Druids (and clerics, for that matter) can't make the powdered silver needed for holy water. So, does it really matter they can't make holy water? It's thematical for clerics and paladins, but seems less so for druids. If your druid needs it, having to seek it out seems no more or less appropriate than having to seek out powdered silver in order to then be able to make it.
Pardon? How do Clerics or Paladins make powdered silver? Where do any of them get it, exactly?
I explicitly said they can't. I assume they get it from an alchemist or magical emporium or something.
Sorry if I was unclear. Meant that there is no particular reason that anyone of any class could not file down silver to make powdered silver themselves.
I assume powdered silver is a bit more complicated to make than filing down solid objects and requires some actual skill and specific equipment, but that's up to the DM.
Regardless of the process, it is almost certainly an artisan tool related task and tools can be learned by any class. Yes, exact details up to the DM, but should not be an obstacle by class.
Absolutely, but it's not built into any class. Same with, say, gems (no class comes with a skill to mine/cut/polish/appraise gems) or trinkets or specific types of rock. My point, to clarify, is that the system doesn't assume all druids or all clerics have ready access to powdered silver, just like it doesn't assume casters have ready access to valuable/unusual components in general (in fact, it seems to assume the opposite) and that's fine. It's not an error or bug.
Why would *any* class be unable to use a simple tool such as a file? You do realize that there is quite a huge difference between cutting gemstones and just filing someothing?
Why would *any* class be unable to use a simple tool such as a file? You do realize that there is quite a huge difference between cutting gemstones and just filing someothing?
This depends on how you define "powder". Personally I'd consider filing down a bit of silver not good/fine enough. Perfectly ok if you go another route with this.
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After due consideration, I've decided that I'm going to make a change in my game. I only present this so people can see it, I don't think anyone else would bother to do it in their own games. I'm not really going to change anything but the part about Druids being able to make Sacred Water, but there is a certain logic that says I could do this:
Salt has a long association with fighting the forces of the unnatural. If you think Undead are natural, I don't understand why, and you should probably stop reading now.
Druids can collect rain water to make Sacred Water with a pinch of salt and the Druidcraft cantrip, which has the same effect as Holy Water when used against the Undead.
Rangers are not as closely associated with the forces of Nature as Druids are, and cannot make Sacred Water.
Paladins cannot directly create Holy Water. They don't worship gods, they follow Oaths. I might allow some Paladins to transform Sacred Water into Holy Water, if their Oaths had anything to do with fighting the Undead.
Clerics of the Grave, Death or Forge domains can create Holy Water. It requires 25 silver coins, ground into dust, and a pinch of iron filings that could be created with a simple file.
It takes little higher level spell to do something so completely unnatural as make silver dissolve in water, that's why noble metals in general are prized.
It would take very specialized tools to reduce silver to dust.
Holy Water remains at the same price, the mark up is for the time and trouble it takes to make it.
Sacred Water costs 5 silver, the salt is essentially free, and the cost there is because it can take a little time to gather that much rainwater in some seasons and types of terrain.
Snow is just rain that gets very cold, and a handful or two would be enough to make Sacred Water.
Sacred Water tastes sweet. It is after all, transformed by magic, and is only unpleasant to the undead. Druids with access to saltwater can use it to make Sacred Water without much effort and only a few moments.
I don't think Undead are able to notice the flavor, but it would taste like saltwater to them if they were to drink it and they could.
I Imagine a powerful Undead, like a Lich drinking Sacred Water in a shot glass, taking the trivial damage, and saying it tasted "smooth".
I consider the price of Holy Water kind of silly. People powerful enough to create it have better ways to damage the undead.
It's really only the common folk who need Sacred Water, since they themselves have little access to magic of any kind, and who else needs it more?
Despite wether or not anyone can make silver powder it seems odd to me that people seem to think classes need to make theircomponents (like a Druid making their own holy water). Does the cleric have to make the oils, incense, gold pendants, diamond dust, or any other odd component in their spell list that gets consumed? Or do they go somewhere and just buy them.
