I feel that the Prosthetic Limb might be more of a “based on interpretation” kind of ruling for the purposes of being effected by HM.
For me personally, that fact that it is meant to function exactly like your missing limb when attached, this tells me that it ceases being an object and instead become a physical part of the creature like a real limb, and creatures can’t be targeted. When it’s not attached, then it’s an object.
That would just be my view on it though.
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Huh. iconarising's right. Prosthetic Limbs are actually an established magical item from the Eberron book. They exist. So, yeah. They definitely are treated as a separate magical equipment, to the point that you need to use an Attunement slot on it.
The description calls it a magical item, even after its attached, and all magic items are objects.
Huh. iconarising's right. Prosthetic Limbs are actually an established magical item from the Eberron book. They exist. So, yeah. They definitely are treated as a separate magical equipment, to the point that you need to use an Attunement slot on it.
The description calls it a magical item, even after its attached, and all magic items are objects.
Prosthetic Limb does not need attunement any more - but yes it is considered equipment.
That said - a prosthetic doesn't necessarily have to be metal - and who says any metal parts (if it has some) even touch the person wearing them.
The helmed horror is still a construct, therefore a creature and therefore not an object, so immune, at least from heat metal being cast directly upon them. A normal human has no specific racial immunity to said spell either, yet is immune to it being cast directly upon them.
The helmed horror is listed as having AC 20 (Plate, Shield), and is therefore wearing armor. If it was AC 20 (Natural Armor, Shield) it would be immune.
The helmed horror is still a construct, therefore a creature and therefore not an object, so immune, at least from heat metal being cast directly upon them. A normal human has no specific racial immunity to said spell either, yet is immune to it being cast directly upon them.
The helmed horror is listed as having AC 20 (Plate, Shield), and is therefore wearing armor. If it was AC 20 (Natural Armor, Shield) it would be immune.
Just asking though, what is wearing said armor? It is described as empty. I think the designation is because it is plate, not because it’s wearing plate. The rules for AC only tell us how it’s calculated, not if the creature is considered to be ”wearing” the armor or is the armor. (A distinction that only really applies to the animated armor and the helmed horror). The HH can be targeted via its weapon and shield though
Reborn have 2 types. Undead I can see being Frankenstein’s monster or a flesh golem. But construct? I picture robocop.
Frankenstein's monster is literally constructed from various body parts and brought to life by science. It's very much not an undead and very much a construct.
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If you want to set it up so that constructs take automatic for-free damage from Heat Metal because "they're made of metal, it just makes sense!" and you want to punish players using prosthetics or playing warforged/other constructs for daring to run something other than a basic bog-standard Meat Man? Then any metal object you cast Heat Metal on is destroyed when you do so, because the object itself is now taking damage and no weapon or piece of armor has over eighty HP. You are no longer allowed to loot or salvage anything you target with heat Metal because the spell warps and destroys anything it targets. Which, in turn, means that when enemy spellcasters begin targeting you with Heat Metal, your weapons and armor are destroyed as well. And believe you me, there will start being enemy spellcasters with Heat Metal if you try to tell me that you're pushing for Heat Metal to be 20d8 save-free damage at will whenever you like to anyone using prosthetics, combat wheelchairs, or who is of a meat-free species.
Your friends in platemail will not be happy with you, nor your warforged buddy who's basically been put on notice that his life is measured in days at best. That's the sort of thing that happens when you try to jank the DM for the purposes of just getting a bunch of free damage, rather than for the purposes of making the game better. The DM can always out-jank the players. So don't try.
The helmed horror is still a construct, therefore a creature and therefore not an object, so immune, at least from heat metal being cast directly upon them. A normal human has no specific racial immunity to said spell either, yet is immune to it being cast directly upon them.
The helmed horror is listed as having AC 20 (Plate, Shield), and is therefore wearing armor. If it was AC 20 (Natural Armor, Shield) it would be immune.
Agreed.
The description of Helmed Horror also lists a curious tidbit - "Spell Immunity. The helmed horror is immune to three spells chosen by its creator. Typical immunities include fireball, heat metal, and lightning bolt." This implies that, should DM pick other spells to be immune to, the helmed horror would be affected by heat metal.
The helmed horror is still a construct, therefore a creature and therefore not an object, so immune, at least from heat metal being cast directly upon them. A normal human has no specific racial immunity to said spell either, yet is immune to it being cast directly upon them.
The helmed horror is listed as having AC 20 (Plate, Shield), and is therefore wearing armor. If it was AC 20 (Natural Armor, Shield) it would be immune.
