DM your game and play in the other game. The admonition about DMs not making good players is an extension of the "meta gaming" knowledge which can lead to "back seat DMing." You run your game your way. The DM runs your game their way. Sure you're going to notice differences, and that might be helpful for you as a DM in thinking about your own DMing. But don't use what you know, or think you know, about DMing as a means to challenge or "intervene" when you think the game you're playing in is being done "wrong." Yes, as a player you can question, politely, a DMs ruling or handling. Just don't do it in way that disrupts the game or undermines the DMs running.
If at all possible, I'd recommend playing as a player through an adventure in the other DMs group before establishing yourself as a DM. The reason why I say that as if you actually spend some time as a player, it helps you build your game as DM with actual player perspective in mind. A lot of folks who start out as a DM without player experience build adventures that are more catered to a story the DM wants to tell rather than an adventure that gives players an opportunity to play. It's a subtle thing, but incorporating "player perspective" into the game is something that's often overlooked by starter DMs.
I don't think you have to finish a campaign as a player before you start DMing. Campaigns can go on for years. Some never end. You just need to get some experience under your belt. Maybe get to level 5. And as the campaign you DM goes on, you'll be laying the tracks by continuing to play in your player campaign, learning higher level play.
I would like to point out that there is a difference between a DMPC and a PNPC. A DMPC is a DM playing in their own campaign. That never works out for tons of reasons. A PNPC is an NPC that basically tags along with the party and is at their disposal. Some DMs do this when there aren’t enough players and it is totally a fantastic idea for many reasons.
The significant differences are in the degree of active RP and amount of autonomy the character has. If the character is an active participant in the campaign that is a DMPC. If instead the character only really pipes up to maybe point out something that the PCs ready know but maybe the players forgot;* or they only help when asked by a PC, or if the players get genuinely stuck and have stopped having fun; and in combat they get narrated as helping but don’t really do much but buff the party,** so all they really do is help the PCs feel more epic to their players. A PNPC is not he one that gets sent to deliver a message so the PCs can do something more interesting. A PNPC is the one that gets left behind to cast identify all afternoon so the PCs can go do something more interesting. A PNPC gets kidnapped periodically so the PC have something interesting to do. *(Because for example from the PC’s perspective it was 4 hours ago but for the players it was 4 weeks.) **(Because maybe things went pear shaped and there’s no cleric for example.)
Starting to see a pattern? A DMPC takes away stuff to do from the PCs and therefore saps their players’ fun. A PNPC enables the PCs to do more stuff and therefore their players get to have more fun. A PNPC is basically like a sidekick for the entire party and run by the DM so nobody gets to bicker over who’s turn it is to run Fred the Ostler. The biggest problem with a PNPC is the risk of it accidentally morphing into a DMPC. Avoiding that can be tricky.
I have always called what you describe as an NPC... never really saw a need for a qualifier prefix to it.
They are an NPC, but a PNPC is unique compared to the rest of the population of the multiverse. Other NPCs don’t tag along with the party on adventures with (as far as the players notice*) the specific intent of being their gofor/PA. Other NPCs don’t take a turn at watch, share personal histories around the campfire, bunk with the Party whenever rooms are acquired at an inn, or share in the Party’s triumphs and tribulations.
The next closest thing would be the three retainers granted as the Knight background’s special Trait. Those are explicitly prohibited from even being narrated as participating in combat other than to run and hide. The players end up developing a different relationship with (and attachment to) a PNPC than they do with any other NPCs. They end up sortakinda treating a PNPC as one of their own.
Believe it or not, I have seen Players get just as upset over the death of a PNPC as they would over one of the PCs. If a regular NPC dies, players take it in stride (unless they were a pattom). They don’t approach the DM after the session to tell them precisely how large and unpleasantly odiferous that particular pile of 🐴💩 happens to be. But after several levels spent in proximity to their PNPC every session, they have approached and told me what a right shite person I was for tha PNPC’s death when the Players felt it was unjustified.
