forums and find the answer to this. The answer to this by D&D Beyond is:
option 1 - Buy all the source books a second time at the same price.
Maybe some people prefer e-books, but this option doesn't make sense to me. If I am doing an online game, I want to use my screen for thing other than 3 rules books and if I'm doing a f2f game, it's easier to have the physical book as well. It's just easier both ways for me to have PHB, MM, DMG, WGE and the module and campaign guide all laid out around me with physical bookmarks, highlights, and
Having electronic books just doesn't make sense to me unless they are considerably discounted.
There is the option of "Make your players pay to play, then you can pay DnD Beyond". But I just want to play the game - not try to make it into some kind of monetization or business enterprise where I have to deal with collecting money every play session or whatever. Paypal or asking people for their cc info? Or have to use some other kind of media like Parteon and keep track of who has paid and who hasn't. That option I see as just making more work for me that I don't want, the players will feel like they are paying and want to "get their money's worth", and the money I just hand over to DnD beyond for something that's just kind of sort of useful but not really. I just want to play a game, not go back to work in my free time.
Option 2 - Copy the information from the PHB using "Homebrew".
I suppose this is an option, but it requires more time and effort than actually just talking to all my players during character creation and just sharing a fillable pdf form on Googledocs.
Maybe I am missing something here. I just don't understand what benefits are really being offered, lol.
The only thing that's making me even consider a subscription is that I can use homebrew stuff in their character sheet
Dnd Beyond offers more then just the books. It is more about the online toolsets that you get access to like the ability to create encounters on the website, quickly search for the information you need, Search for things based on specific categories, automatically adjusting character sheets/doing calculations for you, so on an so forth. For some people it is totally not worth it to use Dnd Beyond, for others its the only way they can play the game.
Before you purchase anything it is a good idea to look around the website and get a feel for what it does for you. Like you said, if you are better off just having the physical books in front of you then great. You dont have to use Dnd Beyond to play Dnd. Also you don't need a subscription to use Dnd beyond at all. In fact, I think a lot of the people on the website would say NOT to buy a subscription unless you and all of your players are going to use Dnd Beyond. You do not get any of the content from any of the books when your purchase a subscription.
There are several other websites that you can use instead, especially if you are looking for a Virtual Tabletop, but I do warn you that basically every website that you can create a character on that is more than just a blank character sheet will require that you repurchase the books at full price. As far as I am aware, Dnd beyond is the only website that allows you to make and use homebrew within their system and would even allow you to homebrew create the classes from the books you already own.
Look around on the general section of the forums and you'll be able to find people discussing the value of the varying aspects of Dnd Beyond, but ultimately its up to you. If you don't think it is worth it than you don't have to purchase anything.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
You can use any Homebrew stuff you create, and anything in any of the collections of anyone in the same campaign with you even without a subscription. You only need the subscription to add Public Homebrew to your own collection.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
You pretty much summed it up in your own OP. D&D Beyond is not essential to playing D&D if you want to do up your own google doc or what have you and trust or guide your players through character generation. Like any accessory, it provides some players and GMs some benefit. For example, the character generation walkthrough makes things more efficient and does help new players as a map that's clearer than the path laid out in the PHB. So it's not pay to play, it's paying for content you want in this tool set which is not essential to playing D&D, but for a lot of players enhances their game.
Me, I actually have a master tier, and own a lot of content. With that, anyone attached to my campaigns (which could cap at about 36 people, I think that limit was pushed to 60, but not sure where that stands) can use any of the content I've unlocked: sourcebooks, adventures, etc. Basically you furnish players a digital library so no one has to worry about borrowing and losing or spilling Mountain Dew on a book. I'm the "lead Dad" in a group that's got one other experience player, and then a bunch of adults relatively new to the hobby and children largely new to role playing. Especially for the kids, I don't want them to clamor parents for books etc., so for me, the investment is worth it to the group. That said, if I wasn't heading this particular group make up, or didn't have the resources to spend on the level of buy in I've made, I could play D&D without D&D Beyond. As it is now though, it's pretty indispensable to my group and in my opinion money well spent just for the past year alone.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Right now I'm looking at VTTs. Honestly for me blank character sheets I can fill in and upload to a VTT would be pretty much all I want, lol. Even completely blank monster stats for a vtt are preferable to me. In a given gaming session there are going to be at most 5 new creatures or so.
