I think of the opening parkour chase scene between Bond and unidentified bad guy in Casino Royale.
...which is a perfect example of someone using Strength + Athletics (Bond) versus someone using Dexterity + Acrobatics.
Bond is not the perfect case here; ""Ocean's twelve"" movie is a better choice here...
Ocean's 12 wasn't in the clip that MP linked to. It was a clip of Bond versus a parkourist. In that clip it was a perfect example of someone using Strength + Athletics (Bond) versus someone using Dexterity + Acrobatics. Since it wasn't a clip from Ocean's Twelve, that movie was irrelevant for the clip actually being linked to. So yes, Bond is the perfect example (not 'case') "here" since "here" didn't include Ocean's XII.
The entry for Constitution Check says that no skills apply to it being more passive. DMs can always decide to sill apply a skill such as Athletics or Survival if he think it's appropriate though
Constitution Checks: Constitution checks are uncommon, and no skills apply to Constitution checks, because the endurance this ability represents is largely passive rather than involving a specific effort on the part of a character or monster. A Constitution check can model your attempt to push beyond normal limits, however
Yeah, this is why I'm against an endurance skill. I think of a skill as something in particular you 'do.'
It may be approrpiate to do a skill check swapping out con in cases where you're testing the character's endurance as they perform that skill, or a general con check or save for endurance. But that feels too broad to me for a 'skill.' Name a skill and I can describe something the character is actively doing. Looking/listening for something, examining for clues, climbing, doing a backflip, trying to recall information about history or magic etc.
While you can when context fits swap the ability score of a skill, the skill should be able to stand on its own for what you're doing. Endurance just sounds like the cases where you might use CON instead of the standard ability score rather than being something that would serve well as a skill.
I understand we have constitution save. But it would be nice to be able to have Expertise in such things. Such as a Marathon Runner who dedicated to training their endurance for running.
Plus it would be nice to have a skill for Constitution.
Being able to run a marathon is an example of training to have an above average Constitution. Right?
That’s when, as a DM, one would call for a Constitution (Athletics) check. Or if someone wanted to swim a great distance, like swimming the English Channel. Or if somebody was attempting to climb really high too. Basically any time someone is exerting themselves for a significant period of time. Your Constitution represents your physical aptitude, the Athletics proficiency represents endurance training. I regularly try to make use of the Variant rule regarding different abilities with different skills whenever it makes sense. They even specifically call out Con (Athletics) checks for extended periods of exertion in that section.
Normally, your proficiency in a skill applies only to a specific kind of ability check. Proficiency in Athletics, for example, usually applies to Strength checks. In some situations, though, your proficiency might reasonably apply to a different kind of check. In such cases, the DM might ask for a check using an unusual combination of ability and skill, or you might ask your DM if you can apply a proficiency to a different check. For example, if you have to swim from an offshore island to the mainland, your DM might call for a Constitution check to see if you have the stamina to make it that far. In this case, your DM might allow you to apply your proficiency in Athletics and ask for a Constitution (Athletics) check. So if you're proficient in Athletics, you apply your proficiency bonus to the Constitution check just as you would normally do for a Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, when your half-‐‑orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (Intimidation) check, even though Intimidation is normally associated with Charisma.
Heck, if combat goes longer than 6 or 7 rounds it should probably call for a Con (Athletics) check to be perfectly honest. I know that’s sposta only be less than a minute’s worth of exertion, which wouldn’t normally be any big thing for any reasonably healthy individual. But the amount of "fighting” a D&D character can theoretically do in that amount of time would probably be more analogous to a full 5 minute round of an MMA fight, or at least a 3 minute round of boxing. Ever seen an MMA fighter after the first round? They’re starting to breath a li’l heavy. By the end of a standard 3-round fight they have clearly heavily exerted themselves. After a 5-round title fight they’re absolutely gassed. A typical boxing match only goes 4-6 rounds, even title fights only go to 12 rounds these days. There hasn’t been a15 round bout that I know of in, what, 40ish years? Not since I was a little kid at any rate, so sometime in the early ‘80s. Go pick up a a 5-10 lb shield and a 2-3 lb sword (realistic weights, not D&D weights) and swing ‘em around for a few minutes and you’ll probably start breathing a li’l heavier if you’re reasonably healthy, and absolutely panting if you’re an average overweight, out of shape American (like myself). After 10 minutes… fo’getaboutit. So, if you want to make fighting feel more realistic then call for a Con (Athletics) check after the 6th round and if they fail they get a level of temporary exhaustion that goes away after a short or long rest. That’ll also serve to encourage short resting too.