And I don’t believe you have to be dependent on clerics or paladins for it. Any holy institution or church could provide holy water to the Druid or any character for that matter. The process a church makes holy water, in a consecrated place devoted to their god may be different than for a cleric or paladin making it in the field.
Salt has a long association with fighting the forces of the unnatural. If you think Undead are natural, I don't understand why, and you should probably stop reading now.
Druids can collect rain water to make Sacred Water with a pinch of salt and the Druidcraft cantrip, which has the same effect as Holy Water when used against the Undead.
My wife is Wiccan, she purifies rain water by adding kosher salt for her rites. (I’m Roman Catholic, my priest just makes the sign of the cross and mumbles a prayer and tap water becomes holy water, not powdered silver (or salt) required.)
Salt holds such an connotation of purity since it was one of the first discovered and most reliable methods for preserving food. In fact, Roman soldiers were payed in salt, the origin of the word “salary.” (Salis = salt in Latin.)
The superstition about throwing spilled salt over one’s shoulder stemmed from what a big deal it was to wast such an important substance that it was seen as tantamount to sin/evil. That would be just enough to allow the devil that walks behind everyone’s left* heel to run up and grab ahold of a person. To ward off the devil, one had to pinch up some of that spilled salt specifically with the right hand* if possible, and throw it specifically over the left shoulder since that’s which side the devil is on. (In Latin, ”left” = “sinistram” in Italian it is “sinistra.”) The left side is “the sinister side,” that’s why one’s guardian Angel sits specifically on their right shoulder.
I actually wrote a term paper once on the evolution of superstitions.
*(IRL in regards to magical theory, energy comes in on the left side and goes out on the right side. So incoming energy should ideally be blocked*^ with one’s left hand, and outgoing energy projected with the right hand. Throwing the salt with the right hand allows you to better project the protective and life preserving energy inherent in the salt to cast off the devil’s influence.) *^(Aware of the Italian tradition of making the sign of the horns (🤘) as a ward against evil? Best to make it with the left hand. People thinks it’s supposed to represent “devil’s horns,” but in fact it is the opposite, The evil energy enters in through the leftmost horn (pinky), and then redirects back to the source through the rightmost horn (index finger). It is a useful ward against things such as a strange black cat crossing one’s path, or the evil eye in a peacock feather. A “familiar” black cat portends no such ill fortune.)
While Druid may not be able to create holy water, most spell they can cast with such component won't be consumed and therefore undeeded, since their spellcasting focus or component pouch will be working.
Why would *any* class be unable to use a simple tool such as a file? You do realize that there is quite a huge difference between cutting gemstones and just filing someothing?
This depends on how you define "powder". Personally I'd consider filing down a bit of silver not good/fine enough. Perfectly ok if you go another route with this.
Ah, you want to move the goalposts? Sure. But could you at least answer the questions? How do you think silver powder is made if not by filing?
Despite wether or not anyone can make silver powder it seems odd to me that people seem to think classes need to make theircomponents (like a Druid making their own holy water). Does the cleric have to make the oils, incense, gold pendants, diamond dust, or any other odd component in their spell list that gets consumed? Or do they go somewhere and just buy them.
idea being the crafting rules allow you to make mundane stuff for half the item's selling cost....but it doesn't work for holy water as this is one of the rather unique mundane items where the sell price is the same as the declared cost of the ingredients.
Depends on the file you use - maybe a course rasp is too large but a fine file produces a finer powder that your happy with. Or you can use a grinding process like I described earlier to get pretty much any fineness you want.
However, the original question was about creating holy water to have to caste the regenerate spell. Easiest way to cover this is to make it lore in your world that regenerate was created by a cleric and druids learned it (& its components) from him. As a 13+ level Druid the cost of the holy water isn’t so high as to make any Druid work on finding an alternate.
Giann, not sure why your going to all that including the major rules change of allowing braids to have effects like a cleric against undead and fiends - the above handles it without balancing rules changes and just a slight tweak of lore.
I have a habit of going into too much detail to get my point across. I don't see any reason why Druids, who considers all of nature to be Holy, can't use some water and make it so that it is so for other people who want to use it.