I think the larger issue is that even though I and probably 99% of DM's are not doing it for money - as a DM, players are in a way my "customers". How can I get new or returning players interested in the game with such a large hurdle to overcome to just make a character? In this regard with new players it's really a big hurdle to get new players to even complete a Session 0.
I'm finding it takes me several hours to simply create a character in on Dnd Beyond with this method of creating "Homebrew" content (that are actually official PHB options) while without it would take me an hour at most including multilayered background story.
I think my complaint is that for me a blank sheet (and blank monster stats for a vtt) would probably be better - Today what prompted me to post is that I was trying to create a "homebrew" Tempest Cleric Subclass on DnD Beyond (actually it's the official PHB version) but that required so much extra time and I didn't even do it correctly so the character sheet still shows he's limited to light armor and simple weapons in the left column. Maybe if I invested time to learn how to do it correctly - for each and every official content that is not supported unless I buy the book again - ugh.
On our campaigns we're using DnD Beyond + Roll20 (only free version) and only one of us (we are 8 people, playing in 2 campaigns and only 2 have bought books, so 6 people are using the free version) has a subscription. Thus we can share all the books, which is a huge advantage. basically I'd say that only the DM needs pied content and maybe a subscription, we've been playing for several month without a subscription. With the sub, we can now share the costs and the books and we just don't feel like buying any more paper books in general. I totally get the people that don't like ebooks, but that's not us. The only thing we dislike is, that we don't get the PDFs here, because it's all "in the cloud" (yes offline in the App), but if DnD Beyond shuts down for whatever reason, you lose everything, which is a very valid point to buy the real books or at least the PDFs via DriveThru or so. And the navigation and search, especially within one book, is sometimes pretty bad. I mean, why can't I open one sourcebook/module and search inside this book? Why can't I just flip through the pages like in a PDF, why do I have to use the DnD Beyond navigation? But well, that's what you get for paying less for the books I guess.
And as we're only playing online atm (due to the pandemic, but also living in different cities or even countries), we need the digital material and VTT, because we don't like ToM for battles. And we all really don't like the character sheet and all the macro stuff in Roll20. DnD Beyond is far superior for all character stuff and well, it looks great.
I really have to say: sadly we have to use Roll20 for the battle maps/ambient images, because it just feels outdated and usability is not that great. Haven't tried any other VTT Tool yet and don't feel like switching because it would be a whole lot of work and afaik all other goof VTT tools also cost money and not all of them have a DnD Beyond integration (via Beyond20). So we kinda stick to it but would love to see DnD Beyond going down this road (which they won't in the near future). Because just rolling digital 3D dice over your screen feels kinda stupid (sorry) if you still have to share the result with your group. It's just a little gimmick and really overpriced and should just be for free. I just don't get it, why they even keep bothering developing that stuff, instead for just going the full VTT road. But well it generates money for just repainting some digital content...
To sum this up I'd say, that DnD Beyond offers great possibilities for character&campaign organization tools, having everything digital and being able to share it with your group is great and might even save you a lot of money, especially if you share. And the integration in some VTT systems is also great. If you're just playing IRL, you don't need it though and being old-school with real books and paper character sheets is awesome. But for people that are forced to online gaming, due to various reasons, our group is really thankful for DnD Beyond despite some of the shortcomings.
