I'm new to D&D 5e and tabletop RPGs in general. I've been playing some D&D with my friends for about 2 months now. I'm going to be Dungeon Mastering my first game with my three friends. I've chosen the Sunless Citadel from the yawning portal book, because I hear that it's a good first module for a Newb DMs. However, there's only the 4 of us and the beginning of the module says it's for 4 or 5 first level characters. I'm concerned about the difficulty level with only 3 first level characters. Where trying our best to balance out the party. Right now, the character's are going to be a gnome rogue, a human Paladin(for tanking and healing) and some sort of DPS(possibly a Wizard).
I know I could make second or third level characters but that feels like jumping ahead on the D&D experience. Besides, I might want to run the other modules in the yawning portal book and I've heard they can go one after the other, at least character level wise. I could also give my character's elite abilities or equipment but that feels a little like cheating to me. No judgement on anybody who has done that but I just don't feel like doing that with my adventure.
I have a work around that I'm considering. Make 3 elite characters using the customizing ability scores variant on page 13 of the Player's Handbook, except instead of using 27 points to pay for ability score upgrades, use 36. I got 36 per player by taking all the points that a 4 player team would use and distributing them between 3 players(27*4=108 then 108/3=36). Yes, I realize that could also go under cheating but no judgement on the internet. Right?
Right???
I might just have us simply roll up 3 regular 1st level characters and tell my friends that they need to be on their toes and then I do my best to be on my toes, adjusting the amount of monsters and their abilities. This might make a more intense and enjoyable game, maybe.
I"m hoping to get some Wisdom from other players and Dungeon Master's, especially those who have played or ran the Sunless Citadel before. More specifically advice on
Party Balancing
my elite character idea
any other work-arounds that I might not have thought about.
and any tips really, especially on running the Sunless Citadel Module
Any advice is welcome and greatly appreciated, Thank You
I'm not overly familiar with the adventure so cant really go into specifics.
Some general ones though.
Typically speaking though where you have multiple enemies you can reduce their numbers by about 25-30%, as your group is about a similar percentage smaller than what is recommended (likely what I would do). It is always a bit of a balancing act anyway, that generally comes with experience to do it well. Even very experienced DMs still make mistakes so try not to be too bothered by making some here and there (and you will make them). I you find the group is taking more damage than wanted you can always throw in an extra healing potion into enemy loot here and there to help keep the players healthy too (or give them a few from the start).
With newer players I tend to err on the weaker side of things as they generally have their minds more on learning the system than tactics, so don't worry if they plow through battles to begin with (it can be fun to just smash monsters to start with too). Even if you go so far as to halve enemy numbers, that can give you an idea for later encounters how it may work with adding more enemies as you go. Sometimes adding an additional encounter here and there (or enemies joining the fight later on) can work too, it doesn't offer an immediate threat like a larger group of enemies does, but still uses up a few resources.
As to increasing the point's players have for purchasing (or your elite squad) that will generally only mean their stats are 1-2 points higher than the default 27 points, but still have the cap of 15 (unless you are going over that too), thus not really making a huge difference but would likely go to increasing their lower or mid tier ability scores. This can work if you like more 'dam big' heroes than 'everyday' heroes.
An alternative could be have them start as second level characters as well, this makes them a bit more robust, and gives them a few more tools to play with.
When I started DMing and our group was three but the adventure was designed for 4-5, two of our players played two characters. It has its drawbacks, but it has worked ok for us. Now that I'm more comfortable DMing, I'd probably just adjust encounters unless I had players excited about playing 2 characters and I thought they could handle it. In one game, I have a DMPC to help balance. But I am careful to keep her out of the limelight and to let the players take the lead.
There was a Google word doc that was done by someone who put in scaling for The Sunless Citadel in line with AL (Adventurer's League) scaling for average party level.
(okay after trying to figure out where it was, realised I made a copy - this isn't mine, if I can find where it was originally posted, I'll update with a link) The Sunless Citadel Encounter Edits
I'm not overly familiar with the adventure so cant really go into specifics.
Some general ones though.
Typically speaking though where you have multiple enemies you can reduce their numbers by about 25-30%, as your group is about a similar percentage smaller than what is recommended (likely what I would do). It is always a bit of a balancing act anyway, that generally comes with experience to do it well. Even very experienced DMs still make mistakes so try not to be too bothered by making some here and there (and you will make them). I you find the group is taking more damage than wanted you can always throw in an extra healing potion into enemy loot here and there to help keep the players healthy too (or give them a few from the start).
With newer players I tend to err on the weaker side of things as they generally have their minds more on learning the system than tactics, so don't worry if they plow through battles to begin with (it can be fun to just smash monsters to start with too). Even if you go so far as to halve enemy numbers, that can give you an idea for later encounters how it may work with adding more enemies as you go. Sometimes adding an additional encounter here and there (or enemies joining the fight later on) can work too, it doesn't offer an immediate threat like a larger group of enemies does, but still uses up a few resources.
As to increasing the point's players have for purchasing (or your elite squad) that will generally only mean their stats are 1-2 points higher than the default 27 points, but still have the cap of 15 (unless you are going over that too), thus not really making a huge difference but would likely go to increasing their lower or mid tier ability scores. This can work if you like more 'dam big' heroes than 'everyday' heroes.