I think ceremony grade powdered metal can be recognized as something that could require some proficiency to produce. It's not like you're grating cheese for a pizza, and even in that case foodies can distinguish between well grated and grated by someone who didn't know what they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are "artisanal grades" in powdered substances used for rituals.
I mean especially given 'Sposta reminder of how literally handwavium holy water is in many RL faiths, the 25 GP worth of silver is likely a control to prevent players from getting the bright idea of turning a lake into holy water, etc.
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I have a habit of going into too much detail to get my point across. I don't see any reason why Druids, who considers all of nature to be Holy, can't use some water and make it so that it is so for other people who want to use it.
Why not? Is it really that game breaking?
I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to make a special water either - HOWEVER, it shouldn’t be effective against undead and fiends - that is the cleric’s job and taking it over IS game breaking, if you wanted the Druid’s “spiritual water” to be effective against say Fey and Shadow creatures I could see that as being reasonable and probably not game breaking.
I think ceremony grade powdered metal can be recognized as something that could require some proficiency to produce. It's not like you're grating cheese for a pizza, and even in that case foodies can distinguish between well grated and grated by someone who didn't know what they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are "artisanal grades" in powdered substances used for rituals.
I mean especially given 'Sposta reminder of how literally handwavium holy water is in many RL faiths, the 25 GP worth of silver is likely a control to prevent players from getting the bright idea of turning a lake into holy water, etc.
The only real differences in powders would be in grain size and impurity content. All powders are made the same way - grind it down and wash out the impurities. To get the size you want you sieve the powder and regrind the excessively course materials. Th get rid of impurities you wash or float either the impurities away or the material you want and then dry the material. Silver is a fairly soft but dense metal, after grinding a simple wash live panning/sluicing will eliminate essentially all the abrasive grit used. You want even less? Double or triple rinse it. Still a really simple process - no “artisanal” nonsense.
I think ceremony grade powdered metal can be recognized as something that could require some proficiency to produce. It's not like you're grating cheese for a pizza, and even in that case foodies can distinguish between well grated and grated by someone who didn't know what they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are "artisanal grades" in powdered substances used for rituals.
I mean especially given 'Sposta reminder of how literally handwavium holy water is in many RL faiths, the 25 GP worth of silver is likely a control to prevent players from getting the bright idea of turning a lake into holy water, etc.
The only real differences in powders would be in grain size and impurity content. All powders are made the same way - grind it down and wash out the impurities. To get the size you want you sieve the powder and regrind the excessively course materials. Th get rid of impurities you wash or float either the impurities away or the material you want and then dry the material. Silver is a fairly soft but dense metal, after grinding a simple wash live panning/sluicing will eliminate essentially all the abrasive grit used. You want even less? Double or triple rinse it. Still a really simple process - no “artisanal” nonsense.
And the controls for adulterants or otherwise maintenance of "purity" throughout the process and packaging and transport? Yeah, the process is simple, but if we're talking reverential acts, there is "care" involved, which you're free to denigrate as nonsense but that seems more like personality leakage than actually a constructive contention. I mean there's whole industries supporting the preparation of foodstuffs in accords to religious cleanliness standards. Yeah, you can dismiss those as literal hogwash or whatever, and maybe you like your game to cut to the quick and not really care about things beyond simple mechanical function; but for a lot of folks it's fun to enrich their game with such trappings. It's probably while sure for a lot of people today they can get buy in sweat pants and a t-shirt, but for many it's important to don one's "Sunday best." ;)
Even with cheeses it’s not the grating that is artisanal, it’s the quality and sourcing of the cheese that is artisanal. Cut a cheese in half an and give one half to a chef to grate then when they are done give the other half and the same grate to some oaf off the street and have them grate it and the chef won’t be able to tell who grated which pile in a blind sampling. The chef will be able to tell hand made from the best resources cheese from the commercial mass produced cheap copy.
