Could i get you to elaborate a little bit? I agree with everything your praising Dark Sun for, as well as with the mentality it should be approached with, but it also seems like your defending WotC for changing/removing those very things in DnD as of late.
This statement shows a deep, possibly fundamental, misunderstanding of what Wizards is doing. One that is unfortunately far too common, both in D&D and elsewhere. The goal has never been to 'remove evil' from D&D. Let me repeat that, with all the emphasis I can reasonably muster.
THE GOAL HAS NEVER BEEN TO REMOVE EVIL FROM D&D
People have been ranting and wailing and gnashing their teeth over this, but allow mt to state this: removing something from the system is different than removing that thing from the world. Removing systemic, above-the-table racism from D&D is not the same thing, at all, as removing it from the fictional worlds D&D is played in. The realms of D&D are flawed places where people make mistakes and even entire civilizations can be skewed from true. The last few years have simply seen Wizards trying to backpedal on the idea that these things are baked into the essential nature of entire sapient species, and people who do not understand why this is a problem worthy of fixing assume it's going to continue and they're going to strip everything away from the game instead. Because they do not understand, and in many cases it is a willful, intentional, and malicious refusal to understand rather than honest lack of clarity. Sadly, that malicious nonunderstanding pollutes many of these discussions and they turn into forum fires the moderators have to shut down, over and over and over again until the whole subject is on the brink of being verboten.
It should not be. But malicious bad actors have pushed it as close as a subject can get without quite crossing the line yet. I'm trying my hardest to keep in mind that you seem to be making an honest request for clarification and treat it accordingly, but please also remember that I am very angry about this entire state of affairs. Please pardon me if I am brusque.
As you say, surviving in the world of Athas amidst all its "problematic" content is a great basis for a story-based RPG, yet the very founded fear held by some advocates of the setting, is that those things will be lessened or removed entirely should present-day WotC treat it the same way they have treated all their lore that hasn't particularly aligned with whatever agenda they're catering to. The things, as you so poetically articulated (not sarcasm), which are the core appeal and style of story when playing within the setting.
And this is one of the big reasons why I'm so angry about this whole situation. People assume (or rather, are told to assume by off-website people I am not mentioning here) that Wizards is being a craven, cynical money-chasing Twitter-appeasing jerkbag about this rather than making an honest effort to correct issues that affect a great many players. They assume there's no 'good' reason behind the change in direction over the last few years and that a bunch of "woke" people are trying to simply ruin the game with no intention of sticking around when the work is done. The assumption has always seemed to be that the only thing we want is to "woke-ify" D&D and once that is accomplished we'll all get bored and move on to the next thing to "woke-ify", because the only reason any of us are ever protesting any of these things is for the sake of having something to protest about.
That is patently untrue, and goes right back to malicious misunderstanding. There is no agenda, save for the "Agenda" of not needlessly harming and expelling many thousands of players from the game. The general tone of Athas as a broken world is not problematic at all, at least not in the way people keep attempting to maliciously misunderstand.
You could argue that if a dumbed down version of the setting were released for 5e, that anyone who preferred it the way it was could simply continue to run it as it was (as i would do should it happen), however the same argument can be made in reverse that anyone who feels it needs to be dumbed down can do so for their own games. The way that lore has been unceremoniously carved out of D&D's worlds and stories is like watching one of your favorite movies in a franchise get disregarded from the cannon of future entries; you can always just go back and enjoy the movie as it was, but there will always be that sore spot that future official content wont really reflect it.