If the blacksmith’s daughter doesn’t survive the rescue from the bandits, players are only upset on account of having been unsuccessful in their mission. I have never had to retcon a normal NPCs death to preserve the Player’s sense of fun in a campaign, I have had to retcon a PNPC death so the players weren’t super upset. (Like table-flipping, controller-throwing upset.) Because they genuinely do start to think of it as “their NPC.”
For me, having that unique designation helps remind me to not treat them the same as “everyone else.” They don’t get treated as a PC because DMPCs are bad, umkay? And they also don’t quite get treated the same as the other NPCs. I have to remember to think of them a little bit different, and I he “title” helps me do that. If anyone wishes to drop that first “P,” and just call them a NPC like everyone else, that’s entirely the prerogative of each individual DM.
*(In fact, they are just as much an expediter from the DM’s perspective. They are a method of implementing DM fiat, aka “handwavium,” without breaking verisimilitude for the Players.)
One quick tip about DMPCS and NPCs- if you need them (duet campaigns, for example) you can always have the players take control of the DMPC/NPC at crucial moments. ‘What do you think so and so should do?’ In a duet, let the player be the clear party leader and make the decisions while at the same time having the DMPCs to support the player. In a normal campaign, have the DMPC/NPC be shy or something and let the players take the stage.
In the end, the campaign belongs to you and your players. If you want DMPCs and your group likes playing with them, that’s fine. If you don’t, don’t play with them.
One could do as you suggest, but I don’t like to prompt them to have the PNPC do anything unless it is a situation in which I am using that character to expedite things to keep the session moving.* Otherwise it’s up to the Players to remember the PNPC is an asset at their disposal, much like their own class features. I don’t remind Players that their Rogue has Sneak Attack, or that their Paladin can Smite. When the DM reminds them stuff like that it comes across as less of a reminder and more of “a suggestion from the DM.” It’s the DM’s job to create challenges for the Players, not to solve said challenges. When the PNPC starts to solve the challenges that’s when the line into DMPC has been crossed.
For example, in the campaign I am currently running the island they are on is honeycombed with labyrinthine caverns. Those caverns are so confusing that any character who go down there can get so unbelievably super lost, they must Sanity checks or suffer the effects of a Short-Term Madness unless they know how to get where they’re going.** That campaign has been going for just shy of a year now, and one of the players finally had the idea to connect as much cordage as they can to leave behind them so they don’t need to worry about it anymore. That was when the PNPC said “you should have asked, I always carry some chalk on me.***” (We are online due to COVID and I could literally hear the facepalm through the speakers.) Most of the time that character doesn’t really say much at all.
*(“Fred says ‘don’t give it another thought, I can take care of that. You all have more important matters that need your attention.’”) **(It’s a Call of Cthulhu inspired campaign. The youths of the community know some of those caverns so they have a place to throw parties and make out without the adults around, and the villains have been on the island for approximately 135-150 years. The Party has only been on the island for 7 days. They have only managed to learn a small portion of one small system.) ***(See what I mean about the DM needing to remember to narrate the PNPC differently than everybody else? That’s why I give them a special designation. Much like WotC had to give Sidekicks a special designation to help all of the Players including the DM to consider them differently. Just like the DM also has their own designation as opposed to just “Player,” and for the exact same reason.)