Even with cheeses it’s not the grating that is artisanal, it’s the quality and sourcing of the cheese that is artisanal. Cut a cheese in half an and give one half to a chef to grate then when they are done give the other half and the same grate to some oaf off the street and have them grate it and the chef won’t be able to tell who grated which pile in a blind sampling. The chef will be able to tell hand made from the best resources cheese from the commercial mass produced cheap copy.
Preparation and presentation matters, not just the substances. That's why we have tiers of dining, it's not just the expense of the ingredients, it's how they're handled and put together.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It’s more about recognizing where to put in the effort not denigrating stuff. Those religious food preparations actually have factual reasons for them when you look closer in most cases. Could you have preparations of powdered silver, etc marketed by different churches for their cleric’s use and they aren’t supposed to use a different church’s preparation? Sure wouldn’t surprise me at all. But it also wouldn’t surprise me if when you traced back the silver powders it turned out that one dwarven clan had a monopoly and shipping the same stuff to different churches either in each church’s packaging, or more likely in bulk lots for the church to repackage as needed.
Ideally you get both beautiful presentation and high quality food, but have spent small fortunes on beautifully presented garbage and had exquisite food very plainly and simply presented elsewhere. Of the two I’ll take great food forget the presentation.
It’s more about recognizing where to put in the effort not denigrating stuff. Those religious food preparations actually have factual reasons for them when you look closer in most cases. Could you have preparations of powdered silver, etc marketed by different churches for their cleric’s use and they aren’t supposed to use a different church’s preparation? Sure wouldn’t surprise me at all. But it also wouldn’t surprise me if when you traced back the silver powders it turned out that one dwarven clan had a monopoly and shipping the same stuff to different churches either in each church’s packaging, or more likely in bulk lots for the church to repackage as needed.
Ideally you get both beautiful presentation and high quality food, but have spent small fortunes on beautifully presented garbage and had exquisite food very plainly and simply presented elsewhere. Of the two I’ll take great food forget the presentation.
now can we try to get back to the OP’s question?
The food analogy was a ready at hand example to underscore my point that "care" in spell making, especially those calling upon the divine, can be at play regardless of your callous reduction to a basic extraction process and dismissal of any further care as "nonsense." Yes, there were likely health reasons at the roots of some RL faith food handling practices. Magic doesn't "really" work but in a fantastic setting where it does how the sacred is literally handled or brought into the material plane is open to arbitration. And these arbitrations and loose ends of mechanics are what the discussion had gone into prior to your contribution well after the OP's question had been answered. Posting here is now pretty much to be entertained by the subject and fellow posters, otherwise the OP would have likely requested clarification or a redirect. You know, regular D&D Beyond Stuff.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Midnight I think it is time to end this discussion between the two of us. You are right I think the idea of “ceremony grade” powdered metal is ridiculous. I think an earlier poster had the right idea when he recognized that modern “holy water” is just tap water that some priest blessed in a ceremony. When adding holy water to wine to magically help the wine spiritually turn into Christ’s blood I can accept the magic behind the idea but what was happening for most of Christian history was that the alcohol in the wine was making the water safe to drink. Calling for 25 GP of powdered silver was to make it and it’s effects on undead and fiends limited by the cost. if you want to have ceremony grade I’m not trying to tell you you can’t - it’s your campaign do what you will. All I was really trying to do is explain what seemed to be a misunderstanding of method, not a product of religious labeling. To get a powder of anything you break it down int particles by grinding and scratching. After that it’s up to you.
Why would *any* class be unable to use a simple tool such as a file? You do realize that there is quite a huge difference between cutting gemstones and just filing someothing?
This depends on how you define "powder". Personally I'd consider filing down a bit of silver not good/fine enough. Perfectly ok if you go another route with this.
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After due consideration, I've decided that I'm going to make a change in my game. I only present this so people can see it, I don't think anyone else would bother to do it in their own games. I'm not really going to change anything but the part about Druids being able to make Sacred Water, but there is a certain logic that says I could do this:
<Insert clever signature here>
Despite wether or not anyone can make silver powder it seems odd to me that people seem to think classes need to make their components (like a Druid making their own holy water). Does the cleric have to make the oils, incense, gold pendants, diamond dust, or any other odd component in their spell list that gets consumed? Or do they go somewhere and just buy them.
