I kinda glossed over it the first time, but trap = combat makes no sense either. Falling into a pit in the dungeon corridor doesn't mean you are now fighting the pit
A statement along the lines of "You can get further with a smile than a sword" doesn't imply environmental challenges, it implies social challenges. HP are for dealing with physical challenges (includes but not limited to combat).
If we're talking about the Feywild, social challenges could also be environmental challenges
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Like I said, you can already do that kind of thing with ASI-based features. Psi Warrior X/1 Peace Cleric doesn't even break my top 5 dumb OP builds. Paladin X/Hexblade 1, Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter, and Expertise + Rage grappling builds are all far more gamebreaking without ever touching a feature that scales with PB, and one of those doesn't even require multiclassing.
Currently it isn’t too terrible. The features they have made they were exceedingly careful to make sure either had checks and balances (more uses but the die stays the same size or example) or didn’t come in until levels 11(ish)+ so it wasn’t a “dip” issue. Yes. They were pretty careful so far…. Although as Dennis pointed out, they had varying degrees of success. But if they keep using that mechanic, one more round of additional subclasses, maybe two and and they’ll release some Frankenstein’s Nightmare or shistuff that’ll all glom together to make Paladin X/Hexblade 1 look like a fuzzy fog act for the circus.
I wasn’t worried about something tied to an ASI that could potentially be baller at 1st level. We play with rolled stats, it’s a recreational hazard. But the potential for a Sir Dipsalot to come along and get a whole wackton of features like hat all get better with PB and they simply just grab 1-3 levels in a bunch of stuff. It would be like the Sliver deck of d&d. Eff that noise.
Peace Cleric is ridiculous, but not because of some of the abilities keying off of proficiency bonus. Extending the benefit to an extra target or two or getting to use an ability a bit more often based on cleric level instead would still be ridiculous. I get the sensibilities about having a class-based system using abilities that break that mould; heck, I share them to an extent. But with the Peace Cleric I’d think the abilities were silly even if they never improved at all.
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Have you ever seen an Artillerist Artificer? Because spamming 1d8 + INT temp HP to the party every round for an hour definitely beats 1 level in cleric. Fairly sure a Moon Druid will out-tank that fighter too.
Being able to heal yourself makes you a one man army.
There’s 6 classes that can heal themselves, and a couple more that can if they pick the right subclass or get an optional class feature. It’s not all that unusual, really.
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Being able to heal yourself makes you a one man army.
There’s 6 classes that can heal themselves, and a couple more that can if they pick the right subclass or get an optional class feature. It’s not all that unusual, really.
I was going to say the same thing. A 4th level character that can cast a first level heal on itself twice per long rest is not very op.
So what is it about this Fighter3/cleric1 that makes it op?
Being able to heal yourself makes you a one man army. It pretty much turns you into a Paladin with no Oath.
I was specifically looking for how the Psi Warrior/Peace Cleric Combo broke the game. I keep looking, but I just don't see it. You can basically cast a once per turn Bless on your party. It is a nice ability, but I don't see how combining that with Psi Warrior some how makes it powerful.
That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
So, you're complaining about a hypothetical situation where eventually there will be subclasses for every class that have initial PB-based features that you could potentially stack up, and you think this will somehow "push the meta" to make that a common practice rather than a 10-class build being something no DM in their right mind would allow at their table?
I mean, tilt away at that windmill I guess, but I don't think the problem there is the PB-based features...
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So your claim that "Poison = Combat" is just a lie.
Lie is a very strong word. He could simply think of it that way. Likewise HP's.
It might not be an intentional lie, but a lie none the less. Especially since multiple people explained the difference. And sure, they can think of poison and HPs that way but it still wrong.
That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
I get that it's a concern. The reason I'm pushing back on that as hard as I am is that it seems completely hypothetical so far and because people have already been breaking the game in all sorts of stupid ways well before the devs started experimenting with PB. But I'm guessing you don't ban feats just because some of them are clearly broken, or all multiclassing just because some builds are crazy OP. Hell, the grappling and shoving rules are broken and that's part of the core rules.
Why not just veto the stupidly overpowered 10 class PB build when it finally appears in a real game and let the normal players enjoy perfectly reasonable subclasses in the meantime?
That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
I get that it's a concern. The reason I'm pushing back on that as hard as I am is that it seems completely hypothetical so far and because people have already been breaking the game in all sorts of stupid ways well before the devs started experimenting with PB. But I'm guessing you don't ban feats just because some of them are clearly broken, or all multiclassing just because some builds are crazy OP. Hell, the grappling and shoving rules are broken and that's part of the core rules.