I could argue that. It would be a stupid thing to argue and wasn't what I was arguing at all. What I am arguing is that the system - the mechanical and instructional text in the books - does not and never has needed to be making value judgments for the players above the table. A section on Badlandia in a world gazetteer saying "this region is primarily inhabited by the Blood Pimple raider tribe, a band mostly composed of orcs, goblins, and bugbears. The Blood Pimple raiders are a brutal, merciless band of pillagers with no regard for anything but personal strength, preying on any weaker than themselves" is fine. A little clumsy and heavy-handed for my tastes, but fine. A section in the species write-up for orcs as a playable species saying "whatever world or culture they originate from, orcs are a brutal, merciless breed with no regard for anything but personal strength. They prey on anyone weaker than themselves, and no orc unable to hold their own survives long in these vicious societies" is not f@#$ing okay. It has never been okay to present a playable species in that way. Not in 5e, not in 4e, not in all the different 3e's, not in any damned edition of the game. This is simply the first time enough people have had the courage to stand up and say "Hey, that's not okay" for TSR/Wizards to take notice.
People assume that removing these value judgments from the core books that need to be valid and viable for any setting - Athas, Faerun, Eberron, Exandria, the infinite myriad of homebrew worlds out there - is somehow equivalent to "ruining the lore" for every other specific setting. Again, either that's an absolutely daft and utterly unsupported leap of logic, or it's malicious misunderstanding.
Of course, this is all hypothetical. Its entirely possible WotC might pucker up and make an unfettered, un-remorseful 5e release of Dark Sun, in which case i'd be all for it. But to bring me back to my original question, it seems like you are saying Dark Sun was fine they way it was while denouncing anyone who simply wants it to stay that way.
EDIT: If what you mean by "Celebrating those things" includes having NPCs that, as a part of their story, are enthralled by them or revel in them, wouldn't the setting feel a little hollow if those problems were its core presence but no NPC ever desired them (aka, were part of the problem of why the world is that way at all)? I don't recall ever playing in a Dark Sun game or reading a module that ever regarded those things as 'good' outside the context of describing a non-player character who thought as much.
I am denouncing people who want a "raw, uncut, unfiltered, filthy and gritty Dark Sun just like Mama TSR used to make!" so they can spend an entire game session lovingly narrating their character/party wandering into the market, buying themselves a harem of sobbing, brutalized, traumatized sex slaves, spending the day merrily ****** them, cooking them alive and eating them for dinner that night, and then doing it all over again the next day. I am denouncing the people who say "you have to be evil in Athas!" and punishing their players for not wallowing in the setting's misery and doing their best to become the Sorcerer-Kings' trusted right hands so they can be crowned the Kings of Crimes Against Kithkind. I am denouncing those people who want Dark Sun to come out unchanged because they're looking to be complete monsters and they want an official D&D product to tell them it's perfectly okay to be a complete monster. That all those things I mentioned in my last post are not the realities of a broken world, but are instead super fun and cool and are a great way to pass the time in this splendid world.
I am denouncing people who want Dark Sun to make the value judgment, above the table, that cannibalism, slavery, tyranny, racism, and injustice are all super awesome and we should all support them wholeheartedly.
I'm not denouncing people who want Wizards to make the above-the-table value judgment that dancing snake cultists are awesome, though. Thank the stars for Zee Bashew.
That is why I've had it up to here with malicious misunderstanding. It's honestly why I no longer care if Dark Sun is ever released. Do I think it has the potential to be an excellent place to play a game? Of course. The Grim Hollow setting is every bit as broken and awful as Athas is usually portrayed as and those books sold like gangbusters. I personally have all three (if only one in hardcover) and am planning my next game to take place in the land of Ostoya. Which, to the uninitiated? Is a resource-poor country infested with unpredictable outbreaks of malignant undead from an Underworld beneath the surface, and which is ruled by a group of powerful vampires that have seized control of the nation and treat it like their own personal bloodbank and ant farm. It is awful, and I'm quite looking forward to smashing it and Curse of Strahd together in a blender to create my very own vampiric hellscape to subject my poor unprepared players to the next time it's my turn to DM.
The difference? My players won't get mad at me for portraying the land of Ostoya as a vampiric hellscape instead of a resort town full of delightful opportunities for some good, clean, wholesome peasant-torturing fun.