And I don’t believe you have to be dependent on clerics or paladins for it. Any holy institution or church could provide holy water to the Druid or any character for that matter. The process a church makes holy water, in a consecrated place devoted to their god may be different than for a cleric or paladin making it in the field.
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My wife is Wiccan, she purifies rain water by adding kosher salt for her rites. (I’m Roman Catholic, my priest just makes the sign of the cross and mumbles a prayer and tap water becomes holy water, not powdered silver (or salt) required.)
Salt holds such an connotation of purity since it was one of the first discovered and most reliable methods for preserving food. In fact, Roman soldiers were payed in salt, the origin of the word “salary.” (Salis = salt in Latin.)
The superstition about throwing spilled salt over one’s shoulder stemmed from what a big deal it was to wast such an important substance that it was seen as tantamount to sin/evil. That would be just enough to allow the devil that walks behind everyone’s left* heel to run up and grab ahold of a person. To ward off the devil, one had to pinch up some of that spilled salt specifically with the right hand* if possible, and throw it specifically over the left shoulder since that’s which side the devil is on. (In Latin, ”left” = “sinistram” in Italian it is “sinistra.”) The left side is “the sinister side,” that’s why one’s guardian Angel sits specifically on their right shoulder.
I actually wrote a term paper once on the evolution of superstitions.
*(IRL in regards to magical theory, energy comes in on the left side and goes out on the right side. So incoming energy should ideally be blocked*^ with one’s left hand, and outgoing energy projected with the right hand. Throwing the salt with the right hand allows you to better project the protective and life preserving energy inherent in the salt to cast off the devil’s influence.)
*^(Aware of the Italian tradition of making the sign of the horns (🤘) as a ward against evil? Best to make it with the left hand. People thinks it’s supposed to represent “devil’s horns,” but in fact it is the opposite, The evil energy enters in through the leftmost horn (pinky), and then redirects back to the source through the rightmost horn (index finger). It is a useful ward against things such as a strange black cat crossing one’s path, or the evil eye in a peacock feather. A “familiar” black cat portends no such ill fortune.)
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While Druid may not be able to create holy water, most spell they can cast with such component won't be consumed and therefore undeeded, since their spellcasting focus or component pouch will be working.
Ah, you want to move the goalposts? Sure. But could you at least answer the questions? How do you think silver powder is made if not by filing?
idea being the crafting rules allow you to make mundane stuff for half the item's selling cost....but it doesn't work for holy water as this is one of the rather unique mundane items where the sell price is the same as the declared cost of the ingredients.
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Depends on the file you use - maybe a course rasp is too large but a fine file produces a finer powder that your happy with. Or you can use a grinding process like I described earlier to get pretty much any fineness you want.
However, the original question was about creating holy water to have to caste the regenerate spell. Easiest way to cover this is to make it lore in your world that regenerate was created by a cleric and druids learned it (& its components) from him. As a 13+ level Druid the cost of the holy water isn’t so high as to make any Druid work on finding an alternate.
Giann, not sure why your going to all that including the major rules change of allowing braids to have effects like a cleric against undead and fiends - the above handles it without balancing rules changes and just a slight tweak of lore.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I have a habit of going into too much detail to get my point across. I don't see any reason why Druids, who considers all of nature to be Holy, can't use some water and make it so that it is so for other people who want to use it.
Why not? Is it really that game breaking?
<Insert clever signature here>
I think ceremony grade powdered metal can be recognized as something that could require some proficiency to produce. It's not like you're grating cheese for a pizza, and even in that case foodies can distinguish between well grated and grated by someone who didn't know what they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are "artisanal grades" in powdered substances used for rituals.