Why not just veto the stupidly overpowered 10 class PB build when it finally appears in a real game and let the normal players enjoy perfectly reasonable subclasses in the meantime?
The only things I feel is reasonable to modify as a DM (but ultimately allow after some adjustments) is the following:
1. Racial Flight- People say this isn't a big deal but I just disagree. Pretty much any module/adventure book has a LOT of encounters that just do not have racial flight in mind...and the fact you have to have it in mind for literally every fight is just a bit frustrating and I completely get DM's/AL banning this. Ultimately I just say "no thanks" to flying races.
2. Twilight Cleric- fixing the CD is about the only thing needed here as the free nature of the THP is just egregious and likely should at least cost a bonus action or reaction to proc.
3. Peace Cleric- Granted this one takes the cleric actually trying to cheese the ability to the limit but if it happens I would likely shut it down....the ol Bless plus Emboldening Bond is hella crazy for T1 and T2....2d4 to attacks and saves does absolutely break bounded accuracy. This one is slightly less problematic for me because the player has to actively choose to use both...and its pretty obvious what they are doing then. I would say you could have one or the other up.
4. Conjure spells- Summoning 8 things is always the best option regardless of what the DM lets you have...bar none. Even if the 8 creatures are just running around handing out help actions. Animate Objects is just objectively broken as a 5th level spell for the damage it puts out and the action economy around it (BA to command). For these spells I allow 1-2 creatures to be made maximum OR you can just take the summon spells from Tasha's as the are just much better.
Beyond this I have yet to find something in the game that is untenable.
That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
I get that it's a concern. The reason I'm pushing back on that as hard as I am is that it seems completely hypothetical so far and because people have already been breaking the game in all sorts of stupid ways well before the devs started experimenting with PB. But I'm guessing you don't ban feats just because some of them are clearly broken, or all multiclassing just because some builds are crazy OP. Hell, the grappling and shoving rules are broken and that's part of the core rules.
Why not just veto the stupidly overpowered 10 class PB build when it finally appears in a real game and let the normal players enjoy perfectly reasonable subclasses in the meantime?
Yeah. That's part of why I don't get it. The game already has broken things that some powergamers will go for, and dms can ban the blatantly broken things. The same is the case here.
It's like when people complain about the flexibility in racial asis with Tashas. Okay sure, now you can say, have an elf get a +2 to strength and be a better barbarian or fighter. So? All that does it put them on the same playing field as say, an elven rogue or ranger, a half elf paladin, a tiefling warlock etc.
If you get someone trying to be Abserd but powerful with dipping into tons of classes, then ban that at your table. Just as you can currently ban things like hexblade paladin if you like. But I don't see the concept of PB scaling in and of itself as being inherently broken just because they 'might' make more subclasses in the future that are broken in multiclassing because of it. The example of 10 classes was probably hyperbole to make a point, but would also quickly start running into requirement issues unless you rolled for stats and got lucky enough to have 13+ in everything you need. If it's a point buy character you could make it work but then wouldn't have any particularly high stats.
That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
I get that it's a concern. The reason I'm pushing back on that as hard as I am is that it seems completely hypothetical so far and because people have already been breaking the game in all sorts of stupid ways well before the devs started experimenting with PB. But I'm guessing you don't ban feats just because some of them are clearly broken, or all multiclassing just because some builds are crazy OP. Hell, the grappling and shoving rules are broken and that's part of the core rules.
Why not just veto the stupidly overpowered 10 class PB build when it finally appears in a real game and let the normal players enjoy perfectly reasonable subclasses in the meantime?
Yeah. That's part of why I don't get it. The game already has broken things that some powergamers will go for, and dms can ban the blatantly broken things. The same is the case here.
It's like when people complain about the flexibility in racial asis with Tashas. Okay sure, now you can say, have an elf get a +2 to strength and be a better barbarian or fighter. So? All that does it put them on the same playing field as say, an elven rogue or ranger, a half elf paladin, a tiefling warlock etc.
If you get someone trying to be Abserd but powerful with dipping into tons of classes, then ban that at your table. Just as you can currently ban things like hexblade paladin if you like. But I don't see the concept of PB scaling in and of itself as being inherently broken just because they 'might' make more subclasses in the future that are broken in multiclassing because of it. The example of 10 classes was probably hyperbole to make a point, but would also quickly start running into requirement issues unless you rolled for stats and got lucky enough to have 13+ in everything you need. If it's a point buy character you could make it work but then wouldn't have any particularly high stats.
