As one of the "new players" in question, I must say that I very solidly disagree with you, BioWizard. I've been playing D&D for almost I year now.
You're proving my point.
Motivation aside, there is simply not sufficient data to determine whether you, or anyone else in the same boat as you, will still be playing D&D or any RPGs 10 years from now. There is data to suggest I will be, since I have been playing RPGs in one form or another continuously from 1981 until today.
I have a 40 year (man, has it been that long?) record of being a gamer, and buying gaming product that entire time in one form or another (not always hardcover, not always electronic). That history suggests I won't stop being a gamer any time soon. We don't have that kind of data on you.
Doesn't mean you'll cut and run in 6 months... but we simply don't know. Including you don't know. Because you haven't done it yet.
But who are "we" claiming what we know and don't know? Hasbro knows it has sales, sales arguably unprecededented in the history of the TTRPG market. It wants to sustain those sales. How much of those sales is a cut of the lifetime relationship consumers? I'm guessing their market research has a better idea than you or I do. It knows designing a game intentionally lifting up some barriers to entry made for those unprecedented sales levels. I mean saying you've always been in the hobby one way or another doesn't really put a lot of pressure on maintaining you. It's the new bigger numbers they want to maintain and grow. I should also say as someone who has about closer to three than four decades in the hobby, I don't feel I've been disserviced by the direction D&D has gone in.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Do you honestly not realize how awful that sounds, BW? Telling someone their own experiences, desires, and intentions don't matter because they haven't been playing since the 80s?
Nobody else can ever 'have been playing since the 80s'. If your prerequisite for being allowed to be a gamer is "has been gaming since the 80s", no one else will ever be a gamer again. You're telling anyone who's new, excited, and looking to get stuck in for the long haul that they simply don't matter until they've sunk their forty years into it. That is gatekeeping of the worst sort, and it's also foolish.
I've only been playing D&D for a few years now, starting in 2018. I've been a tabletop hobby gamer of one sort or another for what amounts to my entire life. I started with TCGs, moved into CMGs for the brief period those were a thing, dabbled in the occasional deckbuilder or high-end board game, and of course my delight with gaming has led me to spending a godawful amount of money on video games of many different sorts, most notably RPG-style games with huge runtimes derived from the seeds of TTRPGs. The entire time I've played freeform writing games online with my friends, 'role playing' without benefit (or hindrance) of dice or rules. I have been a "D&D" player for only a few years, but I have been gaming since the nineties and you do not remotely get to call me irrelevant simply because this specific game is newer to me.
That's why people fight you over 'The Future of D&D'. You try and cut them out of it simply because they never experienced the past of D&D. The one is not mandatory to partake of the other. Claims that the new direction Wizards is taking with D&D are destructive and ignorant are annoying. The OP's point that Wizards is a godawful ******* terrible company that enjoys leaving those who work alongside it and bolster its profits with their own efforts high and dry is quite well taken, and that is history someone should be aware of. But Pangurjan and others are correct as well. We'll not see a 6e any time soon, no matter how much some of us might pine for one. That doesn't mean the game won't change, though. And it doesn't mean ignoring the huge influx of new players shows like Critical Role have brought to the game is good business practice. Like it or not, TTRPGs are gonna have to get with the program alongside everything else, and that means making changes.
Heck, I started in the early ‘90s (BW, you started gaming when I was born, ‘81), and have been spending money on games ever since. Most of it on D&D (both pre and post WotC), M:tG (another WotC product), and 40k (a game made by GW, another subsidiary of Hasbro). A lot of the rest was spent on 3rd party products to support those three games, or other products tied to their IP (Spellfire/Blood Wars tcgs, M:tG novels, various GW licensed video games, etc.) Not to mention a G.I. Joe obsession that started in the early-mid ‘80s and lasted into my early 20s. That’s, like, 50-60% of my lifetime geekery expenditures. If I’m not still shoveling money at Hasbro products in 10 years it’s either because I’m destitute or dead. (Heck, if Hasbro buys WizKids, and Ninja Turtles, they’ll have it all except my comic books, and they have the licensing rights to most of those for toys already anyway.)