Agreed.
The description of Helmed Horror also lists a curious tidbit - "Spell Immunity. The helmed horror is immune to three spells chosen by its creator. Typical immunities include fireball, heat metal, and lightning bolt." This implies that, should DM pick other spells to be immune to, the helmed horror would be affected by heat metal.
Yes, because they're equipped with metal armor and weapons. Not because they're made of metal themselves.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you want to set it up so that constructs take automatic for-free damage from Heat Metal because "they're made of metal, it just makes sense!" and you want to punish players using prosthetics or playing warforged/other constructs for daring to run something other than a basic bog-standard Meat Man? Then any metal object you cast Heat Metal on is destroyed when you do so, because the object itself is now taking damage and no weapon or piece of armor has over eighty HP. You are no longer allowed to loot or salvage anything you target with heat Metal because the spell warps and destroys anything it targets. Which, in turn, means that when enemy spellcasters begin targeting you with Heat Metal, your weapons and armor are destroyed as well. And believe you me, there will start being enemy spellcasters with Heat Metal if you try to tell me that you're pushing for Heat Metal to be 20d8 save-free damage at will whenever you like to anyone using prosthetics, combat wheelchairs, or who is of a meat-free species.
Your friends in platemail will not be happy with you, nor your warforged buddy who's basically been put on notice that his life is measured in days at best. That's the sort of thing that happens when you try to jank the DM for the purposes of just getting a bunch of free damage, rather than for the purposes of making the game better. The DM can always out-jank the players. So don't try.
With all due respect, I think that there's another reason for this. Internal consistency is important when it comes to stories, so this is possibly an attempt to actually make the game better through internal consistency and not game logic. The poster already seemed to find the idea that, since heat metal doesn't damage armor, it shouldn't damage the construct to be reasonable in an above post.
As for it being used to make something unusable? Well, lets be fair. Its a Concentration spell that's usually only good against one foe - Hold Person cast as the same level is just as troublesome from both a DM-player perspective, if not more so. And has the same solution. GANK THE CASTER. And Mending is a cantrip for goodness sake, easily reversing damage.
A question on this, if I may. Isn't a Helmed Horror a floating BP, Helm, Sword and Shield? If so, heating these items wouldn't necessarily affect anything because they are being manipulated by magical energy, which should be immune to the effect. In contrast, a Fire Bolt or similar spell, targets the collection of bits, dealing damage to the bits.
In either case, I believe Yurei's assessment is about right. If Heat Metal can damage a creature MDE of metal, it must, therefore damage the metal, meaning when the enemies use it, the item they target is damaged. Spells are an all or nothing thing, so if YOU want the spell to do something, make sure you're ready to have that same effect on YOU when the enemies cast it. All the while, keeping in mind the enemies are under no restrictions you may face, as the DM controls what they can do and what affects them.
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The helmed horror is still a construct, therefore a creature and therefore not an object, so immune, at least from heat metal being cast directly upon them. A normal human has no specific racial immunity to said spell either, yet is immune to it being cast directly upon them.
The helmed horror is listed as having AC 20 (Plate, Shield), and is therefore wearing armor. If it was AC 20 (Natural Armor, Shield) it would be immune.
Agreed.
The description of Helmed Horror also lists a curious tidbit - "Spell Immunity. The helmed horror is immune to three spells chosen by its creator. Typical immunities include fireball, heat metal, and lightning bolt." This implies that, should DM pick other spells to be immune to, the helmed horror would be affected by heat metal.
1) Yes, because they're equipped with metal armor and weapons. Not because they're made of metal themselves.
2) Exactly. They have immunities by virtue of being a creature and not an object that have nothing to do with the specific immunities of being a Helmed Horror.
What? I don't really follow the logic here.
1) This would imply that Spell Immunity: Heat Metal means their weapons can still be caused to glow red-hot but doing so doesn't hurt them even if they hold on to those weapons? That seems weird. I'd sooner assume a mistake by the designer of the Helmed Horror or a transference of this Spell Immunity onto their equipment (which should have been specified then) than this contrived sort of reasoning.
2) If they have immunities by virtue of being a creature (which is correct) then Spell Immunity: Heat Metal as written does nothing for them.
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A question on this, if I may. Isn't a Helmed Horror a floating BP, Helm, Sword and Shield? If so, heating these items wouldn't necessarily affect anything because they are being manipulated by magical energy, which should be immune to the effect. In contrast, a Fire Bolt or similar spell, targets the collection of bits, dealing damage to the bits.