Getting off-topic, but a lot of people who dislike’s Tasha’s racial flexibility do so because they think it erodes racial identity too much, not because of perceived powergaming issues. As for multiclassing requirements, 13+ in three stats (which you have with the standard array regardless of racial bonuses) suffices for 9 of the classes that currently exist (pick Dex, Wis & Cha). Not disagreeing with the general points, but the arguments used are a bit flaky.
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Anything that makes the game easier for the players is bad idea. Any PB focused feature falls into that category.
Tasha's is riddled with new buffs to classes and subclasses with zero tradeoffs, just a straight gift.
I am so sick of the "the game must be easier for me to have fun" crowd.
Some of us actually LOVE playing within a set of restrictive set of rules, not opening the floodgates like Tasha's did. Not nearly enough of us, but some. We recognize that playing a harder game actually takes MORE creativity to accomplish something, and a mastery of the actual rules. And when something is accomplished in such a game, it is way more satisfying, and lasting.
But no, WOTC said, "tell you what, we will soften all the restrictions, by giving you way more stuff your classes can do. There are the cheat codes in Tashas, so buy the book."
Sounds more like you as a DM can't be creative and inventive enough rather than the players being too powerful (which they aren't). Like Kotath mentioned, it's not the DM vs the players and the DM can always throw whatever they want at the players.
That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
I can understand where you are coming from, but I guess I just don't see the same problem you do. Multi-classing comes with it's own drawbacks that can't be addressed by PB features the biggest of which is Spell progression but Extra Attacks, ASI's and features that aren't gained till higher levels are also a factor. It may be the Pandora's Box you believe it to be, but I am just not so sure about it. Only time will tell.
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If we're talking about the Feywild, social challenges could also be environmental challenges
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Like I said, you can already do that kind of thing with ASI-based features. Psi Warrior X/1 Peace Cleric doesn't even break my top 5 dumb OP builds. Paladin X/Hexblade 1, Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter, and Expertise + Rage grappling builds are all far more gamebreaking without ever touching a feature that scales with PB, and one of those doesn't even require multiclassing.
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Currently it isn’t too terrible. The features they have made they were exceedingly careful to make sure either had checks and balances (more uses but the die stays the same size or example) or didn’t come in until levels 11(ish)+ so it wasn’t a “dip” issue. Yes. They were pretty careful so far…. Although as Dennis pointed out, they had varying degrees of success. But if they keep using that mechanic, one more round of additional subclasses, maybe two and and they’ll release some Frankenstein’s Nightmare or
shistuff that’ll all glom together to make Paladin X/Hexblade 1 look like a fuzzy fog act for the circus.I wasn’t worried about something tied to an ASI that could potentially be baller at 1st level. We play with rolled stats, it’s a recreational hazard. But the potential for a Sir Dipsalot to come along and get a whole wackton of features like hat all get better with PB and they simply just grab 1-3 levels in a bunch of stuff. It would be like the Sliver deck of d&d. Eff that noise.
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Peace Cleric is ridiculous, but not because of some of the abilities keying off of proficiency bonus. Extending the benefit to an extra target or two or getting to use an ability a bit more often based on cleric level instead would still be ridiculous. I get the sensibilities about having a class-based system using abilities that break that mould; heck, I share them to an extent. But with the Peace Cleric I’d think the abilities were silly even if they never improved at all.
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So what is it about this Fighter3/cleric1 that makes it op?
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So what is it about this Fighter3/cleric1 that makes it op?
Being able to heal yourself makes you a one man army. It pretty much turns you into a Paladin with no Oath.
<Insert clever signature here>
Have you ever seen an Artillerist Artificer? Because spamming 1d8 + INT temp HP to the party every round for an hour definitely beats 1 level in cleric. Fairly sure a Moon Druid will out-tank that fighter too.
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There’s 6 classes that can heal themselves, and a couple more that can if they pick the right subclass or get an optional class feature. It’s not all that unusual, really.
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I was going to say the same thing. A 4th level character that can cast a first level heal on itself twice per long rest is not very op.
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I was specifically looking for how the Psi Warrior/Peace Cleric Combo broke the game. I keep looking, but I just don't see it. You can basically cast a once per turn Bless on your party. It is a nice ability, but I don't see how combining that with Psi Warrior some how makes it powerful.