Very well said! If you don’t mind, I’m going to help you flank that point.
Have you ever been in (or heard about) a game and wanted to play a cool Orc who’s a hero, because Orcs are just kinda’ edgy, but you still want to play your hero fantasy, only to have your crummy DM says, “Sure, you can play an Orc, but Volo’s Guide to Monsters says they’re a monstrous race. That means that you might get refused service at places and called slurs in the streets, because people are naturally racist against bla-Orcs.” So you end up not having a good time? That’s what WotC is fighting against. Not evil, but written text that limits the party’s fun. DM’s can still have bands of raiding Orcs, just as much as they still have bands of human raiders. There are obvious 1 to 1 parallels between the “black skinned elves” and “the brutish sup-human species of Orcs” and the ways that Eugenicists would describe African Americans to spite the fact that people of more recent African Descent have the most diverse gene pool in the world by far… and to say, “The obviously black ones are all evil.” Is a great way to say, “We don’t like some actual real life people. Go away.”
And just to complain for a moment: All of the Gorgnards had their chance to get D&D their way. TSR and WotC are companies who aren’t producing a product for their health. It’s to make money, and the people who liked the game that way proved to be too cheap to keep the business afloat. They had their chance and lost. D&D is thriving because they’re reaching people with easier to stomach content.
Athas wouldn’t be hard to pull off to spite what everyone keeps saying. Release a box set in 2025 (because 2023 is the year of Spelljammer and 2024 will be the year of Planescape) for Dark Sun. Book 1: Setting, Monsters, and Races. Book 2: Player options and Treasure (including psionics and a siege engineer… but that’s me fanboying over siege engineers.). Book 3: An adventure where you lead a slave revolt. That’s it. Book 3, the “Let’s take down a slave ring” is the secret ingredient needed to make Athas okay. You can be in a gritty setting as long as you punch up at whatever makes the world gritty.
I’ve never played Dark Sun, but I LOVED reading the 2e Box Set, and I must have missed the memo that it isn’t Dune, because it’s 100% Dune. Aracus is a world so harsh that it makes the ultimate soldiers. Athas is a world so harsh that PC’s start off at level 3. It’s a big desert. There’s little to no magic. Paul has psychic powers. Dark Sun uses psychic powers. House Harkonen runs slave rings and makes the world even more miserable for profit. The Sorcerer Kings run slave rings and makes the world even more miserable for profit. Political Intrigue. It’s freakin’ DUNE! Most people love Dune.
Reading the 2e book mentions how the classes change. Magic Users level at half their normal speed because magic is so rare on Athas.
Fighters at 5th level, Fighters get to lead armies as big as their level × 100, and operate siege equipment and plan out war engineering, like trenches. They 100% are set up to lead the slaves to victory.
Rogues didn't change.
Lastly, there were no clerics, but instead you pretty much got a Warlock who utilized legal authority... which you couldn't do as a class in 5e, but fits into the atrophied Renown system PERFECTLY... and if you really wanted to, they could still be a "good guy" working within the system to make a second group of legit soldiers overthrow their Sorcerer King.
Again, if you actually use Athas, it isn't hard, as long as you don't make being a monster fun.
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
*But what if the Dark Sun setting book came with a workable psionics system?*
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
*But what if the Dark Sun setting book came with a workable psionics system?*
That would be great, but as some who agrees with Sposta completely about psionics, I do not believe WotC have any interest in giving us any kind of psionics “system” in 5e, let alone a good one 😔
I think it unlikely, but if they plan to release Dark Sun after 2024 redux, maybe they will be smart enough to add psionics into the core rules from the beginning instead of trying to work around it later.
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
This is 100% an honest question: How do you want Psionics handled?
I'll admit that I just want something like the UA to happen... but that was my introduction to Psionics.
After going on DM's Guild and getting all of the Psionics books, I've seen that AD&D's was lame. 2e's was overly complicated. 3e made all of 2e into one class, and then made three other subclasses which we already have in 5e.