It just occurred to me that nobody has mentioned these two specific things:
The concept of a “forever DM” is not baked into the game. The simple fact is that DMing is a wackton of work. It also means shouldering at least 50% (at least) of the responsibility to make sure everyone has fun. The DM is generally expected to know the rules better than everyone else, is explicitly responsible for arbitrating any conflicts that arise, and has to plan 3-4 hours of adventure on a weekly basis with only a strong idea of what the players planned to do next session as of the end of the last session. (Players have an atavistic habit of doing the darndest things sometimes.) In addition, the DM is also the person who has to heard the cats coordinate with the other players to keep everyone showing up every week so the campaign doesn’t get cold and die. (That’s the leading cause of campaign death.) in short, most players just don’t want to DM, so those of use who do end up stuck with the chair behind the screen. That trend seems to have increased with every new edition of the game. (Back when I started in 2e, everyone took a small urn as DM at least once. We would either start our own campaigns or else rotate as DM with the same Party. For example, I am not my group’s “main GM,” just one of the alternates. In fact, the party’s current PNPC was my PC when I was in front of the screen instead of behind it.* The former PNPC is the current PC for the guy who is our group’s main DM. In another month or so Ellal will go back to being my PC, and if our main DM decides to keep him around, Akko will go back to being the PNPC.**
The other point I can’t believe nobody thought to mention before now is something called “DM Burnout.” (The third*** leading cause of campaign death.) Remember all that extra work I mentioned? It can be exhausting. The best remedy for burnout is for the DM to pass the screen off to someone else and spend some time as a regular Player who only has to worry about a single PC, and only for about 3-4 hours once a week. If your group only has 1 DM, then there is no way to combat burnout. In my group, only one player (out of the 5-10 bonus hat appear in various campaigns) never GMs, the rest of us all have/do run different campaigns at one point or another. One of them is currently running an alternate campaign for when I am either unavailable to run on any given week, or when one Player is unavailable for a session I prefer nobody misses. He will continue to run that alt campaign after I have handed the screen back to our group’s “main GM.” You will be doing your group a favor by learning to DM. Players outnumber willing DMs by something like 50:1, maybe more. That is not an exaggeration, DMs are in such high demand that some people charge money to run campaigns for strangers who can’t find games.
*(Yet another reason it is so important that I take all available steps to not let him become a DMPC, including adding the “P” to the beginning of “NPC.” Better to do it and not need to; than to not do it if I do need to. The “P” is free, so why not use it?) **(The party has grown from 2 to 4 PCs when a few of the group’s campaigns died from Covid, so he may decide Akko will return to his regularly scheduled stuff and leave the party.) ***(The second leading cause is when the players’ have incompatible styles and they don’t fit well together. Not all tables are a suitable magicitem ch for all players. In fact, for many players there is usually a period of time required to find a table that they fit with well.)
This is excellent advice. Right now there are four of us who are all brand new. We are playing a simple campaign just to get our feet wet in the game. We're playing at a local board game cafe and one of the owners is acting as our DM. We're not really sure what happens after this campaign finishes, but we all know we would like to keep playing. We have at least one more person who is interested in playing and I'm hoping that one of our players is also interested in DMing. I think getting a couple more people in a group is going to make the difference. Thanks for all the info!
You can be player in a campaign and DM in another or even the same! My friends and i did ran a multi-DM campaign where we each had a player character and rotated DMing. When we did, our own PC would be a NPC or DMPC if you prefer.
DM your game and play in the other game. The admonition about DMs not making good players is an extension of the "meta gaming" knowledge which can lead to "back seat DMing." You run your game your way. The DM runs your game their way. Sure you're going to notice differences, and that might be helpful for you as a DM in thinking about your own DMing. But don't use what you know, or think you know, about DMing as a means to challenge or "intervene" when you think the game you're playing in is being done "wrong." Yes, as a player you can question, politely, a DMs ruling or handling. Just don't do it in way that disrupts the game or undermines the DMs running.
If at all possible, I'd recommend playing as a player through an adventure in the other DMs group before establishing yourself as a DM. The reason why I say that as if you actually spend some time as a player, it helps you build your game as DM with actual player perspective in mind. A lot of folks who start out as a DM without player experience build adventures that are more catered to a story the DM wants to tell rather than an adventure that gives players an opportunity to play. It's a subtle thing, but incorporating "player perspective" into the game is something that's often overlooked by starter DMs.
I don't think you have to finish a campaign as a player before you start DMing. Campaigns can go on for years. Some never end. You just need to get some experience under your belt. Maybe get to level 5. And as the campaign you DM goes on, you'll be laying the tracks by continuing to play in your player campaign, learning higher level play.