An alternative could be have them start as second level characters as well, this makes them a bit more robust, and gives them a few more tools to play with.
I hope that helps some. Good luck.
the 25-30% sound like a good rule of thumb. The encounter's at least in the first areas don't seem like they would wipe the party out. I probably just need to keep an eye on the characters and if they start to get ground down throw some help their way.
Two of the players are more experienced then me and the other one is a little less experienced then me.
Yea, I forgot to mention the cap of 15. If I go with my elite option, I"ll have to extend that at least a little.
When I started DMing and our group was three but the adventure was designed for 4-5, two of our players played two characters. It has its drawbacks, but it has worked ok for us. Now that I'm more comfortable DMing, I'd probably just adjust encounters unless I had players excited about playing 2 characters and I thought they could handle it. In one game, I have a DMPC to help balance. But I am careful to keep her out of the limelight and to let the players take the lead.
If things start going badly I might consider asking if any of them might want to play a second character. thanks
There was a Google word doc that was done by someone who put in scaling for The Sunless Citadel in line with AL (Adventurer's League) scaling for average party level.
(okay after trying to figure out where it was, realised I made a copy - this isn't mine, if I can find where it was originally posted, I'll update with a link) The Sunless Citadel Encounter Edits
I’ve DMed through the first level with one friend playing a solo character. I had to tone down most of the encounters and eventually he got a kobold npc helper, but he still has come close to dying a couple of times. My friend is an experienced player though and knows when to run 😁.
I would say 3 new players is doable as long as you make the encounters a little easier as some of the above comments suggested. But also make sure they know a tactical retreat is sometimes a good idea.
A good rule of thumb for being the DM: if things are going bad for the players fudge things. Just because you roll a hit or critical hit doesn't mean you have to keep the roll and damage. Same goes for if things are too easy for the players, buff the fight with reinforcements or if you are rolling bad do the opposite and turn that miss into a hit.
Same kind of thing with noncombat. If you really want the players to discover something gated by a roll you don't have to accept a failed roll. You can even provide hints or advantages if one or more players get creative in trying to win a fight or figure out a puzzle etc.
Keep in mind, PC’s don’t “win” every encounter and they shouldn’t either. Plus not every encounter is a combat encounter. One of my PCs who is very socially awkward went off by himself in town recently and he failed completely at one social encounter and kind of failed at another one too, although not nearly as badly. In another campaign our third level party ran into a troll and we wisely fled without engaging it.
Part of the challenge that the players face is determining when to cut their losses and run.
One thought on the party balance with your Paladin being both the tank and the healer if something takes down the paladin the rest of the part is going to be in trouble and they will have no way to heal the paladin. A few bad dice rolls and the paladin is dead you probably need some sort of healing beyond just the paladin.
You could have the players get a few healing potions from the Temple of Pelor in town for emergency usage either as a gift or as incentive to also rescue the missing paladin. You could send an acolyte with them (similar to Erky Timbers) who only knows a couple of healing spells and is otherwise useless in combat. Have the acolyte stick with the party until they rescue Erky and then have them go home.
As others have said reducing the monster count by 25-30% percent is also a good option. I am running sunless citadel with a party of 4 players that are pretty experienced with Pathfinder but not 5e and a group of 3 skeletons or 3 rats can be a problem if they get lucky rolls.
Personally I would not level them up to 2 or 3, for me at least part of the fun of the game is the sense of peril. Yes it can be fun to cleave through enemies feeling invincible but for new players that sense of peril can encourage them to be cautious and learn some of the fundamentals.
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I'm new to D&D 5e and tabletop RPGs in general. I've been playing some D&D with my friends for about 2 months now. I'm going to be Dungeon Mastering my first game with my three friends. I've chosen the Sunless Citadel from the yawning portal book, because I hear that it's a good first module for a Newb DMs. However, there's only the 4 of us and the beginning of the module says it's for 4 or 5 first level characters. I'm concerned about the difficulty level with only 3 first level characters. Where trying our best to balance out the party. Right now, the character's are going to be a gnome rogue, a human Paladin(for tanking and healing) and some sort of DPS(possibly a Wizard).
I know I could make second or third level characters but that feels like jumping ahead on the D&D experience. Besides, I might want to run the other modules in the yawning portal book and I've heard they can go one after the other, at least character level wise. I could also give my character's elite abilities or equipment but that feels a little like cheating to me. No judgement on anybody who has done that but I just don't feel like doing that with my adventure.
I have a work around that I'm considering. Make 3 elite characters using the customizing ability scores variant on page 13 of the Player's Handbook, except instead of using 27 points to pay for ability score upgrades, use 36. I got 36 per player by taking all the points that a 4 player team would use and distributing them between 3 players(27*4=108 then 108/3=36). Yes, I realize that could also go under cheating but no judgement on the internet. Right?
Right???
I might just have us simply roll up 3 regular 1st level characters and tell my friends that they need to be on their toes and then I do my best to be on my toes, adjusting the amount of monsters and their abilities. This might make a more intense and enjoyable game, maybe.