I haven't read the 4e book yet.
The UA looks to me like they said, "How can we do 2e, but cut out all of the bad sci-fi?"
To be honest, while not great, the 4th Ed version of Psionics was at least the most balanced version that made the most sense. It was still not great, but I have long held the belief that Psionics in D&D was best left out of reach of the players because there are already enough supernatural systems to dabble in and most of them can replicate psionic abilities easily enough. So unless you plan on pulling all the mind powers away from all the other classes......
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
This is 100% an honest question: How do you want Psionics handled?
As long as it’s a unique system that provides a simple, viable, and balanced alternative to spellcasting without relying on spellcasting, I wouldn’t be too choosey.
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
This is 100% an honest question: How do you want Psionics handled?
As long as it’s a unique system that provides a simple, viable, and balanced alternative to spellcasting without relying on spellcasting, I wouldn’t be too choosey.
Yeah, but why does it have to not use the same system as spellcasting? Why can't it just be a collection of all the mind-magic and mind-reality altering spells using a system that has, for better or worse, shown to be popular and stable for most of D&D's existence?
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
*But what if the Dark Sun setting book came with a workable psionics system?*
That would be great, but as some who agrees with Sposta completely about psionics, I do not believe WotC have any interest in giving us any kind of psionics “system” in 5e, let alone a good one 😔
Just a minor correction here: WotC absolutely was interested in giving us a Psionic system. They tried 3-4 times to give us a Psionic system that was completely unconnected from Spellcasting, with the different versions of the Mystic class. They did try to give us Psionics. But the community didn't like it. Newer players didn't like having to learn a new system, the class was too unbalanced, and older players couldn't agree which edition's version of psionics they wanted updated to 5e. So the Mystic class never became popular enough to pass the 70% approval rating necessary to be published in Xanathar's, and they moved on to different implementations of psionics.
My guess is that if they do a Dark Sun book, they'll just use the Tasha's subclasses and feats with some added "Wild Talent" feat chains connected to backgrounds, like they're doing for the upcoming Dragonlance book and the UA that's probably for a Planescape book.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
This is 100% an honest question: How do you want Psionics handled?
As long as it’s a unique system that provides a simple, viable, and balanced alternative to spellcasting without relying on spellcasting, I wouldn’t be too choosey.
Yeah, but why does it have to not use the same system as spellcasting? Why can't it just be a collection of all the mind-magic and mind-reality altering spells using a system that has, for better or worse, shown to be popular and stable for most of D&D's existence?
Because then it wouldn’t be Psionics. It would just be “Magic Lite.” I’ll let Yurei explain why magic lite is unacceptable, they do it better than I can.
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
This is 100% an honest question: How do you want Psionics handled?
As long as it’s a unique system that provides a simple, viable, and balanced alternative to spellcasting without relying on spellcasting, I wouldn’t be too choosey.
Yeah, but why does it have to not use the same system as spellcasting? Why can't it just be a collection of all the mind-magic and mind-reality altering spells using a system that has, for better or worse, shown to be popular and stable for most of D&D's existence?
Because then it's just spellcasting. We already have nine spellcasting classes. We do not need more spellcasting. We already have it. There's nothing new there. This is extremely obvious to me and I genuinely just cannot relate to the mind that sincerely asks the question. If I were satisfied with using the same system as spellcasting, I'd play a wizard, which already exists.
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
*But what if the Dark Sun setting book came with a workable psionics system?*
That would be great, but as some who agrees with Sposta completely about psionics, I do not believe WotC have any interest in giving us any kind of psionics “system” in 5e, let alone a good one 😔
Just a minor correction here: WotC absolutely was interested in giving us a Psionic system. They tried 3-4 times to give us a Psionic system that was completely unconnected from Spellcasting, with the different versions of the Mystic class. They did try to give us Psionics. But the community didn't like it. Newer players didn't like having to learn a new system, the class was too unbalanced, and older players couldn't agree which edition's version of psionics they wanted updated to 5e. So the Mystic class never became popular enough to pass the 70% approval rating necessary to be published in Xanathar's, and they moved on to different implementations of psionics.