Oh sure. I didn't mean play through a campaign necessarily. By "adventure" I was talking about the old school module sized ones where you wouldn't even necessarily make level 2 at the end. That said, being a player at the different tiers of play primes your DM insight into the players side of play, so I'd say a DM should play when they can because 1.) playing is fun and 2.) you get that important perspective that will lead to actually informed adventure design for your players. It isn't essential but DMs who get to play as players make better DMs just because their understanding of the game is increased.
I would say if a DM had the opportunity to play in an extended campaign that's important too. Points of reference never doesn't help. There just isn't a sector in life where availing oneself of opportunities to continue learning is a bad idea.
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The “P” stands for “Party,” they are a “Party NPC.”
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I don't think you have to finish a campaign as a player before you start DMing. Campaigns can go on for years. Some never end. You just need to get some experience under your belt. Maybe get to level 5. And as the campaign you DM goes on, you'll be laying the tracks by continuing to play in your player campaign, learning higher level play.
They are an NPC, but a PNPC is unique compared to the rest of the population of the multiverse. Other NPCs don’t tag along with the party on adventures with (as far as the players notice*) the specific intent of being their gofor/PA. Other NPCs don’t take a turn at watch, share personal histories around the campfire, bunk with the Party whenever rooms are acquired at an inn, or share in the Party’s triumphs and tribulations.
The next closest thing would be the three retainers granted as the Knight background’s special Trait. Those are explicitly prohibited from even being narrated as participating in combat other than to run and hide. The players end up developing a different relationship with (and attachment to) a PNPC than they do with any other NPCs. They end up sortakinda treating a PNPC as one of their own.
Believe it or not, I have seen Players get just as upset over the death of a PNPC as they would over one of the PCs. If a regular NPC dies, players take it in stride (unless they were a pattom). They don’t approach the DM after the session to tell them precisely how large and unpleasantly odiferous that particular pile of 🐴💩 happens to be. But after several levels spent in proximity to their PNPC every session, they have approached and told me what a right shite person I was for tha PNPC’s death when the Players felt it was unjustified.
If the blacksmith’s daughter doesn’t survive the rescue from the bandits, players are only upset on account of having been unsuccessful in their mission. I have never had to retcon a normal NPCs death to preserve the Player’s sense of fun in a campaign, I have had to retcon a PNPC death so the players weren’t super upset. (Like table-flipping, controller-throwing upset.) Because they genuinely do start to think of it as “their NPC.”
For me, having that unique designation helps remind me to not treat them the same as “everyone else.” They don’t get treated as a PC because DMPCs are bad, umkay? And they also don’t quite get treated the same as the other NPCs. I have to remember to think of them a little bit different, and I he “title” helps me do that. If anyone wishes to drop that first “P,” and just call them a NPC like everyone else, that’s entirely the prerogative of each individual DM.
*(In fact, they are just as much an expediter from the DM’s perspective. They are a method of implementing DM fiat, aka “handwavium,” without breaking verisimilitude for the Players.)
One could do as you suggest, but I don’t like to prompt them to have the PNPC do anything unless it is a situation in which I am using that character to expedite things to keep the session moving.* Otherwise it’s up to the Players to remember the PNPC is an asset at their disposal, much like their own class features. I don’t remind Players that their Rogue has Sneak Attack, or that their Paladin can Smite. When the DM reminds them stuff like that it comes across as less of a reminder and more of “a suggestion from the DM.” It’s the DM’s job to create challenges for the Players, not to solve said challenges. When the PNPC starts to solve the challenges that’s when the line into DMPC has been crossed.
For example, in the campaign I am currently running the island they are on is honeycombed with labyrinthine caverns. Those caverns are so confusing that any character who go down there can get so unbelievably super lost, they must Sanity checks or suffer the effects of a Short-Term Madness unless they know how to get where they’re going.** That campaign has been going for just shy of a year now, and one of the players finally had the idea to connect as much cordage as they can to leave behind them so they don’t need to worry about it anymore. That was when the PNPC said “you should have asked, I always carry some chalk on me.***” (We are online due to COVID and I could literally hear the facepalm through the speakers.) Most of the time that character doesn’t really say much at all.