I mean especially given 'Sposta reminder of how literally handwavium holy water is in many RL faiths, the 25 GP worth of silver is likely a control to prevent players from getting the bright idea of turning a lake into holy water, etc.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to make a special water either - HOWEVER, it shouldn’t be effective against undead and fiends - that is the cleric’s job and taking it over IS game breaking, if you wanted the Druid’s “spiritual water” to be effective against say Fey and Shadow creatures I could see that as being reasonable and probably not game breaking.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The only real differences in powders would be in grain size and impurity content. All powders are made the same way - grind it down and wash out the impurities. To get the size you want you sieve the powder and regrind the excessively course materials. Th get rid of impurities you wash or float either the impurities away or the material you want and then dry the material. Silver is a fairly soft but dense metal, after grinding a simple wash live panning/sluicing will eliminate essentially all the abrasive grit used. You want even less? Double or triple rinse it. Still a really simple process - no “artisanal” nonsense.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
And the controls for adulterants or otherwise maintenance of "purity" throughout the process and packaging and transport? Yeah, the process is simple, but if we're talking reverential acts, there is "care" involved, which you're free to denigrate as nonsense but that seems more like personality leakage than actually a constructive contention. I mean there's whole industries supporting the preparation of foodstuffs in accords to religious cleanliness standards. Yeah, you can dismiss those as literal hogwash or whatever, and maybe you like your game to cut to the quick and not really care about things beyond simple mechanical function; but for a lot of folks it's fun to enrich their game with such trappings. It's probably while sure for a lot of people today they can get buy in sweat pants and a t-shirt, but for many it's important to don one's "Sunday best." ;)
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Even with cheeses it’s not the grating that is artisanal, it’s the quality and sourcing of the cheese that is artisanal. Cut a cheese in half an and give one half to a chef to grate then when they are done give the other half and the same grate to some oaf off the street and have them grate it and the chef won’t be able to tell who grated which pile in a blind sampling. The chef will be able to tell hand made from the best resources cheese from the commercial mass produced cheap copy.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Preparation and presentation matters, not just the substances. That's why we have tiers of dining, it's not just the expense of the ingredients, it's how they're handled and put together.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It’s more about recognizing where to put in the effort not denigrating stuff. Those religious food preparations actually have factual reasons for them when you look closer in most cases. Could you have preparations of powdered silver, etc marketed by different churches for their cleric’s use and they aren’t supposed to use a different church’s preparation? Sure wouldn’t surprise me at all. But it also wouldn’t surprise me if when you traced back the silver powders it turned out that one dwarven clan had a monopoly and shipping the same stuff to different churches either in each church’s packaging, or more likely in bulk lots for the church to repackage as needed.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Ideally you get both beautiful presentation and high quality food, but have spent small fortunes on beautifully presented garbage and had exquisite food very plainly and simply presented elsewhere. Of the two I’ll take great food forget the presentation.
now can we try to get back to the OP’s question?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The food analogy was a ready at hand example to underscore my point that "care" in spell making, especially those calling upon the divine, can be at play regardless of your callous reduction to a basic extraction process and dismissal of any further care as "nonsense." Yes, there were likely health reasons at the roots of some RL faith food handling practices. Magic doesn't "really" work but in a fantastic setting where it does how the sacred is literally handled or brought into the material plane is open to arbitration. And these arbitrations and loose ends of mechanics are what the discussion had gone into prior to your contribution well after the OP's question had been answered. Posting here is now pretty much to be entertained by the subject and fellow posters, otherwise the OP would have likely requested clarification or a redirect. You know, regular D&D Beyond Stuff.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Midnight I think it is time to end this discussion between the two of us. You are right I think the idea of “ceremony grade” powdered metal is ridiculous. I think an earlier poster had the right idea when he recognized that modern “holy water” is just tap water that some priest blessed in a ceremony. When adding holy water to wine to magically help the wine spiritually turn into Christ’s blood I can accept the magic behind the idea but what was happening for most of Christian history was that the alcohol in the wine was making the water safe to drink. Calling for 25 GP of powdered silver was to make it and it’s effects on undead and fiends limited by the cost. if you want to have ceremony grade I’m not trying to tell you you can’t - it’s your campaign do what you will. All I was really trying to do is explain what seemed to be a misunderstanding of method, not a product of religious labeling. To get a powder of anything you break it down int particles by grinding and scratching. After that it’s up to you.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.