DnDBeyond is a toolset basically a few things you may not have considered. DnDBeyond sells the tools and pays Wizards of the Coast for the license to put the info in the tools for customers. With that limitation its possible to buy exactly what you want and lower the cost of the whole. So you have the tools for all information that WOTC gives for free (the SRD and the Basic rules) without getting a subscription you can make up to 5 characters completely for free. As long as you are happy with the basic tools and only want 5 characters you can play with no money changing hands. You can also spend a little money to expand a lot what you can play by buying just what you need. You can buy just the pieces you need (say the subclass you want to play for usually $2 or the subrace you want also around $2. The amount you spend will lower the cost of the whole book and lower the cost of the bundles they are a part of.
Your whole group could get one master tier and each person being responsible for their character race and class costs each person would have about $6 cost and add about $8 for the master tier/month. Through sharing you could share the things each person buys.
Fair point, but I really don't get it :)
In our campaigns we started with 4 people that have never played a RPG in their life and 3 people that have never played DnD (out of 8). The character generation with DnD Beyond was so easy for all of them and far easier than having to read a book and flipping back and forth through all the pages. Because everything was there, could be done individually and the DM could always have a look at a character in the camapign, make a video call and maybe discuss some points. Starting with a blank sheet, reading a book (or sevreal books) and filling in the blanks is far more complicated and time consuming, especially for new players.
The far bigger hurdle was the backstory, because all of our characters, even the ones of the new players, has several pages of backstory. The rest is basically just some stats and a digital tool like DnD Beyond just helps with showing you what you can do and what you can't, because you don't have to study the rules. It's just like "you picked X so this automatically gives you Y..." simple. Creating a character takes days, because of the backstory. But filling in the character sheet with DnD Beyond just takes several minutes and is most of the time pretty intuitive, even for totally new players. At least that's what I've experienced.
And even the 2 of the really experienced players (like ~25y RP experience, just not in DnD) where totally amazed by how easy the toolset is.
UncleRay, it sounds like what you really need is a homebrew mentor to get you over the "ugh" hump of pomebrewing content you own in print and don't want to unlock what D&D Beyond has coded. The other cool thing about DDB is the community of users who are generous with advice and tutorials on how to do pretty much everything, including the homebrew situation you find yourself in. No, you're not really "pomebrewing" official content; but either you load up the content yourself so it can be used over and over again, or you manually do the character sheets with your players on a case by case basis. It sort of comes down to cost benefit analysis of time, money and scale. If you see yourself only running one game ever, DDB's probably not worth a heavy investment. My player ten players have made I think around 40-50 characters, and have also been able to read up on monsters and lore as a break from the monotony of COVID lockdowns, so again, it was worth it to me for those benefits and the occasionally cost recoup in pizza or beers being sent to the DM.
Homebrewing, especially official content can be interesting and another layer of learning the game. Sort of analogous to taking apart your cars engine, you get a better sense of how the game works. Again, not essential, but I'd say the product has made me a better DM.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This just basically boils down to paying for convenience. I do not mind paying for convenience, but you do not want to pay for it, and that is fine. Everyone have different priorities and value things differently. Just keep in mind that convenience ultimately is not free, someone made that convenience possible, and they deserve to be compensated for it.
For the sake of argument, a person could just as easily say the same about physical books and see no point in them. A phone takes much less physical space on the table, and most phones these days can multitask seamlessly, so switching between tabs and apps is hardly an issue. With less real estate required, players can play with bigger and fancier battle maps, play over food and drinks if they prefer theater of the mind, or abandon the table altogether and play anywhere they want. During my third or fourth session, I distinctly remember playing in my car while hanging out with my friends because we were bored. Because we had Beyond, no tables were required, and we used an app to roll dice.
The full price of books on D&D Beyond is more than just the information in the books. It comes with the integration of that information with their digital tools, such as character sheets and databases of monsters, spells, items, etc. In my opinion, it is more fair to compare the prices of physical books to just the compendium content/ebook portion of Beyond's books. The physical books do not come with tools of any kind, and they cost around $30 on Amazon. Beyond's fully priced books cost around $30 too, but if you are just after the compendium content and do not care about the digital tools, then it is only $20.