*(“Fred says ‘don’t give it another thought, I can take care of that. You all have more important matters that need your attention.’”)
**(It’s a Call of Cthulhu inspired campaign. The youths of the community know some of those caverns so they have a place to throw parties and make out without the adults around, and the villains have been on the island for approximately 135-150 years. The Party has only been on the island for 7 days. They have only managed to learn a small portion of one small system.)
***(See what I mean about the DM needing to remember to narrate the PNPC differently than everybody else? That’s why I give them a special designation. Much like WotC had to give Sidekicks a special designation to help all of the Players including the DM to consider them differently. Just like the DM also has their own designation as opposed to just “Player,” and for the exact same reason.)
Edit: Broken tooltip, typo.
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It just occurred to me that nobody has mentioned these two specific things:
heard the catscoordinate with the other players to keep everyone showing up every week so the campaign doesn’t get cold and die. (That’s the leading cause of campaign death.) in short, most players just don’t want to DM, so those of use who do end up stuck with the chair behind the screen.That trend seems to have increased with every new edition of the game. (Back when I started in 2e, everyone took a small urn as DM at least once. We would either start our own campaigns or else rotate as DM with the same Party. For example, I am not my group’s “main GM,” just one of the alternates. In fact, the party’s current PNPC was my PC when I was in front of the screen instead of behind it.* The former PNPC is the current PC for the guy who is our group’s main DM. In another month or so Ellal will go back to being my PC, and if our main DM decides to keep him around, Akko will go back to being the PNPC.**
One of them is currently running an alternate campaign for when I am either unavailable to run on any given week, or when one Player is unavailable for a session I prefer nobody misses. He will continue to run that alt campaign after I have handed the screen back to our group’s “main GM.” You will be doing your group a favor by learning to DM. Players outnumber willing DMs by something like 50:1, maybe more. That is not an exaggeration, DMs are in such high demand that some people charge money to run campaigns for strangers who can’t find games.
*(Yet another reason it is so important that I take all available steps to not let him become a DMPC, including adding the “P” to the beginning of “NPC.” Better to do it and not need to; than to not do it if I do need to. The “P” is free, so why not use it?)
**(The party has grown from 2 to 4 PCs when a few of the group’s campaigns died from Covid, so he may decide Akko will return to his regularly scheduled stuff and leave the party.)
***(The second leading cause is when the players’ have incompatible styles and they don’t fit well together. Not all tables are a suitable magicitem ch for all players. In fact, for many players there is usually a period of time required to find a table that they fit with well.)
Edits: Formatting, typos.
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This is excellent advice. Right now there are four of us who are all brand new. We are playing a simple campaign just to get our feet wet in the game. We're playing at a local board game cafe and one of the owners is acting as our DM. We're not really sure what happens after this campaign finishes, but we all know we would like to keep playing. We have at least one more person who is interested in playing and I'm hoping that one of our players is also interested in DMing. I think getting a couple more people in a group is going to make the difference. Thanks for all the info!
You can be player in a campaign and DM in another or even the same! My friends and i did ran a multi-DM campaign where we each had a player character and rotated DMing. When we did, our own PC would be a NPC or DMPC if you prefer.
Oh sure. I didn't mean play through a campaign necessarily. By "adventure" I was talking about the old school module sized ones where you wouldn't even necessarily make level 2 at the end. That said, being a player at the different tiers of play primes your DM insight into the players side of play, so I'd say a DM should play when they can because 1.) playing is fun and 2.) you get that important perspective that will lead to actually informed adventure design for your players. It isn't essential but DMs who get to play as players make better DMs just because their understanding of the game is increased.
I would say if a DM had the opportunity to play in an extended campaign that's important too. Points of reference never doesn't help. There just isn't a sector in life where availing oneself of opportunities to continue learning is a bad idea.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.