I"m hoping to get some Wisdom from other players and Dungeon Master's, especially those who have played or ran the Sunless Citadel before. More specifically advice on
Any advice is welcome and greatly appreciated, Thank You
Honzolo
I'm not overly familiar with the adventure so cant really go into specifics.
Some general ones though.
Typically speaking though where you have multiple enemies you can reduce their numbers by about 25-30%, as your group is about a similar percentage smaller than what is recommended (likely what I would do). It is always a bit of a balancing act anyway, that generally comes with experience to do it well.
Even very experienced DMs still make mistakes so try not to be too bothered by making some here and there (and you will make them). I you find the group is taking more damage than wanted you can always throw in an extra healing potion into enemy loot here and there to help keep the players healthy too (or give them a few from the start).
With newer players I tend to err on the weaker side of things as they generally have their minds more on learning the system than tactics, so don't worry if they plow through battles to begin with (it can be fun to just smash monsters to start with too). Even if you go so far as to halve enemy numbers, that can give you an idea for later encounters how it may work with adding more enemies as you go.
Sometimes adding an additional encounter here and there (or enemies joining the fight later on) can work too, it doesn't offer an immediate threat like a larger group of enemies does, but still uses up a few resources.
As to increasing the point's players have for purchasing (or your elite squad) that will generally only mean their stats are 1-2 points higher than the default 27 points, but still have the cap of 15 (unless you are going over that too), thus not really making a huge difference but would likely go to increasing their lower or mid tier ability scores. This can work if you like more 'dam big' heroes than 'everyday' heroes.
An alternative could be have them start as second level characters as well, this makes them a bit more robust, and gives them a few more tools to play with.
I hope that helps some. Good luck.
- Loswaith
When I started DMing and our group was three but the adventure was designed for 4-5, two of our players played two characters. It has its drawbacks, but it has worked ok for us. Now that I'm more comfortable DMing, I'd probably just adjust encounters unless I had players excited about playing 2 characters and I thought they could handle it. In one game, I have a DMPC to help balance. But I am careful to keep her out of the limelight and to let the players take the lead.
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There was a Google word doc that was done by someone who put in scaling for The Sunless Citadel in line with AL (Adventurer's League) scaling for average party level.
(okay after trying to figure out where it was, realised I made a copy - this isn't mine, if I can find where it was originally posted, I'll update with a link) The Sunless Citadel Encounter Edits
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the 25-30% sound like a good rule of thumb. The encounter's at least in the first areas don't seem like they would wipe the party out. I probably just need to keep an eye on the characters and if they start to get ground down throw some help their way.
Two of the players are more experienced then me and the other one is a little less experienced then me.
Yea, I forgot to mention the cap of 15. If I go with my elite option, I"ll have to extend that at least a little.
It does help thank you
You could always roll up a character and have it join the party as an NPC.
I’ve DMed through the first level with one friend playing a solo character. I had to tone down most of the encounters and eventually he got a kobold npc helper, but he still has come close to dying a couple of times. My friend is an experienced player though and knows when to run 😁.
I would say 3 new players is doable as long as you make the encounters a little easier as some of the above comments suggested. But also make sure they know a tactical retreat is sometimes a good idea.
A good rule of thumb for being the DM: if things are going bad for the players fudge things. Just because you roll a hit or critical hit doesn't mean you have to keep the roll and damage. Same goes for if things are too easy for the players, buff the fight with reinforcements or if you are rolling bad do the opposite and turn that miss into a hit.
Same kind of thing with noncombat. If you really want the players to discover something gated by a roll you don't have to accept a failed roll. You can even provide hints or advantages if one or more players get creative in trying to win a fight or figure out a puzzle etc.
Keep in mind, PC’s don’t “win” every encounter and they shouldn’t either. Plus not every encounter is a combat encounter. One of my PCs who is very socially awkward went off by himself in town recently and he failed completely at one social encounter and kind of failed at another one too, although not nearly as badly. In another campaign our third level party ran into a troll and we wisely fled without engaging it.
Part of the challenge that the players face is determining when to cut their losses and run.
Professional computer geek
One thought on the party balance with your Paladin being both the tank and the healer if something takes down the paladin the rest of the part is going to be in trouble and they will have no way to heal the paladin. A few bad dice rolls and the paladin is dead you probably need some sort of healing beyond just the paladin.
You could have the players get a few healing potions from the Temple of Pelor in town for emergency usage either as a gift or as incentive to also rescue the missing paladin. You could send an acolyte with them (similar to Erky Timbers) who only knows a couple of healing spells and is otherwise useless in combat. Have the acolyte stick with the party until they rescue Erky and then have them go home.
As others have said reducing the monster count by 25-30% percent is also a good option. I am running sunless citadel with a party of 4 players that are pretty experienced with Pathfinder but not 5e and a group of 3 skeletons or 3 rats can be a problem if they get lucky rolls.
Personally I would not level them up to 2 or 3, for me at least part of the fun of the game is the sense of peril. Yes it can be fun to cleave through enemies feeling invincible but for new players that sense of peril can encourage them to be cautious and learn some of the fundamentals.