My guess is that if they do a Dark Sun book, they'll just use the Tasha's subclasses and feats with some added "Wild Talent" feat chains connected to backgrounds, like they're doing for the upcoming Dragonlance book and the UA that's probably for a Planescape book.
None of that is actually a correction; it's useful historical context for anyone who doesn't already know, for sure, but it doesn't contradict anything I said, and indeed, only reinforces it (I know everything you've said and that's why I feel the way I do).
My impression is that they just simply gave up on trying to make a separate psionics system work, because it didn't please enough people, so here we are.
Also I imagine if they had hypothetically figured something out for a psionics system, the githyanki and githzerai would be very different in their racial abilities. Possibly the kalashtar too.
Very well said! If you don’t mind, I’m going to help you flank that point.
Have you ever been in (or heard about) a game and wanted to play a cool Orc who’s a hero, because Orcs are just kinda’ edgy, but you still want to play your hero fantasy, only to have your crummy DM says, “Sure, you can play an Orc, but Volo’s Guide to Monsters says they’re a monstrous race. That means that you might get refused service at places and called slurs in the streets, because people are naturally racist against
bla-Orcs.” So you end up not having a good time? That’s what WotC is fighting against. Not evil, but written text that limits the party’s fun. DM’s can still have bands of raiding Orcs, just as much as they still have bands of human raiders. There are obvious 1 to 1 parallels between the “black skinned elves” and “the brutish sup-human species of Orcs” and the ways that Eugenicists would describe African Americans to spite the fact that people of more recent African Descent have the most diverse gene pool in the world by far… and to say, “The obviously black ones are all evil.” Is a great way to say, “We don’t like some actual real life people. Go away.”And just to complain for a moment: All of the Gorgnards had their chance to get D&D their way. TSR and WotC are companies who aren’t producing a product for their health. It’s to make money, and the people who liked the game that way proved to be too cheap to keep the business afloat. They had their chance and lost. D&D is thriving because they’re reaching people with easier to stomach content.
Athas wouldn’t be hard to pull off to spite what everyone keeps saying. Release a box set in 2025 (because 2023 is the year of Spelljammer and 2024 will be the year of Planescape) for Dark Sun. Book 1: Setting, Monsters, and Races. Book 2: Player options and Treasure (including psionics and a siege engineer… but that’s me fanboying over siege engineers.). Book 3: An adventure where you lead a slave revolt. That’s it. Book 3, the “Let’s take down a slave ring” is the secret ingredient needed to make Athas okay. You can be in a gritty setting as long as you punch up at whatever makes the world gritty.
I’ve never played Dark Sun, but I LOVED reading the 2e Box Set, and I must have missed the memo that it isn’t Dune, because it’s 100% Dune. Aracus is a world so harsh that it makes the ultimate soldiers. Athas is a world so harsh that PC’s start off at level 3. It’s a big desert. There’s little to no magic. Paul has psychic powers. Dark Sun uses psychic powers. House Harkonen runs slave rings and makes the world even more miserable for profit. The Sorcerer Kings run slave rings and makes the world even more miserable for profit. Political Intrigue. It’s freakin’ DUNE! Most people love Dune.
Sorry, there's other stuff I want to bring up.
Reading the 2e book mentions how the classes change. Magic Users level at half their normal speed because magic is so rare on Athas.
Fighters at 5th level, Fighters get to lead armies as big as their level × 100, and operate siege equipment and plan out war engineering, like trenches. They 100% are set up to lead the slaves to victory.
Rogues didn't change.
Lastly, there were no clerics, but instead you pretty much got a Warlock who utilized legal authority... which you couldn't do as a class in 5e, but fits into the atrophied Renown system PERFECTLY... and if you really wanted to, they could still be a "good guy" working within the system to make a second group of legit soldiers overthrow their Sorcerer King.