In either case, I believe Yurei's assessment is about right. If Heat Metal can damage a creature MDE of metal, it must, therefore damage the metal, meaning when the enemies use it, the item they target is damaged. Spells are an all or nothing thing, so if YOU want the spell to do something, make sure you're ready to have that same effect on YOU when the enemies cast it. All the while, keeping in mind the enemies are under no restrictions you may face, as the DM controls what they can do and what affects them.
Well, it is weird, because helmed horrors were basically animated armor in the past. You can see this especially since they only take full damage from magic and adamantine weapons. Traditionally, adamantine weapons were used to bypass construct DR. If you were hitting something under the armor, you wouldn't be using adamantine.
Honestly, they're basically just a stronger version of Animated Armor from a lore perspective, but their stat block doesn't really back it up. Its a bit odd, but the game is full of odd little bits and bobs like that.
Its weird because we're talking about Helmed Horrors who specifically CAN be targeted by Heat Metal if you remove the spell immunity to Heat Metal. The HH stat block seems to show that they're wearing armor and a shield, not that they are an armor-based golem.
Your answer is weird because it has nothing to do with the conversation you're quoting.
1) Why would that be weird? If it was an iron golem holding the weapon, the weapon heats up and the golem is healed by the heat 'damage,' because that is a property of iron golems. Welcome to magic.
Yes, but that's heat working exactly like heat always does. The heat not affecting the Helmed Horror because of spell immunity means similar heat from any other source than Heat Metal still affects them. Which is kind of weird - that makes the heat part of the spell, rather than the result.
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Its weird because we're talking about Helmed Horrors who specifically CAN be targeted by Heat Metal if you remove the spell immunity to Heat Metal. The HH stat block seems to show that they're wearing armor and a shield, not that they are an armor-based golem.
Your answer is weird because it has nothing to do with the conversation you're quoting.
No, it can't be specifically targeted any more than a human wearing metal armor can be specifically targeted. What you can target is the armor that it's wearing, but the Helmed Horror will just stand there and be unaffected: no damage or other penalties. Whereas the human will be doing their best impression of a Pop Tart.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
No they can not. The heat metal spell says they cannot. They are creatures not objects and heat metal only can target objects. That is nothing whatsoever to do with the specific immunities that Helmed Horrors can be built with.
Yes, but helmed horrors are in fact wearing armor, which can be targeted, whereas animated armor is not wearing armor. Which is almost certainly sloppy wording rather than intended, but as written, the helmed horror's armor can be targeted, and unless it has an immunity, the horror will suffer normal effects from having its armor heated.
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I feel that the Prosthetic Limb might be more of a “based on interpretation” kind of ruling for the purposes of being effected by HM.
For me personally, that fact that it is meant to function exactly like your missing limb when attached, this tells me that it ceases being an object and instead become a physical part of the creature like a real limb, and creatures can’t be targeted. When it’s not attached, then it’s an object.
That would just be my view on it though.
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Huh. iconarising's right. Prosthetic Limbs are actually an established magical item from the Eberron book. They exist. So, yeah. They definitely are treated as a separate magical equipment, to the point that you need to use an Attunement slot on it.
The description calls it a magical item, even after its attached, and all magic items are objects.
Prosthetic Limb does not need attunement any more - but yes it is considered equipment.
That said - a prosthetic doesn't necessarily have to be metal - and who says any metal parts (if it has some) even touch the person wearing them.
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Reborn have 2 types. Undead I can see being Frankenstein’s monster or a flesh golem. But construct? I picture robocop.
The helmed horror is listed as having AC 20 (Plate, Shield), and is therefore wearing armor. If it was AC 20 (Natural Armor, Shield) it would be immune.
Just asking though, what is wearing said armor? It is described as empty. I think the designation is because it is plate, not because it’s wearing plate. The rules for AC only tell us how it’s calculated, not if the creature is considered to be ”wearing” the armor or is the armor. (A distinction that only really applies to the animated armor and the helmed horror). The HH can be targeted via its weapon and shield though
Frankenstein's monster is literally constructed from various body parts and brought to life by science. It's very much not an undead and very much a construct.
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Flesh golems are constructs not undead
Lemme put it this way.