Personally, I like both physical and digital, but I think they are fully justified in charging them separately and not bundle any of it. I do not mind paying twice to buy some games for both my Switch and on Steam. It would be nice if they bundled the games on Switch with Steam, but that is their game and they can charge their products however they like.
This applies to physical books too, and sunk cost is only relevant if a person is making a transition from one platform or medium to another. For a new player, digital offers way more convenience and features than the physical route in my opinion.
I already have the Legendary Bundle on Beyond, so it makes little sense for me to transition to physical. I would even argue that making the transition from digital to physical is even more daunting than the physical to digital transition, since that also means I need to buy office supplies for physical character sheets (pencils, paper, erasers, etc.) and buy suitcases to lug around all the books. Editing you character sheet would also be a bit more annoying and I would also need to do all the calculations myself.
Docs is easier in terms of just filling in text, but if you want it to integrate the rules and calculate things for you, that is going to be more difficult. If you do not mind doing some of the calculations manually, homebrewing via Docs is easier.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Why does everyone the moment this discussion comes up use the same nonsensical talking points/refuse to hear where people who want a subscription to the actual content are coming from? it's all either defending the pretty much useless subscriptions, saying "just buy it and share it duh" or asserting to do the tedious workaround of homebrewing the official content into the game.
This topic keeps coming up because as someone in this thread pointed out, it's a massive commitment money-wise for something that may or may not work out, which is fine if your a veteran but the current system is too commitment heavy for new players, so most barely use DnDbeyond or just use pirated pdfs, a dice roll bot for discord, some other character manager for sheets, etc. I know I'm sure as hell not buying eBooks on beyond anytime soon if ever and frankly not a single player I've met outside of these forums have, not even the DMs I've met and for a time where DnD has never been more popular a lack of a semi money friendly subscription service is just downright odd, DnD is great but unless you have a shitton of expendable income it's too much of a commitment which turns off new players heavily, unless they pirate it in which case WotC isn't making money from them either, ease of access to this stuff even at a monetary cost has evidently decreased pirating, you offer people an easier option they'll take it as long as they think it's fair, steam is the prime example, how they combated piracy was not to just ignore it like WotC but to make the service they offer more convenient than pirating because as long as pirating is still more convenient people will still do it, DnDbeyond can add all the bells and whistles they want but until there is a better way to obtain access to the books/core content online both WotC and DnDbeyond will be losing money to piracy, which is doublely bad because they definitely missed out on a prime opportunity with everyone around the world spending far more time inside than they'd like these days, a lot of people tried playing DnD to fill in the time, very few I've seen stuck with it however, even I haven't, even though I want to find a reason to play/get the books, the price tag of $400 to nearly $1000 is obscene in a time where buying food is even difficult (even without the worldwide pandemic).
Tl;dr people are literally asking for another convenient/ non obscenely committal option that is more beginner friendly, asking to literally give WotC and Beyond their money for that better option but like blockbuster the only option for now, is fork up or put on the skull hat and most who stay to play pick the latter.
Because people keep ignoring reality and assert their own fantasy of how a business should be run and what prices they should charge. Not all businesses are the same, and pricing models that work for one business or industry is not going to work for another.
What a lot of these people do not realize is that they are essentially asking Wizards and Beyond to go **** themselves and work for little to no pay. What these people are doing is basically the same as going to a restaurant demanding that they sell their food for less because they cannot afford to pay full price, and then they argue about how they can eat as much as they want at a buffet down the street by paying only once. Not every restaurant can be run like a buffet, and that is not how business works.
D&D can already be played for FREE. You do NOT need any of the paid books to play. If you cannot afford the official stuff, there are a ton of homebrew content out there that are available for free or for a very low price. You can also just ask people nicely on the forums if they can join your campaign so they can create a character for you to claim.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Bout as aggressive and unreasonable of a response as I expected, why'd I even try.