Again, if you actually use Athas, it isn't hard, as long as you don't make being a monster fun.
I wholeheartedly agree with the last four posts.
The reason I don’t want to see Dark Sun in 5e is because WotC has abandoned anything even remotely resembling a true system for Psionics this edition, and DS without propper Psionics is not a DS in which I want to play.
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*But what if the Dark Sun setting book came with a workable psionics system?*
That would be great, but as some who agrees with Sposta completely about psionics, I do not believe WotC have any interest in giving us any kind of psionics “system” in 5e, let alone a good one 😔
I think it unlikely, but if they plan to release Dark Sun after 2024 redux, maybe they will be smart enough to add psionics into the core rules from the beginning instead of trying to work around it later.
I said it was unlikely...
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This is 100% an honest question: How do you want Psionics handled?
I'll admit that I just want something like the UA to happen... but that was my introduction to Psionics.
After going on DM's Guild and getting all of the Psionics books, I've seen that AD&D's was lame. 2e's was overly complicated. 3e made all of 2e into one class, and then made three other subclasses which we already have in 5e.
I haven't read the 4e book yet.
The UA looks to me like they said, "How can we do 2e, but cut out all of the bad sci-fi?"
To be honest, while not great, the 4th Ed version of Psionics was at least the most balanced version that made the most sense. It was still not great, but I have long held the belief that Psionics in D&D was best left out of reach of the players because there are already enough supernatural systems to dabble in and most of them can replicate psionic abilities easily enough. So unless you plan on pulling all the mind powers away from all the other classes......
As long as it’s a unique system that provides a simple, viable, and balanced alternative to spellcasting without relying on spellcasting, I wouldn’t be too choosey.
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Yeah, but why does it have to not use the same system as spellcasting? Why can't it just be a collection of all the mind-magic and mind-reality altering spells using a system that has, for better or worse, shown to be popular and stable for most of D&D's existence?
Just a minor correction here: WotC absolutely was interested in giving us a Psionic system. They tried 3-4 times to give us a Psionic system that was completely unconnected from Spellcasting, with the different versions of the Mystic class. They did try to give us Psionics. But the community didn't like it. Newer players didn't like having to learn a new system, the class was too unbalanced, and older players couldn't agree which edition's version of psionics they wanted updated to 5e. So the Mystic class never became popular enough to pass the 70% approval rating necessary to be published in Xanathar's, and they moved on to different implementations of psionics.
My guess is that if they do a Dark Sun book, they'll just use the Tasha's subclasses and feats with some added "Wild Talent" feat chains connected to backgrounds, like they're doing for the upcoming Dragonlance book and the UA that's probably for a Planescape book.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Because then it wouldn’t be Psionics. It would just be “Magic Lite.” I’ll let Yurei explain why magic lite is unacceptable, they do it better than I can.
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Because then it's just spellcasting. We already have nine spellcasting classes. We do not need more spellcasting. We already have it. There's nothing new there. This is extremely obvious to me and I genuinely just cannot relate to the mind that sincerely asks the question. If I were satisfied with using the same system as spellcasting, I'd play a wizard, which already exists.
None of that is actually a correction; it's useful historical context for anyone who doesn't already know, for sure, but it doesn't contradict anything I said, and indeed, only reinforces it (I know everything you've said and that's why I feel the way I do).
New Psionics question: What if they were spells that didn't use spell slots?
My impression is that they just simply gave up on trying to make a separate psionics system work, because it didn't please enough people, so here we are.
Nope, still just spells.
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Also I imagine if they had hypothetically figured something out for a psionics system, the githyanki and githzerai would be very different in their racial abilities. Possibly the kalashtar too.
Oof. I was bait-n-switched into yet another thread on 5e psionics. Maybe 4e was right to make every class the same just to sidestep this quagmire.