There's no need to do any constitution checks for combat. Six or seven rounds is only less than a minute of real time. Just off the top of my head the only time I know of to check for exhaustion is for some kind of traveling over long distances.
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Bond is not the perfect case here; ""Ocean's twelve"" movie is a better choice here...
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Ocean's 12 wasn't in the clip that MP linked to. It was a clip of Bond versus a parkourist. In that clip it was a perfect example of someone using Strength + Athletics (Bond) versus someone using Dexterity + Acrobatics. Since it wasn't a clip from Ocean's Twelve, that movie was irrelevant for the clip actually being linked to. So yes, Bond is the perfect example (not 'case') "here" since "here" didn't include Ocean's XII.
Yeah, this is why I'm against an endurance skill. I think of a skill as something in particular you 'do.'
It may be approrpiate to do a skill check swapping out con in cases where you're testing the character's endurance as they perform that skill, or a general con check or save for endurance. But that feels too broad to me for a 'skill.' Name a skill and I can describe something the character is actively doing. Looking/listening for something, examining for clues, climbing, doing a backflip, trying to recall information about history or magic etc.
While you can when context fits swap the ability score of a skill, the skill should be able to stand on its own for what you're doing. Endurance just sounds like the cases where you might use CON instead of the standard ability score rather than being something that would serve well as a skill.
That's the problem though isn't it. Anything you can do as a skill for con can just be used as a save.
Well, I have been known to call for Constitution (Athletics) checks on more than one occasion.
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Being able to run a marathon is an example of training to have an above average Constitution. Right?
That’s when, as a DM, one would call for a Constitution (Athletics) check. Or if someone wanted to swim a great distance, like swimming the English Channel. Or if somebody was attempting to climb really high too. Basically any time someone is exerting themselves for a significant period of time. Your Constitution represents your physical aptitude, the Athletics proficiency represents endurance training. I regularly try to make use of the Variant rule regarding different abilities with different skills whenever it makes sense. They even specifically call out Con (Athletics) checks for extended periods of exertion in that section.
Heck, if combat goes longer than 6 or 7 rounds it should probably call for a Con (Athletics) check to be perfectly honest. I know that’s sposta only be less than a minute’s worth of exertion, which wouldn’t normally be any big thing for any reasonably healthy individual. But the amount of "fighting” a D&D character can theoretically do in that amount of time would probably be more analogous to a full 5 minute round of an MMA fight, or at least a 3 minute round of boxing. Ever seen an MMA fighter after the first round? They’re starting to breath a li’l heavy. By the end of a standard 3-round fight they have clearly heavily exerted themselves. After a 5-round title fight they’re absolutely gassed. A typical boxing match only goes 4-6 rounds, even title fights only go to 12 rounds these days. There hasn’t been a15 round bout that I know of in, what, 40ish years? Not since I was a little kid at any rate, so sometime in the early ‘80s. Go pick up a a 5-10 lb shield and a 2-3 lb sword (realistic weights, not D&D weights) and swing ‘em around for a few minutes and you’ll probably start breathing a li’l heavier if you’re reasonably healthy, and absolutely panting if you’re an average overweight, out of shape American (like myself). After 10 minutes… fo’getaboutit. So, if you want to make fighting feel more realistic then call for a Con (Athletics) check after the 6th round and if they fail they get a level of temporary exhaustion that goes away after a short or long rest. That’ll also serve to encourage short resting too.
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There's no need to do any constitution checks for combat. Six or seven rounds is only less than a minute of real time. Just off the top of my head the only time I know of to check for exhaustion is for some kind of traveling over long distances.