As a 40 year veteran of D&D I am quite happy with the direction that the game is moving. The execution could be better in that the rules language could be cleaner and the changes to Race (Lineage) better codified before trying to implement them, however I am not bothered by the ideas in the slightest. I enjoy 5e better than any previous rule set but there are things that could be done to make the game better in my opinion (such as expanding upon the size rules to fit characters other than small and medium, better crafting rules, and an overhaul to CR) and the changes that are taking place I believe will ultimately make the game better. WotC just needs to commit and do the work to make it happen instead of trying to play the middle ground.
Relax Yurei, that’s not what BW’s saying at all. (You always take things the worst possible way and twist them worse. Chillax my friend.) BW is saying that:
Established buying patterns are highly predictive of future buying patterns.
Companies like Hasbro make a lot of decisions based on demographics and buying patterns.
Newer customers don’t have established buying patterns and therefore data gets skewed.
What BW is failing to realize is that demographics are measured on a whole as aggregated statistical groupings,* and that patterns themselves are highly predictive. In addition, they know us old farts aren’t gonna be around forever, so they wanna make sure they trend young to grow their future consumer base. On top of that, they want to gain new old farts like us because supposedly we’re more likely to have disposable income so they want to do whatever makes the newer players the happiest. They know us old farts are gonna keep giving them our money because no matter how much we complain we keep giving them our money, as the data BW mentioned proves except for one shining lesson, 4e. Therefore, they know all they have to do is ride the rail between “too different” for us old farts and “whatever increases market share” that the new consumers obviously like, and they win.
*(sex/gender, ethnicity, age groupings, etc.) So for example, I fall under “Caucasian, Male, 35-50, etc.,” whatever etc. happens to be. Like, on the UA surveys an etc. is “first edition of D&D played” was 2e (more or less).
As a 40 year veteran of D&D I am quite happy with the direction that the game is moving. The execution could be better in that the rules language could be cleaner and the changes to Race (Lineage) better codified before trying to implement them, however I am not bothered by the ideas in the slightest. I enjoy 5e better than any previous rule set but there are things that could be done to make the game better in my opinion (such as expanding upon the size rules to fit characters other than small and medium, better crafting rules, and an overhaul to CR) and the changes that are taking place I believe will ultimately make the game better. WotC just needs to commit and do the work to make it happen instead of trying to play the middle ground.
I like most of them, but I’m sorry, Elves should be nimble and Dwarves should be stout and Orcs should be strong and Humans should be vanilla. And Psionics should be it’s own thing separate from spellcasting with a unique mechanic and a dedicated class. And everything you said too. All of it up there.
As one of the "new players" in question, I must say that I very solidly disagree with you, BioWizard. I've been playing D&D for almost I year now.
You're proving my point.
Motivation aside, there is simply not sufficient data to determine whether you, or anyone else in the same boat as you, will still be playing D&D or any RPGs 10 years from now. There is data to suggest I will be, since I have been playing RPGs in one form or another continuously from 1981 until today.
I have a 40 year (man, has it been that long?) record of being a gamer, and buying gaming product that entire time in one form or another (not always hardcover, not always electronic). That history suggests I won't stop being a gamer any time soon. We don't have that kind of data on you.
Doesn't mean you'll cut and run in 6 months... but we simply don't know. Including you don't know. Because you haven't done it yet.
Your perceived uncertainty does not excuse invalidating someone else's experience with, or contributions to, the hobby. If anything, you are discouraging the participation of those who would supplant you. And I sincerely hope you are unsuccessful because success would be a step towards killing said hobby.
For background, I was born in '83. I started playing M:TG in the early '90s and played with TTRPGs in high school and university. My first D&D character was a ranger in 3rd Edition, not 3.5. And I've grown as a person with the hobby, trying out a variety of systems. My favorite is still the mud, blood, and sh*t of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition. And for the record, Games Workshop is not a subsidiary of Hasbro. It's publically traded on the London Stock Exchange, and the original founders still, collectively, maintain majority shares. That misconception is the result of numerous April Fools jokes over the years.
But you, and others like you, are not the future of the hobby. You're safe. You'll buy anything. There's no risk with you, and that means there's no profit. The "old guard" isn't a growth industry because you're all just growing older and dying off. It's a harsh truth, but it needs to be said. If the company just catered to you and your ilk, it would stagnate. The game would become a relic. And it would die, along with you and yours, or else become so unprofitable that WotC would sell it off to someone else who would do something with it.
So what if you started playing in '81? Whatever sales data TSR might have had in '82 on your generation you pales in comparison to what is available today. Someone else's lack of time spent with the hobby, relative to your own, is utterly irrelevant to the conversation because you are becoming irrelevant. The hobby, the game, is outgrowing you. It's outgrowing all of us. And I hope it continues to do so for a long time.
So don't try to gatekeep. Not only does it not need your protection, but it's not your responsibility.
Do you honestly not realize how awful that sounds, BW? Telling someone their own experiences, desires, and intentions don't matter because they haven't been playing since the 80s?
I didn't say their experiences, desires, or intentions don't matter. I said that we lack data on whether their enjoyment of the game will be as long-lasting as mine, and whether they will be as reliable a customer of RPGs as I have been, because they haven't been at it as long.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
But all the players who were ardent D&D fans before this edition? The folks who played 3.5, or even earlier? They hate this new approach.
I've been an ardent fan of every D&D edition. I do not feel this way. I do not appreciate this type of reductive rhetoric as it creates unnecessary division in the community. I do not appreciate others telling me how they think I feel. Like other games, this game has not been perfect, is not perfect, and will continue to not be perfect, and, yet, I will still play it as close to RAW as I can and continue to enjoy it.
they know all they have to do is ride the rail between “too different” for us old farts and “whatever increases market share” that the new consumers obviously like, and they win.
If they can find that rail, they can ride it.
I have seen a lot of games try to ride that rail and fall off of it because they couldn't find it. That's all I'm saying.
Back to topic, regarding 6e... WOTC will put it out the second they think they can increase their market share -- that is, when they think they're on the rail. But remember, they're not always right. 4e was an attempt to ride that rail, and it fell off. Other game companies have fallen off of it over the years too, like SOE with the Star Wars Galaxies "New Game Experience." They thought that was on the rail, too, I'm sure. And it lost them like 2/3rd of their customer base, who never came back. DC has tried to "ride the rail" what, 3 times in the last 10 years? (New 52, DC YOU, and whatever they're calling it now). Failed every time.
The fact that (a) the rail can give you a great ride if you get onto it, and (b) WOTC is trying to find and ride it, does not mean they will be successful at it. I'm not saying they won't or can't be... I'm saying it's a hard rail to find, and harder to ride for any length of time, and I don't assume them capable of finding/riding it. They've already fallen off of it once (4e).
A friend of mine once said that D&D editions are like the original-cast Star Trek movies: Every other one is good. For Star Trek, it was the even-numbered ones (II, IV, VI); for D&D, he argued (and I'd probably agree) it's the odd ones (1, 3, and 5).
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Do you honestly not realize how awful that sounds, BW? Telling someone their own experiences, desires, and intentions don't matter because they haven't been playing since the 80s?
I didn't say their experiences, desires, or intentions don't matter. I said that we lack data on whether their enjoyment of the game will be as long-lasting as mine, and whether they will be as reliable a customer of RPGs as I have been, because they haven't been at it as long.
I don't know if that really matters. The goal for WotC is to turn them into you. We'll see how that works out, but those data would really only provide a measuring stick for WotC's success or failure in that area - they wouldn't change the goal of first attracting and then retaining new customers.
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Side note: looking at WotC's track record, they've done a phenomenal job. It took 20+ years, but they increased the ailing player base from the late TSR days and increased it hundredfold or more. They've certainly hit a few bumps along the way (4E) and they certainly shouldn't get all the credit for that growth (it's part of a much larger cultural (r)evolution), but without WotC a whole lot of those able to claim the distinction of having been playing D&D for 40 years would likely be claiming a quarter century instead and that would have been a long time ago. Hindsight's 20/20, but if somebody told me D&D would be where it is today back when 3E was launched, I would not have believed them and I daresay nobody else here would have.
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I still have my old first edition books, my 2nd edition books including the complete series set. I have no 3 or 3.5 books other then Pathfinder which I still see as a mess taking to long for PC creation. never even looked at 4th edition, wasn't even sure they made one till I heard about D&D next and I signed up for the Playtest. I saw what they were doing and it just hit me with the simple rules 5th embraced Advantage/Disadvantage system I just love how it works. I still remember that tweet Mike Mearls did a few years back saying if they did a 6th edition it would be compatible with 5th edition. Along the lines that 1st and 2nd edition melded just a few tweaks and changes here and there, I remember when I was running my 2nd edition campaign I had 1st and 2nd edition rangers in 1 campaign. I don't think it is anywhere near time for a 6th edition and I'm not gonna rush it, I'm just gonna chill and enjoy what we have.
Just to frame the whole "Wizards has done well" thing, and provide some context (and because I will only miss an opportunity to shit on Wizards if I'm actively forced to)...
Video games were invented in the eighties. They didn't exist before then, not really. In the same stretch of time that it's taken D&D to go from a Satanic cult in people's basements to a game people know about and which a few million people play, video games have become a many multiple billion dollar worldwide industry that has changed the face of society as we know it.
Both are entertainment mediums from the 80s. One is just a weeeee bit more of a success story than the other. And I know that comparing All Of Video Gaming to Just D&D likely isn't fair...but comparing "All of TTRPG-dom" to video gaming doesn't really change the math any, since D&D is over ninety-nine percent of all tabletopdom as it is.
As cool as it is that D&D is a much bigger deal these days than it ever has been, it's still nothing but the tiniest pale sliver of success that is Video Gaming. People hate that. But it's still true. Wizards is not all that fantabulous.
For the record, I'm also an old player that prefers modern trends.
Which highlights a different problem with old v new players dichotomy. It's fake. You'll get new players that like the old ways and old players fond of the new.
I prefer being called a modern player. Grognard v. Modern.
Just to frame the whole "Wizards has done well" thing, and provide some context (and because I will only miss an opportunity to shit on Wizards if I'm actively forced to)...
Video games were invented in the eighties. They didn't exist before then, not really. In the same stretch of time that it's taken D&D to go from a Satanic cult in people's basements to a game people know about and which a few million people play, video games have become a many multiple billion dollar worldwide industry that has changed the face of society as we know it.
Both are entertainment mediums from the 80s. One is just a weeeee bit more of a success story than the other. And I know that comparing All Of Video Gaming to Just D&D likely isn't fair...but comparing "All of TTRPG-dom" to video gaming doesn't really change the math any, since D&D is over ninety-nine percent of all tabletopdom as it is.
As cool as it is that D&D is a much bigger deal these days than it ever has been, it's still nothing but the tiniest pale sliver of success that is Video Gaming. People hate that. But it's still true. Wizards is not all that fantabulous.
Eeeeeehh... Wizards didn't get involved until 1997 - the video game industry was already worth an adjusted $50B or so by then. Sony released the PS2 the same year WotC released 3E. And the fact that D&D is 99% of all tabletopdom proves the comparison isn't fair, it's not an argument against that. If as many companies pushed the tabletop industry to that extent as there are and were pushing the video game industry, that'd make things a lot easier for WotC as well.
More fundamentally though, it's comparing apples and oranges. Tabletop games - boardgames included - are not going to get anywhere near sports anymore either, not in our lifetimes nor those of our children. What people want can and does evolve and that evolution can be steered a little bit, but not to that extent or at that pace.
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Just to frame the whole "Wizards has done well" thing, and provide some context (and because I will only miss an opportunity to shit on Wizards if I'm actively forced to)...
Video games were invented in the eighties. They didn't exist before then, not really. In the same stretch of time that it's taken D&D to go from a Satanic cult in people's basements to a game people know about and which a few million people play, video games have become a many multiple billion dollar worldwide industry that has changed the face of society as we know it.
Both are entertainment mediums from the 80s. One is just a weeeee bit more of a success story than the other. And I know that comparing All Of Video Gaming to Just D&D likely isn't fair...but comparing "All of TTRPG-dom" to video gaming doesn't really change the math any, since D&D is over ninety-nine percent of all tabletopdom as it is.
As cool as it is that D&D is a much bigger deal these days than it ever has been, it's still nothing but the tiniest pale sliver of success that is Video Gaming. People hate that. But it's still true. Wizards is not all that fantabulous.
Eeeeeehh... Wizards didn't get involved until 1997 - the video game industry was already worth an adjusted $50B or so by then. Sony released the PS2 the same year WotC released 3E. And the fact that D&D is 99% of all tabletopdom proves the comparison isn't fair, it's not an argument against that. If as many companies pushed the tabletop industry to that extent as there are and were pushing the video game industry, that'd make things a lot easier for WotC as well.
More fundamentally though, it's comparing apples and oranges. Tabletop games - boardgames included - are not going to get anywhere near sports anymore either, not in our lifetimes nor those of our children. What people want can and does evolve and that evolution can be steered a little bit, but not to that extent or at that pace.
The growth of the video game industry and the TTRPG trade is probably the epitome of apples and oranges comparisons. Yes, both grew out of grove one could arguably plant in the 80s. But TTRPG was something that I'd say to this day is tied to the infrastructures of book publishing. Whereas video games got to ride disparate curves such as Moore's Law, the commodification of the internet, among many other things. It would be more fair to compare TTRPG to book publishing or comic publishing where I believe you'll find more competitive standing (WB and Disneys management of their respective comics labels being major outliers in the industry, but probably worth comparing). I mean you might as well be comparing horse racing to NASCAR in growth terms, and that still wouldn't be right.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The growth of the video game industry and the TTRPG trade is probably the epitome of apples and oranges comparisons. Yes, both grew out of grove one could arguably plant in the 80s. But TTRPG was something that I'd say to this day is tied to the infrastructures of book publishing. Whereas video games got to ride disparate curves such as Moore's Law, the commodification of the internet, among many other things. It would be more fair to compare TTRPG to book publishing or comic publishing where I believe you'll find more competitive standing (WB and Disneys management of their respective comics labels being major outliers in the industry, but probably worth comparing). I mean you might as well be comparing horse racing to NASCAR in growth terms, and that still wouldn't be right.
Also worth noting that video games are fully packaged content: you play the levels, puzzles, fights, whatever that the designers/artists/programmers made. Tabletops, however, are more of a framework for customer-created content. Even if WotC is publishing whole campaigns (seriously, D&D folks don't know how good they have it ;) in existing, shared worlds, a DM/GM needs to run those campaigns and make them work, and players need to work with them to play.
The growth of the video game industry and the TTRPG trade is probably the epitome of apples and oranges comparisons. Yes, both grew out of grove one could arguably plant in the 80s. But TTRPG was something that I'd say to this day is tied to the infrastructures of book publishing. Whereas video games got to ride disparate curves such as Moore's Law, the commodification of the internet, among many other things. It would be more fair to compare TTRPG to book publishing or comic publishing where I believe you'll find more competitive standing (WB and Disneys management of their respective comics labels being major outliers in the industry, but probably worth comparing). I mean you might as well be comparing horse racing to NASCAR in growth terms, and that still wouldn't be right.
Also worth noting that video games are fully packaged content: you play the levels, puzzles, fights, whatever that the designers/artists/programmers made. Tabletops, however, are more of a framework for customer-created content. Even if WotC is publishing whole campaigns (seriously, D&D folks don't know how good they have it ;) in existing, shared worlds, a DM/GM needs to run those campaigns and make them work, and players need to work with them to play.
It's also a matter of medium. I mean, look at books. Ugh, books, gross, amirite? Been around for centuries longer than tv, and tv is just crushing books. Authors and publishers must absolutely suck, obviously, and tv peeps are the best. Can't be anything else.
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But who are "we" claiming what we know and don't know? Hasbro knows it has sales, sales arguably unprecededented in the history of the TTRPG market. It wants to sustain those sales. How much of those sales is a cut of the lifetime relationship consumers? I'm guessing their market research has a better idea than you or I do. It knows designing a game intentionally lifting up some barriers to entry made for those unprecedented sales levels. I mean saying you've always been in the hobby one way or another doesn't really put a lot of pressure on maintaining you. It's the new bigger numbers they want to maintain and grow. I should also say as someone who has about closer to three than four decades in the hobby, I don't feel I've been disserviced by the direction D&D has gone in.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Do you honestly not realize how awful that sounds, BW? Telling someone their own experiences, desires, and intentions don't matter because they haven't been playing since the 80s?
Nobody else can ever 'have been playing since the 80s'. If your prerequisite for being allowed to be a gamer is "has been gaming since the 80s", no one else will ever be a gamer again. You're telling anyone who's new, excited, and looking to get stuck in for the long haul that they simply don't matter until they've sunk their forty years into it. That is gatekeeping of the worst sort, and it's also foolish.
I've only been playing D&D for a few years now, starting in 2018. I've been a tabletop hobby gamer of one sort or another for what amounts to my entire life. I started with TCGs, moved into CMGs for the brief period those were a thing, dabbled in the occasional deckbuilder or high-end board game, and of course my delight with gaming has led me to spending a godawful amount of money on video games of many different sorts, most notably RPG-style games with huge runtimes derived from the seeds of TTRPGs. The entire time I've played freeform writing games online with my friends, 'role playing' without benefit (or hindrance) of dice or rules. I have been a "D&D" player for only a few years, but I have been gaming since the nineties and you do not remotely get to call me irrelevant simply because this specific game is newer to me.
That's why people fight you over 'The Future of D&D'. You try and cut them out of it simply because they never experienced the past of D&D. The one is not mandatory to partake of the other. Claims that the new direction Wizards is taking with D&D are destructive and ignorant are annoying. The OP's point that Wizards is a godawful ******* terrible company that enjoys leaving those who work alongside it and bolster its profits with their own efforts high and dry is quite well taken, and that is history someone should be aware of. But Pangurjan and others are correct as well. We'll not see a 6e any time soon, no matter how much some of us might pine for one. That doesn't mean the game won't change, though. And it doesn't mean ignoring the huge influx of new players shows like Critical Role have brought to the game is good business practice. Like it or not, TTRPGs are gonna have to get with the program alongside everything else, and that means making changes.
Please do not contact or message me.
Heck, I started in the early ‘90s (BW, you started gaming when I was born, ‘81), and have been spending money on games ever since. Most of it on D&D (both pre and post WotC), M:tG (another WotC product), and 40k (a game made by GW, another subsidiary of Hasbro). A lot of the rest was spent on 3rd party products to support those three games, or other products tied to their IP (Spellfire/Blood Wars tcgs, M:tG novels, various GW licensed video games, etc.) Not to mention a G.I. Joe obsession that started in the early-mid ‘80s and lasted into my early 20s. That’s, like, 50-60% of my lifetime geekery expenditures. If I’m not still shoveling money at Hasbro products in 10 years it’s either because I’m destitute or dead. (Heck, if Hasbro buys WizKids, and Ninja Turtles, they’ll have it all except my comic books, and they have the licensing rights to most of those for toys already anyway.)
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As a 40 year veteran of D&D I am quite happy with the direction that the game is moving. The execution could be better in that the rules language could be cleaner and the changes to Race (Lineage) better codified before trying to implement them, however I am not bothered by the ideas in the slightest. I enjoy 5e better than any previous rule set but there are things that could be done to make the game better in my opinion (such as expanding upon the size rules to fit characters other than small and medium, better crafting rules, and an overhaul to CR) and the changes that are taking place I believe will ultimately make the game better. WotC just needs to commit and do the work to make it happen instead of trying to play the middle ground.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Relax Yurei, that’s not what BW’s saying at all. (You always take things the worst possible way and twist them worse. Chillax my friend.) BW is saying that:
What BW is failing to realize is that demographics are measured on a whole as aggregated statistical groupings,* and that patterns themselves are highly predictive. In addition, they know us old farts aren’t gonna be around forever, so they wanna make sure they trend young to grow their future consumer base. On top of that, they want to gain new old farts like us because supposedly we’re more likely to have disposable income so they want to do whatever makes the newer players the happiest. They know us old farts are gonna keep giving them our money because no matter how much we complain we keep giving them our money, as the data BW mentioned proves except for one shining lesson, 4e. Therefore, they know all they have to do is ride the rail between “too different” for us old farts and “whatever increases market share” that the new consumers obviously like, and they win.
*(sex/gender, ethnicity, age groupings, etc.) So for example, I fall under “Caucasian, Male, 35-50, etc.,” whatever etc. happens to be. Like, on the UA surveys an etc. is “first edition of D&D played” was 2e (more or less).
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I like most of them, but I’m sorry, Elves should be nimble and Dwarves should be stout and Orcs should be strong and Humans should be vanilla. And Psionics should be it’s own thing separate from spellcasting with a unique mechanic and a dedicated class. And everything you said too. All of it up there.
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Your perceived uncertainty does not excuse invalidating someone else's experience with, or contributions to, the hobby. If anything, you are discouraging the participation of those who would supplant you. And I sincerely hope you are unsuccessful because success would be a step towards killing said hobby.
For background, I was born in '83. I started playing M:TG in the early '90s and played with TTRPGs in high school and university. My first D&D character was a ranger in 3rd Edition, not 3.5. And I've grown as a person with the hobby, trying out a variety of systems. My favorite is still the mud, blood, and sh*t of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition. And for the record, Games Workshop is not a subsidiary of Hasbro. It's publically traded on the London Stock Exchange, and the original founders still, collectively, maintain majority shares. That misconception is the result of numerous April Fools jokes over the years.
But you, and others like you, are not the future of the hobby. You're safe. You'll buy anything. There's no risk with you, and that means there's no profit. The "old guard" isn't a growth industry because you're all just growing older and dying off. It's a harsh truth, but it needs to be said. If the company just catered to you and your ilk, it would stagnate. The game would become a relic. And it would die, along with you and yours, or else become so unprofitable that WotC would sell it off to someone else who would do something with it.
So what if you started playing in '81? Whatever sales data TSR might have had in '82 on your generation you pales in comparison to what is available today. Someone else's lack of time spent with the hobby, relative to your own, is utterly irrelevant to the conversation because you are becoming irrelevant. The hobby, the game, is outgrowing you. It's outgrowing all of us. And I hope it continues to do so for a long time.
So don't try to gatekeep. Not only does it not need your protection, but it's not your responsibility.
I didn't say their experiences, desires, or intentions don't matter. I said that we lack data on whether their enjoyment of the game will be as long-lasting as mine, and whether they will be as reliable a customer of RPGs as I have been, because they haven't been at it as long.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I've been an ardent fan of every D&D edition. I do not feel this way. I do not appreciate this type of reductive rhetoric as it creates unnecessary division in the community. I do not appreciate others telling me how they think I feel. Like other games, this game has not been perfect, is not perfect, and will continue to not be perfect, and, yet, I will still play it as close to RAW as I can and continue to enjoy it.
If they can find that rail, they can ride it.
I have seen a lot of games try to ride that rail and fall off of it because they couldn't find it. That's all I'm saying.
Back to topic, regarding 6e... WOTC will put it out the second they think they can increase their market share -- that is, when they think they're on the rail. But remember, they're not always right. 4e was an attempt to ride that rail, and it fell off. Other game companies have fallen off of it over the years too, like SOE with the Star Wars Galaxies "New Game Experience." They thought that was on the rail, too, I'm sure. And it lost them like 2/3rd of their customer base, who never came back. DC has tried to "ride the rail" what, 3 times in the last 10 years? (New 52, DC YOU, and whatever they're calling it now). Failed every time.
The fact that (a) the rail can give you a great ride if you get onto it, and (b) WOTC is trying to find and ride it, does not mean they will be successful at it. I'm not saying they won't or can't be... I'm saying it's a hard rail to find, and harder to ride for any length of time, and I don't assume them capable of finding/riding it. They've already fallen off of it once (4e).
A friend of mine once said that D&D editions are like the original-cast Star Trek movies: Every other one is good. For Star Trek, it was the even-numbered ones (II, IV, VI); for D&D, he argued (and I'd probably agree) it's the odd ones (1, 3, and 5).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I don't know if that really matters. The goal for WotC is to turn them into you. We'll see how that works out, but those data would really only provide a measuring stick for WotC's success or failure in that area - they wouldn't change the goal of first attracting and then retaining new customers.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Side note: looking at WotC's track record, they've done a phenomenal job. It took 20+ years, but they increased the ailing player base from the late TSR days and increased it hundredfold or more. They've certainly hit a few bumps along the way (4E) and they certainly shouldn't get all the credit for that growth (it's part of a much larger cultural (r)evolution), but without WotC a whole lot of those able to claim the distinction of having been playing D&D for 40 years would likely be claiming a quarter century instead and that would have been a long time ago. Hindsight's 20/20, but if somebody told me D&D would be where it is today back when 3E was launched, I would not have believed them and I daresay nobody else here would have.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I still have my old first edition books, my 2nd edition books including the complete series set. I have no 3 or 3.5 books other then Pathfinder which I still see as a mess taking to long for PC creation. never even looked at 4th edition, wasn't even sure they made one till I heard about D&D next and I signed up for the Playtest. I saw what they were doing and it just hit me with the simple rules 5th embraced Advantage/Disadvantage system I just love how it works. I still remember that tweet Mike Mearls did a few years back saying if they did a 6th edition it would be compatible with 5th edition. Along the lines that 1st and 2nd edition melded just a few tweaks and changes here and there, I remember when I was running my 2nd edition campaign I had 1st and 2nd edition rangers in 1 campaign. I don't think it is anywhere near time for a 6th edition and I'm not gonna rush it, I'm just gonna chill and enjoy what we have.
Just to frame the whole "Wizards has done well" thing, and provide some context (and because I will only miss an opportunity to shit on Wizards if I'm actively forced to)...
Video games were invented in the eighties. They didn't exist before then, not really. In the same stretch of time that it's taken D&D to go from a Satanic cult in people's basements to a game people know about and which a few million people play, video games have become a many multiple billion dollar worldwide industry that has changed the face of society as we know it.
Both are entertainment mediums from the 80s. One is just a weeeee bit more of a success story than the other. And I know that comparing All Of Video Gaming to Just D&D likely isn't fair...but comparing "All of TTRPG-dom" to video gaming doesn't really change the math any, since D&D is over ninety-nine percent of all tabletopdom as it is.
As cool as it is that D&D is a much bigger deal these days than it ever has been, it's still nothing but the tiniest pale sliver of success that is Video Gaming. People hate that. But it's still true. Wizards is not all that fantabulous.
Please do not contact or message me.
For the record, I'm also an old player that prefers modern trends.
Which highlights a different problem with old v new players dichotomy. It's fake. You'll get new players that like the old ways and old players fond of the new.
I prefer being called a modern player. Grognard v. Modern.
Eeeeeehh... Wizards didn't get involved until 1997 - the video game industry was already worth an adjusted $50B or so by then. Sony released the PS2 the same year WotC released 3E. And the fact that D&D is 99% of all tabletopdom proves the comparison isn't fair, it's not an argument against that. If as many companies pushed the tabletop industry to that extent as there are and were pushing the video game industry, that'd make things a lot easier for WotC as well.
More fundamentally though, it's comparing apples and oranges. Tabletop games - boardgames included - are not going to get anywhere near sports anymore either, not in our lifetimes nor those of our children. What people want can and does evolve and that evolution can be steered a little bit, but not to that extent or at that pace.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The growth of the video game industry and the TTRPG trade is probably the epitome of apples and oranges comparisons. Yes, both grew out of grove one could arguably plant in the 80s. But TTRPG was something that I'd say to this day is tied to the infrastructures of book publishing. Whereas video games got to ride disparate curves such as Moore's Law, the commodification of the internet, among many other things. It would be more fair to compare TTRPG to book publishing or comic publishing where I believe you'll find more competitive standing (WB and Disneys management of their respective comics labels being major outliers in the industry, but probably worth comparing). I mean you might as well be comparing horse racing to NASCAR in growth terms, and that still wouldn't be right.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Also worth noting that video games are fully packaged content: you play the levels, puzzles, fights, whatever that the designers/artists/programmers made. Tabletops, however, are more of a framework for customer-created content. Even if WotC is publishing whole campaigns (seriously, D&D folks don't know how good they have it ;) in existing, shared worlds, a DM/GM needs to run those campaigns and make them work, and players need to work with them to play.
It's also a matter of medium. I mean, look at books. Ugh, books, gross, amirite? Been around for centuries longer than tv, and tv is just crushing books. Authors and publishers must absolutely suck, obviously, and tv peeps are the best. Can't be anything else.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
You had me at “**** WotC.”
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