If you want to set it up so that constructs take automatic for-free damage from Heat Metal because "they're made of metal, it just makes sense!" and you want to punish players using prosthetics or playing warforged/other constructs for daring to run something other than a basic bog-standard Meat Man? Then any metal object you cast Heat Metal on is destroyed when you do so, because the object itself is now taking damage and no weapon or piece of armor has over eighty HP. You are no longer allowed to loot or salvage anything you target with heat Metal because the spell warps and destroys anything it targets. Which, in turn, means that when enemy spellcasters begin targeting you with Heat Metal, your weapons and armor are destroyed as well. And believe you me, there will start being enemy spellcasters with Heat Metal if you try to tell me that you're pushing for Heat Metal to be 20d8 save-free damage at will whenever you like to anyone using prosthetics, combat wheelchairs, or who is of a meat-free species.
Your friends in platemail will not be happy with you, nor your warforged buddy who's basically been put on notice that his life is measured in days at best. That's the sort of thing that happens when you try to jank the DM for the purposes of just getting a bunch of free damage, rather than for the purposes of making the game better. The DM can always out-jank the players. So don't try.
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Yeah, people keep forgetting that if the party can do it, so can the enemy.
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Agreed.
The description of Helmed Horror also lists a curious tidbit - "Spell Immunity. The helmed horror is immune to three spells chosen by its creator. Typical immunities include fireball, heat metal, and lightning bolt." This implies that, should DM pick other spells to be immune to, the helmed horror would be affected by heat metal.
Yes, because they're equipped with metal armor and weapons. Not because they're made of metal themselves.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
With all due respect, I think that there's another reason for this. Internal consistency is important when it comes to stories, so this is possibly an attempt to actually make the game better through internal consistency and not game logic. The poster already seemed to find the idea that, since heat metal doesn't damage armor, it shouldn't damage the construct to be reasonable in an above post.
As for it being used to make something unusable? Well, lets be fair. Its a Concentration spell that's usually only good against one foe - Hold Person cast as the same level is just as troublesome from both a DM-player perspective, if not more so. And has the same solution. GANK THE CASTER. And Mending is a cantrip for goodness sake, easily reversing damage.
A question on this, if I may. Isn't a Helmed Horror a floating BP, Helm, Sword and Shield? If so, heating these items wouldn't necessarily affect anything because they are being manipulated by magical energy, which should be immune to the effect. In contrast, a Fire Bolt or similar spell, targets the collection of bits, dealing damage to the bits.
In either case, I believe Yurei's assessment is about right. If Heat Metal can damage a creature MDE of metal, it must, therefore damage the metal, meaning when the enemies use it, the item they target is damaged. Spells are an all or nothing thing, so if YOU want the spell to do something, make sure you're ready to have that same effect on YOU when the enemies cast it. All the while, keeping in mind the enemies are under no restrictions you may face, as the DM controls what they can do and what affects them.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
What? I don't really follow the logic here.
1) This would imply that Spell Immunity: Heat Metal means their weapons can still be caused to glow red-hot but doing so doesn't hurt them even if they hold on to those weapons? That seems weird. I'd sooner assume a mistake by the designer of the Helmed Horror or a transference of this Spell Immunity onto their equipment (which should have been specified then) than this contrived sort of reasoning.
2) If they have immunities by virtue of being a creature (which is correct) then Spell Immunity: Heat Metal as written does nothing for them.
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Well, it is weird, because helmed horrors were basically animated armor in the past. You can see this especially since they only take full damage from magic and adamantine weapons. Traditionally, adamantine weapons were used to bypass construct DR. If you were hitting something under the armor, you wouldn't be using adamantine.
Honestly, they're basically just a stronger version of Animated Armor from a lore perspective, but their stat block doesn't really back it up. Its a bit odd, but the game is full of odd little bits and bobs like that.
Its weird because we're talking about Helmed Horrors who specifically CAN be targeted by Heat Metal if you remove the spell immunity to Heat Metal. The HH stat block seems to show that they're wearing armor and a shield, not that they are an armor-based golem.
Your answer is weird because it has nothing to do with the conversation you're quoting.
Yes, but that's heat working exactly like heat always does. The heat not affecting the Helmed Horror because of spell immunity means similar heat from any other source than Heat Metal still affects them. Which is kind of weird - that makes the heat part of the spell, rather than the result.
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No, it can't be specifically targeted any more than a human wearing metal armor can be specifically targeted. What you can target is the armor that it's wearing, but the Helmed Horror will just stand there and be unaffected: no damage or other penalties. Whereas the human will be doing their best impression of a Pop Tart.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes, but helmed horrors are in fact wearing armor, which can be targeted, whereas animated armor is not wearing armor. Which is almost certainly sloppy wording rather than intended, but as written, the helmed horror's armor can be targeted, and unless it has an immunity, the horror will suffer normal effects from having its armor heated.