Your restaurant analogy doesn't work either btw, you can't pirate a steak and have it forever can you? [REDACTED] So you can then claim I have a wild fantasy about how businesses are run and imply I'm somehow an idiot for merely saying that people who choose to pirate said content aren't giving them money anyway unless they where given a better alt, which precedent shows combating piracy though offering a better alterative reduces it but hey according to your illustrious business acumen, steam is apparently working for little to no pay and with subscription based services that work in spite of your assertion/knee jerk response, Xcloud is doing spectacularly. If this was a fair discussion and not mud flinging, I'd say comparing Xcloud to DnD beyond s not a fair comparison but it's far closer than a restaurant so it's fair lmao.
And lastly I didn't demand anything, not sure where you pulled that from [REDACTED]
I'm starting a new campaign with new players and they've more or less got the hang of it. They've got a veteran DM and myself and one other who are experienced with DnDBeyond - it just takes time and patience; they've already caught on very quick as the character sheet is very intuitive.
You're absolutely right that it is a financial commitment but that's always a personal choice - I've found it to be well worth what I've paid as having the digital tools accessible has greatly increased the enjoyments and logistic handling of any games I've played. Having the subscription also benefits those that can't afford it, or you have a system where players 'donate' to the subscriber. Whichever is more helpful to the group.
Just my personal experience of course and I can't speak for everybody.
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
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I guess I can see that and I'm glad you took my comment at face value and didn't just go full strawman on me like the other guy, maybe I just haven't found a group that makes that sort of commitment seem worth it or any DM who has made said commitment themselves, just wish I could go over the books without pirating them (which I haven't) cause of how much blood, sweat and passion must have went into making them and cause of covid and the lockdowns my partner and I don't have any expendable income to actually purchase them lump sum like they are rn but it would have been nice to play, just most groups I've found expect players to know a bunch of martial which we can't buy :/
I don't know where you're located, but see if you can borrow the books through your local public library. Even if they don't have them, they might be able to get them on interlibrary loan. My local library has a good number of the books, and I did that when I was first starting out.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
The person saying its a massive commitment isn't really being fair. Most players can buy the tools they need for $10 to $15 to play a single game. A dungeon master maybe $25.
The complaints always assume the new player is buying whole books but there is no need to that. Just buy your background, subrace and subclass.
I was not trying to be aggressive, but I have been extremely annoyed. I see these kinds of attitudes on here almost every other week, and with the economy opening back up, I am beginning to notice how absolutely awful some customers can be in real life too.
There is a whole post on this subject explaining why pricings do not work the way some people want them to, yet some people keep asking and demanding no matter how unreasonable it is.
Stealing trade secrets, in this case if a steak recipe is critical to success of a business, is a crime. Stealing the actual product itself is often referred to as dine and dash.
Some potential customers are simply not worth the cost to cater to nor serve. A business would lose money if they try to serve every potential customer regardless of cost.
I went to school for accounting and I have 2 years of experience in bookkeeping. My business acumen is definitely no where near illustrious, but I know enough that running a small business is neither cheap nor easy, and I consider costs and obstacles that a lay person normally would not even think about.
As I have said previously, a revenue model that works for one business or industry does not necessarily mean that it would work for another business or industry.
Steam and Xcloud are massive distribution platforms with overwhelming power over customers and other business partners. Beyond is under the thumb of Wizards, and Beyond does not seem to have much support from Fandom. Additionally, if the videogame industry is the size of the United States ($78 billion in 2017), the TTRPG industry would be about the size of Delaware ($35 million in 2017). You cannot realistically expect a business the size of Beyond in the tiny TTRPG industry to be able to compete on pricing against massive giants in the vast videogame industry. For every dollar the TTRPG industry gets, the videogame industry gets over two thousand times that amount, and can plough those extra profits back into the business, make operations more efficient, and pass on those savings to customers.
You claimed you wanted to play D&D but balked at the price tag for all the official books, so I mentioned playing D&D for free. Most people do NOT buy every book, and some do not even buy a single book; in my group, I shouldered almost the entire cost of the hobby, and none of my players spent a dime on Beyond.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >