Crusher, yes (the slam does bludgeoning damage); Tavern Brawler, no (the Earth Elemental's attacks don't count as improvised weapons or unarmed strikes).
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Crusher, yes (the slam does bludgeoning damage); Tavern Brawler, no (the Earth Elemental's attacks don't count as improvised weapons or unarmed strikes).
Why would it not count as an unarmed attack? It is not natural weaponry in any conventional sense. Nor is the elemental wielding any weapon.
Per the SRD/Basic Rules: "The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attack, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon such as a claw or tail spike."
Basically, any part of a monstrous race(does not have the humanoid subtype) that is specifically called out with a damage block is considered a natural weapon.
As with anything, DM discretion. If I had a druid that spent an ASI increase on this? I'd totally allow it.
"An earth elemental plods forward like a walking hill, club-like arms of jagged stone swinging at its sides. Its head and body consist of dirt and stone, occasionally set with chunks of metal, gems, and bright minerals.
Earth elementals glide through rock and earth as though they were liquid. Earthbound creatures have much to fear from an earth elemental, since the elemental can pinpoint the precise location of any foe that stands on solid ground in its vicinity."
The whole point of the slam attack isn't so much that they are like a boxer taking an aimed calculated strike at you with their glove, they are simply throwing their arms at you. Their arm of jagged stone slamming into you. You could make the argument from the description that maybe that's piercing damage instead, but the PHB also makes clear its stance on what constitutes piercing damage.
"Puncturing and impaling attacks, including spears and monsters’ bites, deal piercing damage"
Slam doesn't puncture or impale, it throws its mass into you. You might get punctured in the process, but that's just an added benefit(no mechanical benefit to the DM, mind you).
"An earth elemental plods forward like a walking hill, club-like arms of jagged stone swinging at its sides. Its head and body consist of dirt and stone, occasionally set with chunks of metal, gems, and bright minerals.
Earth elementals glide through rock and earth as though they were liquid. Earthbound creatures have much to fear from an earth elemental, since the elemental can pinpoint the precise location of any foe that stands on solid ground in its vicinity."
The whole point of the slam attack isn't so much that they are like a boxer taking an aimed calculated strike at you with their glove, they are simply throwing their arms at you. Their arm of jagged stone slamming into you. You could make the argument from the description that maybe that's piercing damage instead, but the PHB also makes clear its stance on what constitutes piercing damage.
"Puncturing and impaling attacks, including spears and monsters’ bites, deal piercing damage"
Slam doesn't puncture or impale, it throws its mass into you. You might get punctured in the process, but that's just an added benefit(no mechanical benefit to the DM, mind you).
Buff humans are often described as having 'club-like arms' so again... is there no such thing as an unarmed attack?
Are there unarmed attacks, yeah. An earth elemental could totally do an unarmed attack at prof+str to hit, and 1+str for damage. Slam is not considered as such, however.
That being said, per the crusher feat: "Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you."
It never specifies what kind of attack, meaning literally any attack of any kind that deals bludgeoning damage. Including Meteor Swarm.
"An earth elemental plods forward like a walking hill, club-like arms of jagged stone swinging at its sides. Its head and body consist of dirt and stone, occasionally set with chunks of metal, gems, and bright minerals.
Earth elementals glide through rock and earth as though they were liquid. Earthbound creatures have much to fear from an earth elemental, since the elemental can pinpoint the precise location of any foe that stands on solid ground in its vicinity."
The whole point of the slam attack isn't so much that they are like a boxer taking an aimed calculated strike at you with their glove, they are simply throwing their arms at you. Their arm of jagged stone slamming into you. You could make the argument from the description that maybe that's piercing damage instead, but the PHB also makes clear its stance on what constitutes piercing damage.
"Puncturing and impaling attacks, including spears and monsters’ bites, deal piercing damage"
Slam doesn't puncture or impale, it throws its mass into you. You might get punctured in the process, but that's just an added benefit(no mechanical benefit to the DM, mind you).
Slam itself is not described in detail at all. They have 'club-like arms of jagged stone' this is true, but 'swinging at their sides' is normal walking cadence, not a combat maneuver. And in a typical contradiction, the graphic shows relatively flat plates, not jagged at all. Buff humans are often described as having 'club-like arms' so again... is there no such thing as an unarmed attack?
More importantly, though, the attack is described as bludgeoning.
An elemental's slam attack doesn't do unarmed strike damage and elementals don't have any ability that explains why their unarmed strikes would not do regular unarmed strike damage - ergo, slam attacks are not unarmed strikes.
That said, I will clarify that yes, an elemental wildshaped druid can make an unarmed attack (using the standard mechanics for unarmed strikes) and benefit from Tavern Brawler if they do so - they just can't do this in conjunction with a slam.
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Correct, so we go with the default assumption, which is natural weapons.
Tabaxi claws for example are also natural weapons but the feature explicitly states you can make unarmed strikes with them. When you don't have that clause, you can't make unarmed strikes. Even if something is specifically characterized as having hands, which earth elementals are not.
An elemental's slam attack doesn't do unarmed strike damage and elementals don't have any ability that explains why their unarmed strikes would not do regular unarmed strike damage - ergo, slam attacks are not unarmed strikes.
That said, I will clarify that yes, an elemental wildshaped druid can make an unarmed attack (using the standard mechanics for unarmed strikes) and benefit from Tavern Brawler if they do so - they just can't do this in conjunction with a slam.
Not sure what you mean by Earth Elementals do not have any ability. Other than being pedantic and saying 'it isn't called an unarmed attack, therefore it isn't one.'
Or possibly 'Well it doesn't say they can make unarmed attacks.'
It does not say they can pick things up either. Are you insisting their hands are for show only?
As I said, they can make unarmed attacks if they want. Slams, however, are not those. What points to them being unarmed? Nothing in the statblock suggests they are. Their damage doesn't correspond with that of an unarmed attack, so the only thing that could explain that damage and still make them unarmed attacks would be an ability or at minimum an explicit rule that says they're an exception. It's not just about what their mechanics don't say, it's first and foremost about what they do say.
Edit: for the record, a critter doesn't need hands to make unarmed strikes to begin with so that's a moot argument.
Correct, so we go with the default assumption, which is natural weapons.
Tabaxi claws for example are also natural weapons but the feature explicitly states you can make unarmed strikes with them. When you don't have that clause, you can't make unarmed strikes. Even if something is specifically characterized as having hands, which earth elementals are not.
Anything that can attack physically can make an unarmed attack. Unarmed attacks can be made with the head, elbow, feet, pinky, doesn't matter. Without the clause you reference it's not possible to make an unarmed strike with your natural weapon though, presumably to disallow mixing and matching certain mechanics unless an exception - like this clause - is made.
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Damage: Monks and those with tavern brawler can donon-standard unarmed damage and Earth Elementals are size Large rather than the size Medium and have non-PC physiology. There is nothing that says all creatures must have identical unarmed attack damage schemes. They are not described as weapon using and are just bashing with their arms.
Monks and those with Tavern Brawler have a specific rule changing their unarmed damage. That's my point - elementals don't. Enlarge teaches us that going up a size increases damage by 1d4, so still not corresponding with slam damage, and with Reborn out it's safe to say there no such thing as PC or non-PC physiology (in fact, a Reborn could effectively be stuck in an elemental's body, though it wouldn't inherit the physical qualities).
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That said, I will clarify that yes, an elemental wildshaped druid can make an unarmed attack (using the standard mechanics for unarmed strikes) and benefit from Tavern Brawler if they do so - they just can't do this in conjunction with a slam.
So I sat there and thought about this, and all the different rules here:
This is the rule on Wild Shape:
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your Special Senses, such as Darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
This is Crusher:
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
This is Slam:
Slam. Melee Weapon Attack:+8 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 14 (2d8 + 5) bludgeoning damage.
I don't think Crusher was ever in doubt. Tavern Brawler apparently is, but Crusher while wildshaped into an elemental seems pretty cut and dried as valid.
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I don't think Crusher was ever in doubt. Tavern Brawler apparently is, but Crusher while wildshaped into an elemental seems pretty cut and dried as valid.
You're right.
Back to an earlier point, while I sit here and talk PURE Raw in this thread, from a rules as fun standpoint? I'd probably allow it. Same concept as before, the character is using a feat to achieve this, and the wild shapes aren't that strong? If a characters entire shtick is that they transform into an earth elemental to smash and bash and lock down an opponent? The bonus action grapple? Sure. It's not as game breaking as people might think. Druid losing an ASI for this(probably Wisdom, which is one less spell known plus spell casting modifier and spell save DC) puts them at more of a disadvantage, and it's only available at level 10. Level 10 combat has a lot of options to get around this.
Earth elementals don't have skills, so it's making an athletics check at a +5. A level 1 16 str/dex PC with Athletics or Acrobatics is going to have just as much of a chance to escape this as the elemental will have to make it.
It's totally a DM decision here, but I'd allow it. RAW, they are not unarmed strikes. They are natural weapons. The distinction is very important.
Earth Glide. The elemental can burrow through nonmagical, unworked earth and stone. While doing so, the elemental doesn't disturb the material it moves through.
Siege Monster. The elemental deals double damage to objects and structures.
Actions
Multiattack. The elemental makes two slam attacks.
Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 14 (2d8 + 5) bludgeoning damage.
Tavern Brawler
You are proficient with improvised weapons.
Your unarmed strike uses a d4 for damage.
When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target.
Earth Elemental Brawler
Armor Class 17 (Natural Armor) Hit Points 126 (12d10 + 60) Speed 30 ft., burrow 30 ft.
STR 20 (+5) DEX 8 (-1) CON 20 (+5) INT As per the Druid WIS 20 (+5) at most CHA As per the Druid
Earth Glide. The elemental can burrow through nonmagical, unworked earth and stone. While doing so, the elemental doesn't disturb the material it moves through.
Siege Monster. The elemental deals double damage to objects and structures.
Actions
Multiattack. The elemental makes two slam attacks or one Brawl attack.
Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 10 ft, one target. Hit: 17 (2d8 + 1d4 + 5)
Brawl. Improvised Weapon Strike: +8 to hit, reach 10 ft, one target. Hit: 8 (1d4 + 5)
The Tavern Brawler Feat adds 1d4 to their Slam, and a new attack I called "Brawl" That's when they pick up something else (can't use any part of themselves) and whack their enemy with it. They get the option to Grapple, at which point they will pretty much need to drop their weapon, so that doesn't change anything but how far away the enemy was before they hit it.
Will this two feats with the Druid's Earth Elemental Wildshape?
Crusher, yes (the slam does bludgeoning damage); Tavern Brawler, no (the Earth Elemental's attacks don't count as improvised weapons or unarmed strikes).
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The Elemental's slam attack is a natural weapon.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Per the SRD/Basic Rules: "The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attack, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon such as a claw or tail spike."
Basically, any part of a monstrous race(does not have the humanoid subtype) that is specifically called out with a damage block is considered a natural weapon.
As with anything, DM discretion. If I had a druid that spent an ASI increase on this? I'd totally allow it.
No, because the PHB states they don't.
The whole point of the slam attack isn't so much that they are like a boxer taking an aimed calculated strike at you with their glove, they are simply throwing their arms at you. Their arm of jagged stone slamming into you. You could make the argument from the description that maybe that's piercing damage instead, but the PHB also makes clear its stance on what constitutes piercing damage.
"Puncturing and impaling attacks, including spears and monsters’ bites, deal piercing damage"
Slam doesn't puncture or impale, it throws its mass into you. You might get punctured in the process, but that's just an added benefit(no mechanical benefit to the DM, mind you).
Are there unarmed attacks, yeah. An earth elemental could totally do an unarmed attack at prof+str to hit, and 1+str for damage. Slam is not considered as such, however.
That being said, per the crusher feat: "Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you."
It never specifies what kind of attack, meaning literally any attack of any kind that deals bludgeoning damage. Including Meteor Swarm.
An elemental's slam attack doesn't do unarmed strike damage and elementals don't have any ability that explains why their unarmed strikes would not do regular unarmed strike damage - ergo, slam attacks are not unarmed strikes.
That said, I will clarify that yes, an elemental wildshaped druid can make an unarmed attack (using the standard mechanics for unarmed strikes) and benefit from Tavern Brawler if they do so - they just can't do this in conjunction with a slam.
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Correct, so we go with the default assumption, which is natural weapons.
Tabaxi claws for example are also natural weapons but the feature explicitly states you can make unarmed strikes with them. When you don't have that clause, you can't make unarmed strikes. Even if something is specifically characterized as having hands, which earth elementals are not.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
As I said, they can make unarmed attacks if they want. Slams, however, are not those. What points to them being unarmed? Nothing in the statblock suggests they are. Their damage doesn't correspond with that of an unarmed attack, so the only thing that could explain that damage and still make them unarmed attacks would be an ability or at minimum an explicit rule that says they're an exception. It's not just about what their mechanics don't say, it's first and foremost about what they do say.
Edit: for the record, a critter doesn't need hands to make unarmed strikes to begin with so that's a moot argument.
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Anything that can attack physically can make an unarmed attack. Unarmed attacks can be made with the head, elbow, feet, pinky, doesn't matter. Without the clause you reference it's not possible to make an unarmed strike with your natural weapon though, presumably to disallow mixing and matching certain mechanics unless an exception - like this clause - is made.
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Monks and those with Tavern Brawler have a specific rule changing their unarmed damage. That's my point - elementals don't. Enlarge teaches us that going up a size increases damage by 1d4, so still not corresponding with slam damage, and with Reborn out it's safe to say there no such thing as PC or non-PC physiology (in fact, a Reborn could effectively be stuck in an elemental's body, though it wouldn't inherit the physical qualities).
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The topic of this thread is a rules question. Thus, I refer to the rules to try and provide an answer.
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So I sat there and thought about this, and all the different rules here:
This is the rule on Wild Shape:
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your Special Senses, such as Darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
This is Crusher:
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
This is Slam:
Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 14 (2d8 + 5) bludgeoning damage.
Everything lines up and says, RAW, this is valid.
I don't think Crusher was ever in doubt. Tavern Brawler apparently is, but Crusher while wildshaped into an elemental seems pretty cut and dried as valid.
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You're right.
Back to an earlier point, while I sit here and talk PURE Raw in this thread, from a rules as fun standpoint? I'd probably allow it. Same concept as before, the character is using a feat to achieve this, and the wild shapes aren't that strong? If a characters entire shtick is that they transform into an earth elemental to smash and bash and lock down an opponent? The bonus action grapple? Sure. It's not as game breaking as people might think. Druid losing an ASI for this(probably Wisdom, which is one less spell known plus spell casting modifier and spell save DC) puts them at more of a disadvantage, and it's only available at level 10. Level 10 combat has a lot of options to get around this.
Earth elementals don't have skills, so it's making an athletics check at a +5. A level 1 16 str/dex PC with Athletics or Acrobatics is going to have just as much of a chance to escape this as the elemental will have to make it.
It's totally a DM decision here, but I'd allow it. RAW, they are not unarmed strikes. They are natural weapons. The distinction is very important.
The Tavern Brawler Feat adds 1d4 to their Slam, and a new attack I called "Brawl" That's when they pick up something else (can't use any part of themselves) and whack their enemy with it. They get the option to Grapple, at which point they will pretty much need to drop their weapon, so that doesn't change anything but how far away the enemy was before they hit it.
<Insert clever signature here>