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That combo specifically doesn’t make it more powerful. But the fact that if they keep producing subclasses that use that metric it’ll inevitably create the situation where 1-3 levels in 10 different classes to gobble up those features will eventually be the thing that pushes the meta. It’s inevitable and it’s lame.
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So, you're complaining about a hypothetical situation where eventually there will be subclasses for every class that have initial PB-based features that you could potentially stack up, and you think this will somehow "push the meta" to make that a common practice rather than a 10-class build being something no DM in their right mind would allow at their table?
I mean, tilt away at that windmill I guess, but I don't think the problem there is the PB-based features...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It might not be an intentional lie, but a lie none the less. Especially since multiple people explained the difference. And sure, they can think of poison and HPs that way but it still wrong.
I get that it's a concern. The reason I'm pushing back on that as hard as I am is that it seems completely hypothetical so far and because people have already been breaking the game in all sorts of stupid ways well before the devs started experimenting with PB. But I'm guessing you don't ban feats just because some of them are clearly broken, or all multiclassing just because some builds are crazy OP. Hell, the grappling and shoving rules are broken and that's part of the core rules.
Why not just veto the stupidly overpowered 10 class PB build when it finally appears in a real game and let the normal players enjoy perfectly reasonable subclasses in the meantime?
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The only things I feel is reasonable to modify as a DM (but ultimately allow after some adjustments) is the following:
1. Racial Flight- People say this isn't a big deal but I just disagree. Pretty much any module/adventure book has a LOT of encounters that just do not have racial flight in mind...and the fact you have to have it in mind for literally every fight is just a bit frustrating and I completely get DM's/AL banning this. Ultimately I just say "no thanks" to flying races.
2. Twilight Cleric- fixing the CD is about the only thing needed here as the free nature of the THP is just egregious and likely should at least cost a bonus action or reaction to proc.
3. Peace Cleric- Granted this one takes the cleric actually trying to cheese the ability to the limit but if it happens I would likely shut it down....the ol Bless plus Emboldening Bond is hella crazy for T1 and T2....2d4 to attacks and saves does absolutely break bounded accuracy. This one is slightly less problematic for me because the player has to actively choose to use both...and its pretty obvious what they are doing then. I would say you could have one or the other up.
4. Conjure spells- Summoning 8 things is always the best option regardless of what the DM lets you have...bar none. Even if the 8 creatures are just running around handing out help actions. Animate Objects is just objectively broken as a 5th level spell for the damage it puts out and the action economy around it (BA to command). For these spells I allow 1-2 creatures to be made maximum OR you can just take the summon spells from Tasha's as the are just much better.
Beyond this I have yet to find something in the game that is untenable.
Yeah. That's part of why I don't get it. The game already has broken things that some powergamers will go for, and dms can ban the blatantly broken things. The same is the case here.
It's like when people complain about the flexibility in racial asis with Tashas. Okay sure, now you can say, have an elf get a +2 to strength and be a better barbarian or fighter. So? All that does it put them on the same playing field as say, an elven rogue or ranger, a half elf paladin, a tiefling warlock etc.
If you get someone trying to be Abserd but powerful with dipping into tons of classes, then ban that at your table. Just as you can currently ban things like hexblade paladin if you like. But I don't see the concept of PB scaling in and of itself as being inherently broken just because they 'might' make more subclasses in the future that are broken in multiclassing because of it. The example of 10 classes was probably hyperbole to make a point, but would also quickly start running into requirement issues unless you rolled for stats and got lucky enough to have 13+ in everything you need. If it's a point buy character you could make it work but then wouldn't have any particularly high stats.
Getting off-topic, but a lot of people who dislike’s Tasha’s racial flexibility do so because they think it erodes racial identity too much, not because of perceived powergaming issues. As for multiclassing requirements, 13+ in three stats (which you have with the standard array regardless of racial bonuses) suffices for 9 of the classes that currently exist (pick Dex, Wis & Cha). Not disagreeing with the general points, but the arguments used are a bit flaky.
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Sounds more like you as a DM can't be creative and inventive enough rather than the players being too powerful (which they aren't). Like Kotath mentioned, it's not the DM vs the players and the DM can always throw whatever they want at the players.
So much déja vu.
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I can understand where you are coming from, but I guess I just don't see the same problem you do. Multi-classing comes with it's own drawbacks that can't be addressed by PB features the biggest of which is Spell progression but Extra Attacks, ASI's and features that aren't gained till higher levels are also a factor. It may be the Pandora's Box you believe it to be, but I am just not so sure about it. Only time will tell.
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